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Some thoughts on possible EoD elite specs


Ryo.5824

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@"ugrakarma.9416" said:i dont have much preferences, just hope more "thematic" and lore wise.

even after hot and pof, i had feel that specs is just a pure randoness imagination disconnected from the tyria world.

Well, that's at least partially true I guess. To be fair to Arenanet (an odd statement coming from me) they are thinking about mechanics before they are about lore, which is how it should be. Especs have to fill a game play need first and foremost and a thematics one secondarily. That said I think at least a few of the existing especs are decently thematically designed, in my opinion of course. Reapers, Druids, Spellbreaker, and Chronomancers being the strongest examples, again, in my opinion.

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@"ugrakarma.9416" said:i dont have much preferences, just hope more "thematic" and lore wise.

even after hot and pof, i had feel that specs is just a pure randoness imagination disconnected from the tyria world.

I feel like they definitely have a trend or general style that they wanna keep for each class tho

@The Greyhawk.9107 said:As Aerick pointed out, the hammer and pet build in GW1 synergized really well with how Rangers and the dual class system worked in that game. You should give it a try, GW1 is still live, I still pop in now and then. Can't say I'd know what kind of utilities to make, too far outside my wheelhouse.

probs not gw2 is a lot to play already xD i have level 80 characters w/ 8% map completion and i probs wana increase that somehow

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My general thoughts:

Warrior: Warriors currently have a DPS-oriented spec (berserker) and a tanky/disruption oriented spec (spellbreaker). I think there's room for a 'troop commander' type spec oriented towards support. Such a spec would probably need to be balanced with the knowledge that banners are a form of support that warriors are already in high demand for, but it could be interesting to see warriors being able to take roles that are more 'banners with some additional support' than the current 'banners with an otherwise DPS-oriented build' approach. Possibly even with the potential for the warrior to forego banners to really double down on support: there's no need for warriors to be permanently limited to one per raid squad, after all.

Guardian: Like many people, I'm hoping that Almorra might be a sign of things to come. Guardian builds at the moment are largely focused around dishing out damage in an area, and their duelling potential generally just comes from trying to keep their opponent trapped in field of bad. That aspect will probably never go away since a lot of it is coming from the core profession, but it'd be nice to see a spec that leans more towards 1v1 than throwing out lots of AoE.

Revenant: This has been several topics on its own, but my inclination here is to point towards possible candidates for legends. Between norn, asura, and Canthan legends (and I'd personally prefer one of the first two, since there's already a Canthan legend and revenant isn't supposed to be a heavily Canthan-influenced profession), there's plenty of possible sources. One thing I definitely will say, however, is this: Renegade is already the closest thing you've going to get to ritualist on a revenant base, stop asking. Part of what made ritualist special is the customisability and interplay between wildly different skill types. You're NEVER going to get a satisfying ritualist substitute on a profession that buys its elite skills in packs of five, and which is always going to be expected to spend about half its time using a core legend. Want a ritualist? Find the core profession that requires the least additional skills to resemble a ritualist, and give it an elite specialisation that covers the rest.

Ranger: I'm a little light on ranger ideas at the moment, but I am inclined to echo the idea of bringing the bunny thumper back. Possibly something similar to the scrapper and spellbreaker in being something that specialises more on durability and disruption than in straight DPS, since soulbeast seems to be the DPS option for both power and conditions.

Thief: As much as I know some people don't like it, I think a return to Cantha is an opportunity to pull in the full breadth of magical capabilities that were available to the GW1 assassin. Time for a new weapon that can use the dual wield skill mechanic, and I think the weapon to do that is focus. This could possibly be an option to make support thief something that is no longer a meme. While I know some people prefer to keep magic out of the Thief (even if that horse clearly bolted with the core game...), I think one elite specialisation that focuses on this side of the thief is a reasonable compromise. Daredevil already focuses on the physical side, and deadeye is something of a hybrid, albeit one that focuses on ranged combat.

Engineer: While it's not the concept I'm personally most excited for, I think the plague doctor/apothecary concept floating around is a good fit for a Canthan expansion, and would provide an elite specialisation that can really bring the support engineer build together (albeit while giving up some of the things that support scrapper currently uses).

Mesmer: An elite spec bringing back old phantasms would be nice. There's precedent for stuff taken out of the core profession being returned through an elite specialisation (guardian tomes being the clearest example), and since the phantasm rework happened shortly after PoF released, that's not something they've had a chance to do yet. One thing they would need to do is find a solution for the problem of being disincentivised to use illusion-summoning skills once the phantasms are out.

Necromancer: Personally, this is where I'd put any elite specialisation aimed at recreating the Ritualist. Necromancers already have minions and skills that allow them to drop party support or damage in an area, so they already somewhat replicate attack spirits and aura spirits. This leaves urns and weapon spells. One of these could possibly come through spending life force, while the other could come through utility skills. Anything other than necromancer, engineer, elementalist or ranger, you would need to have summons to fill the utility slots to make something ritualist-esque, and that wouldn't leave much opportunity for other ritualist capabilities. Putting that aside (or, perhaps, making the argument that scourge shades were already the necromancer's bite at that particular apple), the big thing necromancer seems to be missing is a DPS spec that does well in organised play. Reaper is great as a self-sufficient open-world and sPvP spec, but because it achieves that through being able to self-buff a lot, it tends to suffer in organised groups with dedicated support roles.

Elementalist: Like ranger, I'm a little light on ideas for the elementalist. What we've had so far, though, is a support spec with a secondary role in PBAoE damage, and a melee damage/tanking spec. So something that behaves a little more like a sniper might be a good fit. Let me recreate the playstyle of GW1 air builds but with all four elements - scepter is closest, but doesn't really hit the mark for me. Could be interesting to see a mechanic that rewards spending more time in an attunement (similar to what tempest did), but that might annoy the players who like attunement-switching-heavy playstyles. Actually, come to think on it, you know what could be interesting? Combine an attunement mechanic that rewards staying in an attunement for longer periods of time with a weapon that really radically changes its behaviour when swapping attunements. As in, air attunement is oriented towards long-range sniping, earth attunement turns it into a melee weapon, fire attunement is a close-range area weapon, and water does something support-related most likely. Make it so that swapping attunements is actually as impactful as another profession swapping weapons, but the price is that it's impractical to change attunements as often as core elementalists and weavers do.

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Where as I do agree with Draxynnic regarding Revenant and Ritualist, it also got me thinking:The Legendary Aspect, could be Togo, with the Aspect skills changing into 'Ashes of... ' https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Item_spellScourge and Engineer to a certain extend already covered the Spirits part of the Ritulaist. What's left are the direct spells and the Ashes of skill-line. Would fit with Revenants in a way that the are the only class to get bundle skills, since gameplay and thematically they wouldn't fit anywhere else as much. Although one could argue the Elementalist Conjure Skills are similar.

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I say give each elite an extra weapon.

HOT-(Gua) Dragon Hunter: Long Bow & off hand Sword w/ Traps and Physical Virtues(War) Berserker: Torch & main hand Shield w/ Rage and F2 for Berserker mode(Rev) Herald: Shield & offhand Focus w/ Signets and F2 shares boons with Allies(Rang) Druid: Staff & offhand Focus w/ Glyphs and F5 conjures a Celestial Avatar state.(Eng) Scrapper: Hammer & main hand Mace w/ Gyros (Wells) F5 Sends a Gyro to revive allies or finishes foes.(Thief) Daredevil: Staff & Dual Mace w/ Physical, additional dodges and unique dodge abilities.(Mes) Chronomancer: Shield & Dual Daggers w/ Wells and F5 reverses time.(Ele) Tempest: Warhorn & offhand Scepter w/ Shouts and Overload Attunements(Nec) Reaper: Great Sword & offhand Shield w/ Shouts and a new Reaper Shroud.

POF-(Gua) Firebrand: main hand Axe & main hand Focus w/ Mantras and Virtuous Tomes(War) Spellbreaker: Dual Daggers & offhand Focus w/ Meditations and F2 as a Full Counter(Rev) Renegade: Short Bow & Great Sword w/ Spirits and F Skills to conjure otherworldly abilities to attack foes or buff allies.(Rang) Soulbeast: Main hand Dagger & Rifle w/ Stances and F5 to merge with animal spirit.(Eng) Holosmith: Main hand Sword & Staff w/ Exceeds and F5 Photon Forge(Thief) Deadeye: Rifle & offhand Focus w/ Cantips and F2 to Mark Target and generate Malice(Mes) Mirage: Main hand Axe & Main hand Pistol w/ Deceptions and Dodge used for Mirage Cloak and an Ambush ability when cloaked.(Ele) Weaver: Main hand Sword & main hand Focus w/ Stances and Dual Attuning for Dual abilities(Nec) Scourge: Torch & Offhand Axe w/ Punishments and Desert Shoud abilities.

EOD-(Gua) Archon: War Horn & offhand Scepter w/ Glyphs and Attune to Virtues and gain more buffs corresponding to attuned virtue.(War) Warlord: Staff & Dual Pistols w/ Recruits (minions) while using F2 to place a Mark on the battle field to buff allies and punish foes standing in the marked area. F1 Burst attack can only be used when fully charged.(Rev) Overlord: Dual Pistols & main hand Scepter w/ Exceed and F2 to Open a Dimensional Gate that does damage to caster if opened for too long, but also improves exceed skills the longer it's open (like holosmith).(Rang) Warden: Hammer & offhand Shield w/ Consecrations and have two pets fight at once instead of one pet at a time.(Eng) Technomancr: Great Sword & offhand Focus w/ Cybertronics (Physical). The tool belt skills throw out gears to your allies to pick up or traps to foes to step in. You also have a Mana Meter that builds up, so when you use F5, it transforms you to a battle mech, changing your weapon skills (like druid's avatar).(Thief) Reaver: Torch & Great Sword w/ Survivals and a new Intuition mechanic where the more initiative you have buffs you and allies in combat.(Mes) Enchanter: Short Bow & Warhorn w/ Shouts, more clones and new shatter skills that buff allies when shattered and an F5 that merge clones to one more powerful clone "Doppelganger".(Ele) Magus: Long Bow & Great Sword w/ Mantras and a F5 which grants the "Arcane State" (like druid's avatar), with a much longer recharge time for all attunements.(Nec) Warlock: Rifle & Hammer w/ Preparations and a Demon Shroud.

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@"Aerick Blackmoore.8167" said:Where as I do agree with Draxynnic regarding Revenant and Ritualist, it also got me thinking:The Legendary Aspect, could be Togo, with the Aspect skills changing into 'Ashes of... ' https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Item_spellScourge and Engineer to a certain extend already covered the Spirits part of the Ritulaist. What's left are the direct spells and the Ashes of skill-line. Would fit with Revenants in a way that the are the only class to get bundle skills, since gameplay and thematically they wouldn't fit anywhere else as much. Although one could argue the Elementalist Conjure Skills are similar.

Personally, I generally consider conjures and kits to be the equivalent of ashes. GW1 didn't have full-on skillbar changes like GW2 does, but the general effect was to replace your weapon, modify some of your skills, and provide you with another skill in reserve as the drop effect, with the general tradeoff being that you lose your autoattack in exchange for boosting your spells. The GW2 equivalent would probably just replace the weapon skills rather than modifying them. Maybe as a nod to GW1 ashes, they'd behave like conjures and the skill 5 would consume the ashes for some significant effect (similar to how some environmental weapons have skills that consume the weapon, even if those weapons have other skills) but, basically, I'd expect ashes to have a similar mechanic to weapon conjures.

Which is... problematic when it comes to the revenant. Five ashes skills working in this fashion, plus weaponswap, plus legend swap is probably just too many skills on one build. Sure, an elementalist that loads up as many conjures as possible can probably still get more, but that's someone doing it deliberately just for the memes. Alternatively, there could only be one or two ashes... but in my opinion, it'd be a pale imitation of the ritualist if there's only one or two ashpots you WILL have and that's it. The revenant mechanics fundamentally block you from having the degree of customisation and the ability to fit different skills together into a build that a ritualist should have. And that's without considering that, even if this did all somehow work, spirits would be locked behind a different elite specialisation. You won't have a ritualist. You'd have two separate pieces of ritualist that can never be fitted together, bolted onto a melee-oriented setup (if your other legend is anything other than Ventari) or a healer (if your other legend is Ventari).

Which is why I say that any genuine attempt to recreate the ritualist needs to be based off a profession that has a regular utility bar. You need to be able to have the freedom to choose all ashes (or ash substitutes), or all spirits (or spirit substitutes), or some combination of the two. Necromancer could do this, especially if the death shroud replacement has a ritualistic flair - minions can stand in for mobile spirits, so the six utility skills that non-revenant elite specialisations get can go to offering a wide range of choices of ashes. And then the other ritualist skills could come out of the ashes.

Togo is an idea that's been floated before, but I don't think it fits. First, because I don't think he's significant enough - his primary accomplishments are helping to defeat Shiro (we already have Shiro, and I don't think that story is powerful enough to fuel two legends) and making a peace with the Tengu that started falling apart less than a decade after his death.

The second, more important, reason is that I consider it a waste of the revenant's potential to have a legend which is basically "let's pretend to be some OTHER profession". While some of the legends did have regular professions in life, all of them have some or all of their skills coming out of significant deeds they performed, not simply an echo of the skills they had in life. Shiro, probably the legend that closest resembles Shiro's own fighting style, has a mini-Jade Wind. Jalis's skills aren't the warrior skills he used in life, but are manifestations of the dwarven spirit. Ventari's skills revolve around his tablet, and Kalla's around the warband that helped her bring down the Flame Legion.

So, by this precedent, a Togo legend wouldn't HAVE ritualist skills. Maybe a couple, but it would also be expected to focus on what he did. And what did he do? He taught. He made peace. We already have a pacifist teacher among the legends.

I understand the lore reasons why people look to revenant as the ritualist's successor, but while the two do have similar power sources, they're further apart from each other than monks and guardians. People looking to the revenant to be the successor to the ritualist will never be satisfied, because the base mechanics of the revenant mean that it will never play like a ritualist. Trying... again... will only alienate the people who like the revenant for what it actually is rather than for its imagined potential to replicate a beloved GW1 profession.

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@draxynnic.3719 said:So, by this precedent, a Togo legend wouldn't HAVE ritualist skills. Maybe a couple, but it would also be expected to focus on what he did. And what did he do? He taught. He made peace. We already have a pacifist teacher among the legends.Perhaps we should be looking elsewhere for the Legend. Assuming they don't go for one from Factions, then let's look at other heroes. Perhaps Prince Rurik, Trahearne (just to troll the playerbase), or maybe even Snaff could work?

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@RyuDragnier.9476 said:

@draxynnic.3719 said:So, by this precedent, a Togo legend wouldn't HAVE ritualist skills. Maybe a couple, but it would also be expected to focus on what he did. And what did he do? He taught. He made peace. We already
have
a pacifist teacher among the legends.Perhaps we should be looking elsewhere for the Legend. Assuming they don't go for one from Factions, then let's look at other heroes. Perhaps Prince Rurik, Trahearne (just to troll the playerbase), or maybe even Snaff could work?

Personally, I ascribe to the school of thought that we have legends significant to charr (Kalla), sylvari (Ventari) and human (the rest, pretty much) history, so it'd be good to see a legend associated with the norn or asura.

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@draxynnic.3719 said:

@draxynnic.3719 said:So, by this precedent, a Togo legend wouldn't HAVE ritualist skills. Maybe a couple, but it would also be expected to focus on what he did. And what did he do? He taught. He made peace. We already
have
a pacifist teacher among the legends.Perhaps we should be looking elsewhere for the Legend. Assuming they don't go for one from Factions, then let's look at other heroes. Perhaps Prince Rurik, Trahearne (just to troll the playerbase), or maybe even Snaff could work?

Personally, I ascribe to the school of thought that we have legends significant to charr (Kalla), sylvari (Ventari) and human (the rest, pretty much) history, so it'd be good to see a legend associated with the norn or asura.

VEKK!!! But only if they bring back Maurice LaMarche (The Brain) to voice him again.

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Vekk was awesome, but I can't really see him as a legend. He was essentially a sidekick to the GW1PC (although he'd obviously never admit it), he was a pretty straightforward elementalist, and as far as we know there's not really anything he's done that's so impressive that a legend could be built around it.

Oola and Snaff are a bit more legendary, but in both cases they're mostly known for their breakthroughs in golemancy, and I can't really see a golem legend working well mechanically. The best asura option that we currently know the name of might well be Zinn - that little guy did a lot, so they probably could find a few things to base a Zinn legend off that aren't simply golem summons.

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@Aerick Blackmoore.8167 said:What about a Tengu hero, Talon Silverwing? Fits within Cantha. Weapon could be either Daggers or Greatsword,with Shout like abilitiesI do think a tengu legend is likely, probably one we haven’t heard of that could’ve gained fame in cantha or DoWs during the gap between games.Otherwise I’d think asura or norn are due for attention. Maybe a largos hero if there is a lot of underwater content but I doubt it.

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@The Greyhawk.9107 said:Dunno, even Kalla had been mentioned previously in Charr lore document, the books, as well as in game. But a completely new and unheard-of Legend? I don't think even Anet would do that.

In this instance I more imagine that it’s a new-to-us lore figure whose historical importance would be meaningful to the expansion, and whose exploits or deeds we’d learn of while exploring EoDs. But it would be a departure.

Snaff is the only Asura that comes to mind immediately, but I don’t know if he’s famous enough to be a “legend” on par with Shiro, Glint, Kalla, Ventari, etc.

Aesgir or Jora could make fitting Norn legends. Maybe even Eir?

I could see Scarlet being infamous enough to become a Revenant legend. Legendary Mastermind Stance? Legendary Harbinger?

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Well Ventari wasn't all that important in GW1, so am not ruling out Talon just yet, but the offspring who led the Tengu to the Domain of Winds is a likely candidate I'd say. Scarlet as a Legend, I think I'd quite like that. Jora would be awesome too.

Asura Legends; Zinn, Vekk, Oola, Gadd, Snaff - are all that come to mind.

Mechanically, I'm just looking at the missing weapon lines and am still betting on Daggers, Greatsword or Scepter.

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Yeah, the offspring is... we don't know the name, but if we were introduced, we'd know who she was. And the Tengu are showing up later in the episode according to the trailers.

I suspect one limitation is that they'll avoid characters who died during the game. Scarlet might get a pass, since that's content that people can't play any more anyway, but otherwise, it'd be a bit jarring fighting against someone whole channeling their legend. That's probably why Joko has been implicitly ruled out in a way that also shows that he is significant enough to count (and while he was still, well, animate, too) - if they ever used Joko as a legend, at some point someone's going to use his legendary stance to fight him. It'll happen. Guaranteed. Sooner or later, someone will do it just for the irony factor.

(It'd be me, if someone doesn't beat me to the punch.)

Scarlet, though... I'm not sure how they'd go about making a legend around. Her main feats were being a good engineer, forming ridiculous alliances, and waking up Mordremoth.

Incidentally, in Ventari's case, it's worth noting that while Ventari wasn't all that important in GW1, his teachings define sylvari culture (those who don't follow them are defined by their rejection of them). It's no coincidence that all of the abilities linked to his stance are based around the Tablet. Most of the GW1 legends don't have that sort of legacy. We don't even know what happened to Vekk.

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@VocalThought.9835 said:I say give each elite an extra weapon.

Interesting thought, although I don't think they are gonna change the first two expansions. I like the ideas below tho. Maybe two weapons instead of one for EoD xD

@The Greyhawk.9107 said:Dunno, even Kalla had been mentioned previously in Charr lore document, the books, as well as in game. But a completely new and unheard-of Legend? I don't think even Anet would do that.

they can always give out a completely new storyline that may even travel to another dimension xD

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@Ryo.5824 said:

@The Greyhawk.9107 said:Dunno, even Kalla had been mentioned previously in Charr lore document, the books, as well as in game. But a completely new and unheard-of Legend? I don't think even Anet would do that.

they can always give out a completely new storyline that may even travel to another dimension xD

Thats....rather random.

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@Ryo.5824 said:

@VocalThought.9835 said:I say give each elite an extra weapon.

Interesting thought, although I don't think they are gonna change the first two expansions. I like the ideas below tho. Maybe two weapons instead of one for EoD xD

@The Greyhawk.9107 said:Dunno, even Kalla had been mentioned previously in Charr lore document, the books, as well as in game. But a completely new and unheard-of Legend? I don't think even Anet would do that.

they can always give out a completely new storyline that may even travel to another dimension xD

They don't have to change the expansions, they can just add too them. ?

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