Upcoming Balance Notes

[Sobx.1758]

@Axl.8924 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Axl.8924 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Lily.1935 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Lily.1935 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Lily.1935 said:

@Mini Crinny.6190 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@"Anchoku.8142" said:Now that Scourge is nerfed in WvW, can it please have its dps improved in PvE? Barrier scaling from healing power can be adjusted but PvE-Scourge needs a competitive dps option. Barrier support is not always desired so Scourge could use a solid dps build if barrier-sharing is minimal or turned off.

Why exactly do people treat especs as if it's another class than second espec and core?I don't understand.

Yeah, from what anet say each spec brings a different style of play and Reaper is/should be the DPS class, Scourge is more on the support side or should be

Scourge is barely a support. Most of their traits are geared towards damage and control. Their skills are a bit more supportive but not much more than what their core skills offer.

Control is support btw.

But I disagree with the premise that scourge can't also be DPS. This argument is only ever brought up for scourge and never Firebrand which is basically everything scourge wants to be but better.

It's not that it really "can't", it's that it doesn't need to be one for pve. "Scourge" isn't a separate class, it's still necro.

I guess that means a reaper is support. Since its got just as many control elements. Who would have thought?

Ah yes, so nobody plays scourge anywhere since apparently reaper does everything better than scourge, ok. :)...and control abilities are still a type of support whether you respond with sarcasm or not.

Whether or not you think control is support is irrelevant as it doesn't practically function that way. Especially in raids. Why I said it was to point out the flaw in your thinking. Which, again, instead of admitting you're wrong you double down on it.

Practically speaking, control is not the same as support. It might accomplish a similar goal in some situations but so does high DPS.

Ah so you're limiting your opinion to one type of content in one of the modes (pve) and call it a day, cool. In any competitive mode control acts as support though. Apparently the "flaw in my thinking" was looking at the game as a whole.

Yes, it's not "the same as support", as I wrote before, it's a type/part of support.

And still this:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@"Anchoku.8142" said:Now that Scourge is nerfed in WvW, can it please have its dps improved in PvE? Barrier scaling from healing power can be adjusted but PvE-Scourge needs a competitive dps option. Barrier support is not always desired so Scourge could use a solid dps build if barrier-sharing is minimal or turned off.

Why exactly do people treat especs as if it's another class than second espec and core?I don't understand.

What lily i think is trying to say is other classes have desired support that is wanted most of the time while necro is severely hampered. Having multiple stuff that is sub par for raiding is not good.

Not sure why you suddenly felt the need to dig out posts from 6 months ago, but ok.I think what lily is trying to say is that she has problems with accepting when she's wrong and takes it unnecessarily personally, even admitting that -quote- "I don't like you which is why I'm dismissive" (which is even funnier when you notice she claims I'm the one "arguing in bad faith" here btw) :D

I don't think its good for a class to not have some options such as condi power support etc.

Luckily necro has all of them available. Just because it doesn't do the same thing "whatever another class" does doesn't change much.

As others have said and noted necro has had a issue mainly with being desired in raids.

Not desired by whom? Some of the people blindly following an online ""guide"" for the top meta theoretical deeps squad comp? Never saw the problem when I had necros in my squad as long as they weren't slacking.

Its got a identity for non speed run trials in fractals and does well, but in raids itself necros always had a issue of Falling behind everyone in multiple categories such as support power DPS and condi and generally tanking in GW2 means something else than in lets say everquest or wow where your aggro actually gets mobs attention, so having lots of hp, plus dadnir or someone mentioned life force being tied and limiting due to recovery time in PVE.

First it was about support option (which the class has), but now it's about dps (which the class also has) and... somehow "tanking working differently than in other games" as well? Where did that even come from?Honestly, I don't know what you're answering to anymore. Is it about game mechanics in general? Raiding mechanics? Dps tables? "not having power/condi/support options" (but again: they are all there)? You seem to be all over the place and it's getting hard to follow even in this short paragraph single sentence itself.

Hopefully some day they fix this necro issue, since its a specific issue to do with mechanics which nerf necromancers suffer efficiency wise compared to other classes.

Not sure there's much to fix seeing how your main complaint seems to stem from the fact you don't see/understand the difference between "viable" and "top" builds.But then again, maybe I just can't follow what you wrote in this post.

[Anchoku.8142]

Core Necromancer still has the problems that made it bad for instanced PvE in 2012.

1. Death Shroud is designed for 1v1 power build support so it has low value on any condi dps build but stronger on low-cleave power builds, which are bad on large hit box bosses. Core Necro has a lot of low-damage area-denial and can 1v1 but is very bad versus bosses. Points 2 and 3 help explain.
2. Core has very low cleave dps (power or condi), not just a little low but very low, and has poor group utility without barrier or other buffs to make up for it. Running core Necro in instanced group PvE is asking to be carried. It is only viable if squads become happy to carry even top-skilled Core Necro's who do not want to switch to a meta prof/spec for whatever reason.
3. Indomitable/Defiant is a direct, hard-counter to most of core Necro's soft-CC condi output. Only scepter's auto attack chain has any significant damage output and Epidemic bouncing is dead. This is an 8 year old problem and, therefore, must be exceedingly difficult to fix.

Scourge is kind of like a Druid that was nerfed even harder. It has limited use in instanced PvE because of that and is why I suggested a trait to swap between barrier and dps would be nice. Scourge's condi dps in PvE was nerfed severely from PoF release before PvP and WvW balancing was separated from PvE so right now Scourge dps is what makes barrier-slave Scourge competitive in instanced PvE. That restricts Scourge to a specific squad slot and build. If it had a way to "turn off" barrier sharing and increase dps, Scourge could switch to a condi-dps build with condi-cleave like Reaper has with power cleave. Right now, swapping to power-Reaper via build templates is the only way to stay with the profession and be acceptable in a dps slot.

In contrast, core Necro may not be meta in WvW like it was before Scourge replaced it and the expansion's other elites were added but it still has fair value.

Also, Core Necro actually gained sustain in PvP with damage being removed from control effect skills making core shroud strong enough to need solid nerfing.

Finally, core Necro is fine in open world PvE where taking a long time to solo a boss allows other players time to join. It is only in instanced PvE where core is so bad that using it at all is stubbornly asking the group to carry you and I hate seeing any profession in that state.

[Lily.1935]

@"Anchoku.8142" said:Core Necromancer still has the problems that made it bad for instanced PvE in 2012.

1. Death Shroud is designed for 1v1 power build support so it has low value on any condi dps build but stronger on low-cleave power builds, which are bad on large hit box bosses. Core Necro has a lot of low-damage area-denial and can 1v1 but is very bad versus bosses. Points 2 and 3 help explain.

Agreed, though it was worse in 2012 its still quite a problem. To your points here I'll address them one by one. Death shroud in itself seems to be minor pressure as it buys time in 1v1. And the lower the overall damage in PvP the better it does. None of the skills in shroud are particularly noteworthy. Considering how much the necromancer's kit is loaded into shroud and how poorly shroud is balanced, it leaves it wanting in other formats where its mechanical design hampers it more than helps.

2. Core has very low cleave dps (power or condi), not just a little low but very low, and has poor group utility without barrier or other buffs to make up for it. Running core Necro in instanced group PvE is asking to be carried. It is only viable if squads become happy to carry even top-skilled Core Necro's who do not want to switch to a meta prof/spec for whatever reason.

Agreed. Although I don't personally feel cleave is that big of an issue since classes can have low cleave DPS or next to none and do incredibly well. Deadeye has quite a bit of utility beyond cleaving and can hit quite hard. The bigger issue is how little support the necromancer provides at its baseline due to how heavily they're loaded into death shroud which seems tuned to fight a very very narrow niche.

3. Indomitable/Defiant is a direct, hard-counter to most of core Necro's soft-CC condi output. Only scepter's auto attack chain has any significant damage output and Epidemic bouncing is dead. This is an 8 year old problem and, therefore, must be exceedingly difficult to fix.

I think there are other means to solve the issue, though I wont argue with its difficulty. I think the big issue is that what the necromancer does well is hyper limited while other classes do what necromancer does but better. Baring resing allies and applying barrier. Which I'd argue narrow their scope far beyond what is normal for the existing professions.

I'd argue their biggest issue is their lack of baseline support. Why doesn't Blood is power for example give both might and Fury to allies? Why just a highly common Boon but not one that is a bit more rare? Or why doesn't it just deal far more damage? Its a odd skill I'd say should be support yet isn't. Why does Necromancer have to dodge with blood magic to grant regeneration when there is nothing in their design that benefits from dodge beside that singular minor trait? Why is it that Signet of Vampirism is so difficult to use and outclassed by a relatively spammable elite on Renegade? Why doesn't staff apply more support than just regen as long as a foe is right on top of the party? Why is it that the scourge is given such high concentration for their minor and only might to really take advantage of it? At that point why have the concentration why not just turn it to healing power?

But perhaps I'm getting ahead of myself.

Scourge is kind of like a Druid that was nerfed even harder. It has limited use in instanced PvE because of that and is why I suggested a trait to swap between barrier and dps would be nice. Scourge's condi dps in PvE was nerfed severely from PoF release before PvP and WvW balancing was separated from PvE so right now Scourge dps is what makes barrier-slave Scourge competitive in instanced PvE. That restricts Scourge to a specific squad slot and build. If it had a way to "turn off" barrier sharing and increase dps, Scourge could switch to a condi-dps build with condi-cleave like Reaper has with power cleave. Right now, swapping to power-Reaper via build templates is the only way to stay with the profession and be acceptable in a dps slot.

In contrast, core Necro may not be meta in WvW like it was before Scourge replaced it and the expansion's other elites were added but it still has fair value.

Also, Core Necro actually gained sustain in PvP with damage being removed from control effect skills making core shroud strong enough to need solid nerfing.

Finally, core Necro is fine in open world PvE where taking a long time to solo a boss allows other players time to join. It is only in instanced PvE where core is so bad that using it at all is stubbornly asking the group to carry you and I hate seeing any profession in that state.

I personally don't think Scourge does enough on either side of its spectrum. Either for support of for DPS. As I sorta explained above. To me it looks like an issue of the core as well as the elite spec. There's a lot of wasted potential in the necromancer And I personally would sacrifice barrier and death shroud in favor of more DPS and party utility.

As for your point on Core necromancer in open world, I don't take that as a good argument on either side. From my subjective opinion core necromancer is incredibly boring to play. And the builds it offers for new players have little to no translation into how the two elite specs play in PvE. This to me even makes the transition a rocky one and could be a source of conflict for new players as they attempt to transition into the high end content.

As for some suggestions I've made, I've done quite a few. If you want to see them I can post a few, I talk at length about a lot of issues with the game, some of my opinions are controversial as I'm aware.

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/117391/death-shroud-suggestions#latesthttps://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/117073/reaper-suggestions#latesthttps://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/117789/scourge-suggestions#latest

As a note to this. I don't necessarily stand by every suggestion I've made in these. As my opinions and perspective is subject to change and evolve and these are a bit old as far as posts go.

I do have further perspectives On the PvE issue I've been contemplating though these are just fledgling ideas and not set in stone. Such as the idea of an Aggro system which i've talked about before on the forums but haven't made an official post on due to its complexity and my uncertain position with it. I'm leaning toward it being a good idea for PvE as I do feel the function and behavior of NPCs is so drastically different from PvP that unique balance taking place in PvE is probably the correct path, though I wont debate that today. Another concept I had was unique behavior of NPCs. One such example is the Seekers in the Vale guardian fight. You can knock them back with Druid but applying fear almost just immobilizes them. This further harms the control function of fear which is notoriously poor in PvE and I'd suggest a behavioral function for these seekers to trigger on being feared to flee the player at at least a player's Running pace as opposed to going as slow as they do. But that's just one example.

I've been dragged back into this conversation and not by you, I just wanted to expand on what you were saying with my own perspective.

[Axl.8924]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@"Axl.8924" said:Hopefully some day they fix this necro issue, since its a specific issue to do with mechanics which nerf necromancers suffer efficiency wise compared to other classes.

Except this isn't an issue in PVE because the game isn't designed around needing the highest efficiency builds to be successful. Hopefully, Anet continue to ignore these constant requests to 'fix' issues that would result in the content dictating what builds are needed, resulting in fewer people being able to play the builds they want.

It becomes a issue if that extra damage delays the death of a raid boss and gives it more time to use techs. can it be done? sure but it also encourages a certain mentality that necro is a noob class that can't do damage.

speed run trials in fractals and does well, but in raids itself necros always had a issue of Falling behind everyone in multiple categories such as support power DPS and condi and generally tanking in GW2 means something else than in lets say everquest or wow where your aggro actually gets mobs attention, so having lots of hp, plus dadnir or someone mentioned life force being tied and limiting due to recovery time in PVE.

Sobx

Not desired by whom? Some of the people blindly following an online ""guide"" for the top meta theoretical deeps squad comp? Never saw the problem when I had necros in my squad as long as they weren't slacking.

You have to understand that if you are raiding and you got others who can do what you can do but better, then why bring necro? if the utility dmg and condi nec has is inferior in all ways why bring nec? because like i said i'm talking about raids specifically, and those raid targets who take longer also have longer to use techs. If you are in a guild that allows it fine, but pug raids might reject you outright for being a nec, its sort of like sunwelling almost which is a horrible feeling.

Its got a identity for non speed run trials in fractals and does well, but in raids itself necros always had a issue of Falling behind everyone in multiple categories such as support power DPS and condi and generally tanking in GW2 means something else than in lets say everquest or wow where your aggro actually gets mobs attention, so having lots of hp, plus dadnir or someone mentioned life force being tied and limiting due to recovery time in PVE.

First it was about support option (which the class has), but now it's about dps (which the class also has) and... somehow "tanking working differently than in other games" as well? Where did that even come from?Honestly, I don't know what you're answering to anymore. Is it about game mechanics in general? Raiding mechanics? Dps tables? "not having power/condi/support options" (but again: they are all there)? You seem to be all over the place and it's getting hard to follow even in this short paragraph single sentence itself.

nec support is still pretty much outdone by many classe and it has a few k below. Discrepancies are picked up by others and notice now nec has lower damage by a noticeable amount. If you play nec it means you practically get carried, especially if you are support scourge.

Hopefully some day they fix this necro issue, since its a specific issue to do with mechanics which nerf necromancers suffer efficiency wise compared to other classes.

Not sure there's much to fix seeing how your main complaint seems to stem from the fact you don't see/understand the difference between "viable" and "top" builds.But then again, maybe I just can't follow what you wrote in this post.

Mechanics damage and support are important. Mechanics hinder necromancer as well it has the potential in some of these and if it was solved it would solve a lot of issues.

If raid bosses had boons to corrupt nec could do more damage and if some of our ccs which don't effect bosses as well worked it would work in adding us a role.

And don't say it aint a big deal, because corrupting boons is a huge deal in pvp, so much that it hurts folks a lot. Our form of support is mostly in form of ccing enemies. If boon corrupt was useful in raids folks would take us. A idea: Add unique unstealable buff to raid bosses and have the raid boss also have a bunch of buffs that aren't unique that can be ripped or corrupted.

Just look at how useful for instance condi corrupt is in higher level tiers of fractals, that stuff is amazing. Both nec and guardian with firebrand was it who corrupted conditions into boons? yeah that would be absolutely amazing.

Is it possible? sure but it kinda encourages to not pick nec for raids. I remember being screamed at for playing a nec and asked to play another class years ago because there was a noticeable dps difference for warlock. This frankly should not happen.

Not fixing this problem is on anet and frankly i don't know why you don't want improvements maybe you want to gloat over necro with your favorite class somewhat like folks want to feel superior to feed their egos, but who knows.

[Obtena.7952]

@Axl.8924 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Axl.8924 said:Hopefully some day they fix this necro issue, since its a specific issue to do with mechanics which nerf necromancers suffer efficiency wise compared to other classes.

Except this isn't an issue in PVE because the game isn't designed around needing the highest efficiency builds to be successful. Hopefully, Anet continue to ignore these constant requests to 'fix' issues that would result in the content dictating what builds are needed, resulting in fewer people being able to play the builds they want.

It becomes a issue if that extra damage delays the death of a raid boss and gives it more time to use techs.

Again, that's not an issue. You can be successful if that happens. In fact, the game is DESIGNED to allow that 'delay' so people can choose to play how they want.

can it be done? sure but it also encourages a certain mentality that necro is a noob class that can't do damage.

Again, also not an issue because DPS isn't the only reason a class can be desired in a team; just look at warriors for instance. Ignorant players that use this mentality in how they team with people exclude themselves from the herd. Self-extinction is a hell of a thing.

Not fixing this problem is on anet and frankly i don't know why you don't want improvements maybe you want to gloat over necro with your favorite class somewhat like folks want to feel superior to feed their egos, but who knows.

We want improvements ... but they need to make sense and be meaningful.

[Axl.8924]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Axl.8924 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Axl.8924 said:Hopefully some day they fix this necro issue, since its a specific issue to do with mechanics which nerf necromancers suffer efficiency wise compared to other classes.

Except this isn't an issue in PVE because the game isn't designed around needing the highest efficiency builds to be successful. Hopefully, Anet continue to ignore these constant requests to 'fix' issues that would result in the content dictating what builds are needed, resulting in fewer people being able to play the builds they want.

It becomes a issue if that extra damage delays the death of a raid boss and gives it more time to use techs.

Again, that's not an issue. You can be successful if that happens. In fact, the game is DESIGNED to allow that 'delay' so people can choose to play how they want.

It is though because it gives a reason for folks to pass over necro. If nec was this way in fractals and people would pass over you'd say its no big deal too and make excuses, because bad balance is bad.For that reason you could rationalize, doesn't mean its fair.

can it be done? sure but it also encourages a certain mentality that necro is a noob class that can't do damage.

Again, also not an issue because DPS isn't the only reason a class can be desired in a team; just look at warriors for instance. Ignorant players that use this mentality in how they team with people exclude themselves from the herd. Self-extinction is a hell of a thing.

And warriors have issues comparitively. People are complaining about it too and folks complain about ele the way it works in pve. So are we going to just ignore all problems and hope and pray it goes away? No i don't think not doing anything and praying the people and the problems go away is a good solution, and neither is pretending the problems don't exist.

If it was 1 discrepancy sure maybe even then complaining about 1 role because this is a Roleplaying game and people might want to play and roleplay as a necro who does damage. Fun factor is important in a game and best way to go out of business is to ignore problems and your clients and do nothing for loads of time. If you have enough time to balance pvp you will have to make time to find to fix class issues. GW2 is mainly pve and it seems pvp is mainly casual now and fixing class issues in GW2 is important so fix it. When you have issues with all roles: offensive CC in a mode Damage condi support and also power dmg falling behind, and do nothing it hurts the class and your game. Folks have said nec is mostly offensive CC as support in the form of offensive support and thats fine as long as its super useful in raids, but plenty of stuff simply doesn't work well and it effects nec why?.

Not fixing this problem is on anet and frankly i don't know why you don't want improvements maybe you want to gloat over necro with your favorite class somewhat like folks want to feel superior to feed their egos, but who knows.

We want improvements ... but they need to make sense and be meaningful.

[Obtena.7952]

@Axl.8924 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Axl.8924 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Axl.8924 said:Hopefully some day they fix this necro issue, since its a specific issue to do with mechanics which nerf necromancers suffer efficiency wise compared to other classes.

Except this isn't an issue in PVE because the game isn't designed around needing the highest efficiency builds to be successful. Hopefully, Anet continue to ignore these constant requests to 'fix' issues that would result in the content dictating what builds are needed, resulting in fewer people being able to play the builds they want.

It becomes a issue if that extra damage delays the death of a raid boss and gives it more time to use techs.

Again, that's not an issue. You can be successful if that happens. In fact, the game is DESIGNED to allow that 'delay' so people can choose to play how they want.

It is though because it gives a reason for folks to pass over necro.

That just depends on how you play and who you play with. In otherwords ... it's an issue you encounter because of choices you make. It's not an issue that requires Anet to solve with game changes because the game design already addresses that issue. The game is designed so that people can choose to play how they want and be successful. Just because people impose additional requirements on their team mates and YOU decide to team with them doesn't mean it's a problem Anet needs to solve for you.

[Sobx.1758]

@"Axl.8924" said:Sobx

Not desired by whom? Some of the people blindly following an online ""guide"" for the top meta theoretical deeps squad comp? Never saw the problem when I had necros in my squad as long as they weren't slacking.

You have to understand that if you are raiding and you got others who can do what you can do but better, then why bring necro? if the utility dmg and condi nec has is inferior in all ways why bring nec?

Also true for vast majority of classes/especs/builds in the game, so not sure what point you're trying to make by pretending that's some kind of isolated case. "but something is stronger!" -cool, most people don't care as that content isn't balanced around strongest options. Which is exactly why I wrote what I wrote before.

Format your post better please so it's clear which parts are quotes and which parts are your answers, I'm not going through that in its current form, just saying.

[Axl.8924]

@Sobx.1758 said:

@"Axl.8924" said:Sobx

Not desired by whom? Some of the people blindly following an online ""guide"" for the top meta theoretical deeps squad comp? Never saw the problem when I had necros in my squad as long as they weren't slacking.

You have to understand that if you are raiding and you got others who can do what you can do but better, then why bring necro? if the utility dmg and condi nec has is inferior in all ways why bring nec?

Also true for vast majority of classes/especs/builds in the game, so not sure what point you're trying to make by pretending that's some kind of isolated case. "but something is stronger!" -cool, most people don't care as that content isn't balanced around strongest options. Which is exactly why I wrote what I wrote before.

Format your post better please so it's clear which parts are quotes and which parts are your answers, I'm not going through that in its current form, just saying.

Its important for a good reason: If you have a class who is weaker than others in all jobs possible in raids, then there is literally no reason to have one, and it creates an excuse not to bring them to raids. Remember the sunwell in world of warcraft where paladins were undesired and unpicked and left out because they literally were underperforming? well thats not good. having dps within a certain threshold to create balance is necessary. It's unbalanced if you have one class doing 41 class and another doing 31 while everyone else does 33-39k damage. If its a support class that has useful support fine, damage being super low is perfectly fine, but if you don't offer much in terms of support for raids damage and condi damage, then its pointless.

Banner warriors for example had low dmg i heard but had good support so it made up for it, and if You are using a chrono for support and its doing low damage, then at least its functioning in 1 role and it makes perfect sense that it won't be doing high damage.

You say so what, but this problem has existed for a long time, and necromancers have been demanding it be fixed somehow and slowly it has, but for the survival of this MMORPG they need to find a way to fix it and make the mechanics necros suffer from due to inneficiency to work.

I cannot ask for necros to get exactly same kinda support a druid or guardian has as that would homogenize the classes and ruin the game, but they c ould at least make the mechanics work in a raid enviroment better so necromancers offensive abilities are desired.

[Obtena.7952]

@Axl.8924 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Axl.8924 said:Sobx

Not desired by whom? Some of the people blindly following an online ""guide"" for the top meta theoretical deeps squad comp? Never saw the problem when I had necros in my squad as long as they weren't slacking.

You have to understand that if you are raiding and you got others who can do what you can do but better, then why bring necro? if the utility dmg and condi nec has is inferior in all ways why bring nec?

Also true for vast majority of classes/especs/builds in the game, so not sure what point you're trying to make by pretending that's some kind of isolated case. "but something is stronger!" -cool, most people don't care as that content isn't balanced around strongest options. Which is exactly why I wrote what I wrote before.

Format your post better please so it's clear which parts are quotes and which parts are your answers, I'm not going through that in its current form, just saying.

Its important for a good reason: If you have a class who is weaker than others in all jobs possible in raids, then there is literally no reason to have one, and it creates an excuse not to bring them to raids.

No, that's false. It's only no reason if you restrict your criteria for building a team to performance. Since the game is balanced around a low performance threshold that enables people to play whatever they want, it is NOT important. Also, let's not pretend the survival of this MMO is somehow contigent on making Necros more acceptable for performance-based teams ... that makes no sense.

If you want necros to be more accepted in performance-based teams, then it's a WIDE open debate on how that could be done. In otherwords, don't assume that 'balance' is easily come by to enable this. You are familiar and I'm certain you have been involved in the discussions about this in the necro forums. Starting that same debate here will not end differently.

[Axl.8924]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Axl.8924 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Axl.8924 said:Sobx

Not desired by whom? Some of the people blindly following an online ""guide"" for the top meta theoretical deeps squad comp? Never saw the problem when I had necros in my squad as long as they weren't slacking.

You have to understand that if you are raiding and you got others who can do what you can do but better, then why bring necro? if the utility dmg and condi nec has is inferior in all ways why bring nec?

Also true for vast majority of classes/especs/builds in the game, so not sure what point you're trying to make by pretending that's some kind of isolated case. "but something is stronger!" -cool, most people don't care as that content isn't balanced around strongest options. Which is exactly why I wrote what I wrote before.

Format your post better please so it's clear which parts are quotes and which parts are your answers, I'm not going through that in its current form, just saying.

Its important for a good reason: If you have a class who is weaker than others in all jobs possible in raids, then there is literally no reason to have one, and it creates an excuse not to bring them to raids.

No, that's false. It's only no reason if you restrict your criteria for building a team to performance. Since the game is balanced around a low performance threshold that enables people to play whatever they want, it is NOT important. Also, let's not pretend the survival of this MMO is somehow contigent on making Necros more acceptable for performance-based teams ... that makes no sense.

If you want necros to be more accepted in performance-based teams, then it's a WIDE open debate on how that could be done. In otherwords, don't assume that 'balance' is easily come by to enable this. You are familiar and I'm certain you have been involved in the discussions about this in the necro forums. Starting that same debate here will not end differently.

I can prove otherwise. In world of warcraft Warlocks are now having issues with m+ because of poor balance choices and it reflects badly on the game as a whole if poor balance is all round.

Its not just necros which are problematic, but a whole lot of other classes mesmers have their issues for instance balance wise thieves for pvp WVW(People are literally discussing wether mobility should have been nerfed earlier instead of touching damage) Which is a interesting topic, but beyond me because i'm not a thief main and although i know a little bit i don't think i can contribute to that. Even if its still possible to raid, it still creates a stigma of rejecting necros and them being black sheeps. If you said well its compensation for having amazing support to one of hte others it would make sense to balance, but even eles and deadeyes can get massive numbers and it just creates too many issues. World of warcraft learned that a certain range of + and - is acceptable and bringing every dps class closer is better, even if they constantly mess up and create classes with huge ramp up like lock.

I'm also done with you there is no arguing with you

[Obtena.7952]

@Axl.8924 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Axl.8924 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Axl.8924 said:Sobx

Not desired by whom? Some of the people blindly following an online ""guide"" for the top meta theoretical deeps squad comp? Never saw the problem when I had necros in my squad as long as they weren't slacking.

You have to understand that if you are raiding and you got others who can do what you can do but better, then why bring necro? if the utility dmg and condi nec has is inferior in all ways why bring nec?

Also true for vast majority of classes/especs/builds in the game, so not sure what point you're trying to make by pretending that's some kind of isolated case. "but something is stronger!" -cool, most people don't care as that content isn't balanced around strongest options. Which is exactly why I wrote what I wrote before.

Format your post better please so it's clear which parts are quotes and which parts are your answers, I'm not going through that in its current form, just saying.

Its important for a good reason: If you have a class who is weaker than others in all jobs possible in raids, then there is literally no reason to have one, and it creates an excuse not to bring them to raids.

No, that's false. It's only no reason if you restrict your criteria for building a team to performance. Since the game is balanced around a low performance threshold that enables people to play whatever they want, it is NOT important. Also, let's not pretend the survival of this MMO is somehow contigent on making Necros more acceptable for performance-based teams ... that makes no sense.

If you want necros to be more accepted in performance-based teams, then it's a WIDE open debate on how that could be done. In otherwords, don't assume that 'balance' is easily come by to enable this. You are familiar and I'm certain you have been involved in the discussions about this in the necro forums. Starting that same debate here will not end differently.

I can prove otherwise. In world of warcraft ...

If we were talking about WoW, your proof might have some relevance to this discussion. This is GW2 and GW2 is PURPOSEFULLY not designed like WoW. Nothing you can present will change the fact that if you impose (or allows others to impose) restrictions on how you play, you aren't playing inline with the design of the game.

[Nephalem.8921]

@Obtena.7952 said:If we were talking about WoW, your proof might have some relevance to this discussion. This is GW2 and GW2 is PURPOSEFULLY not designed like WoW. Nothing you can present will change the fact that if you impose (or allows others to impose) restrictions on how you play, you aren't playing inline with the design of the game.

This arrogance is what made anthem and the first ff14 iteration fail hard. They are not that different afterall. Not looking at highly successful competitors is not working. A dodge key and unified buff/debuff system dont make gw2 completely different. 40% lower dps than the top performer is unacceptable. Scourge just broke wvsw until it got severlely handicapped.

[Sobx.1758]

@Nephalem.8921 said:

@"Obtena.7952" said:If we were talking about WoW, your proof might have some relevance to this discussion. This is GW2 and GW2 is PURPOSEFULLY not designed like WoW. Nothing you can present will change the fact that if you impose (or allows others to impose) restrictions on how you play, you aren't playing inline with the design of the game.

This arrogance is what made anthem and the first ff14 iteration fail hard. They are not that different afterall. Not looking at highly successful competitors is not working. A dodge key and unified buff/debuff system dont make gw2 completely different. 40% lower dps than the top performer is unacceptable.

Yes, dodge button doesn't make it copletely different, but its overall gameplay pattern, content and the line that content/classes are balanced around does make it completely different. And it is acceptable, seeing how it works exactly because of the way the pve is balanced here. Which is not "like in wow".

Scourge just broke wvsw until it got severlely handicapped.

...and what's the relevance here?

[Obtena.7952]

@Nephalem.8921 said:

@"Obtena.7952" said:If we were talking about WoW, your proof might have some relevance to this discussion. This is GW2 and GW2 is PURPOSEFULLY not designed like WoW. Nothing you can present will change the fact that if you impose (or allows others to impose) restrictions on how you play, you aren't playing inline with the design of the game.

This arrogance is what made anthem and the first ff14 iteration fail hard. They are not that different afterall. Not looking at highly successful competitors is not working. A dodge key and unified buff/debuff system dont make gw2 completely different. 40% lower dps than the top performer is unacceptable.

There isn't any arrogance. GW2 does NOT need to follow in the footsteps of highly successful competitors to be an MMO that people want to play. In fact, the proof there is the fact that it's still here. If 40% lower dps than the top performer is unacceptable TO YOU, then don't play that option but DON'T try to pretend this is some barrier to using that option and being successful with it in the game. People can and are successful with that option because of how the game is designed.

See, that's the nonsensical part ... GW2 is designed in this way ... so it follows logically that the classes are balanced around this design, not that of it's highly successful competitors. That wouldn't make sense for Anet to balance classes to some higher threshold of success because it's not necessary and it's not inline with allowing people to play how they want either, which is a major selling point of this game. What would that accomplish given the current success threshold of game content? Saying things like "40% lower dps than the top performer is unacceptable" is just a thinly-veiled ruse to continually push for buffs for people's favoured classes that aren't actually needed in the content you are justifying them for.

[Sobx.1758]

@Axl.8924 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Axl.8924 said:Sobx

Not desired by whom? Some of the people blindly following an online ""guide"" for the top meta theoretical deeps squad comp? Never saw the problem when I had necros in my squad as long as they weren't slacking.

You have to understand that if you are raiding and you got others who can do what you can do but better, then why bring necro? if the utility dmg and condi nec has is inferior in all ways why bring nec?

Also true for vast majority of classes/especs/builds in the game, so not sure what point you're trying to make by pretending that's some kind of isolated case. "but something is stronger!" -cool, most people don't care as that content isn't balanced around strongest options. Which is exactly why I wrote what I wrote before.

Format your post better please so it's clear which parts are quotes and which parts are your answers, I'm not going through that in its current form, just saying.

Its important for a good reason: If you have a class who is weaker than others in all jobs possible in raids, then there is literally no reason to have one,

By this logic there are barely any dps builds viable at all, because there can be just one top pick per encounter. So no, I don't agree with what you've just said.

Banner warriors for example had low dmg i heard but had good support so it made up for it, and if You are using a chrono for support and its doing low damage, then at least its functioning in 1 role and it makes perfect sense that it won't be doing high damage.

But they don't have low dmg. The only people that complain about warrior dps are people that are blindly looking at top dps build and don't want to bring anything else despite there not being a reason for that behavior in this game.

[Agrippa.1693]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Axl.8924 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Axl.8924 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Axl.8924 said:Hopefully some day they fix this necro issue, since its a specific issue to do with mechanics which nerf necromancers suffer efficiency wise compared to other classes.

Except this isn't an issue in PVE because the game isn't designed around needing the highest efficiency builds to be successful. Hopefully, Anet continue to ignore these constant requests to 'fix' issues that would result in the content dictating what builds are needed, resulting in fewer people being able to play the builds they want.

It becomes a issue if that extra damage delays the death of a raid boss and gives it more time to use techs.

Again, that's not an issue. You can be successful if that happens. In fact, the game is DESIGNED to allow that 'delay' so people can choose to play how they want.

It is though because it gives a reason for folks to pass over necro.

That just depends on how you play and who you play with. In otherwords ... it's an issue you encounter because of choices

you

make. It's not an issue that requires Anet to solve with game changes because the game design already addresses that issue. The game is designed so that people can choose to play how they want and be successful.

Lol, is there any game (especially MMORPG's) out there that doesnt give you that choice? I mean, I'd love to see an MMORPG that tells you on the "create your character screen", please don't pick this class, you wont be able to complete the game with it ...

Really, your arguments are completely moot! They're all just givens and don't contribute to any game discussion, really!

[Axl.8924]

@Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Axl.8924 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Axl.8924 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Axl.8924 said:Hopefully some day they fix this necro issue, since its a specific issue to do with mechanics which nerf necromancers suffer efficiency wise compared to other classes.

Except this isn't an issue in PVE because the game isn't designed around needing the highest efficiency builds to be successful. Hopefully, Anet continue to ignore these constant requests to 'fix' issues that would result in the content dictating what builds are needed, resulting in fewer people being able to play the builds they want.

It becomes a issue if that extra damage delays the death of a raid boss and gives it more time to use techs.

Again, that's not an issue. You can be successful if that happens. In fact, the game is DESIGNED to allow that 'delay' so people can choose to play how they want.

It is though because it gives a reason for folks to pass over necro.

That just depends on how you play and who you play with. In otherwords ... it's an issue you encounter because of choices

you

make. It's not an issue that requires Anet to solve with game changes because the game design already addresses that issue. The game is designed so that people can choose to play how they want and be successful.

Lol, is there any game (especially MMORPG's) out there that doesnt give you that choice? I mean, I'd love to see an MMORPG that tells you on the "create your character screen", please don't pick this class, you wont be able to complete the game with it ...

Really, your arguments are completely moot! They're all just givens and don't contribute to

any

game discussion, really!

This is why you need proper balance in pve.

Even if you can do content with lower DPS, if you give foilks a reason to pass you on being brought to a group then there is a good chance they will becasue something is better. A lot of people are obsessed with numbers and statistics as what gets the best results. If its a small numeral difference and your at the bottom its not so bad, but if its quite noticeable between classes, then it shows there is a problem. Necromancer is particularly problematic, because it has tools that don't fit pve well and are better suited for PVP. Some of its CC have minimal effect and although boon corrupt works in fractals at higher tiers, lower tier fractals enemies have minimal buffs and minimal amount of condis to corrupt, and barrier i heard fits more practice groups for raids or casual runs with bad players. I haven't seen these kind of severe limitations on other classes, and perhaps i'm wrong since i'm not able to play scourge, i do have experience with core and reaper, as i play a lot of those.

These things i said ring true, because In the past of GW and recently, we had classes who's support was underwhelming and others that were outright required for raid( mesmer and guardians) This proves it was poorly adjusted. I'm not saying mesmers and guardians shouldn't be good at what they do, but there should be possibility of at least some options of others who can fill in said role.

[Obtena.7952]

@Axl.8924 said:

@Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Axl.8924 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Axl.8924 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Axl.8924 said:Hopefully some day they fix this necro issue, since its a specific issue to do with mechanics which nerf necromancers suffer efficiency wise compared to other classes.

Except this isn't an issue in PVE because the game isn't designed around needing the highest efficiency builds to be successful. Hopefully, Anet continue to ignore these constant requests to 'fix' issues that would result in the content dictating what builds are needed, resulting in fewer people being able to play the builds they want.

It becomes a issue if that extra damage delays the death of a raid boss and gives it more time to use techs.

Again, that's not an issue. You can be successful if that happens. In fact, the game is DESIGNED to allow that 'delay' so people can choose to play how they want.

It is though because it gives a reason for folks to pass over necro.

That just depends on how you play and who you play with. In otherwords ... it's an issue you encounter because of choices

you

make. It's not an issue that requires Anet to solve with game changes because the game design already addresses that issue. The game is designed so that people can choose to play how they want and be successful.

Lol, is there any game (especially MMORPG's) out there that doesnt give you that choice? I mean, I'd love to see an MMORPG that tells you on the "create your character screen", please don't pick this class, you wont be able to complete the game with it ...

Really, your arguments are completely moot! They're all just givens and don't contribute to

any

game discussion, really!

This is why you need proper balance in pve.

Even if you can do content with lower DPS, if you give foilks a reason to pass you on being brought to a group then there is a good chance they will becasue something is better.

Playing with people that tell you how to play is not a reason to change a class in a game that is designed and works to allow you to play how you want.

[Sobx.1758]

@Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Axl.8924 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Axl.8924 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Axl.8924 said:Hopefully some day they fix this necro issue, since its a specific issue to do with mechanics which nerf necromancers suffer efficiency wise compared to other classes.

Except this isn't an issue in PVE because the game isn't designed around needing the highest efficiency builds to be successful. Hopefully, Anet continue to ignore these constant requests to 'fix' issues that would result in the content dictating what builds are needed, resulting in fewer people being able to play the builds they want.

It becomes a issue if that extra damage delays the death of a raid boss and gives it more time to use techs.

Again, that's not an issue. You can be successful if that happens. In fact, the game is DESIGNED to allow that 'delay' so people can choose to play how they want.

It is though because it gives a reason for folks to pass over necro.

That just depends on how you play and who you play with. In otherwords ... it's an issue you encounter because of choices

you

make. It's not an issue that requires Anet to solve with game changes because the game design already addresses that issue. The game is designed so that people can choose to play how they want and be successful.please don't pick this class, you wont be able to complete the game with it ...

But that's not true in this game and in this case, what are you even talking about right now? If you're suggesting that you can't complete it with necro (or that it's even remotely hard), then that's just false. If that's not what you're suggesting, then I don't understand what point you're trying to make by typing something like this out.

[Axl.8924]

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Axl.8924 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Axl.8924 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Axl.8924 said:Hopefully some day they fix this necro issue, since its a specific issue to do with mechanics which nerf necromancers suffer efficiency wise compared to other classes.

Except this isn't an issue in PVE because the game isn't designed around needing the highest efficiency builds to be successful. Hopefully, Anet continue to ignore these constant requests to 'fix' issues that would result in the content dictating what builds are needed, resulting in fewer people being able to play the builds they want.

It becomes a issue if that extra damage delays the death of a raid boss and gives it more time to use techs.

Again, that's not an issue. You can be successful if that happens. In fact, the game is DESIGNED to allow that 'delay' so people can choose to play how they want.

It is though because it gives a reason for folks to pass over necro.

That just depends on how you play and who you play with. In otherwords ... it's an issue you encounter because of choices

you

make. It's not an issue that requires Anet to solve with game changes because the game design already addresses that issue. The game is designed so that people can choose to play how they want and be successful.please don't pick this class, you wont be able to complete the game with it ...

But that's not true in this game and in this case, what are you even talking about right now? If you're suggesting that you can't complete it with necro (or that it's even remotely hard), then that's just false. If that's not what you're suggesting, then I don't understand what point you're trying to make by typing something like this out.

I didn't say you can't i said that its encouraging people not to pick a class due to limits for raids. That is all since i don't want to repeat myself.

[Sobx.1758]

@Axl.8924 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Axl.8924 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Axl.8924 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Axl.8924 said:Hopefully some day they fix this necro issue, since its a specific issue to do with mechanics which nerf necromancers suffer efficiency wise compared to other classes.

Except this isn't an issue in PVE because the game isn't designed around needing the highest efficiency builds to be successful. Hopefully, Anet continue to ignore these constant requests to 'fix' issues that would result in the content dictating what builds are needed, resulting in fewer people being able to play the builds they want.

It becomes a issue if that extra damage delays the death of a raid boss and gives it more time to use techs.

Again, that's not an issue. You can be successful if that happens. In fact, the game is DESIGNED to allow that 'delay' so people can choose to play how they want.

It is though because it gives a reason for folks to pass over necro.

That just depends on how you play and who you play with. In otherwords ... it's an issue you encounter because of choices

you

make. It's not an issue that requires Anet to solve with game changes because the game design already addresses that issue. The game is designed so that people can choose to play how they want and be successful.please don't pick this class, you wont be able to complete the game with it ...

But that's not true in this game and in this case, what are you even talking about right now? If you're suggesting that you can't complete it with necro (or that it's even remotely hard), then that's just false. If that's not what you're suggesting, then I don't understand what point you're trying to make by typing something like this out.

I didn't say you can't i said that its encouraging people not to pick a class due to limits for raids. That is all since i don't want to repeat myself.

Was I responding to your post here?

On the other hand, you've left the post where I was actually talking to you, so I'm a bit confused about what you're saying here along with that condescending(?) "don't want to repeat myself".

[Axl.8924]

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Axl.8924 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Axl.8924 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Axl.8924 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Axl.8924 said:Hopefully some day they fix this necro issue, since its a specific issue to do with mechanics which nerf necromancers suffer efficiency wise compared to other classes.

Except this isn't an issue in PVE because the game isn't designed around needing the highest efficiency builds to be successful. Hopefully, Anet continue to ignore these constant requests to 'fix' issues that would result in the content dictating what builds are needed, resulting in fewer people being able to play the builds they want.

It becomes a issue if that extra damage delays the death of a raid boss and gives it more time to use techs.

Again, that's not an issue. You can be successful if that happens. In fact, the game is DESIGNED to allow that 'delay' so people can choose to play how they want.

It is though because it gives a reason for folks to pass over necro.

That just depends on how you play and who you play with. In otherwords ... it's an issue you encounter because of choices

you

make. It's not an issue that requires Anet to solve with game changes because the game design already addresses that issue. The game is designed so that people can choose to play how they want and be successful.please don't pick this class, you wont be able to complete the game with it ...

But that's not true in this game and in this case, what are you even talking about right now? If you're suggesting that you can't complete it with necro (or that it's even remotely hard), then that's just false. If that's not what you're suggesting, then I don't understand what point you're trying to make by typing something like this out.

I didn't say you can't i said that its encouraging people not to pick a class due to limits for raids. That is all since i don't want to repeat myself.

Was I responding to your post here?

On the other hand, you've left the post where I was actually talking to you, so I'm a bit confused about what you're saying here along with that condescending(?) "don't want to repeat myself".

Well i mean repeat as in: I've said the same thing in this thread to explain myself and waste people's time.

Was i condescending? if it came out that way i'm sorry it wasn't my intention to.

[Sobx.1758]

@Axl.8924 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Axl.8924 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Axl.8924 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Axl.8924 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Axl.8924 said:Hopefully some day they fix this necro issue, since its a specific issue to do with mechanics which nerf necromancers suffer efficiency wise compared to other classes.

Except this isn't an issue in PVE because the game isn't designed around needing the highest efficiency builds to be successful. Hopefully, Anet continue to ignore these constant requests to 'fix' issues that would result in the content dictating what builds are needed, resulting in fewer people being able to play the builds they want.

It becomes a issue if that extra damage delays the death of a raid boss and gives it more time to use techs.

Again, that's not an issue. You can be successful if that happens. In fact, the game is DESIGNED to allow that 'delay' so people can choose to play how they want.

It is though because it gives a reason for folks to pass over necro.

That just depends on how you play and who you play with. In otherwords ... it's an issue you encounter because of choices

you

make. It's not an issue that requires Anet to solve with game changes because the game design already addresses that issue. The game is designed so that people can choose to play how they want and be successful.please don't pick this class, you wont be able to complete the game with it ...

But that's not true in this game and in this case, what are you even talking about right now? If you're suggesting that you can't complete it with necro (or that it's even remotely hard), then that's just false. If that's not what you're suggesting, then I don't understand what point you're trying to make by typing something like this out.

I didn't say you can't i said that its encouraging people not to pick a class due to limits for raids. That is all since i don't want to repeat myself.

Was I responding to your post here?

On the other hand, you've left the post where I was actually talking to you, so I'm a bit confused about what you're saying here along with that condescending(?) "don't want to repeat myself".

Well i mean repeat as in: I've said the same thing in this thread to explain myself and waste people's time.

Was i condescending? if it came out that way i'm sorry it wasn't my intention to.

...but you understand that you were answering to the post that wasn't even responding to you, which makes that "I don't want to repeat myself" even more out of place?

[Axl.8924]

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Axl.8924 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Axl.8924 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Axl.8924 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Axl.8924 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Axl.8924 said:Hopefully some day they fix this necro issue, since its a specific issue to do with mechanics which nerf necromancers suffer efficiency wise compared to other classes.

Except this isn't an issue in PVE because the game isn't designed around needing the highest efficiency builds to be successful. Hopefully, Anet continue to ignore these constant requests to 'fix' issues that would result in the content dictating what builds are needed, resulting in fewer people being able to play the builds they want.

It becomes a issue if that extra damage delays the death of a raid boss and gives it more time to use techs.

Again, that's not an issue. You can be successful if that happens. In fact, the game is DESIGNED to allow that 'delay' so people can choose to play how they want.

It is though because it gives a reason for folks to pass over necro.

That just depends on how you play and who you play with. In otherwords ... it's an issue you encounter because of choices

you

make. It's not an issue that requires Anet to solve with game changes because the game design already addresses that issue. The game is designed so that people can choose to play how they want and be successful.please don't pick this class, you wont be able to complete the game with it ...

But that's not true in this game and in this case, what are you even talking about right now? If you're suggesting that you can't complete it with necro (or that it's even remotely hard), then that's just false. If that's not what you're suggesting, then I don't understand what point you're trying to make by typing something like this out.

I didn't say you can't i said that its encouraging people not to pick a class due to limits for raids. That is all since i don't want to repeat myself.

Was I responding to your post here?

On the other hand, you've left the post where I was actually talking to you, so I'm a bit confused about what you're saying here along with that condescending(?) "don't want to repeat myself".

Well i mean repeat as in: I've said the same thing in this thread to explain myself and waste people's time.

Was i condescending? if it came out that way i'm sorry it wasn't my intention to.

...but you understand that you were answering to the post that wasn't even responding to you, which makes that "I don't want to repeat myself" even more out of place?

I wasn't sure since i got a notification of your post which only tends to happen if:

A: you are responding to me.B: responding to someone responding to me.C: if you respond to a thread i make.