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Elite Specialization Discussion - End of Dragons


DanielPienaar.8094

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@phokus.8934 said:Off-hand weapons won’t be main-hand and two-handed weapons won’t be dual wielded.

What are peoples fascination with this ridiculous concept?

I agree. When I see people requesting double hammer warrior, or double gs etc, I get dissapointed cause it is utterly stupid and as a warrior main I would never touch the spec.

But I'm also not fond of 'pistolier' warrior or 'staff' warrior. Where's peoples' creativity? That's Thief and Daredevil already... But i respect everyone's opinion in the end.

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@Grand Marshal.4098 said:

@"phokus.8934" said:Off-hand weapons won’t be main-hand and two-handed weapons won’t be dual wielded.

What are peoples fascination with this ridiculous concept?

I agree. When I see people requesting double hammer warrior, or double gs etc, I get dissapointed cause it is utterly stupid and as a warrior main I would never touch the spec.

But I'm also not fond of 'pistolier' warrior or 'staff' warrior. Where's peoples' creativity? That's Thief and Daredevil already... But i respect everyone's opinion in the end.

The issue with warrior is that he already got a lot of weapons. Apart from shortbow, focus, scepter, pistol and staff there is no option left. Focus and scepter feel unlikely and it seem that subcousciously nobody want shortbow. Staff is a way for players that root for polearm to get a substitute while pistol just feel "right" (which is probably charr's propaganda since their army heavily invest into technology).

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@Dadnir.5038 said:

@"phokus.8934" said:Off-hand weapons won’t be main-hand and two-handed weapons won’t be dual wielded.

What are peoples fascination with this ridiculous concept?

I agree. When I see people requesting double hammer warrior, or double gs etc, I get dissapointed cause it is utterly stupid and as a warrior main I would never touch the spec.

But I'm also not fond of 'pistolier' warrior or 'staff' warrior. Where's peoples' creativity? That's Thief and Daredevil already... But i respect everyone's opinion in the end.

The issue with warrior is that he already got a lot of weapons. Apart from shortbow, focus, scepter, pistol and staff there is no option left. Focus and scepter feel unlikely and it seem that subcousciously nobody want shortbow. Staff is a way for players that root for polearm to get a substitute while pistol just feel "right" (which is probably charr's propaganda since their army heavily invest into technology).

So Staff used as a spear in land just so Anet doesnt have to code the actual spear as a land weapon? Sounds like something cheap they can pull. But not martial arts staff. Revenant and Daredevil already give off that vibe with how they swing the staff.

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@Grand Marshal.4098 said:So Staff used as a spear in land just so Anet doesnt have to code the actual spear as a land weapon? Sounds like something cheap they can pull. But not martial arts staff. Revenant and Daredevil already give off that vibe with how they swing the staff.

If they are able to create effect on the necro staff that make it look like a scythe when using a skill, they can create effects on warrior staff to make it look like whatever they want. Imo, it could even be interesting visually, the warrior shaping the tip of it's staff with each skill (A sword edge for a slash, a spear tip for a thrust, a hammer head for a bash... etc.), it would certainly give a different vibe than revenant and dardevil's staff.

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@Dadnir.5038 said:

@Grand Marshal.4098 said:So Staff used as a spear in land just so Anet doesnt have to code the actual spear as a land weapon? Sounds like something cheap they can pull. But not martial arts staff. Revenant and Daredevil already give off that vibe with how they swing the staff.

If they are able to create effect on the necro staff that make it look like a scythe when using a skill, they can create effects on warrior staff to make it look like whatever they want. Imo, it could even be interesting visually, the warrior shaping the tip of it's staff with each skill (A sword edge for a slash, a spear tip for a thrust, a hammer head for a bash... etc.), it would certainly give a different vibe than revenant and dardevil's staff.

Veri interesting idea! I would not mind that at all! A more magically inclined warrior using staff to create a set of polearms without them having to exist! This would mix very well with my 'demonslayer' spec i Had in mind which has some access to magic like demon-hunters from wow. Actually any idea can work with this variant of a weapon. Some choreography in the animations would be appreciated (and I think this is what most people want wehn they speak of staff warrio, but they describe it like Daredevil).

Anyway, how would you change adrenaline for a new spec? The only interesting change I've come up with is 3 different bursts (animation and effects) that if carried out as a combo give some reward to the player. And with such a weapon, it would make sense.

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@Dadnir.5038 said:If they are able to create effect on the necro staff that make it look like a scythe when using a skill, they can create effects on warrior staff to make it look like whatever they want. Imo, it could even be interesting visually, the warrior shaping the tip of it's staff with each skill (A sword edge for a slash, a spear tip for a thrust, a hammer head for a bash... etc.), it would certainly give a different vibe than revenant and dardevil's staff.

We already have multiple staff skins that are actual spears and many others that could easily be used for poking (like the Adamant Guard Staff or the four Legion Staves from the Forging steel mission), so we don't need to have another magical warrior, just to have some Staff poking.

Of course there would also be silly things like Warriors poking with Kasmeer's Staff.But those are non-issues with Daredevil or Revenant, so they would be non-issues for Warrior as well.

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@Grand Marshal.4098 said:Anyway, how would you change adrenaline for a new spec? The only interesting change I've come up with is 3 different bursts (animation and effects) that if carried out as a combo give some reward to the player. And with such a weapon, it would make sense.

Personally, I'd like the next e-spec to not affect the base burst mechanic. I'd like it to sacrifice the ability to chose the secondary weaponset, replacing it with a banner/standard having it's own set of skills and burst. With the staff and banner this would mean 10 new weapon skills and 2 new bursts added with this e-spec.

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@"draxynnic.3719" said:I've seen it. I've also seen some very detailed analyses of it.

One large shield is good. Two large shields tend to get in the way of attacking with either, and give you a large blind zone around you that makes it hard to defend yourself. Like I said, a lot of people who haven't trained in fighting with a large shield underestimate how much of a blind spot it can create, especially if you raise it to defend your head. With sword and shield, you can adopt a stance where the sword defends your head until you use it to strike. With two shields, you can't effectively adopt that stance (it relies on using the length of the blade to protect your head when your hand is above and behind your head).

With equal skill, I wouldn't bet on someone with two shields against someone with sword and shield. I don't think I'd even bet on someone with two shields against someone with a sword alone. It might be a long fight, but the sword offers longer reach, greater agility, and a more potentially damaging attack - sooner or later the guy with a sword will find an opening or a blind spot to get a thrust in.

Sure, if you've got one guy who's trained for twenty years with dual shields and another guy who's just picked up a sword for the first time, the guy with two shields could win. But like a lot of exotic weapon combinations, it's one of those situations where the guy who spends the same amount of time training with a conventional set of weapons is still going to be ahead.

You keep saying "Large Shield" No one is suggesting a "Large Shield". I just said "Shield". Plus the game doesn't even have a shield size option like it does for Bow and Swords, so I don't know what you're referring to. Plus, when ANet introduces a new weapon to a profession, they typically create a new weapon skins, so players can always pick a skins they want, small or large, but it'll still just be a Shield.

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@VocalThought.9835 said:

@"draxynnic.3719" said:I've seen it. I've also seen some very detailed analyses of it.

One large shield is good. Two large shields tend to get in the way of attacking with either, and give you a large blind zone around you that makes it hard to defend yourself. Like I said, a lot of people who haven't trained in fighting with a large shield underestimate how much of a blind spot it can create, especially if you raise it to defend your head. With sword and shield, you can adopt a stance where the sword defends your head until you use it to strike. With two shields, you can't effectively adopt that stance (it relies on using the length of the blade to protect your head when your hand is above and behind your head).

With equal skill, I wouldn't bet on someone with two shields against someone with sword and shield. I don't think I'd even bet on someone with two shields against someone with a sword alone. It might be a long fight, but the sword offers longer reach, greater agility, and a more potentially damaging attack - sooner or later the guy with a sword will find an opening or a blind spot to get a thrust in.

Sure, if you've got one guy who's trained for twenty years with dual shields and another guy who's just picked up a sword for the first time, the guy with two shields could win. But like a lot of exotic weapon combinations, it's one of those situations where the guy who spends the same amount of time training with a conventional set of weapons is still going to be ahead.

You keep saying "Large Shield" No one is suggesting a "Large Shield". I just said "Shield". Plus the game doesn't even have a shield size option like it does for Bow and Swords, so I don't know what you're referring to. Plus, when ANet give an introduces a new weapon to a profession, they typically create a new weapon skins, so players can always pick a skins they want, small or large, but it'll still just be a Shield.

The main problem for me is: why should Anet make a systemic change like allowing offhand weapons in the mainhand if they don't have to?

All classes still have enough weapons open for elite specs without them having to use such tricks to artificially increase the pool of weapons they can chose from.

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@phokus.8934 said:Off-hand weapons won’t be main-hand and two-handed weapons won’t be dual wielded.

What are peoples fascination with this ridiculous concept?

Listen to your logic... you found something wrong with people wanting to use a weapon in their main hand that can use in their offhand? I can understand the other way around, but this makes no sense to me. I can understand not needing to put a torch or war horn in the main hand, but if someone had a cool idea for it, I would support it.

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@Kodama.6453 said:

@"draxynnic.3719" said:I've seen it. I've also seen some very detailed analyses of it.

One large shield is good. Two large shields tend to get in the way of attacking with either, and give you a large blind zone around you that makes it hard to defend yourself. Like I said, a lot of people who haven't trained in fighting with a large shield underestimate how much of a blind spot it can create, especially if you raise it to defend your head. With sword and shield, you can adopt a stance where the sword defends your head until you use it to strike. With two shields, you can't effectively adopt that stance (it relies on using the length of the blade to protect your head when your hand is above and behind your head).

With equal skill, I wouldn't bet on someone with two shields against someone with sword and shield. I don't think I'd even bet on someone with two shields against someone with a sword alone. It might be a long fight, but the sword offers longer reach, greater agility, and a more potentially damaging attack - sooner or later the guy with a sword will find an opening or a blind spot to get a thrust in.

Sure, if you've got one guy who's trained for twenty years with dual shields and another guy who's just picked up a sword for the first time, the guy with two shields could win. But like a lot of exotic weapon combinations, it's one of those situations where the guy who spends the same amount of time training with a conventional set of weapons is still going to be ahead.

You keep saying "Large Shield" No one is suggesting a "Large Shield". I just said "Shield". Plus the game doesn't even have a shield size option like it does for Bow and Swords, so I don't know what you're referring to. Plus, when ANet give an introduces a new weapon to a profession, they typically create a new weapon skins, so players can always pick a skins they want, small or large, but it'll still just be a Shield.

The main problem for me is: why should Anet make a systemic change like allowing offhand weapons in the mainhand if they don't have to?

All classes still have enough weapons open for elite specs without them having to use such tricks to artificially increase the pool of weapons they can chose from.

"Systemic Change"? I guess I don't see making a "main hand only" or an "offhand weapon only" dual welded a systemic change. I can understand if you said aquatic weapons, but this is simply having the weapon in another hand like most of their other weapons. The only weapon that would need more care would be a main hand Shield due to positioning and stowing.

The reason for allowing these weapons to be used would be to stick with the theme of the profession. If any profession was to use a Scepter in an off hand or a focus in the main hand, would be a spell caster and if anyone would be able to use a Shield in their main hand would definitely be the Warrior.

The point of thinking of off hand weapons as a main hand option doesn't have to be taboo or against a cardinal rule. It's adding to a creative process without straying too far from what's implemented. I think offhand/main hand only weapons are more of a "happen-stance" than something that ANet was focused on having.

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@Dadnir.5038 said:

@"phokus.8934" said:Off-hand weapons won’t be main-hand and two-handed weapons won’t be dual wielded.

What are peoples fascination with this ridiculous concept?

I agree. When I see people requesting double hammer warrior, or double gs etc, I get dissapointed cause it is utterly stupid and as a warrior main I would never touch the spec.

But I'm also not fond of 'pistolier' warrior or 'staff' warrior. Where's peoples' creativity? That's Thief and Daredevil already... But i respect everyone's opinion in the end.

The issue with warrior is that he already got a lot of weapons. Apart from shortbow, focus, scepter, pistol and staff there is no option left. Focus and scepter feel unlikely and it seem that subcousciously nobody want shortbow. Staff is a way for players that root for polearm to get a substitute while pistol just feel "right" (which is probably charr's propaganda since their army heavily invest into technology).

There is only one weapon I can see a Warrior not using, which is Scepter. I would perfer that they also keep Warriors away from using Short Bows, but every other weapon should be on the table. I think with Focus, they should have had SpellBreakers use that instead of Daggers, but I'm hoping they give each elite an extra weapon to use. If they had focus they could have one skill that buffs themselves and another skill that may cause enemies to have conditions, almost like how their Meditations skills are.

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@Grand Marshal.4098 said:

@"phokus.8934" said:Off-hand weapons won’t be main-hand and two-handed weapons won’t be dual wielded.

What are peoples fascination with this ridiculous concept?

I agree. When I see people requesting double hammer warrior, or double gs etc, I get dissapointed cause it is utterly stupid and as a warrior main I would never touch the spec.

But I'm also not fond of 'pistolier' warrior or 'staff' warrior. Where's peoples' creativity? That's Thief and Daredevil already... But i respect everyone's opinion in the end.

The issue with warrior is that he already got a lot of weapons. Apart from shortbow, focus, scepter, pistol and staff there is no option left. Focus and scepter feel unlikely and it seem that subcousciously nobody want shortbow. Staff is a way for players that root for polearm to get a substitute while pistol just feel "right" (which is probably charr's propaganda since their army heavily invest into technology).

So Staff used as a spear in land just so Anet doesnt have to code the actual spear as a land weapon? Sounds like something cheap they can pull. But not martial arts staff. Revenant and Daredevil already give off that vibe with how they swing the staff.

I think they can easily use Staff as a Pole-arm or Halberd instead of a bo or quater. I'll even be ok if they use it like a javelin. As someone said already, they have so many skins, they can pull it off.

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@VocalThought.9835 said:

@"draxynnic.3719" said:I've seen it. I've also seen some very detailed analyses of it.

One large shield is good. Two large shields tend to get in the way of attacking with either, and give you a large blind zone around you that makes it hard to defend yourself. Like I said, a lot of people who haven't trained in fighting with a large shield underestimate how much of a blind spot it can create, especially if you raise it to defend your head. With sword and shield, you can adopt a stance where the sword defends your head until you use it to strike. With two shields, you can't effectively adopt that stance (it relies on using the length of the blade to protect your head when your hand is above and behind your head).

With equal skill, I wouldn't bet on someone with two shields against someone with sword and shield. I don't think I'd even bet on someone with two shields against someone with a sword alone. It might be a long fight, but the sword offers longer reach, greater agility, and a more potentially damaging attack - sooner or later the guy with a sword will find an opening or a blind spot to get a thrust in.

Sure, if you've got one guy who's trained for twenty years with dual shields and another guy who's just picked up a sword for the first time, the guy with two shields could win. But like a lot of exotic weapon combinations, it's one of those situations where the guy who spends the same amount of time training with a conventional set of weapons is still going to be ahead.

You keep saying "Large Shield" No one is suggesting a "Large Shield". I just said "Shield". Plus the game doesn't even have a shield size option like it does for Bow and Swords, so I don't know what you're referring to. Plus, when ANet introduces a new weapon to a profession, they typically create a new weapon skins, so players can always pick a skins they want, small or large, but it'll still just be a Shield.

I'm using 'large shield' to distinguish from things like bucklers - something which I'd hoped would be evident from the context since I talked about weaponised bucklers in an earlier post. Broadly speaking, any shield that reaches the neck in the standard Guild Wars 2 shield stance is big enough for the observations I've made to apply... and that's the overwhelming majority of the shield skins in the game. Meanwhile, there are actually a few focus skins that would make for decent fancy bucklers, like Mist Lord, Stormcaller, and Dark Wing. It's not a matter of "okay, the larger shields are large enough that trying to dual-wield them will create the problems I've described", it's that pretty much ALL of the existing shield skins are big enough to block vision, get in each other's way, and otherwise be more awkward than it's worth.

Of course, focus skins also have the problem that most focus skins don't look like they'd make decent conventional weapons or bucklers, so I wouldn't consider dual-wielding focii to be a suitable approach either.

Closest thing I could see to 'dual shields' actually making sense would be to use daggers, give them defensive skills, and have a skin that resembles weaponised bucklers. Give the profession special animations so that they wield the daggers the right way up for defensive use rather than icepick grip, similar to how thief and revenant have a special staff grip (this grip could possibly also be retroactively added to elementalists who use daggers purely as casting implements). Historically, daggers, sais, and similar weapons were often used as parrying weapons (particularly in situations where carrying large shields was impractical - a parrying dagger is easier to carry and hide than a buckler, let alone a larger shield), so the defensive skills would still make sense pretty much regardless of which dagger skin you used. And if this was done with a profession which already has a shield offhand, you could still combine it with a large shield in the off hand if you wanted to.

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@"draxynnic.3719" said:Of course, focus skins also have the problem that most focus skins don't look like they'd make decent conventional weapons or bucklers, so I wouldn't consider dual-wielding focii to be a suitable approach either.

With that line of thought, hardly any weapon would made a decent conventional weapon, with all the over-sized skins and all the floaty parts.I don't think real life conventions, other than "this is one-handed and this is two-handed", should be applied to fantasy games.

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@Fueki.4753 said:

@"draxynnic.3719" said:Of course, focus skins also have the problem that most focus skins don't look like they'd make decent conventional weapons
or
bucklers, so I wouldn't consider dual-wielding focii to be a suitable approach either.

With that line of thought, hardly any weapon would made a
decent conventional weapon,
with all the over-sized skins and all the floaty parts.I don't think real life conventions, other than "this is one-handed and this is two-handed", should be applied to fantasy games.

Eh. I don't disagree that some of the skins are a bit over-the-top, but I think there's a distinction between hitting someone with a sword, even if it's a sword that's comically overlarge, held together only be magic, or overengineered to the point of being completely impractical in real life, and using something like a bell, cup, doll, scroll, or flower as your primary weapon. The focus class is pretty much a grab-bag of pretty much anything that could be held that doesn't fit into another category - the point is that while there are certainly some focuses that have a buckler-esque look which can work well if you want a 'mage knight'-esque look, I wouldn't build an elite specialisation around the idea that focuses are bucklers.

I might, however, see a specialisation built around the idea of daggers being defensive weapons, and give them a few skins that are essentially weaponised bucklers.

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@VocalThought.9835 said:There is only one weapon I can see a Warrior not using, which is Scepter. I would perfer that they also keep Warriors away from using Short Bows, but every other weapon should be on the table. I think with Focus, they should have had SpellBreakers use that instead of Daggers, but I'm hoping they give each elite an extra weapon to use. If they had focus they could have one skill that buffs themselves and another skill that may cause enemies to have conditions, almost like how their Meditations skills are.

I think everything could be a weapon in a warrior's hands, even the scepter.

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@VocalThought.9835 said:

@phokus.8934 said:Off-hand weapons won’t be main-hand and two-handed weapons won’t be dual wielded.

What are peoples fascination with this ridiculous concept?

Listen to your logic... you found something wrong with people wanting to use a weapon in their main hand that can use in their offhand? I can understand the other way around, but this makes no sense to me. I can understand not needing to put a torch or war horn in the main hand, but if someone had a cool idea for it, I would support it.Of course you and countless others don’t understand. You’re talking about a significant change to the game with weapon classification.

It’s one thing to want something interesting but at least be a little realistic about it.

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@draxynnic.3719 said:

@draxynnic.3719 said:I've seen it. I've also seen some very detailed analyses of it.

One large shield is good. Two large shields tend to get in the way of attacking with either, and give you a large blind zone around you that makes it hard to defend yourself. Like I said, a lot of people who haven't trained in fighting with a large shield underestimate how much of a blind spot it can create, especially if you raise it to defend your head. With sword and shield, you can adopt a stance where the sword defends your head until you use it to strike. With two shields, you can't effectively adopt that stance (it relies on using the length of the blade to protect your head when your hand is above and behind your head).

With equal skill, I wouldn't bet on someone with two shields against someone with sword and shield. I don't think I'd even bet on someone with two shields against someone with a sword alone. It might be a long fight, but the sword offers longer reach, greater agility, and a more potentially damaging attack - sooner or later the guy with a sword will find an opening or a blind spot to get a thrust in.

Sure, if you've got one guy who's trained for twenty years with dual shields and another guy who's just picked up a sword for the first time, the guy with two shields could win. But like a lot of exotic weapon combinations, it's one of those situations where the guy who spends the same amount of time training with a conventional set of weapons is still going to be ahead.

You keep saying "Large Shield" No one is suggesting a "Large Shield". I just said "Shield". Plus the game doesn't even have a shield size option like it does for Bow and Swords, so I don't know what you're referring to. Plus, when ANet introduces a new weapon to a profession, they typically create a new weapon skins, so players can always pick a skins they want, small or large, but it'll still just be a Shield.

I'm using 'large shield' to distinguish from things like bucklers - something which I'd hoped would be evident from the context since I talked about weaponised bucklers in an earlier post. Broadly speaking, any shield that reaches the neck in the standard Guild Wars 2 shield stance is big enough for the observations I've made to apply... and that's the overwhelming majority of the shield skins in the game. Meanwhile, there are actually a few
focus
skins that would make for decent fancy bucklers, like Mist Lord, Stormcaller, and Dark Wing. It's not a matter of "okay, the larger shields are large enough that trying to dual-wield them will create the problems I've described", it's that pretty much ALL of the existing shield skins are big enough to block vision, get in each other's way, and otherwise be more awkward than it's worth.

Of course, focus skins also have the problem that most focus skins don't look like they'd make decent conventional weapons
or
bucklers, so I wouldn't consider dual-wielding focii to be a suitable approach either.

Closest thing I could see to 'dual shields' actually making sense would be to use
daggers,
give them defensive skills, and have a skin that resembles weaponised bucklers. Give the profession special animations so that they wield the daggers the right way up for defensive use rather than icepick grip, similar to how thief and revenant have a special staff grip (this grip could possibly also be retroactively added to elementalists who use daggers purely as casting implements). Historically, daggers, sais, and similar weapons were often used as parrying weapons (particularly in situations where carrying large shields was impractical - a parrying dagger is easier to carry and hide than a buckler, let alone a larger shield), so the defensive skills would still make sense pretty much regardless of which dagger skin you used. And if this was done with a profession which already has a shield offhand, you could still combine it with a large shield in the off hand if you wanted to.

Since Warrior's already use daggers for an elite, and already uses a Shield offensively in thier offhand, they could just give them another shield to be used in their main hand with an new shield skin that more suited to what Kratos would use in "God of War". Heck they could make a glass shield skin or an energy skin. I don't care about the skin personally, but they could do it because any Shield would do. I'm not suggesting other professions use the shield in the main hand, and with warrior basically already using most weapons, the shield in his main hand, I feel, is fitting to, especially since he already has skills with off hand Shield that would compliment a fisticuffs style of fighting that I'm suggesting with a main hand Shield.

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@"VocalThought.9835" said:Since Warrior's already use daggers for an elite, and already uses a Shield offensively in thier offhand, they could just give them another shield to be used in their main hand with an new shield skin that more suited to what Kratos would use in "God of War". Heck they could make a glass shield skin or an energy skin. I don't care about the skin personally, but they could do it because any Shield would do. I'm not suggesting other professions use the shield in the main hand, and with warrior basically already using most weapons, the shield in his main hand, I feel, is fitting to, especially since he already has skills with off hand Shield that would compliment a fisticuffs style of fighting that I'm suggesting with a main hand Shield.

It's probably a misunderstanding, I think what's important related to "shield mainhand" is that there exist traits that work based on whether the weapon in off-hand can be used as a main hand weapon or not (Arms's traitline: dual wielding). Which mean that there is an existing list of weapons (shield/focus/torch/warhorn) that is coded to only be used as off-hand weapon. ANet trying to put those weapons on main hand might break the game architecture.

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Generally speaking, when I come across 'dual shields', it's in the context of guardians or both rather than Warriors specifically, so I was talking in generalities. Warriors do have an issue that most of the non-spellcaster weapons are already taken. My observations still apply, though, and like Dadnir points out, there may be technical considerations in play.

Personally, I'd still consider pistol or staff to be better options, although the exact approach might well depend on the theme of the elite.

(Incidentally, the weapon that you're currently supposed to combine with shield for a 'brawling' style is probably mace, since MH mace gives you a daze, a block, and the adrenaline skill is a stun.)

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@phokus.8934 said:Off-hand weapons won’t be main-hand and two-handed weapons won’t be dual wielded.

What are peoples fascination with this ridiculous concept?

I agree. The game never gave a chance for this to happen, it has enough weapons to distribute yet, even the Warrior who has more weapons that everyone can still have more.Off-hand doesn't need to be main-hand,two-handed doesn't need to be dual wielded,underwater doesn't need to be terrestrial.

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