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The Dec 1st balance patch has a lot of misses on it and should probably just be reverted.


Master Ketsu.4569

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@Quadox.7834 said:ppl gotta understand that the main reason thief has been a mes counter isnt just plasma its bcs:

  1. thief gets open
  2. mes tries to attack back
  3. thief dodges/ports away and resets b4 mes can get out its slow dmg
  4. mes has bad resustain (on meta builds) so cant reset quickly so thief doesnt need to keep up consistent pressure
  5. theif gets another open
  6. repeatdeadeye and sd are the best examples of this, dp is more managableand the reason good condi mirage can kill thief is because it does super quick counterattack (sw3 +jaunt + f2) and has some aoe pressure (axe 2), unlike something like mirror blade + mindwrack or trying to summon a phantasmal berserker

Big true. As well as the ability to stay in stealth long enough that clones stand there like a confused John Travolta and become useless.

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@wevh.2903 said:

@"Terrorhuz.4695" said:Can't hear you, won't hear you, I'm listening to the cries of a hundred thousand thiefs carried by plasma being yeeted back to the dust

plasma is still going to be OP as kitten

You can rupt it so if you are enough good to press a skill while thief is casting plasma it has counter play.

yes, assuming thief is not good enough to hide it behind los/stealth/teleport

Stealth is ruptable too , teleport like using shadow step to cast plasma? Xd , i saw helseth consistent winning vs good thieves , im not saying mesmer>thief but you have a very decent counterplay after nerfs

its called being efficient, when you stealth ( which you WILL do as thief ) you might as well use plasma before engaging, same thing with shadowstep, if you get CC'ed and have to shadowstep, you might as well plasma before going back in.I also watched helseth, and against good thiefs best he does is puts some pressure before he runs away to kite spots, there is no " winning ", unless not losing is counted as a win, but even then thief kitten off, and gangbangs your team somewhere else with the plasma you "give" it.I played AT against thiefs, if you make mistake you die, if they make mistake they almost die and kitten off, and ~20s later you will hear on comms someone complain that thief with kitten plasma ganked them :D

Without binding powder you can rupt thief stealth with mantra , you cant simply stealth in front of a mesmer or use health. Helsenth didnt run to kiting spots unless needed , also like u said about breaking los mes can abuse kiting spots too. Right now i think thief v mesmer is a very fair match .

blinding power blinds, so no. you cant rupt it unless you remove blind first, and no, mesmer vs thief is not a fair match lol

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@Anomaly.7612 said:

@Quadox.7834 said:ppl gotta understand that the main reason thief has been a mes counter isnt just plasma its bcs:
  1. thief gets open
  2. mes tries to attack back
  3. thief dodges/ports away and resets b4 mes can get out its slow dmg
  4. mes has bad resustain (on meta builds) so cant reset quickly so thief doesnt need to keep up consistent pressure
  5. theif gets another open
  6. repeatdeadeye and sd are the best examples of this, dp is more managableand the reason good condi mirage can kill thief is because it does super quick counterattack (sw3 +jaunt + f2) and has some aoe pressure (axe 2), unlike something like mirror blade + mindwrack or trying to summon a phantasmal berserker

Big true. As well as the ability to stay in stealth long enough that clones stand there like a confused John Travolta and become useless.

Or the phantasm that I summoned 15 minutes ago just gets tired of being catfished by a jerk who disappeared god knows where (but I know it's here, there's the smoke) and either attacks some random guy or flat out disappears lmao

Also rupting stealth of thief is one of the most useless things you can do. You still can't deal meaningful damage from distance and the man can just heartseeker again; unless you run pistol there's no way to actually stop a thief from stealthing

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@Shao.7236 said:

I don't personally agree with the 1 Stability second pulse as the game is full on clunk with 1 second intervals, but I would agree with it being 2 seconds like before. People can always remove stab on CC to effectively nullify the skill so I don't see why it's a good thing to encourage players to CC someone in the middle of the road because you can't have 2 stacks for defending your area of the skill that's being pushed now.

Honestly the best change would just be reverting the skill to October 01, 2019:

Initial stab: 2Pulse: 1.5 stabRange: 600CD: 10s

The buff they gave it that made it 3s was IMO an actual overbuff, this coming from someone who used Jalis a lot. The nerf they gave it was over the top, and may actually be bugged because I am noticing you don't get initial stab at all anymore sometimes.

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@Master Ketsu.4569 said:

I don't personally agree with the 1 Stability second pulse as the game is full on clunk with 1 second intervals, but I would agree with it being 2 seconds like before. People can always remove stab on CC to effectively nullify the skill so I don't see why it's a good thing to encourage players to CC someone in the middle of the road because you can't have 2 stacks for defending your area of the skill that's being pushed now.

Honestly the best change would just be reverting the skill to October 01, 2019:

Initial stab: 2Pulse: 1.5 stabRange: 600CD: 10s

The buff they gave it that made it 3s was IMO an actual overbuff, this coming from someone who used Jalis a lot. The nerf they gave it was over the top, and may actually be bugged because I am noticing you don't get initial stab at all anymore sometimes.

If you want a range nerf, keep it to sPvP and out of WvW and PvE.

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@Master Ketsu.4569 said:

I don't personally agree with the 1 Stability second pulse as the game is full on clunk with 1 second intervals, but I would agree with it being 2 seconds like before. People can always remove stab on CC to effectively nullify the skill so I don't see why it's a good thing to encourage players to CC someone in the middle of the road because you can't have 2 stacks for defending your area of the skill that's being pushed now.

Honestly the best change would just be reverting the skill to October 01, 2019:

Initial stab: 2Pulse: 1.5 stabRange: 600CD: 10s

The buff they gave it that made it 3s was IMO an actual overbuff, this coming from someone who used Jalis a lot. The nerf they gave it was over the top, and may actually be bugged because I am noticing you don't get initial stab at all anymore sometimes.

In current practice, 1 second is definitely not enough. Also Initial Stability does come out but doesn't seem to be in proper sync with pulses which leaves holes at the start.

It can be 1.5 although I did enjoy 2 seconds with the old duration increase from Retribution, it didn't feel unfair at all. With how 1 second feels, kinda like the old superspeed impossible odds, feels inconsistent.

The cooldown I'm still uncertain, it does make me vary my plays more because I swap too quickly in between, but I wouldn't deny that it throws off to have it on cooldown while swapping back to Jalis.

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@Shao.7236 said:

I don't personally agree with the 1 Stability second pulse as the game is full on clunk with 1 second intervals, but I would agree with it being 2 seconds like before. People can always remove stab on CC to effectively nullify the skill so I don't see why it's a good thing to encourage players to CC someone in the middle of the road because you can't have 2 stacks for defending your area of the skill that's being pushed now.

Honestly the best change would just be reverting the skill to October 01, 2019:

Initial stab: 2Pulse: 1.5 stabRange: 600CD: 10s

The buff they gave it that made it 3s was IMO an actual overbuff, this coming from someone who used Jalis a lot. The nerf they gave it was over the top, and may actually be bugged because I am noticing you don't get initial stab at all anymore sometimes.

In current practice, 1 second is definitely not enough. Also Initial Stability does come out but doesn't seem to be in proper sync with pulses which leaves holes at the start.

It can be 1.5 although I did enjoy 2 seconds with the old duration increase from Retribution, it didn't feel unfair at all. With how 1 second feels, kinda like the old superspeed impossible odds, feels inconsistent.

The cooldown I'm still uncertain, it does make me vary my plays more because I swap too quickly in between, but I wouldn't deny that it throws off to have it on cooldown while swapping back to Jalis.

If game is shit and cant time stab between pulses I see no reason not to increase stab to 1,1s or 1,25s to ensure that doesnt happen

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@Leonidrex.5649 said:

I don't personally agree with the 1 Stability second pulse as the game is full on clunk with 1 second intervals, but I would agree with it being 2 seconds like before. People can always remove stab on CC to effectively nullify the skill so I don't see why it's a good thing to encourage players to CC someone in the middle of the road because you can't have 2 stacks for defending your area of the skill that's being pushed now.

Honestly the best change would just be reverting the skill to October 01, 2019:

Initial stab: 2Pulse: 1.5 stabRange: 600CD: 10s

The buff they gave it that made it 3s was IMO an actual overbuff, this coming from someone who used Jalis a lot. The nerf they gave it was over the top, and may actually be bugged because I am noticing you don't get initial stab at all anymore sometimes.

In current practice, 1 second is definitely not enough. Also Initial Stability does come out but doesn't seem to be in proper sync with pulses which leaves holes at the start.

It can be 1.5 although I did enjoy 2 seconds with the old duration increase from Retribution, it didn't feel unfair at all. With how 1 second feels, kinda like the old superspeed impossible odds, feels inconsistent.

The cooldown I'm still uncertain, it does make me vary my plays more because I swap too quickly in between, but I wouldn't deny that it throws off to have it on cooldown while swapping back to Jalis.

If game is kitten and cant time stab between pulses I see no reason not to increase stab to 1,1s or 1,25s to ensure that doesnt happen

Man, as long as Revenant doesn't get CC'd unless it's the pressure of 2+ players or someone with the means strip stability with a CC which is fairly common given it's pulsing, it will always be the first boon to be removed, the skill boon duration was slightly broken but had it's obvious downsides. (Such as getting CC'd by someone downstate because of Revocation.)

It's a limited area that should reward players for staying in, not be at risk so easily still with how expensive the skill is now, can't stunbreak if freshly used like any legends which Jalis is meant to alleviate that because one or the other sustain is a large investment. Besides, if not hit by Weakness, doesn't make immune to damage.

So initial Stability does need to come back at 2 while something needed to be done for consistency.

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@Kachros.4751 said:

@Kachros.4751 said:This was... highly questionable to read, the nerf thief got was good but wasnt enough. If they left shortbow 5 as it is you can get 2.7k range from spamming it in 2 seconds which isnt remotely fine.this is concept question .. We talk not about value, we talk about mobility, stealth, and damage domination vs another .. Thats should be present. Why ? Because this is thief.By that concept necro should have conditions and minions, guard - powerful traps, and etc ..

yeah but having literally 5k range from mobility and able to get to the other side of the map in less than 10 seconds while having stealth for about a min permanently AND gatekeeping squishy sidenoders... thats too much. Its a hit and run class which should be easy to kill but it has damage reduction traits which contradicts it, both its mobility AND damage reduction shouldve been nerfed so they done 50% of it.

Ngl i agree with the mobility nerf but if its gonna be slower and more likely to get caught then i dont think the dmg reduction should be nerfed. Not a thief main btw just looking at it from another standpoint.I also think they nerf should have been a range nerf like they did to jaunt. Not a mesmer main either

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@memausz.7264 said:Lol Renegades just switched to Shiro and are still the driving force of games by CC, dmg, and conditions AND are tanky AND fast AND port.

That's why I said they overnerfed Jalis and undernerfed Kalla. When it comes to Rev, nerfing one legend to fix problems of another legend has been proven time and time and time again to be a bad balance path that never accomplishes its intended goals.

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@Ohimi.4107 said:

I also think they nerf should have been a range nerf like they did to jaunt. Not a mesmer main either

Jaunt never received a range nerf. It was actually the opposite. They buffed its range from 400 to 450 early on. its nerfs were a reduction in physical damage, reduction in confusion duration, increase in count cooldown recharge, and a reduction from 3 counts to 2.

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clowns still don't understand, long stealth is because of pistol , not because of shadow arts. People who play on gold+ never use shadow arts on thief at all as DD , maybe as core thief but even with core thief acrobatics much better. Wait until anet nerf black powder and shadow shot and you gonna see how bunch of thiefs gonna stay 90% fight outside of stealth because cloak and dagger total trash

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