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Quick story question regarding "Champions" (Spoilers)


BrotherofShadows.7426

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@EdwinLi.1284 said:There are vast amount of land and probably civilizations we have yet to meet and some may have new Gods and Goddesses we have never seen before.

Would be neat if we finally got to see some decent evidence to the existence of gods outside of the Six. Spirits of the Wild don't really count, but Koda and Zintl (among others) could make an appearance once the Elder Dragons aren't threatening to gobble them up.

For good or ill.

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@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:Hard disagree. I know you're really strong feeling towards your theory of Lyssa's involvement because of purpose mist in the trailer,The purple mist has little to nothing to do with why I suspect Lyssa involvement. It has more to do with it just making sense.

Lyssa was stated back in the Orrian history scrolls the be the one most connected with mortals. So much so the other gods pretty much forcibly dragged her into Arah once it was complete. Balthazar not cursing Lyssa's name, and the fact he was using an artifact of Lyssa to disguise himself as Lazarus, implies she was helping him. Either directly or indirectly.

If Lyssa doesn't show up with some plan to defeat the last dragon, or at least help fix the balance once they are all dead, then what is the purpose of the set up at all? If she doesn't care about the 6 literal world destroying, god-tier, Elder Dragons threatening the mortals, then what does she care about? The same goes for if not Cantha then where else? why would she just be twiddling her thumbs off in BFE instead of being in, or near, humans lands to help the humans?

There's also the topic of Menzies, who could serve as a major antagonist, and hell if ANet wanted, they could even make Desmina an antagonist or bring back Dhuum again. Plenty of plot potential present among god material.Hasn't it been largely implied that Menzies is dead? And Desmina seemed truly loyal to Grenth's ideals. Having her go evil, or have Dhuum come back, just kinda defeats the purpose of the Hall of Chains raid.

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@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@EdwinLi.1284 said:There are vast amount of land and probably civilizations we have yet to meet and some may have new Gods and Goddesses we have never seen before.

Would be neat if we finally got to see some decent evidence to the existence of gods outside of the Six. Spirits of the Wild don't really count, but Koda and Zintl (among others) could make an appearance once the Elder Dragons aren't threatening to gobble them up.

For good or ill.

It will also open up a lot of potential lore for new Elite Specs as well due to how different the new civilizations may have developed their knowledge with each Profession.

Part of Elite Spec's developement now is their lore being tied into lore we already know about in a certain way which is why there are expectation within the community for what can and cannot happen for X or Y Elite Spec.

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@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:Hard disagree. I know you're really strong feeling towards your theory of Lyssa's involvement because of purpose mist in the trailer,The purple mist has little to nothing to do with why I suspect Lyssa involvement. It has more to do with it just making sense.

Lyssa was stated back in the Orrian history scrolls the be the one most connected with mortals. So much so the other gods pretty much forcibly dragged her into Arah once it was complete. Balthazar not cursing Lyssa's name, and the fact he was using an artifact of Lyssa to disguise himself as Lazarus, implies she was helping him. Either directly or indirectly.

If Lyssa doesn't show up with some plan to defeat the last dragon, or at least help fix the balance once they are all dead, then what is the purpose of the set up at all? If she doesn't care about the 6 literal world destroying, god-tier, Elder Dragons threatening the mortals, then what does she care about? The same goes for if not Cantha then where else? why would she just be twiddling her thumbs off in BFE instead of being in, or near, humans lands to help the humans?

The major flaw in your argument is twofold:

1) It was Kormir, not Lyssa, who kept assisting humans after GW1, and Lyssa was mocking Kormir for this.

2) Killing Elder Dragons endangers the very Tyrians you proclaim she'd be wanting to protect. So helping Balthazar would hinder her own plans there.

I don't think the ancient history of 1,000 years ago has anything to do with the Lyssa hints in PoF, as PoF firmly establishes that the gods grow increasingly distant from mortals over time; and it's pretty heavily implied Balthazar got the Mirror of Lyssa from the Orrian reliquaries - her own aid would be irrelevant, either directly or indirectly - by the fact that he arrived and hid the aspect of Lazarus without a disguise, but left with a disguise.

The set up is much more strongly establishing Lyssa as a possible future villain, not some "I will help mortals even if the other gods won't" figure. Or Kormir, if my theory is accurate.

Hasn't it been largely implied that Menzies is dead? And Desmina seemed truly loyal to Grenth's ideals. Having her go evil, or have Dhuum come back, just kinda defeats the purpose of the Hall of Chains raid.There hasn't actually been a strong implication one way or the other about Menzies' fate. People take the two weapons as "heavy implication" but ultimately, they're not. The best we have is that Balthazar was bored of no conflict - but the very same source says Balthazar has been idle since Abaddon rebelled just before the Exodus, thus discrediting Menzies' existence entirely with that statement (whether intentional or not is hard to tell because ANet devs tend to forget obvious things sometimes).

As to Desmina, I'm not so sure. Her final lines in the raid were very ominous to me, and her actions very questionable - not very "justice is equal for all" that is Grenth.

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Jormag: I'm not the real threat.Also Jormag: Hi, I'm not the threat, here.Jormag Again: Oh hi, I know you want to murder me and my kids for some reason that seems to stem from simple-minded black & white prejudice, but I'm not the threat.Jormag, Once Again: There's an actual threat that lurks just over the horizon and it isn't me.Claw of Jormag: I'm scared of you but please don't kill my mom.Jormag, Again Again: So, you may not have noticed but I don't want to fight you. A world-ending threat is knocking at your door.Hello this is Jormag, Again: Right, look, my brother is about to awaken and he's going to make a lot of fiery explosions happen and a lot of people are going to be very dead.Yes... Jormag Again: Will. You. People. Listen. Your inaction and tilting at icy windmills will result in so much d—Oh, too late. Here are the destroyers. I bloody tried to warn you.

Honestly, I don't think that Primordus was any kind of surprise. Jormag has been telling us that this would happen since the beginning of the Icebrood Saga. It's just that the Commander is a bit dim. "WHAT DO YOU MEAN I SHOULDN'T LOUDLY ANNOUNCE THAT YOU'RE A SPY NEXT TO A BUNCH OF JOKO GUARDS?" (I'll never let that go.)

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You kind of left out the parts where the certainly-not-a-threat-Jormag attacked, manipulated and killed our allies, multiple times. During IBS, in between telling us to please not mind them.Primordus being a threat as well does not mean we were wrong about Jormag.

Actually I'm kind of uncertain if Primordus is even really waking up. I mean, those destroyers seem a little fake, don't they? Since when are Primordus' destroyers vulnerable to burning?

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@"Hypnowulf.7403" said:Jormag: I'm not the real threat.Also Jormag: Hi, I'm not the threat, here.Jormag Again: Oh hi, I know you want to murder me and my kids for some reason that seems to stem from simple-minded black & white prejudice, but I'm not the threat.Jormag, Once Again: There's an actual threat that lurks just over the horizon and it isn't me.Claw of Jormag: I'm scared of you but please don't kill my mom.Jormag, Again Again: So, you may not have noticed but I don't want to fight you. A world-ending threat is knocking at your door.Hello this is Jormag, Again: Right, look, my brother is about to awaken and he's going to make a lot of fiery explosions happen and a lot of people are going to be very dead.Yes... Jormag Again: Will. You. People. Listen. Your inaction and tilting at icy windmills will result in so much d—Oh, too late. Here are the destroyers. I bloody tried to warn you.

Honestly, I don't think that Primordus was any kind of surprise. Jormag has been telling us that this would happen since the beginning of the Icebrood Saga. It's just that the Commander is a bit dim. "WHAT DO YOU MEAN I SHOULDN'T LOUDLY ANNOUNCE THAT YOU'RE A SPY NEXT TO A BUNCH OF JOKO GUARDS?" (I'll never let that go.)

More accurately:

Bangar: Imma get me a dragon!Icebrood: ME THREAT!Sons of Svanir leader: KILL FOR JORMAG DEMANDS THEIR BLOOD!Jormag: Hello, I'm not the real threat.Drakkar, champion of Jormag: Go and kill each other please~Bangar: Imma get me a dragon!Jormag: Hello again, I'm not the real threat here.Bangar: Now I have an army! Get me a dragon!Jormag: Hello, let me just corrupt your entire people. Sweet, thank you. Oh, ps, I'm not a threat.

Jormag has been talking about not being a threat, but all of its minions and actions have been pretty damn threatening. I mean, sure, Primordus wasn't a surprise - but because of Season 3 which explicitly called them each others' weaknesses. But Jormag has a long history of not being trustworthy.

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Jormag has been talking about not being a threat, but all of its minions and actions have been pretty kitten threatening. I mean, sure, Primordus wasn't a surprise - but because of Season 3 which explicitly called them each others' weaknesses. But Jormag has a long history of not being trustworthy.

Strategy wise its better to lose the battle to win the war. We should have gone straight to Jormag and killed it and let whatever burn, burn. Primordus is the red herring Jormag keeps deflecting to IMO. Now we have 2 Elder dragons to contend with, Aurene spread thin and once we use all our energy and resources to quell Primordus, Jormag will probly swoop in like we expect it to for "our own good" and commence covering Tyria in ice to preserve it.

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With respect to the Dominion forces having the power of the lost spirits:

It's subtle, but if you pay attention to the dialogue from the lost spirits in the Jormag Rising chapter, they're still corrupted. Performing the tasks reminds them of what they should be long enough for them to hold off Jormag's influence and assist you (or Braham), but they know that it's only a brief respite and they're going to succumb again soon. Maybe not several times a day as the shrine events in Bjora imply, but certainly soon enough.

So that's where the Dominion forces are likely getting their essence from. Despite the PC getting the Lost Spirits to act against Jormag for brief periods (or are they really? Seems everything up to now has been a Just As Planned from Jormag's perspective), they're still Jormag's thralls most of the time, with nothing stopping them from being used to empower Bangar's forces. Likely with these blessings being withheld from ex-Flame Legion Dominion because Jormag doesn't want to empower fire magic users until they're willing to switch to Frost.

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@"HotDelirium.7984" said:

Jormag has been talking about not being a threat, but all of its minions and actions have been pretty kitten threatening. I mean, sure, Primordus wasn't a surprise - but because of Season 3 which explicitly called them each others' weaknesses. But Jormag has a
long
history of not being trustworthy.

Strategy wise its better to lose the battle to win the war. We should have gone straight to Jormag and killed it and let whatever burn, burn. Primordus is the red herring Jormag keeps deflecting to IMO. Now we have 2 Elder dragons to contend with, Aurene spread thin and once we use all our energy and resources to quell Primordus, Jormag will probly swoop in like we expect it to for "our own good" and commence covering Tyria in ice to preserve it.

I think there is a degree to which, if you can only be sure about getting one down, Primordus is the one to take out for the time being. Jormag's triggered enough psychological abuse flags this episode that I think they're going to end up as a different flavour of villain rather than an antihero by the end, but there is at least still the possibility that Jormag might be willing to accept some level of coexistence. Primordus, by comparison, has always been purely about destruction.

We may find out, at some point, that there's some complicating factor where Primordus is concerned as well, but at the moment it's a choice between someone you can't trust, and someone you're pretty sure is planning mass destruction. Ideally you'd neutralise both, but accepting the risk of working with the first beats the world being destroyed.

Could also be interesting if it turns out that what's actually going on is that Jormag and Primordus are actually one entity split into two opposite but equally malicious extremes, and what we actually need to do is find some way to merge them without killing them to bring them back into balance. Jormag is an emotionless sociopath and Primordus is the unrestrained id, but if combined they might form a balanced entity.

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Could also be interesting if it turns out that what's actually going on is that Jormag and Primordus are actually one entity split into two opposite but equally malicious extremes, and what we actually need to do is find some way to merge them without killing them to bring them back into balance. Jormag is an emotionless sociopath and Primordus is the unrestrained id, but if combined they might form a balanced entity.

We all thought until the last instance that Kralk was nothing but pure branded destruction- just cause- and then we find out why (mother?) so I'm confident we will be getting more explanation on everything...even if it is in the last instance again. Jormag is actually Koda or Prim is actually slightly more intelligent and is working with his twin - I see it coming-Braham sensing the destroyers? Something is on its way. Just wish the content gave this epic game enough platform to showcase it all.

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@draxynnic.3719 said:Could also be interesting if it turns out that what's actually going on is that Jormag and Primordus are actually one entity split into two opposite but equally malicious extremes, and what we actually need to do is find some way to merge them without killing them to bring them back into balance. Jormag is an emotionless sociopath and Primordus is the unrestrained id, but if combined they might form a balanced entity.

Now that, that would be fascinating. I mean, its not likely because Anet, but its certainly an idea I could get behind. And certainly better than the fanfiction style head-cannon that folks like Hypnowulf and Stephen come up with.

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  • 3 weeks later...

now hat i think about it, balthazar being bored, while we still have menzies, make speople think menzies is dead, but isnt the FOW kinda like an eternal game of chess, and balthazar got bored with that as he wanted a real battle, seeing that kralkatorirk's chunk of the FOW also toom some shadow army,the shadow army isnt gone, make sme think that eternal game of FOW chess hasnt ended, it just got boring.

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