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weaver is clunky


Stand The Wall.6987

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i got into this a while back but i'm going to simplify it this time. seems like weaver has two trade offs, dual attacks are nice but they often get in the way of better skills, usually defensive ones. imo this is already a decent trade off. then there is the "decreased" cd of attunements. sure, its 4 sec but you're also locked out of swap for 4 sec as well. what do you guys think?

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Yep 3 years out and its still has the same problem from beta. I think tempest should have a 3 sec globle cd in-between swaps as well as weaver (tempest would get its overlode in that 3 sec as well) and core ele would have 0 globe cd in-between swaps. To make weaver feel less clunky there should be an F5 that lets you reviser your atuments so if your fire water your F5 will make you water fire. Lets put that F5 on a 3 sec cd as well.

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Weaver was made to be played with sword, which has very fluid transitions between attunements thanks to amazing weapon slot 2 skills.
What I'm trying to say is that sword on ele is so good that it compensates for how clunky weaver is. I often find myself playing weaver just so I can equip sword and get those sweet evades/ gap closers every other second. The only other weaver used weapon I have seen is scepter for fresh air shenanigans or the occasional unravel dagger/dagger.

If you find weaver clucky to use even after you get used to the rotations try implementing unravel into them. It has 2 stacks on 25 sec cooldown with 5 sec duration, so you can get 2 full attunes out of 1 cast

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I know when I started playing Weaver I felt the same way. It takes a lot of time and practice to really get the flow down. There will always be times when you mess up your rotation of elements, but as you play more you will learn the situations you're in and be able to attune accordingly. If you are really troubled with the attunement charges, you can always run specs like Fresh Air to help you rotate out of a less useful attunement into Air quicker. Make sure to take Arcane and Weave Self for more duration reductions. And of course there is always Unravel as well. If you're concerned about defense, consider using Sword. Sword has a lot of defense built into it (two evades, pulsing barrier/stab and two hard cc skills) which makes it a good choice for surviving. Toss in Focus for good measure and you don't even need your 3 skill to survive anymore. But most of all you just really need to spend a lot of time with Weaver. This is probably the only way to really master the limitations of the attunement swapping.

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I think weaver is meant to pair with Arcane and optimally we are "suppose" to keep switching between attunements to not only receive those boons but to do the pretty interesting dual attacks. It doesn't go well if you remain in just one element continuously. The elite skill IMO is a huge bust though because the window is so short that you have to focus more on simply changing attunements then attacking so what is the point of getting all those weave boosts? The end result isnt really worth it. The efficiency is lost in the gimmick.

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@fuzzyp.6295 said:I know when I started playing Weaver I felt the same way. It takes a lot of time and practice to really get the flow down. There will always be times when you mess up your rotation of elements, but as you play more you will learn the situations you're in and be able to attune accordingly. If you are really troubled with the attunement charges, you can always run specs like Fresh Air to help you rotate out of a less useful attunement into Air quicker. Make sure to take Arcane and Weave Self for more duration reductions. And of course there is always Unravel as well. If you're concerned about defense, consider using Sword. Sword has a lot of defense built into it (two evades, pulsing barrier/stab and two hard cc skills) which makes it a good choice for surviving. Toss in Focus for good measure and you don't even need your 3 skill to survive anymore. But most of all you just really need to spend a lot of time with Weaver. This is probably the only way to really master the limitations of the attunement swapping.

Skill rotation to rotation to attunement switch to rotation to attunement switch to attunement switch to rotation to rotation! I'm a clicker so maybe I should keybind lol

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@"fuzzyp.6295" said:I know when I started playing Weaver I felt the same way. It takes a lot of time and practice to really get the flow down. There will always be times when you mess up your rotation of elements, but as you play more you will learn the situations you're in and be able to attune accordingly. If you are really troubled with the attunement charges, you can always run specs like Fresh Air to help you rotate out of a less useful attunement into Air quicker. Make sure to take Arcane and Weave Self for more duration reductions. And of course there is always Unravel as well. If you're concerned about defense, consider using Sword. Sword has a lot of defense built into it (two evades, pulsing barrier/stab and two hard cc skills) which makes it a good choice for surviving. Toss in Focus for good measure and you don't even need your 3 skill to survive anymore. But most of all you just really need to spend a lot of time with Weaver. This is probably the only way to really master the limitations of the attunement swapping.

That's pretty much my experience as well. It wasn't really clicking with me at first and I gave it up several times before I was able to appreciate it, but you're right about those sword 2 and dagger 3 skills. Dagger 3 skills share some of the issues with the 4-5 skills of being locked in by a choice made 4 seconds previously, but since you can choose your current attunement you still have some options in terms of which 3 skill becomes available on the swap. Unravel may be used to cover you when none of those options are favorable. Sword rarely needs it. The 2 skills offer mobility, evasion, healing, CC, damage, and combo fields, too! If you can't find a favorable swap for your next rotation, you probably just need to practice.

I used to call it clunky, but once you get the hang of it weaver actually flows very nicely, in my opinion.

Edit: I should probably add that I'm not saying it's in good shape. PvP/WvW nerfs were too much, staff and scepter are bad (although that's not just a weaver problem), and several of the skills have too long a cast time/animation and only feel right when you have quickness (which weaver can't generate!). But is it "clunky"? I used to say so and now I say the opposite. YMMV.

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@HotDelirium.7984 said:

@fuzzyp.6295 said:I know when I started playing Weaver I felt the same way. It takes a lot of time and practice to really get the flow down. There will always be times when you mess up your rotation of elements, but as you play more you will learn the situations you're in and be able to attune accordingly. If you are really troubled with the attunement charges, you can always run specs like Fresh Air to help you rotate out of a less useful attunement into Air quicker. Make sure to take Arcane and Weave Self for more duration reductions. And of course there is always Unravel as well. If you're concerned about defense, consider using Sword. Sword has a lot of defense built into it (two evades, pulsing barrier/stab and two hard cc skills) which makes it a good choice for surviving. Toss in Focus for good measure and you don't even need your 3 skill to survive anymore. But most of all you just really need to spend a lot of time with Weaver. This is probably the only way to really master the limitations of the attunement swapping.

Skill rotation to rotation to attunement switch to rotation to attunement switch to attunement switch to rotation to rotation! I'm a clicker so maybe I should keybind lol

A friend of my skill clicks on Weaver and she does fine, although her builds tend to run more sustain/condi heavy which offers more forgiving gameplay. I always highly recommend anyone who mains Ele rebind their attunement keys. Remapping it to Shift + 1-4 are good ones to consider. Even better yet, if you can, invest in a gaming mouse that has multiple buttons on the side to use for your attunements. It will take some time getting used to the mouse but once you get used to it, its fantastic and will 100% change your Ele game play. There are some pretty cheap mice you could get that range between $20-$30.

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this is not so much about weaver being clunky, that was just the title. its more about that the spec seemingly has 2 trade offs. i would like to hear anyone with an opposing opinion on why i'm wrong about the 2 trade off thing. i suppose it would be fine if there was no cd on double attuning (maybe no cd on switching attunes but cd on double attune?) but imo its just too much.

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The problem why it fells clunky is mainly because they nerfed alacrity which let the CDs be too high for a smooth rota also the arcane trait line became out of fashion (which gave shorter CD on attunements)because of the SoI nerf and the air trait line buff . Partially the corrected for this problem by decreasing the CD on some skills but some stuff is still hanging

Recently they nerfed also the might generation which increase the clunkiness . The last point is properly that some skill posi lock you like sword fire 2 or on stab meteorshower

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@"Stand The Wall.6987" said:this is not so much about weaver being clunky, that was just the title. its more about that the spec seemingly has 2 trade offs. i would like to hear anyone with an opposing opinion on why i'm wrong about the 2 trade off thing. i suppose it would be fine if there was no cd on double attuning (maybe no cd on switching attunes but cd on double attune?) but imo its just too much.

Well, I'd argue the idea of replacing the third skill with a new skill while still having access to the original skill if you double attune isn't actually any sort of trade off, it just adds more variability to how your play. Burning Speed, Shocking Aura, Geyser, Blinding Flash... they are all still there for you to use, you just need to fully commit to an attunement to use it. They even gave you an entire utility skill just for this purpose if its really what you're into, which synergies with one of the strongest Weaver grandmaster traits. If you really want to classify this as a "trade off" then we should count ourselves lucky. I'd take having more options as a trade off to losing one of our dodges any day! I also wonder why someone would play Weaver if you specifically run a build that needs those skills. Weaver's identity is in the dual attunements... like, why pick Reaper if you're never going to use Reaper Shroud?

Your second point of attunements getting a 4 second global recharge being a trade off has more merit. But I think that the recharge time change is the intended trade off for the class. Could the recharge time be less? Yeah, it could. I remember thinking the same thing when learning Weaver, I hated the extra attunement recharge on my other attunements. Using Weave Self feels really nice with that 2 second cool down. But after playing Weaver for so long... I just honestly don't even notice it anymore. I'm sure a lot of veteran Weavers can agree with that. I honestly can't stress this enough, with enough time on Weaver you just start to know your cool downs and rotate around them and it becomes second nature. In fact there are actually times I am grateful to the cool down time as well since it prevents you from accidentally double attuning and completely losing the benefit of the dual attacks. There needs to be a recharge on these attunement swaps because it just wouldn't be balanced if there wasn't.

Try playing Fresh Air weaver and count the amount of times you may accidentally attune to Air twice. You may find a new respect for the cool down.

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@Stand The Wall.6987 said:this is not so much about weaver being clunky, that was just the title. its more about that the spec seemingly has 2 trade offs. i would like to hear anyone with an opposing opinion on why i'm wrong about the 2 trade off thing. i suppose it would be fine if there was no cd on double attuning (maybe no cd on switching attunes but cd on double attune?) but imo its just too much.

Of all the specs, I'd say weaver is the one that has the biggest tradeoff. It also represents a dramatic shift from the core play style. So, success on a clever, game-changing design, but could it be improved? I favor the idea of Unravel as an F5 baseline. I think it's a fun and complex utility that can really help to compensate for some of the tradeoffs in weaver's design if used properly.

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A means of inventing your atuments as an F5 (fire water to water fire) that is outside of the atument cd as well as a hard 3 sec cd lock on aumtnets swaps for both weaver and tempets would go a long way to fixing weaver tempest and core ele (core ele would have no globle cd on swaps).

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@Jski.6180 said:A means of inventing your atuments as an F5 (fire water to water fire) that is outside of the atument cd as well as a hard 3 sec cd lock on aumtnets swaps for both weaver and tempets would go a long way to fixing weaver tempest and core ele (core ele would have no globle cd on swaps).

I don't understand this suggestion. If I'm currently in fire/water, then I was previously in water/x. Why would I want to switch back to water/x at that point? It means I have to rotate back through water/x and into x/water all over again when chances are I've already used the water skills (or why else would I have rotated into water in the first place?). All that just so I can access my 4 and 5 skill instantly? I'd prefer F5 Unravel as baseline to that.

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@AliamRationem.5172 said:

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:this is not so much about weaver being clunky, that was just the title. its more about that the spec seemingly has 2 trade offs. i would like to hear anyone with an opposing opinion on why i'm wrong about the 2 trade off thing. i suppose it would be fine if there was no cd on double attuning (maybe no cd on switching attunes but cd on double attune?) but imo its just too much.

Of all the specs, I'd say weaver is the one that has the biggest tradeoff. It also represents a dramatic shift from the core play style. So, success on a clever, game-changing design, but could it be improved? I favor the idea of Unravel as an F5 baseline. I think it's a fun and complex utility that can really help to compensate for some of the tradeoffs in weaver's design if used properly.

i've heard this before, but an f5 unravel doesn't make any sense if instead the ability was baked into the attune swap. it would be an extra unnecessary button. it would be an improvement tho.

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@AliamRationem.5172 said:

@Jski.6180 said:A means of inventing your atuments as an F5 (fire water to water fire) that is outside of the atument cd as well as a hard 3 sec cd lock on aumtnets swaps for both weaver and tempets would go a long way to fixing weaver tempest and core ele (core ele would have no globle cd on swaps).

I don't understand this suggestion. If I'm currently in fire/water, then I was previously in water/x. Why would I want to switch back to water/x at that point? It means I have to rotate back through water/x and into x/water all over again when chances are I've already used the water skills (or why else would I have rotated into water in the first place?). All that just so I can access my 4 and 5 skill instantly? I'd prefer F5 Unravel as baseline to that.

The ideal is to have a means of swaping to another atument set with out getting a free dule skill making the weaver class. so if your fire water your 1 and 2 are fire 3 the dule skill 4 and 5 are water. My suggestion would let the ele player inviead this to getting 1 and 2 water 3 the same dule skill and 4 and 5 becoming fire all outside of the stander atument swap cd of weaver. This means you have the abitly to changes your 1,2 4 ,5 skills faster as well as set up for you to hold your 4/5 skill as you want.

What is wrong with the weaver atm is you can only atument swap one way you can only chose what atument your going into 1 2 skills not so much the atument you where in 4 and 5. As i cant see anet letting ele swap the 2ed part of your atument only and the amount of programing something like that could take. Letting a weaver simply invert there atuments they are in would be the best chose.

Also it would work well with things like unravel where you could better chose what atument you will go full into in that moment. Weaver is about contorting part of your atument your in and i am asking for weaver to be able to control both atuments your in.

The other part of the 3 sec cap goblble cd is more of an suggestion to make core ele tempest and weaver different from each other and not just simply having tempest and weaver sifincaly stronger then the core ele class.

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@Jski.6180 said:

@Jski.6180 said:A means of inventing your atuments as an F5 (fire water to water fire) that is outside of the atument cd as well as a hard 3 sec cd lock on aumtnets swaps for both weaver and tempets would go a long way to fixing weaver tempest and core ele (core ele would have no globle cd on swaps).

I don't understand this suggestion. If I'm currently in fire/water, then I was previously in water/x. Why would I want to switch back to water/x at that point? It means I have to rotate back through water/x and into x/water all over again when chances are I've already used the water skills (or why else would I have rotated into water in the first place?). All that just so I can access my 4 and 5 skill instantly? I'd prefer F5 Unravel as baseline to that.

The ideal is to have a means of swaping to another atument set with out getting a free dule skill making the weaver class. so if your fire water your 1 and 2 are fire 3 the dule skill 4 and 5 are water. My suggestion would let the ele player inviead this to getting 1 and 2 water 3 the same dule skill and 4 and 5 becoming fire all outside of the stander atument swap cd of weaver. This means you have the abitly to changes your 1,2 4 ,5 skills faster as well as set up for you to hold your 4/5 skill as you want.

What is wrong with the weaver atm is you can only atument swap one way you can only chose what atument your going into 1 2 skills not so much the atument you where in 4 and 5. As i cant see anet letting ele swap the 2ed part of your atument only and the amount of programing something like that could take. Letting a weaver simply invert there atuments they are in would be the best chose.

Also it would work well with things like unravel where you could better chose what atument you will go full into in that moment. Weaver is about contorting part of your atument your in and i am asking for weaver to be able to control both atuments your in.

The other part of the 3 sec cap goblble cd is more of an suggestion to make core ele tempest and weaver different from each other and not just simply having tempest and weaver sifincaly stronger then the core ele class.

I'm having trouble understanding your explanation. How is swapping your mainhand and offhand attunements beneficial? It would leave you out of rotation with all of your skills on cooldown, wouldn't it? You'd almost have to use Unravel just to un-fuck yourself!

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@AliamRationem.5172 said:

@Jski.6180 said:A means of inventing your atuments as an F5 (fire water to water fire) that is outside of the atument cd as well as a hard 3 sec cd lock on aumtnets swaps for both weaver and tempets would go a long way to fixing weaver tempest and core ele (core ele would have no globle cd on swaps).

I don't understand this suggestion. If I'm currently in fire/water, then I was previously in water/x. Why would I want to switch back to water/x at that point? It means I have to rotate back through water/x and into x/water all over again when chances are I've already used the water skills (or why else would I have rotated into water in the first place?). All that just so I can access my 4 and 5 skill instantly? I'd prefer F5 Unravel as baseline to that.

The ideal is to have a means of swaping to another atument set with out getting a free dule skill making the weaver class. so if your fire water your 1 and 2 are fire 3 the dule skill 4 and 5 are water. My suggestion would let the ele player inviead this to getting 1 and 2 water 3 the same dule skill and 4 and 5 becoming fire all outside of the stander atument swap cd of weaver. This means you have the abitly to changes your 1,2 4 ,5 skills faster as well as set up for you to hold your 4/5 skill as you want.

What is wrong with the weaver atm is you can only atument swap one way you can only chose what atument your going into 1 2 skills not so much the atument you where in 4 and 5. As i cant see anet letting ele swap the 2ed part of your atument only and the amount of programing something like that could take. Letting a weaver simply invert there atuments they are in would be the best chose.

Also it would work well with things like unravel where you could better chose what atument you will go full into in that moment. Weaver is about contorting part of your atument your in and i am asking for weaver to be able to control both atuments your in.

The other part of the 3 sec cap goblble cd is more of an suggestion to make core ele tempest and weaver different from each other and not just simply having tempest and weaver sifincaly stronger then the core ele class.

I'm having trouble understanding your explanation. How is swapping your mainhand and offhand attunements beneficial? It would leave you out of rotation with all of your skills on cooldown, wouldn't it? You'd almost have to use Unravel just to un-kitten yourself!

You do not have to use it if you do not need to but its nice to be able to reivces the rotation as needed. It give the ele player more control over there 2 different atuments.

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@"Stand The Wall.6987" said:this is not so much about weaver being clunky, that was just the title. its more about that the spec seemingly has 2 trade offs. i would like to hear anyone with an opposing opinion on why i'm wrong about the 2 trade off thing. i suppose it would be fine if there was no cd on double attuning (maybe no cd on switching attunes but cd on double attune?) but imo its just too much.

  1. I don't see how weaver is clunky, so I disagree with the title.
  2. I don't see how you can complain about 4 second "global" attunement cd unless you actually keep looking at it in a complete vacuum and neglect the fact that's it's there due to the benefits weaver brings with the 4sec swap cd along with effectively getting new set of offhand skills whenever you're not swapping out of double attunement.
  3. Dual attacks "get in the way"? I don't understand what exactly you mean by that.
  4. "weaver has 2 trade-offs" -it's not anything out of ordinary in this game. Also the "trade-offs" aren't exactly working in some "1:1" scale, not sure what that complaint is in the first place.
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