Do we need more weapons?

[draxynnic.3719]

@Yasai.3549 said:

Rev could have worked with no weapon swap : If their skills functioned similarly to Elementalist's and swapped based on current Legend.Engineer never had that problem, because Kits were essentially a 2nd, 3rd or 4th weapon set they can equip, and still have a utility through their toolbelt.

The bigger problem is twofold:

The first is that rev was a no-weaponswap profession with weapons that weren't designed with that in mind. If you look at the core Elementalist and Engineer weapons, they each share the key features of being versatile. Engineer core weapon sets all have the property of having a long-range auto, but also having skills that allow them to punish anyone who comes in close (or lets the engineer get in close) as well. Elementalist core weapons also combine being effective close in (Staff out-DPSed most professions' melee sets for a long time) with having a standoff capability - even dagger gives you 600 range pressure in Water.

Revenant weapons... don't do this. Hammer is designed purely for long-range combat, and is pretty much helpless when the enemy gets too close. Staff and sword are pure melee. Only mace even comes close, and that only because of laying down that fire field on a short cooldown.

Furthermore, if elementalist and engineer need more versatility, they have other options to change up their weapon skills. Engineers are pretty much built around the assumption that they'll be using at least one kit - you don't have to, but if you don't have one, you're implicitly accepting the disadvantages of not having a swap in order to leverage whichever utility skills you felt were strong enough to accept that handicap. Elementalists have conjures. Without weaponswap, a revenant who found themselves at the wrong range for their weapon had no option other than burning through their energy with the right side of their bar, and that can't be sustained for long.

With that said:

@Psykewne.3025 said:I doubt anet is going to ever add further core weapons (trident being added to rev was an anomaly as far as I'm concerned) but i honestly think if they were to add any, ele and engie are much more likely to receive something than rev who even if you overlook the bugs you cited the weapons all have clear purpose and use, and show up in some manner of meta build or have done until recently.

Personally, I consider bugs to be a 'fix the bugs' issue than a 'make a new weapon' issue.

However, I think there are two things you're missing with your relative privation argument beyond the inherent fallacy of such arguments:

The first is that, as I've said before, core revenants (and heralds) have literally no alternative to hammer if they want to fight at ranged. Given ArenaNet's track record, we can probably reasonably safely assume that any single weapon is going to have some period where it performs poorly, but if you've got two weapons to choose from, usually at least one of them will be doing okay. Because revenant doesn't have an alternative, though, if hammer sucks, that means that the ranged capabilities of all revenants (that aren't taking an elite specialisation that has a ranged weapon) are going to suck. To add insult to injury, the fact that hammer is fundamentally a power weapon means that condi revenants will never have a good ranged weapon unless it comes from their elite specialisation. They can keep packaging ranged condi or ranged hybrid weapons with elite specialisations to mitigate this, but like engineer elite specialisations always getting melee weapons, this is a bandaid solution at best.

Compare that to engineer and elementalist. An engineer that wants to fight at range has rifle, pistol, grenades, elixir gun, and mortar kit. The odds of them all being bad are pretty low. For melee, there are bombs and the toolkit. Elementalist ranged has staff, scepter, and with a few extra complications, frost bow and lava axe. For melee, they have daggers, earth shield, and lightning hammer, while staff and scepter can both reward 'AoE on my feet'-type tactics. Neither has the sensitivity to a single weapon that revenant does.

The second is that, with revenant being a profession with weaponswap, it needs two sets to support any given build. At the moment, despite being a profession which is intended to have a strong condition output, it only has one autoattack-capable core weapon that's oriented towards condis - namely, mace. The weaponswap, which has now become part of the balance of the revenant profession, then becomes a choice between 'mace with a different offhand', or a least-bad choice of an alternative weapon where your DPS is going to drop significantly when you switch to it because it has no damaging conditions except maybe the odd Abyssal Chill proc. At best, you could say that revenant can handle this in a similar fashion to condi mesmers using sword back in the day (the sword being there for defence while the real damage came from shatters - revenants can do something similar by having a defensive set while running Embrace the Darkness or otherwise getting conditions from somewhere other than their weapon), but mesmers still have two good core options for condis, while revenants don't.

Engineers and elementalists, on the other hand, don't have this problem. An engineer going power or condi would use rifle or pistol respectively, and can then choose kits to further support their choice. Elementalist weapons are, by nature, versatile hybrids, and choice of a power versus condi build usually doesn't influence your weapons so much, but your choices of traits and which attunements you spend more time in.

With all that, I've been advocating off and on for engineers to get a core melee weapon since before HoT, but I think revenant genuinely has it worse than either of them. Elementalist in particular: one of the effects of being a non-weaponswap profession is that you have fewer weapon choices, in part because you don't need as many because you're only going to be bringing one set of weapons to a fight instead of two. Giving elementalist a fourth autoattack-capable weapon in core would give them the same number as mesmer (sword, staff, scepter, greatsword), necromancer (dagger, staff, scepter, axe) and thief (sword, dagger, pistol, shortbow) - when they're a non-weaponswap profession that has attunements and access to conjures, I don't see how they also need to have as many weapon options as half of the professions which DO have in-combat weaponswaps.

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

@Opopanax.1803 said:I saw a suggestion in another Rev thread that I thought was good:

Remove weapon swap, and also remove weapon skill CDs. And then also fix existing weapons.

Do you want perma Unrelenting Assault? Because that’s how you get perma Unrelenting Assault.

Everyone talks about revenant being limited in build choices but then people make suggestions like this which would further remove 5 skills per build. ?

[Opopanax.1803]

@LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

@Opopanax.1803 said:I saw a suggestion in another Rev thread that I thought was good:

Remove weapon swap, and also remove weapon skill CDs. And then also fix existing weapons.

Do you want perma Unrelenting Assault? Because that’s how you get perma Unrelenting Assault.

Everyone talks about revenant being limited in build choices but then people make suggestions like this which would further remove 5 skills per build. ?

I actually think taking the CD off of the weapons and making it determined by energy end up giving you far more choices, and also a playstyle that would better fit revenant. Being able to play the same skills over again would give flexibility that currently only thief has, and that can be paired with a second utility set.

As far as unrelenting assault goes, if you went that route, you'd not be able to use your other utilities. That's where the trade off comes in. This is no different than theif skills... death blossom et al.

I think it is a good suggestion overall. Pick your weapon set carefully, and play on.

They will never do this, though, too much of a rework.

Even a single weapon with no swap would still not change the fact that core needs a condi ranged weapon.

[lil muffin.1250]

rev need a main hand axe/dagger. mid range condi.one additional skill for each legend.balthazar with a great sword specialization.

and let the color change in our weaponskills be based of the spirit we channeling.not red all the time.

Kallah needs to be reworked the whole way!id make kallah feel more like a paragon. where the spirits she unleashes next to her and buffs allies or hurts foes. they shouldn't be aoe ground targeted skills. and they shouldnt be actual charr sized things. its too big and messy.

give summoning spirits to somether class that it would better fit.summoning spirits while fighting with mostly melee weapons seems off.and then you add the bow and its still kinda off.it just doesnt work.

[draxynnic.3719]

@lil muffin.1250 said:balthazar with a great sword specialization.

Considered Asgeir? Keep in mind that the weapon he used to break Jormag's tooth was enchanted with a jotun scroll just like Braham did with Eir's bow, so you can get fiery greatsword action that way easily enough.

[Vasdamas Anklast.1607]

Been discussed, suggested and mopped so much - it has holes in it. This topic.It does need more weapons and 1 more utility per legend but they simply don't give a f4ck. Took them years to realize how busted thief-revenant (essence sap) is comparing to other professions. Don't think next expac is gonna change much

[GenerationX.9178]

I would like to see a dagger on revenant

[Loules.8601]

We need greatsword on revenant - why soldier class couldn't use greatsword when even mesmers, hunters and necr's can use them?

[draxynnic.3719]

@Loules.8601 said:We need greatsword on revenant - why soldier class couldn't use greatsword when even mesmers, hunters and necr's can use them?

Because they needed to give Kalla a ranged condition (hyrid really) weapon due to the lack of such a weapon in the core profession.