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Does anyone here want a Healer/ Support Thief?


MatyrGustav.6210

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I know I do. Thief was my main profession, but I ended up switching to Druid, and then Ventari Revenant when Anet started making classes heal more. I love playing Healing classes, especially when stealth is involved. I know at this point we are expecting Assassin with Off-Hand sword, but I think we truly can't rule out a healer Espec just yet. 

I know it won't happen,  but i wish to play a .....

Shadowmancer (The Mage Spec)

Class Function 

  • Shadow Cast - Steal an item, increase healing potency for a duration, and provide Regeneration to nearby allies.

Weapon - Scepter 

  • (Skill 1) Shadow Surge - Magic combo that applies Torment each hit. (Can be traited to drop heal orbs)
  • (Skill 2) Shadow Bolt - Projectile with Area of effect explosion that damages and also inflicts torment.
  • (Skill 3) Dark Blessing - Area channel Healing per second + Remove 1 condition per second.
  • (Out of Stealth attack)  Manifestation - Attack damage is increased based on the amount of conditions your target is suffering from, also Blinds.

Utility - Glyphs

  • (Heal) Glyph Of Healing. Create a Healing shadow Sphere with an initial Heal, and a secondary heal after it expires to nearby allies.

  • Glyph Of Protection. Create a shadow Sphere to provide 33% Protection to allies within the area, and Aegis when it expires. 

  • Glyph Of Cleansing. Create a Shadow Sphere that gathers conditions from nearby allies. Upon expiring the sphere will become corrupted and disperse the absorbed conditions to nearby enemies.

  • Glyph Of Power. Create  shadow Sphere that provides Might & Fury while in the area of effect. Upon expiring all within the area will receive Quickness.

  • Glyph Of Regeneration. Create a Shadow Sphere to provide Regeneration, & Vigor for all nearby allies. Upon expiring all allies receive Alacrity.

  • (Elite) Glyph Of Shadow Flare. Create a shadow fire Sphere that inflicts Torment, & Blindness for all nearby enemies. Upon expiring enemies within the area effect will receive Weakness & Burn. 

 This would be something i would love to play if Thief received a healer Espec. 

So what are your hopes, and what playstyles would you prefer if Thief was to receive a Support Espec?Or, just let us know if a support Thief would be a bad idea.

Would love to hear everyones ideas.

-Edit 12/11/2020

There is so much potential for a support / Healer spec for Thief. Sharing some images to fill in some imagination

img]img]img]

Thief could even receive Off hand Focus and perform Boon / Barrier support as mentioned in the thread.

img]
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Yes, its something I've wanted for a long time. I've tried to make it work with the existing mechanics, but it just doesn't. Current Thief is at best, a buffer and stealth-resser with some projectile hate, but that's about it.

Shadow Mender shows that darkness doesn't necessarily mean "selfish".

In fact I think a support spec is our most likely target for EoD since we already have tank and DPS specs.

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No, only for one reason : A profession doesn't have to do it all.

The whole Profession - traits - skills system we have in place right now is kinda the entire base problem with our PvE Raid and Fractal Meta tbh.I'm quite happy that Gw2 allows all Profession to play multiple roles, but when a single Profession, or a couple of Professions start "doing it all", it will start strangulating and choking out build diversity.

Guardian is a good example of this : They can do good DPS, they can Support, and they are meta picks which are highly sought after.Mesmer is another one, having dominated the PvE scene for almost the entirety of Gw2's lifespan, and even with the heavy handed nerfs to SoI which clipped their wings a little, they are still a popular choice, and in some cases, unrivalled picks for Raids.

With that in mind, I don't feel like people should start wanting or asking for their favourite Profession to start being able to "do it all" because it will end up with one of two results :

  1. It turns out pretty weak, and people wonder why the heck was a DPS focused Profession given a Support Espec for no reason
  2. It turns out pretty busted, everyone plays a single Profession, and then build diversity is just thrown out the window again.

Let Thief just be Thief, let them deal damage, there is absolutely nothing wrong with a Profession just doing damage.No one has to multi-role in this game, and this game doesn't even have a set-in-stone role system in the first place.

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I just want an independent Thief that is a truly lethal threat in PvP/WvW.

A Thief that can fight, survive, and kill against a single opponent of equal skill/experience (regardless of profession). Maybe not a 50/50 chance in a fair fight, but at least an equal shot if the Thief plays dirty and gets the first strike in.

A Thief that is more than just a +1/Decap bot that relies on Shortbow mobility or Stealth.

P.S. There used to be a fun "Ninja Nurse" build in WvW, but they gutted it. It was fun to watch an invisible Thief run around in the middle of an enemy zerg, reviving fallen allies... especially when the player had become very proficent at it.

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My opinion:

  • Question of the title: I don't "want" a (dedicated) healer/support spec simply because DE provide such thing yet it nobody seem to feel drawn to this support.
  • Shadowcast: Feel like steal with healing buff on top, probably need more comprehensive work.
  • Scepter: skill#3 is supposed to change with each offhand weapon. Granted how the healing support of the core thief work I think focus would be a better weapon choice (at least we could make use of sword#2).
  • Glyph: This utility category is interesting due to it's ability to be "attuned", it feel like a work half done as it is presented here.

NB.: Personally, I think thief need an e-spec with trait like weaver, giving him some easy vitality and barrier access.

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I would like to have an E-spec that would have new and also change current skills to have directional, cone, and radius attacks that behave a little differently depending on how we move, pivot, or pan camera-look that can sort of chain together by momentum or timing. Sort of like how I can pull people a little differently once I connect scorpion wire sometimes with a little camera work, or how you would move to swing and fight in Skyrim/Elderscrolls.

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I had an elite spec idea for this as well, though now defunct. But I don't see assassins as antithetical to support since GW1 assassins had a tanking build.

I do worry that the more parts of a profession that gets dedicated to support (the F-skills, the weapon, the utilities. . .), the more they'll undertune the rest of the class. So I'd rather the support options be part of trait choices, for more build options.

I think the PoF classes made out pretty well in terms of flexibility between dps and support. Just the ability to provide one of the high-value boons, like quickness or alacrity, would be enough. Maybe something like barrier (which is basically a type of heal) could help the thief's own sustain or be shared for group benefit.

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@"Dadnir.5038" said:My opinion:

  • Question of the title: I don't "want" a (dedicated) healer/support spec simply because DE provide such thing yet it nobody seem to feel drawn to this support.
  • Shadowcast: Feel like steal with healing buff on top, probably need more comprehensive work.
  • Scepter: skill#3 is supposed to change with each offhand weapon. Granted how the healing support of the core thief work I think focus would be a better weapon choice (at least we could make use of sword#2).
  • Glyph: This utility category is interesting due to it's ability to be "attuned", it feel like a work half done as it is presented here.

Yes, everything was half done. Just a rough idea.

NB.: Personally, I think thief need an e-spec with trait like weaver, giving him some easy vitality and barrier access.

That would be interesting. If not a healer spec, a mage spec would be nice

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@Fueki.4753 said:I don't think Healing would fit Thieves.Offensive or Defensive support via unique boons, boon sharing and Barrier would be much better in my opinion.

Thief already can heal a little with Shadow Refuge utility skill.

  • Create a pulsing refuge at the target area that heals allies and cloaks them in stealth.

You can also improve it with the Merciful Ambush trait in the Shadow Arts spec.

  • When you apply stealth to an ally, they heal and revive over a short duration. Stealth yourself and your target when reviving an ally.

Though i do like the Barrier idea as well.

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@MatyrGustav.6210 said:

@Fueki.4753 said:I don't think Healing would fit Thieves.Offensive or Defensive support via unique boons, boon sharing and Barrier would be much better in my opinion.

Thief already can heal a little with Shadow Refuge utility skill.
  • Create a pulsing refuge at the target area that heals allies and cloaks them in stealth.

You can also improve it with the Merciful Ambush trait in the Shadow Arts spec.
  • When you apply stealth to an ally, they heal and revive over a short duration. Stealth yourself and your target when reviving an ally.

Though i do like the Barrier idea as well.

Just because they can do it with one trait, doesn't mean it fits their image.

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As an observation: The utility skills look like wells to me, rather than glyphs. Wells usually have the effect of placing an AoE that harms enemies and/or supports allies. Glyphs can have a variety of effects, but are usually in the context of being on a profession or specialisation that has access to multiple modes, and the effect of the glyph changes depending on mode.

In particular, the whole theme of providing one effect over the duration and then doing something else after it expires sounds a lot like Chronomancer wells.

@"Yasai.3549" said:No, only for one reason : A profession doesn't have to do it all.

The whole Profession - traits - skills system we have in place right now is kinda the entire base problem with our PvE Raid and Fractal Meta tbh.I'm quite happy that Gw2 allows all Profession to play multiple roles, but when a single Profession, or a couple of Professions start "doing it all", it will start strangulating and choking out build diversity.

Guardian is a good example of this : They can do good DPS, they can Support, and they are meta picks which are highly sought after.Mesmer is another one, having dominated the PvE scene for almost the entirety of Gw2's lifespan, and even with the heavy handed nerfs to SoI which clipped their wings a little, they are still a popular choice, and in some cases, unrivalled picks for Raids.

With that in mind, I don't feel like people should start wanting or asking for their favourite Profession to start being able to "do it all" because it will end up with one of two results :

  1. It turns out pretty weak, and people wonder why the heck was a DPS focused Profession given a Support Espec for no reason
  2. It turns out pretty busted, everyone plays a single Profession, and then build diversity is just thrown out the window again.

Let Thief just be Thief, let them deal damage, there is absolutely nothing wrong with a Profession just doing damage.No one has to multi-role in this game, and this game doesn't even have a set-in-stone role system in the first place.

I'm inclined to disagree with this argument.

One of the big things ArenaNet was talking about when making GW2 was that all professions would be able to assume all roles - the profession's theme just established how you did it. People fairly quickly recognised that 'support thief' was a bit of a meme, and then the support of other professions were boosted well over the original baseline when they decided that they would have dedicated healers after all, but that was always the core idea.

You're pointing the finger at guardians and mesmers, but versatility is really what gives guardians, mesmers, revenants, and rangers their advantage in high-end PvE: if the profession can fill multiple roles, that increases the chance that at least one of the things the profession can do will be wanted for any given encounter. (Guardians and mesmers also have the specific advantage of being the only professions that can currently provide high uptime of party quickness, and mesmer and renegade have a similar hold on alacrity). If all your profession does is DPS, though, and your particular brand of DPS isn't what's optimal for the encounter, though, you're probably out. Which is exactly the problem thief has now - there are a couple of raid bosses where they can support with Detonate Plasma, but otherwise they're effectively limited to the bosses where staff daredevil or rifle deadeye actually work well. Having more things to bring to the table increases the chance that one of the things that they can bring to the table will be desirable.

I also disagree that giving professions multiple roles decreases diversity. If anything, it increases it by making it more likely that any given profession can fit in. It's also worth noting that in many cases, the difference between the optimal team setup and various alternative setups which have the same roles filled is often fairly small.

It's also worth noting that, apart from druid due to post-release nerfs, the 'support' specialisations have usually come with the potential to make a DPS-oriented version of the build as well. There currently isn't really a condi-oriented elite specialisation, so one could see support and improved condis come out of the same elite specialisation, although some PvPers will probably scream at the combination of condition pressure and stealth.

@MatyrGustav.6210 said:

@Crab Fear.1624 said:Looking at their traitlines, it does not seem feasible.

Shadow Arts + Acrobatics look like solid choices. The New Espec would be all they would need tbh, the other two would be the type of offensive Thief you want to be aside from Support.

You'll have customization.

I'd imagine Trickery would also fit well, probably better than Acrobatics. Thrill of the Crime, Bountiful Theft (especially if the enemy has its own boons), extra initiative, and decreased Steal recharge would all help a support build, I'd imagine.

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@"draxynnic.3719" said:

I also disagree that giving professions multiple roles decreases diversity. If anything, it increases it by making it more likely that any given profession can fit in. It's also worth noting that in many cases, the difference between the optimal team setup and various alternative setups which have the same roles filled is often fairly small.

Go ahead and disgree, but just take a look at some youtube videos for clears, take a look at build sites, take a look in forums, and yu will find that alot of roles are filled by only a couple of Professions, and not because that they are the only Professions that can fill that role, but its because they are able to bring more to the table than others.

What can a Support Thief bring to the table that others can't already do, and better?If the Espec can't bring as much as the others, it's automatically dumpster tier because Core Thief has very very few supportive capabilities.

One can't just rely on Espec to "add" a role to the existing archetype.DD fitted well because Thief could already dodge around, avoiding damage, and hit and run.DD enhanced that playstyle.

DE fits because Thief could already pop in and out of Stealth, hit and run, deal burst damage.DE enhances that playstyle.

Thief at its core has few if no Supportive capabilities.Shoehorning an Espec in to essentially "add" a role will need the Espec to either be overloaded with utility to make up for the fact that Core Thief has no supportive capabilities or it will end up as a big meme and wasted Espec because it can Support, but not as well as others, resulting in people not wanting a half-baked "support" which may as well just DPS.

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So the elite spec would need to bring something to the table.

If you look at DPS roles, there's a wide range of builds that are considered 'optimal' for any given encounter, since most of the encounters have different situations which reward different types of dishing out damage. The mesmers and guardians you keep complaining about, however, mostly have their position because they are the main sources of quickness. So you're always going to see at least one of those as a source of quickness (plus DPS roles, if mesmer or guardian damage works well in the encounter). Mesmer gets a second bite at the support cherry because it's also one of the only two sources of alacrity - you're also going to get either mesmer or revenant to provide that. So DPS roles can be a range of professions, but you're always going to see some combination of firebrand, chrono, and/or renegade to cover those highly desired boons.

Another pure DPS elite is just going to be another bite at the same DPS cherry that everyone can have a bite at. Unless you end up with something that outperforms as much as staff elementalist used to (in which case it will probably get nerfed like staff elementalist did), there might be a couple of encounters where the new elite spec might just edge out the existing DPS options, but it's probably not going to significantly boost thief's viability in high-end instanced PvE in general. Now if, hypothetically, it was able to compete in the quickness and/or alacrity space? Then it's got less competition, and a higher chance in any given instance that it will be the optimal choice for that role... or at least good enough that groups that aren't concerned about getting the absolute best setup would at least consider it as an alternative to a chrono or firebrand/renegade.

One consideration with the OP's specific proposal in this space is that receiving the boon when an AoE arrives means that it will have the same characteristics as chronomancer support, in that allies need to remain within an AoE to receive the benefit. But that's just an issue with the specific implementation proposed, not the general idea.

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@"Psycoprophet.8107" said:There is no honor among thieves, they endure and are experts in their own survival and if the death of their target benefits others than so shall it be but they care little for the support of others. A support thief is a contradiction.

Not necessarily. One can support another to benefit their own self interest. A Thief may use others as a "weapon" to fulfill a task, so why not provide enhancements to said "Weapons". There are many ways to see reasoning for a thief utilizing support.

The other thing is that Thief already has some supporty skills, so its not farfetched lol

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@draxynnic.3719 said:As an observation: The utility skills look like wells to me, rather than glyphs. Wells usually have the effect of placing an AoE that harms enemies and/or supports allies. Glyphs can have a variety of effects, but are usually in the context of being on a profession or specialisation that has access to multiple modes, and the effect of the glyph changes depending on mode.

In particular, the whole theme of providing one effect over the duration and then doing something else after it expires sounds a lot like Chronomancer wells.

Yes I initially thought if them as wells, but i didn't like that it had to be cast at your feet. It could also work as wells, and have a trait that improves casting times and allows for Ground Target. If they were Glyphs the steal function can also add different effects based on what you steal from for the attunments maybe.

.

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@Yasai.3549 said:

@"draxynnic.3719" said:

I also disagree that giving professions multiple roles decreases diversity. If anything, it increases it by making it more likely that any given profession can fit in. It's also worth noting that in many cases, the difference between the optimal team setup and various alternative setups which have the same roles filled is often fairly small.

Go ahead and disgree, but just take a look at some youtube videos for clears, take a look at build sites, take a look in forums, and yu will find that alot of roles are filled by only a couple of Professions, and not because that they are the only Professions that can fill that role, but its because they are able to bring more to the table than others.

I hear what you're saying, but its not what Anet stated, and maybe Thief is just one of the classes with every role.

What can a Support Thief bring to the table that others can't already do, and better?If the Espec can't bring as much as the others, it's automatically dumpster tier because Core Thief has very very few supportive capabilities.

Maybe

  • Ressurection Master
  • While in stealth they can produce an Area aura of healing
  • Provide Poison to all allied attacks
  • Ranged Healing Glyphs with attunments governed by what you steal from
  • Class function that steals shadow essence to utilize for a class function ability once you accumulated enough. Abilities like instant Rez, or large Healing well.
  • Steal BoonsJust thought of these quickly, but there are so many different possibilities.

One can't just rely on Espec to "add" a role to the existing archetype.DD fitted well because Thief could already dodge around, avoiding damage, and hit and run.DD enhanced that playstyle.

DE fits because Thief could already pop in and out of Stealth, hit and run, deal burst damage.DE enhances that playstyle.

Thief at its core has few if no Supportive capabilities.Shoehorning an Espec in to essentially "add" a role will need the Espec to either be overloaded with utility to make up for the fact that Core Thief has no supportive capabilities or it will end up as a big meme and wasted Espec because it can Support, but not as well as others, resulting in people not wanting a half-baked "support" which may as well just DPS.

That's the beauty of it, in Gw2 if you're not supporting, then you are doing Dps. If you equip all the Espec has to offer, then youll be the full support spec that Anet envisioned. Youll have Shadow Arts, and other traitlines / abilities to work with. Shadow refuge is an ability to further identify you as a support spec. Also a lot of Thief abilities help them survive, and you can stealth an ally to provide healing to them while they are invisible in general. Its not a shoehorn situation.

Also, providing a full support spec on a mainly Dps class is a good thing, since youll have control on how much support you want for your character. You can spec to be full dps and just choose which of the new support skills you want to use that just benefits you, and your survival.

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