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(Roaming) Immob druid vs ele is almost unwinnable. Willing to bet that ele isn't the only victim


solemn.9608

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@"solemn.9608" said:See... you type a lot of words, but you don't really say much. You're not open to new information. You're not willing to change your mind about druid. You want the players to submit like obedient dogs to an obviously broken build/mechanic.Which build? The ele or the druid?

Yesterday I met a tempest that I had a slugfest with. We fought for minutes. I couldnt kill him because he had so much healing, cleansing, evades, blocks, etc. He barely scratched me because he had too little damage. It was just multiple times of me getting him down to 50% hp and him tanking it up again. Eventually I got a +1 (a mediocre one) and a chase commenced literally from NE garri to north hills - and we still failed to kill him because he was effectivly immune to CC and kept healing while we hit him.

Of course he whispered "haha" to me. Because we couldnt kill him. As if he was being useful or skillful in any way. Not much self reflection there.

Should I call eles OP because of that? Because by the logic of these threads I should.

But heres the thing - with a decent bursty +1 I know we would have broken that ele like a twig. Because I know what builds/classes I'm good against and what classes I'm bad against when I run on my roaming condi engineer. Slow ranged condi + anti-range anti-condi does not compute. My build is bad against eles with those kinds of builds and this foe in particular I could still get to 50% while he couldnt touch me. I've met far better eles than that on far better builds. Because GW2 is still a heavily classs and build based game. Some are carried by them.

But fuck it I'll follow your lead because I couldnt kill this ele - ALL ELES ARE OP KAPPA!

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@mtnjkbm.7452 said:

@knite.1542 said:What changes would you suggest to balance this druid build, OP?

Delete trailblazer stats from wvw for everyone/every class. Or dont delete them for the sake of build diversity (lol) but lower the stats by 50%.

People would just switch to Dire or started mixing other stats to get still tanky af and spread condies left and right, it won't fix it in long run, sadly.Condi cap need to come back to PvP and WvW or even better, prevent reapplication within x seconds of the same condi if it was cleansed or expired, so you won't get like 20 Torment stacks 1 second after you've cleansed 15 stacks. Another thing that must happen is to remove circus traits that do chain reactions like you use whatever skill x and it activates trait abc which have like whatever bleed which will activate another fgh trait which will apply blind and others. Not mentioning to give proper animations and bug fixes.A-net should from the very beginning of the game make sure that condies would be supplementary damage/soft cc, not the main source of it.

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Just want to add Earth/water based tempest does well against this. One build doesn't counter all - and immob druid has some very glaring weakness; crowd control, high incoming conditions/boon corrupt, only capable in 1v1's, mobility is isn't very good and can be caught by many classes.

The harder version to fight of this is actually immob soulbeast. Since they can rapidly clear conditions, have better sustain, and mobility. As a ranger main, and former druid main - I absolutely hate this troll low skill build that druids are forced into within WvW. I hope it is removed but druid is made to have a function more than immob spam. It can longer generate decent might even with full harriers, the heals are gated by celestial avatar, and staff sucks for anything more than the immob/and sub par healing wall (mainly used to stop incoming projectiles).

With that being said, I rolfstomped a raging immob beast many, many times - to the point he felt compelled to whisper me combined with face slamming into me with his condi mirage friend even though I was in the center of a zerg at that point. The class I was playing at the time: boon corrupt scourge with high condi transfer. Sent all that bs immob back to him, used objects to make him forced to fight within close range of me, etc. I wouldn't suggest fighting this 1v1 in open field unless you are specced for countering that trash build. As a competent roamer as you said you are (winning all 1v1's-X's against all other builds but this) you should be utilizing terrain/objects, etc to your advantage.

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@mtnjkbm.7452 said:

@"solemn.9608" said:See... you type a lot of words, but you don't really say much. You're not open to new information. You're not willing to change your mind about druid. You want the players to submit like obedient dogs to an obviously broken build/mechanic.Which build? The ele or the druid?

Yesterday I met a tempest that I had a slugfest with. We fought for minutes. I couldnt kill him because he had so much healing, cleansing, evades, blocks, etc. He barely scratched me because he had too little damage. It was just multiple times of me getting him down to 50% hp and him tanking it up again. Eventually I got a +1 (a mediocre one) and a chase commenced literally from NE garri to north hills - and we
still
failed to kill him because he was effectivly immune to CC and kept healing while we hit him.

Of course he whispered "haha" to me. Because we couldnt kill him. As if he was being useful or skillful in any way. Not much self reflection there.

Should I call eles OP because of that? Because by the logic of these threads I should.

But heres the thing - with a decent bursty +1 I know we would have broken that ele like a twig. Because
I know
what builds/classes I'm good against and what classes I'm bad against when I run on my roaming condi engineer. Slow ranged condi + anti-range anti-condi does not compute. My build is bad against eles with those kinds of builds and this foe in particular I could
still
get to 50% while he couldnt touch me. I've met
far
better eles than that on
far
better builds. Because GW2
is
still a heavily classs and build based game. Some are carried by them.

But kitten it I'll follow your lead because I couldnt kill this ele - ALL ELES ARE OP KAPPA!

U missed the point. If the ele u fought could have pressured you to near death or death while tanking your dmg like you described, you would have the problem op had with the druid and you could argue, the spec which enables cerain builds shouldnt exist in wvw (
cough
trailblazer
cough
) Just tanking dmg and selfsustaining isnt op or hard with dedicated supportclasses and minstrel gear which the ele was certainly running.. on the flipside he dealt no dmg. The problem are condi tank builds for noobs who spec into max selfsustain AND currently pump out insane dmg cause of cover condition application like condi druid whos reapplying pulsing imob also counts as condition or condi herald and (still) condi thief. And, its not about the condi dmg in particular, since u could also run a trailblazer burn weaver if ure bored and/or lost a brain. Its all about the amount of different conditions applied at the same time...over and over again, without much effort, while almost running supportlike specs (well maybe lesser boonuptime)Was that the point? I fail to see the point. Any class can do that. Case of point... I was running trailblazer/dire.
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Really the problem is just ancient seeds. It's also not that druid is particularly overpowered, it's that it leads to gameplay that I can hardly imagine anyone finds particularly fun.

The design on the thing is absolutely rancid. In a game where being stunlocked/immobed forever is a pretty big issue. How does the design.

"When you damage a CCed played, immobilize them"

make it through?

Now I do think druid should get some compensation for that trait if it got reworked as it's really a large part of why one would pick up druid, but essentially having a 60 sec cd elite skill on a 10 sec cd isn't it.

But really immobilize overall needs toning down and contrary to what anet said on their stream.

It is absolutely mostly a ranger problem. The pulsing roots are by far the most annoying kinds of immobilize.

Being able to dodge while immobilized (without clearing it), would be a great solution without having to nerf anything, as then you can just get out of the roots and they'd just force you to use a dodge instead of needing either resistance or a big clear+a fast dodge.

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@mtnjkbm.7452 said:

Yesterday I met a tempest that I had a slugfest with. We fought for minutes. I couldnt kill him because he had so much healing, cleansing, evades, blocks, etc.
He barely scratched me because he had too little damage.

If the ele u fought could have pressured you to near death or death while tanking your dmg like you described, you would have the problem op had with the druid
and you could argue, the spec which enables certain builds shouldnt exist in wvw (
cough
trailblazer
cough
)
Just tanking dmg and selfsustaining isnt op or hard with dedicated supportclasses and minstrel gear which the ele was certainly running.. cause on the flipside he dealt no dmg.

Was that the point? I fail to see the point.

exactly!

here is hope this helps
  • build which is only made to sustain and heal while not dealing any significant dmg = not op
  • build which is made to sustain and heal while dealing massive condi dmg and almost perma ccing at the same time = op

hope this helpsThe point still being... what? Druid is another enemy thats annoying to fight, its true. But them being trailblazer usually make it
easier
to fight them. Its the power sustain with insane healing and mobility that outsustain me. In general a condi built ranger dont.

There are things that enables certain condi builds to be OP. Its called runes and its rather specific to the worst offenders. The rest of the meta revolves around power.

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If you take immobilize, you're going to have to give more stuns, stealth, or stability. Ranger is squishy as all get out (if you want to do damage); I don't get why people here don't see it--more than likely low skill ceiling on the forums. So you either go down the thief route and give us a lot more stealth, the warrior route with some stuns / stability, etc.

As a druid, in the past month I've been caught offguard by one other druid and it was indeed condi. I was more caught offguard that anyone was actually using the shortbow when you can walk out of its range. Said druid was also with 5 other people so they weren't roaming.

Why is it though, that for instance guardian can have block, ele can have barrier, theif stealth/super evades, necro dual health bars, etc. but ranger has nothing outside of...immobilize? Which is only on druid and you still have to worry about the pet that doesn't work half the time and 80% of them are speed bugged (if they weren't you all would bring a flood of tears on here).

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@mtnjkbm.7452 said:

@"knite.1542" said:What changes would you suggest to balance this druid build, OP?

Delete trailblazer stats from wvw for everyone/every class. Or dont delete them for the sake of build diversity (lol) but lower the stats by 50%.

People would just switch to Dire or started mixing other stats to get still tanky af and spread condies left and right, it won't fix it in long run, sadly.Condi cap need to come back to PvP and WvW or even better, prevent reapplication within x seconds of the same condi if it was cleansed or expired, so you won't get like 20 Torment stacks 1 second after you've cleansed 15 stacks. Another thing that must happen is to remove circus traits that do chain reactions like you use whatever skill x and it activates trait abc which have like whatever bleed which will activate another fgh trait which will apply blind and others. Not mentioning to give proper animations and bug fixes.A-net should from the very beginning of the game make sure that condies would be supplementary damage/soft cc, not the main source of it.

although i agree that only deleting trailblazer or gutting it wouldnt be enough, i dont think dire ar apothecary ect would achieve the same results since the buffed condi duration through trailblazer plays a big role in 20 torment stacks staying 20 for 5-10 seconds, or rapidly decreasing within 1-3 seconds and therefore not dealing the same ammount of dmg.to come back to OPs topic, i have no real problem with "circus traits" of any build besides druid entanglement myself.while condi herald might be one of the most oppressive builds in wvw roaming right now, u can just disengage if u realize what build he is running, and u dont have to keep fighting it.

condi druid on the other hand wont let u come far with all his cc and okayish chase potential on staff.

Uhm actually the biggest offender in condirev builds is this: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Superior_Rune_of_Tormenting

50% extra torment duration plus heal whenever torment is applied with no icd.

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@Voltekka.2375 said:

@"knite.1542" said:What changes would you suggest to balance this druid build, OP?

Delete trailblazer stats from wvw for everyone/every class. Or dont delete them for the sake of build diversity (lol) but lower the stats by 50%.

People would just switch to Dire or started mixing other stats to get still tanky af and spread condies left and right, it won't fix it in long run, sadly.Condi cap need to come back to PvP and WvW or even better, prevent reapplication within x seconds of the same condi if it was cleansed or expired, so you won't get like 20 Torment stacks 1 second after you've cleansed 15 stacks. Another thing that must happen is to remove circus traits that do chain reactions like you use whatever skill x and it activates trait abc which have like whatever bleed which will activate another fgh trait which will apply blind and others. Not mentioning to give proper animations and bug fixes.A-net should from the very beginning of the game make sure that condies would be supplementary damage/soft cc, not the main source of it.

although i agree that only deleting trailblazer or gutting it wouldnt be enough, i dont think dire ar apothecary ect would achieve the same results since the buffed condi duration through trailblazer plays a big role in 20 torment stacks staying 20 for 5-10 seconds, or rapidly decreasing within 1-3 seconds and therefore not dealing the same ammount of dmg.to come back to OPs topic, i have no real problem with "circus traits" of any build besides druid entanglement myself.while condi herald might be one of the most oppressive builds in wvw roaming right now, u can just disengage if u realize what build he is running, and u dont have to keep fighting it.

condi druid on the other hand wont let u come far with all his cc and okayish chase potential on staff.

Uhm actually the biggest offender in condirev builds is this:

50% extra torment duration plus heal whenever torment is applied with no icd.

If you can avoid the weaponswap condis, dodge the pull and have cleansing sigils, you will generally be fine vs most condi revs as most are relying on the inability of the general playerbase to dodge AoE. If all else fails, play a condi DE and nuke them from out of their effective range.

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@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

@"knite.1542" said:What changes would you suggest to balance this druid build, OP?

Delete trailblazer stats from wvw for everyone/every class. Or dont delete them for the sake of build diversity (lol) but lower the stats by 50%.

People would just switch to Dire or started mixing other stats to get still tanky af and spread condies left and right, it won't fix it in long run, sadly.Condi cap need to come back to PvP and WvW or even better, prevent reapplication within x seconds of the same condi if it was cleansed or expired, so you won't get like 20 Torment stacks 1 second after you've cleansed 15 stacks. Another thing that must happen is to remove circus traits that do chain reactions like you use whatever skill x and it activates trait abc which have like whatever bleed which will activate another fgh trait which will apply blind and others. Not mentioning to give proper animations and bug fixes.A-net should from the very beginning of the game make sure that condies would be supplementary damage/soft cc, not the main source of it.

although i agree that only deleting trailblazer or gutting it wouldnt be enough, i dont think dire ar apothecary ect would achieve the same results since the buffed condi duration through trailblazer plays a big role in 20 torment stacks staying 20 for 5-10 seconds, or rapidly decreasing within 1-3 seconds and therefore not dealing the same ammount of dmg.to come back to OPs topic, i have no real problem with "circus traits" of any build besides druid entanglement myself.while condi herald might be one of the most oppressive builds in wvw roaming right now, u can just disengage if u realize what build he is running, and u dont have to keep fighting it.

condi druid on the other hand wont let u come far with all his cc and okayish chase potential on staff.

Uhm actually the biggest offender in condirev builds is this:

50% extra torment duration plus heal whenever torment is applied with no icd.

If you can avoid the weaponswap condis, dodge the pull and have cleansing sigils, you will generally be fine vs most condi revs as most are relying on the inability of the general playerbase to dodge AoE. If all else fails, play a condi DE and nuke them from out of their effective range.Now
that
is something beside the point. Does condi revs ever die? Yes what a shocker. They do.

Not that you're not both right. You are. Its not the condi on a condi rev thats the issue. Anyone can fight that condi - especially since he's relying on torment alone, not like a necro vomitting condis.

Whats OP here is the rune heal in combination with that condi. Its not trailblazer that allows the condi rev to bunker to the max - its the insane healing. Deleting trailblazer - and dire for that matter - would do exactly zero to change that because you get zero to healing from trailblazer or dire.

Now add a minstrel firebrand pocket healer on top.

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It feels like this is one of those threads where things do not have to be mutually exclusive.

The immob spam that exists shouldn't exist. I can't find a reasonable excuse for it (even as someone who enjoys to dabble in Ranger builds). The current condi spam is obviously also over the top and it was surprising that the most recent patch came with more power nerfs while leaving condi intact (I would have assumed that this would have been "the condi patch").

At the same time, like others have said, there are some ways to deal with the build. There are other condi builds that are even more ridiculous at the moment and the Ele as a class has it far from the worst against all those condi builds since Ele has a pretty fair amount of ways to deal with condi overall.

So the over-the-top tone isn't necessary but the game would clearly be better without builds that can spam immob like that.

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@"subversiontwo.7501" said:It feels like this is one of those threads where things do not have to be mutually exclusive.

The immob spam that exists shouldn't exist. I can't find a reasonable excuse for it (even as someone who enjoys to dabble in Ranger builds). The current condi spam is obviously also over the top and it was surprising that the most recent patch came with more power nerfs while leaving condi intact (I would have assumed that this would have been "the condi patch").

At the same time, like others have said, there are some ways to deal with the build. There are other condi builds that are even more ridiculous at the moment and the Ele as a class has it far from the worst against all those condi builds since Ele has a pretty fair amount of ways to deal with condi overall.

So the over-the-top tone isn't necessary but the game would clearly be better without builds that can spam immob like that.

I find the only real way to keep a talk about ele in the wvw forms is to have it a class vs ele or to only partly talk about ele in other ways. Oddly is not the same rule for the other classes on the forms.

Weaver is for sure lacking in its swap speed and the players ability to control that swap. I think weaver in relationship to a 1v1 or even a 5v5 vs a root ranger a 3 sec cap swap cd (tempest needs to have this 3 sec gobble cd on swaps as well but it gets its overloads with in that 3 sec and core ele has no gobble cd on its swaps) as well as giving weaver a means of inverting its atuments (fire water to water fire) with an f5 with a cd of 3 to 5 sec out side of atument cds.

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@"solemn.9608" said:inb4 "lol roaming in 2020" please don't bother with this comment, you'd be contributing nothing to the thread.

Usually when I criticize immob druid I am told "just run more cleanses l0l", "just dodge" or "warriors can break out of immob just roll a warrior", "they don't do much damage while you're immobed, just cleanse it & break the vine" which is categorically false because condi is overperforming across all specs right now and I can't "cleanse, break the vine & run" because as soon as I do that there is another vine, and then another vine, and then another vine, and, am I clear yet? - or I'm off-rotation, chilled, stunned again etc etc, another vine, etc...

The fact that the only build I've discovered for ele that can frequently survive for longer than 15 seconds (and sometimes win) vs immob-spam-druid builds is water/fire/weaver running every single cleanse trait & utility in the game alongside antitoxin rune and cleansing sigil ... is nothing short of absurd. Try fighting a power build with that full-cleanse build and see how it goes, it's not pretty. I shouldn't have to re-spec every time I run into a druid in WvW just because they're insanely broken.

I understand that some matchups will be sub-optimal. You can't win every 1v1. Sometimes their build will out-perform your build. Yes, I know, it's part of the game. But there should not exist a 1v1 matchup where it is almost entirely impossible to win for an entire class with the exception of one build that hits like a wet noodle but can survive the condi spam.

How has this not been nerfed to the ground yet? There is simply too much immob spam from druid.

Ancient Seeds is the sole culprit. You don't have any issue with immob from soulbeast or core, they have access to immob but not every 10 seconds.

I requested long time ago to have that trait totally deleted from game, it is not fun to play with or against. I guess because Anet needs to replace that trait it is taking that long.

Instead the effect could be included in the Vine Surge, Staff#4 , that would be cool. It is a very visible skill which can be avoided and promote active gameplay.

Actually here is the thread where i explain why this trait is so bad and some alternatives to it.https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1290933

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@Dawdler.8521 said:

@"knite.1542" said:What changes would you suggest to balance this druid build, OP?

Delete trailblazer stats from wvw for everyone/every class. Or dont delete them for the sake of build diversity (lol) but lower the stats by 50%.

People would just switch to Dire or started mixing other stats to get still tanky af and spread condies left and right, it won't fix it in long run, sadly.Condi cap need to come back to PvP and WvW or even better, prevent reapplication within x seconds of the same condi if it was cleansed or expired, so you won't get like 20 Torment stacks 1 second after you've cleansed 15 stacks. Another thing that must happen is to remove circus traits that do chain reactions like you use whatever skill x and it activates trait abc which have like whatever bleed which will activate another fgh trait which will apply blind and others. Not mentioning to give proper animations and bug fixes.A-net should from the very beginning of the game make sure that condies would be supplementary damage/soft cc, not the main source of it.

although i agree that only deleting trailblazer or gutting it wouldnt be enough, i dont think dire ar apothecary ect would achieve the same results since the buffed condi duration through trailblazer plays a big role in 20 torment stacks staying 20 for 5-10 seconds, or rapidly decreasing within 1-3 seconds and therefore not dealing the same ammount of dmg.to come back to OPs topic, i have no real problem with "circus traits" of any build besides druid entanglement myself.while condi herald might be one of the most oppressive builds in wvw roaming right now, u can just disengage if u realize what build he is running, and u dont have to keep fighting it.

condi druid on the other hand wont let u come far with all his cc and okayish chase potential on staff.

Uhm actually the biggest offender in condirev builds is this:

50% extra torment duration plus heal whenever torment is applied with no icd.

If you can avoid the weaponswap condis, dodge the pull and have cleansing sigils, you will generally be fine vs most condi revs as most are relying on the inability of the general playerbase to dodge AoE. If all else fails, play a condi DE and nuke them from out of their effective range.Now
that
is something beside the point. Does condi revs ever die? Yes what a shocker. They do.

Not that you're not both right. You are. Its not the condi on a condi rev thats the issue. Anyone can fight that condi - especially since he's relying on torment alone, not like a necro vomitting condis.

Whats OP here is the rune heal in combination with that condi. Its not trailblazer that allows the condi rev to bunker to the max - its the
insane
healing. Deleting trailblazer - and dire for that matter - would do exactly zero to change that because you get zero to healing from trailblazer or dire.

Now add a minstrel firebrand pocket healer on top.

Yes, that is a very good point. I was more addressing the "X has no counters NEEEERF" mentality that some people (not you) have, so my reply wasn't really a reply to you I guess (It was late when I posted, blame that lol).

But yeah, the healing. I was running tormenting runes on a trailblazer DE at one point, and the heals from runes plus SA traits added up to around 2k per sneak attack. Not massive compared to Rev as their torment application is AoE, but it is definitely noticable when you have 16k base health and you start spamming dancing dagger in a group.

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