Build diversity!

[UNOwen.7132]

@UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

@"UNOwen.7132" said:

The thief and the other players arent very good. Of course he is able to enter and exit stealth more often than normal. But even with 4 might, thats a lot less damage.

He is stealthing less than what most thieves would do. Could very easily get up to 10+ might.

No, he stealths more. Most thieves dont stealth in-combat if they can avoid it. And no, he couldnt, he is pretty limited by initiative.

At 15%, not always, but 10+%? Usually. That with Flanking Strikes is 15%. It wasnt the reason Trickery was mandatory, no. But it was a lot of damage. Damage the thief was missing out on.

Players were usually not running flanking strikes, because you'd have to give up more important stuff.

Quite a few were. Thrill of the crime wasnt as important back then, especially with the rune choices.

Yea right, who needs fury and swiftness anyway ... Certainly not someone who wants to deal dmg and be mobile.

Didnt you just show that crit strikes was played, which granted fury? Plus, I did say rune choices. There was a certain rune thieves used that gave fury and swiftness.

Oh yeah, lesser haste used to be in CS not Trickery. You could be right. But then he is still missing DA, and all the damge from it.But if he had DA he would be missing CS and all the dmg from it. So what then?

Well, he couldve dropped SA and had both, for example.

Today you could run DA (with exe) + CS for more dmg, poison and immob, and a much better SA line as well as better base steal (45s cd, just lol). Or either DA or CS for similar dmg, a much better SA line and well, "mandatory" TR. Or drop SA as that wasn't really meta back then anyway and run DA,CS and TR. Lots of dmg. Or just go with the meta build which is much better than all of those - and takes a traitline that didn't even exist back then.

You cant run CS. Its

bad

. It turns off way too easily. But even if you could, itd be

less

damage,

less

poison (more on this later) and

less

immob for no actual benefit. Also, Trickery was mandatory. Steal was never 45 second cd. And sure, you could run DA/CS/TR. It would still be a lot less damage.

Also you basically do get one additional traitline, because you get 4 more traits and many traits got merged or made baseline, so one current trait is worth more than a single trait back then, eg. you wouldn't get stealth on steal, cd reduction on deception skills, movement speed increase in stealth, initiative regen in stealth all in one build, let alone in addition to stealth on heal, the life steal, poison application and boonrip you can get now. Similar applies to other stuff, eg steal cd reduction or baseline range increase (on core) or unblockable steal (on daredevil).

On other classes? Maybe. For thief, the only skills that were combined were the ones noone ever used. Trickery is basically the same (moved the steal reduction from the stats you got, which is baseline, to a minor trait, which is baseline), DA was basically the same, and Daredevil isnt any of them. So no, not really. You get about half a trait.

DA had less dmg modifiers (max 15% ?), it was mainly run for panic strike. Now you can get exe, and still ~6-10% from exposed weakness (potentially more, especially in a +1 situation) on top of that juicy immob. Crit dmg from CS is more or less baseline now, you get more fury and additional modifiers/crit now. SA buffed/traits merged. Acro idk - guess it kinda got replaced by DD which offeres similar defense and more dmg. TR was always strong so not much reasons to buff it further. Still got some minor indirect buffs with steal cd reduction and range increase.

WRONG

. DA had a lot more damage modifiers. It had 10% from exposed weakness, 5% from dagger training, 300 power from picking the traitline and if you really wanted more damage, vuln on crit. Plus of course mug. Now you get at most 4-6% from exposed weakness, dont get dagger training, and executioner, well, there is a reason improv was always picked over executioner. It only adds damage when it no longer matters. Crit strikes adds a lot less damage now. SA is the only one that improved. Acrobatics and TR got nerfed

hard

.

Stats are baseline now. You can still get vuln (and might) from DA if you drop panic strike. Well, there is a reason executioner was a meta trait back then despite being in an - according to you - much worse traitline. So if the trait was worth picking back then and now there is another trait which is even better - how can both be worse than what you had back then? Logic nowhere to be found.

No, some of them were partially baked into amulets, but still not 100%. If you used those stats well, you lost them. You can get vuln, yes, but its after your backstab, so no way to really capitalise it. Executioner was meta because in crit strikes (Which back then was fine) there wasnt much of a better grandmaster. It still wasnt great. Nowadays? There is a good grandmaster to pick instead.

TR did not get nerfed.

It was nerfed hard. I dont know why you repeat a falsehood as if you expect it to magically become true.

DA/SA/TR can backstab the light golem for 6,8k, that's not counting the lifesteal dmg which would put it above 7k. DE can achive numbers above 10k. And that's when only looking at backstab. Other skills, eg. shadow shot, cluster bomb, heartseeker tend to hit harder compared to old times, because their dmg hasn't been nerfed so they get full benefits from stronger traits. Dmg is there if build for it and hitting squishy targets.

It cannot. I tried, but even on berserker scholar DA/SA/TR with a steal backstab 5.2k was the highest I could get. Hell, even pre-stacking Lead Attacks and steal backstabbing (completely unrealistic) I could only reach 6k. So I'll have to call bull on that one. DE is extremely unrealistic and can be disregarded. Also Shadow Shot got nerfed in its initiative cost. And its funny that you say "they get full benefits from stronger traits" even though thief traits are

weaker

now. Lead attacks? Nerfed. Mug? Nerfed. Thrill of the crime? Nerfed. Exposed Weakness? Nerfed in most situations. Oh and the second trait you can pick in DA is worse, because you cant pick a 5% damage up on daggers anymore. The damage isnt there. Because everything is a lot weaker. People already build for damage, and its just not much. Granted thief is still good, but thats not the point.

It can with executioner. And how did Lead attacks get nerfed? You are more likely to get 10%+ dmg out of it now. Mug only hits for slightly less - and can be used a little bit more often. You can now get both panic strike and executioner in one build as well as more modifiers overall. Thrill of crime did get buffed. SA buffed (a lot of "merged traits"). Steal and everything steal related indirectly buffed. DD is also an upgrade over core in many cases.

As stated above, there is a reason executioner wasnt being run. So that damage is basically not relevant.

As stated there is a reason why executioner was used back then. Youself brought up a video showcasing executioner dmg against low health targets and pretending it would be the dmg thief were hitting regulary. The trait is exactly the same now as is was back then, there just happens to be even better stuff now that didn't exist back then, that's why it isn't taken anymore.

Because there was no alternative. Which is no longer relevant. And yeah, the video did use executioner, though his damage was still higher without executioner. And as I said, the thief was still far below actual damage. The trait is the same as it was before, now it just has an actual alternative.

"There is nothing that thief could do back then that it can't do now better. Nothing. It was just not possible with the old trait system." This is completely opposite from the truth. In reality there is nothing thief can do now that it couldn't do better. Thief did more damage, was more survivable, had more utility, more CC, and even more sustain for the hell of it. So yeah, youre wrong. Sorry.

Then tell me where all those things came from? Where did the dmg, survivability, the utility, the cc and sustain come from and why does the vid you posted show nothing of it. I'm not a thief player, so please show me this infamous build that would mop the floor with current meta specs.

I mean damage should be obvious. A suboptimal build using 30 points in SA does more damage than the optimal damage build right now with 3 offensive traitlines

despite

stats overall being lower. Survivability, well, you used to have better evades, more vigor uptime, a better feline grace, better mug, better utilities, better healing, I can go on. Utility, well, better utility skills and trickery traits. CC, Basilisk Venom used to be ridiculously much better. Sustain is the same as defense. The video shows

everything

. It shows a thief doing a lot more damage, while having more defenses (passive armour from SA) a lot more healing (Again, SA, you can see it tick for 300 per second), better CC (Even uses the tripwire, for some reason), better utility, etc. And again. Thats not a good thief.

A suboptimal build taking SA and executioner deals about the same dmg then and now - but now you can also take TR in addition and SA is overall better. When building for maximum dmg (no SA neither then nor now) backstab and mug hit for about the same and overall dmg is higher.

Completely incorrect. A suboptimal build taking SA before dealt a lot more damage than the optimal max damage build right now. When comparing the max damage builds between then and now, even if we ignore that CS is bad because it fails in realistic scenarios, right now the most you can get on backstab is like, 7k in the best scenario. In the old days? 10k+, easily. You did

way

more damage. Mug even moreso. Overall damage is a

LOT

lower now.

The highest i have ever been hit back then (in WvW!) was a 12k backstab and that was a one-time "all stars aligned" type of thing. 10k+ was extremely rare and only ever achieved by some signet meme builds. And that type of build can still get to those numbers. Considering backstab dmg itself got nerfed, there has to be more dmg from elsewhere. Hint: Don't look at SA.

Then you have not been playing at that point at all. 12k wasnt even particularly high. 10k+ was common, not extremely rare, and was achieved by the standard builds. That type of build cannot achieve that anymore. Also, Hint: SA is the best damage traitline you can pick.

Better evades how? Dash > Core dodge. DD also offers more evasion that core d/p had back then. Can take daggerstorm for evade now, not an option back then. Feline grace? Not used by d/p afaik. Ofc s/d has more evade than d/p. Don't mix up builds.

For evasion Dash is worse. Because if you get crippled and try to dodge, you can kiss your endurance regeneration goodbye. DD doesnt offer any additional evasion to D/P. Daggerstorm, sure, but then you have no CC. But Withdraw had a much lower cooldown, Signet of agility was much better.If you get immobilized and you try to dodge without dash - gl ... The mobility it offers also lets you get out of range of more skills with a single dodge, that's also some kind of "evasion". If it was bad it wouldn't be used.

"What is withdraw" for 500. Immobilise wasnt an issue back then either. The mobility it offers is miniscule. Its good because it lets you move around the map and gain easy swiftness, but its worse for evasion.

Better utilities? Which? Shadow Step buffed, Blinding Powder buffed, Agility Signet removes more condis (at the cost of some endurance - but DD makes up for that), so overall better i guess as it wasn't used back then. Deceptions overall better, because now you can run cd reduction trait. Trickery was basically the same. Basi wasn't unblockable and didn't apply to allies, no life steal.

Utility, not utility skills. Theyre different things. Basilisk Venom was unstunbreakable, and immobilised as well. It also stunned for longer. And otherwise, in terms of utility, thief now provides more of everything.Unbreakability was removed shortly after release. Immob is long gone too. It never stunned for longer, there was just a time when you got 2 charges for 1s each, so technically you could get 2s of stun but most of the time the 2nd stun would just override the first one. Now you can get even longer cc chain with allies arround. But yes, thief now provides more of everything, finally we can agree.

It was, then it was returned, and then removed again in Q4 of 2013. Immob was removed in 2013 or 2014. It stunned for longer before, i.e. 1.5 seconds. You could use a trait to get 2 charges to stun for 3. You can cc chain less with allies around. And sorry, that was a typo. Theif now provides less of everything.

Passive armor got partially moved to gear. No dmg mitigation from DD traits. 45s cd on mug (now it would be 20s = double healing from that trait), less stealth = less healing from shadowy rejuvenation, despite higher heal per tick. No healing from life stealing. Garbage cc (tripwire was never worth a slot). Better utility? More like zero utility. No boonrip, no aoe basi venom, no unblockable cc, no aoe condi cleanse, less (aoe) stealth, less mobility.

To gear thief doesnt use. So thats not there. Not sure what the second means. Trickery was still mandatory, so thats the wrong cooldown. Just as much stealth, not less. And ... wait are you comparing to

that

thief specifically? Yeah he was bad, and so was his build. You should compare it to a thief with an actually good build. He would have everything you mention, and better.

Base armor is a bit higher now, doesn't need to run toughness gear. Or do you play naked? Would explain some stuff ...

A bit. But not enough to make up for it.

And you brought up that thief and literally said "This thief would completely wipe the floor with a current thief". You keep talking about dmg modifiers from DA and CS, healing/stealth from SA and TR while completely ignoring that you couldn't get all those things in one build back then. Now you actually can.

Oh he would, thats still true. But an even better thief would too. You could get everything you wanted back then. Nothing has changed there.

Indeed, that's not a good thief. A good thief back then would had a bit more dmg, but it would also have less survivability and still less utility (no daredevil and SA - both add a lot of survivability). If more dmg would be worth giving up SA and DD - thieves would do that now. Do they?

"A bit more damage"? Try "more than twice as much". More utility too. Survivability is the only thing you could argue it might have less (except the fact that old thief had more sustain, evade and blind probably means even that isnt true). Also, you

cant

get more damage by giving up SA and DD. Theyre the max damage traitlines. In fact ironically here you shoot yourself in the foot, because in terms of actual defense, DA is better than SA, because Mugs healing is still really good, as is the extra instant weakness and improv. But SA does more damage, so its being picked. So yeah, they do.

More than twice as much? Ok, please show me those 20+ backstabs with the old trait system. I'm waiting ... Or wait, i just linked a video above, showcasing an actually good thief build from back then, so how about you take this and point out all those big numbers? Because for some reasons i couldn't find those moments.

Why 20k+? Backstab hits for 4k-4.5k now, not 10k. So all the backstabs would need to hit for is 8-9k. Also, that video shows exactly 2 backstabs in total, and theyre both frontstabs. And uh, well

speaks for itself, doesnt it? 8.7k backstab. No assassin's signet used. In general if you look at the video, you see damage that thieves nowadays can only dream of. 3k autoattacks. 5k 50% hp heartseekers. Yeah.

Defensive stats weren't really lower, especially when it comes to vitality, because you still had all those tanky amulets that got removed now. Overall survivability is still higher nowadays, because of boons, traits and skills. So those 6k in the vid would have been less vs todays meta builds (if you'd have even lived long enough to land any dmg).

You had tanky amulets which werent used, yes. Thats not really relevant. Overall survivability is

lower

nowadays, but damage is too, so it seems like it might be higher. The 6k in that video would've been

more

vs todays meta builds (because offensive stats increased), and you wouldve had a much easier time living long enough to land damage. Like, if you put old thief in todays meta, it would probably win most 1v1s and crush current thief, full stop.

Nobody was using amulets without defensive stats (as even zerk would provide vitality) and soldier, cele, cleric were pretty common too. That thief who got backstabbed for 6k had ~ 1,9k armor and no additional dmg mitigation, and that 6k backstab was an outlier in your video, not the norm. Todays thief has 10-30% dmg reduction, weakness, more cleanses, more boon rip, same or more boons, more poison, more stunbreaks, more mobility, more evasion, about as much blind, same or more cc, similar or more healing, ...

It was an outlier because he kept getting facestabs instead of backstabs. The lowest his backstab hit was 4.7k on a Cele Engineer though. You hit a lot less than 4.7k on a celestial build right now. If you look at the fronstabs though, a lot of them wouldve hit for 6.3k or even higher. So it wasnt an outlier at all. It was the norm.

Defensive amulets were frowned upon in dueling so i doubt he was fighting many if any cele builds in that vid. Chances are high that most of his opponents were running zerk. Also he is backstabbing the warrior for 3,9k, frontstabbing the engi for 2k, that would be a 4k backstab. Most of the time he is just autoattacking because he does not have enough initiative to do much else and it only works because his opponents are absolute garbage. The only time he is getting noticeable higher dmg is against sub 50% health because of executioner. Take exe now and you get the same results - with an overall much better package.

Engineer and Thief have the same defense. The damage however was far apart. The engineer was 100% picking Celestial, or some other toughness amulet. He was frontstabbing the warrior for 3.9k, and we saw the backstab on the engineer later (Also crit is more than 100%). And yes, the thief plays badly, but even so, he

always

gets noticably higher damage. Take executioner now ,and you get

worse

results with an overall much

worse

package.

3,9k vs warrior are clearly from the back. There is no way he would backstab for 8k without exe modifier when you look at his overall dmg. And since exe is irrelevant anyway (your words), so should be his numbers against sub 50% hp. And then he caps out at slightly above 5k backstabs. With a proper build (that had way less survivability) that would have been arround 6k maybe. Totally "more than twice as much dmg" yes.

Oh, yeah, I guess youre right. Though, warrior likely uses armour as well. However, "With a proper build (that had way less survivability) that would have been arround 6k maybe." is the most stupid thing you have said so far. Yes, by increasing his damage by at least 40+%, he would only get ... 20% damage. Yeah that makes no sense.

I'll stop here now because you are just repeating the same delusional nonsense while ignoring facts and these walls of text are getting out of hand.

No, youre stopping because youre quickly realising you have no ground to stand on. Youre the one ignoring facts.

[UNOwen.7132]

@UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

I don't know bout the rest of the stuff but I can assure u thief did far more damage in the past. Ur crazy 8k backstab was basically my low BS's and only required eagle and mauraders in conquest and in wvw a build built for power and just cs could do 14k on squishies. As we speak a cs/da/trick build with zerk and scholars now gets 8k or slightly more if u crit and opponent is squishy and meets hp criteria for executioner on top of might stolen. Couple yrs back that same build would give my 18k crits against squishies in conquest and 20k in wvw.That said I'm definitely not saying thiefs damage is low by any means in today's version of gw2 but to say it does same damage as in the past is wrong.

You did not get those numbers pre trait rework. After HoT yes, 14k backstabs were a thing and after PoF 20k+, but that's not what i'm talking about.

Haha oh I assure u post pof I certainly did.Core da/tric/cs with hidden data 213, tric 312 and cs 322 with scholars and zerk great in wvw often produced 20k crit backstabs when hitting squishies at half or lower hp and 16-18k at full hp :) 14k was doable with dd if u ran cs/zerk/scholar. Then damage nerfs kept coming in every patch, some where easily called like assassin sig, thief was still good at bursting.This feb patch was a complete disaster for all classes, even more so for some. Not suprising population in pvp is trash compared to yrs ago.

This type of build you are talking about didn't exist pre trait rework. You probably didn't play back then, otherwise you would know what i'm talking about.

No, but

type of build did exist. And this was when stats were lower and damage was relatively stronger, so thats equivalent to more than that in todays terms. Still going to say that thief totally didnt do more damage before?

Seriously, if you have 2 seperate people who actually played the class back then telling you that youre wrong, about a class you admitted yourself you dont really know, maybe consider the option that youre just wrong.

[Shao.7236]

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@Shao.7236 said:

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@Shao.7236 said:

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@Shao.7236 said:Metabattle and relative sites are a bad influence, there is a lot of builds to have and in a viable state.

They simply don't care to show anything but meta because all they care about is the meta. It's in their terms, you'll never find many builds on their site that would indicate "build diversity" to keep their site "clean".

The diversity is something you can see by doing it yourself and watching players that care to see how more things can be achieved, it's been way more noticeable since the Feb patch that a lot of stuff began to be playable but also fun.

Build diversity doesn't mean "swap around some utilities and weapons", it means high performing builds against everything else that is not a bronze/hotjoin hero or

badly programmed bot

. Yes people can run full glyph or full conjure ele and can call it..."build diversity"...

Please show me this build diversity of yours?

Can I please see a video of you playing a core ele? core engi?core mesmer? or any other class not currently streamed across the board?

Missing the point. Like it's /really/ hard to make something viable when you know how the game works.

from a long time ago before Febuary, Tetherbreaker was still a thing.

way before it was meta and affected by the Febuary patch, Tetherbreaker still a thing.

before the Febuary patch and it made through Hanz that curated it as Good, that needs to be updated anyway for today. Tetherbreaker still a thing.

after Febuary patch, my most recent with the Berserker Glass Shiro/Jalis Renegade coming next if I care enough. Still labeled under test on Metabattle.

As I have said...for you we can run a tempest with a warhorn and gliphs...another tempest with scepter and signets and lastly a tempest with staff.....in the end you'd call them "3 different builds"....whatever you say bro...enjoy this sinking ship to your heart content

Making up stupid arguements for demands that don't exist, out of every build I posted, there's about 4 variants to come out with the same role. I think you're too far lost in the idea that you know better than everyone else.

If as a Rev right now with core and elites I can do 3 different builds for all 3 different roles with all 3 different classes, how is that /lacking/?

You can actually play Tempest right now so that's already better than before where it's existence was forgotten.

Ok you call other stupid....ok I need to L2P..ok you're the best......

can we actually see a streming video of you playing ele with its sublime build diversity against anything with a pulse above gold1 level ( where I assume people know where the dodge button is) ?

So far you have done nothing else but showing slight variations of a build which has been barely touched in PvP and remains one of the most broken specs currently in WvW?

There are people who have been playing ele for 12k+ hours since launch...others have won world tournaments on the class....they all agree on the state on the class but here you come saying that all eles must L2P and can only copy/paste from a website...after 8 years of using the class.

Yes I need to L2P...everybody maining an ele must L2P, ofc .....hey guys here!

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PGgEsEW2ALhNyQYn4QfZ20A-zZJME0GA

There! build diversity achieved! I call it : "Arcanist" an offensive support tempest with loads of aoe.......

What you're telling me has nothing to do with what I said. If you're referring to when I said way before in another topic that I find Core Elementalist viable in 1v1 situations, that's because it is? Pretty much anything is with the power creep having gone down.

Otherwise, you clearly claim that because builds all look similar and barely have anything different, there is no build diversity at all, it goes as far as saying that you're looking at the game such as there being no different professions and only one build to rule them all, which is definitely not true.

The tiniest changes can make the biggest differences given that we all have singular traits that we favor over others because of (Shocker) their purpose.

This isn't about L2P but the reasoning that you come to conclusion with.

If it's not exactly a copy, it's not the same. No matter how small difference is. Revenant, Engineer and Elementalist have little weapons to work with, so I can understand why you'd think so, but no. There's a lot that can be done if you care enough.

[RedShark.9548]

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@RedShark.9548 said:

@dani.5680 said:

@Exile.8160 said:

@"Megametzler.5729" said:In my experience, build diversity went up quite a lot. Sure, there are still many guards and necros, but there were just as many before the patch. Now there are more variations on warriors, tempests are coming back, even seen more mesmers (though not yet statistically relevant).

Put an ICD on Eternal Armory and guard is fine. Maaaybe change Rune of the Trapper. But I am having fun blasting them out of existance from range, they are horribly slow and once out of stealth can't really surprise you with anything. Only watch out for F1, that's about it.

So basically kill of the last bit of dmg/build guards have? Theyve been over neef in everytbing else.

So instead of trying to delete a class how about suguest buff on other parts before you call for nerfs

see how things works? players start to cry about the dh, they nerf the dh into the ground, deleting one more viable class instead of buffing others!so, why devs nerf things instead of buffing? isnt that crazy? i watched few weeks ago some patch notes of different games, guess what: 96% OF THE PATCH NOTES WAS ABOUT CLASSES/HEROES GETTING BUFFED, 4% OF SMALL NERFS!I think the build diversity is lower than when the game started and you could see at a 5vs5 ranked game at least 6 different build, sorry but its the truth!

Dude, you must be new to gw2.Buffing every class instead of nerfing 1 is what got us to what we got now. They used to just buff everything and the powercreep went out of controll, everybody just oneshotting each other. Thats the whole reason why they toned down everything and they sure as hell dont want to start the same thing over again.

The OP is way right...and you are way wrong

Is this the "healthy" game you're referring to? 4 Professions out of 9 being played in PvP?

People really think that GW2 will last as long as WoW.......

I was stating a literal fact of how they used to balance and what they are trying now. There is no right or wrong about that.I never said the game is in a healthy state.Thats the reason im not playing it anymore, and ive played since release.

You totally missed my post.

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:I'm on 7 yrs now man lolAre you drunk? He writes about 2012-2014 days when traits were still giving stats and you could invest max 70 points between all 5 trait lines.These 10k+ were rare but could happen in core days, but damage was like doubled after HoT and PoF release.He's talking about apples and you bring your banyanyas on the table.

[lare.5129]

@dani.5680 said:I have never seen a game where instead of creating more builds, they destroy some.? game no create or destroy, It depend from you only.

When i look at other game, theywhen I play other game I play other game, if I play gw2 - I play gw2.

You guys just destroy builds.I am long time time celestial tief, now swap to core bunker warrior with long bow, pres in last season condi chrno. Biulds choose you, not someone else.

And those are not nerfeswho care nerf? yes role thief is a little bit killed, and this si gift for us ! we have good chance to try other class.

Well i enjoy my 4warr vs 4warr of 4 guard vs 4 guard fights now! Thank you!yes, it is fun.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

@TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:I'm on 7 yrs now man lolAre you drunk? He writes about 2012-2014 days when traits were still giving stats and you could invest max 70 points between all 5 trait lines.These 10k+ were rare but could happen in core days, but damage was like doubled after HoT and PoF release.He's talking about apples and you bring your banyanyas on the table.

No not drunk, are u? That was obviously in reply to the fact that I'm aware what damage thief used to do as it was the only class I played 7 yrs ago and for 5 yrs after. Not sure how that is confusing for u?And for ur bananayas on table wtf that means I apologize I'm not the type of player nor have ever been or will be that takes screen shots or goes all detective mode to gather concrete evidence of stuff in a game from yrs ago to post and back up my claim cuz who has time for that shit or even cares enough, it's a mmo video game for ...... sakes haha who cares really.

[Khalisto.5780]

I wonder how many ppl here just copy paste builds from MB and GoP and never tried something that they made themselves

[lare.5129]

@Khalisto.5780 said:I wonder how many ppl here just copy paste builds from MB and GoP and never tried something that they made themselvesI am think 95% aprox. And this is ok

[Khalisto.5780]

@lare.5129 said:

@Khalisto.5780 said:I wonder how many ppl here just copy paste builds from MB and GoP and never tried something that they made themselvesI am think 95% aprox. And this is ok

It's ok if you are not complaining about build diversity

And if you are aware most builds you are using are tailored for ATs or in other words, organized gameplay where you can rely on your team. And not ranked.

There are plenty builds that are not listed in metabattle that are better for ranked than the ones there.

[lare.5129]

@Khalisto.5780 said:It's ok if you are not complaining about build diversityI can choose pvp any class and biudl what I want. Why I should complaining ?

And if you are aware most builds you are using are tailored for ATs or in other words, organized gameplay where you can rely on your team. And not ranked.for that, about organized gameplay you can rely only wiht yours premade team for trounamets or unranked. Don;t ask it from ranked randoms.

There are plenty builds that are not listed in metabattle that are better for ranked than the ones there.why we shoudl worry if someone don't want think? For me it is ok - I can choose any build.

[Ghos.1326]

It's still amazing to see unskilled players who were carried by their crutch that was their broken build complaining about how powercreep should have not been addressed. Even World of Warcraft, which I've been following recently, just recently came out with some nerfs to prevent the one shot crap that was flying around (most noticeable with marksman hunter and rogue). Just git gud 4Head

[Ghos.1326]

@TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:I'm on 7 yrs now man lolAre you drunk? He writes about 2012-2014 days when traits were still giving stats and you could invest max 70 points between all 5 trait lines.These 10k+ were rare but could happen in core days, but damage was like doubled after HoT and PoF release.He's talking about apples and you bring your banyanyas on the table.

BANYANYA, I LOVE BANYANYAS!Sorry, had to do it, love the reference =D

[Lucentfir.7430]

@Ghos.1326 said:It's still amazing to see unskilled players who were carried by their crutch that was their broken build complaining about how powercreep should have not been addressed. Even World of Warcraft, which I've been following recently, just recently came out with some nerfs to prevent the one shot kitten that was flying around (most noticeable with marksman hunter and rogue). Just git gud 4Head

You can call them unskilled but on the other side of the coin it looks like someone that doesn't know how to handle or fight strong builds to learn and adapt, it's basically too spicy for some people that can only ever handle mayo. Not to say there wasn't broken builds before (Clone death mesmer from core, Prime mirage) Let me give you some insight, since I've been playing WoW. Those nerfs did nothing but shave an extra second off before you die to those classes, they also removed baseline pvp talent choice to remove stun (medallion/adaption) and stuck them on trinkets in this expansion. Sub rogue can still delete someone in 2 to 3 seconds(not including the ability to stun someone for 10s lol), it was just before they were doing with with the Kyrian covenant skill(expansion skill). Meanwhile demon hunters are flying under the radar since one of their covenant abilities can almost one shot, and Shadow Priests are also busted.

[Leonidrex.5649]

@Ghos.1326 said:It's still amazing to see unskilled players who were carried by their crutch that was their broken build complaining about how powercreep should have not been addressed. Even World of Warcraft, which I've been following recently, just recently came out with some nerfs to prevent the one shot kitten that was flying around (most noticeable with marksman hunter and rogue). Just git gud 4Head

and what exactly changed? if you want brainless build you still have heal warrior, any necro build, or burn guard.all 3 can easy peasy be pushed to high plat by morons, unlike now, before feb proper DPS builds could kill those bunkers if they didnt try.Now I can legit free cast on necro as glass mesmer and it takes me over a minute to kill them due to all the fucking HP they have, or I can fight rev, ARC dps says I did fucking 25k dmg to him and he is sitting and 80% hpEvery day Im starting to believe that lich form is good for the game, to kill all the tanky shit

[Ghos.1326]

@Lucentfir.7430 said:

@Ghos.1326 said:It's still amazing to see unskilled players who were carried by their crutch that was their broken build complaining about how powercreep should have not been addressed. Even World of Warcraft, which I've been following recently, just recently came out with some nerfs to prevent the one shot kitten that was flying around (most noticeable with marksman hunter and rogue). Just git gud 4Head

You can call them unskilled but on the other side of the coin it looks like someone that doesn't know how to handle or fight strong builds to learn and adapt, it's basically too spicy for some people that can only ever handle mayo. Not to say there wasn't broken builds before (Clone death mesmer from core, Prime mirage) Let me give you some insight, since I've been playing WoW. Those nerfs did nothing but shave an extra second off before you die to those classes, they also removed baseline pvp talent choice to remove stun (medallion/adaption) and stuck them on trinkets in this expansion. Sub rogue can still delete someone in 2 to 3 seconds(not including the ability to stun someone for 10s lol), it was just before they were doing with with the Kyrian covenant skill(expansion skill). Meanwhile demon hunters are flying under the radar since one of their covenant abilities can almost one shot, and Shadow Priests are also busted.

My whole point is, even WoW is working on cutting powercreep from their game, since it is a problem. And they're doing it in a timely manner.GW2's first step in cutting powercreep was a big step in the right direction with the Feb 25th patch. While there are things that were missed, it was still a big step in the right direction. Where gw2 fails currently is their timely manner of their balance passes, even the small ones.As well:Hunter(With realm restarts) Aimed Shot no longer deals 10% increased damage in PvP situations.(With realm restarts) Double Tap's extra Aimed Shot deals 50% reduced damage in PvP situations.

This, as an example, is a pretty big deal. It's a good nerf, seeing that Hunters could literally one shot tanks with 38k hp. That's definitely not just something small. 50% damage reduction on a specific talent is huge, but necessary. I agree that there are still some things in WoW as well that still need looking into, but I expect them to move in a timely manner to address those issues.GW2 should follow suit. We don't have to have huge balance passes all the time, but the bigger ones should take a little longer, while the smaller ones should take a shorter time frame than 2 months to implement.As well, if ONLY nerfing things is the way to go to cut powercreep, then so be it. And the only ones who are angry at the nerfs are those who are horrible at the game. (basically I'm agreeing and disagreeing with you at the same time, if that makes sense)

[Obtena.7952]

Wow ... people still think Anet is trying to increase build diversity with balancing? People need to pay closer attention to the history of this game. I mean ... I GUESS it's easy to miss the last 8 years ... :trollface:

[Kuma.1503]

@Ghos.1326 said:

@Lucentfir.7430 said:

@Ghos.1326 said:It's still amazing to see unskilled players who were carried by their crutch that was their broken build complaining about how powercreep should have not been addressed. Even World of Warcraft, which I've been following recently, just recently came out with some nerfs to prevent the one shot kitten that was flying around (most noticeable with marksman hunter and rogue). Just git gud 4Head

You can call them unskilled but on the other side of the coin it looks like someone that doesn't know how to handle or fight strong builds to learn and adapt, it's basically too spicy for some people that can only ever handle mayo. Not to say there wasn't broken builds before (Clone death mesmer from core, Prime mirage) Let me give you some insight, since I've been playing WoW. Those nerfs did nothing but shave an extra second off before you die to those classes, they also removed baseline pvp talent choice to remove stun (medallion/adaption) and stuck them on trinkets in this expansion. Sub rogue can still delete someone in 2 to 3 seconds(not including the ability to stun someone for 10s lol), it was just before they were doing with with the Kyrian covenant skill(expansion skill). Meanwhile demon hunters are flying under the radar since one of their covenant abilities can almost one shot, and Shadow Priests are also busted.

My whole point is, even WoW is working on cutting powercreep from their game, since it is a problem. And they're doing it in a timely manner.GW2's first step in cutting powercreep was a big step in the right direction with the Feb 25th patch. While there are things that were missed, it was still a big step in the right direction. Where gw2 fails currently is their timely manner of their balance passes, even the small ones.As well:Hunter(With realm restarts) Aimed Shot no longer deals 10% increased damage in PvP situations.(With realm restarts) Double Tap's extra Aimed Shot deals 50% reduced damage in PvP situations.

This, as an example, is a pretty big deal. It's a good nerf, seeing that Hunters could literally one shot tanks with 38k hp. That's definitely not just something small. 50% damage reduction on a specific talent is huge, but necessary. I agree that there are still some things in WoW as well that still need looking into, but I expect them to move in a timely manner to address those issues.GW2 should follow suit. We don't have to have huge balance passes all the time, but the bigger ones should take a little longer, while the smaller ones should take a shorter time frame than 2 months to implement.As well, if ONLY nerfing things is the way to go to cut powercreep, then so be it. And the only ones who are angry at the nerfs are those who are horrible at the game. (basically I'm agreeing and disagreeing with you at the same time, if that makes sense)

Funny thing you mention WoW.

When they first started cutting power creep, the PvP community was estatic. I looked at old forum posts that came after Blizzard made that announcement. Nothing but posititive energy.

And then Blizzard began taking everything away. It wasn't just a light pruning the way they explained it, Blizzard gutted every. single. spec, and made them all boring and unfun to play.

Remember Legion? One of the biggest complaints of that expansion was that class design was bad. Blizzard used artifact weapons as a crutch to bring some of that power back, but they were temporary, and as soon as Blizzard took them away in the next expansion, the gaping holes in every class became apparent.

Next was BfA, and what was the number one complaint about the expansion? Classes were boring. Blizzard promised another temporary system that would bring back some of that power, but the new system, Azerite, was an inferior Artifact weapon in every way. It didn't bring back enough power to make classes interesting...

And then there was a mass exodus from the game. It was around this point that I began playing GW2, and boy... the difference was night and day. Every class in Guild Wars was fun, fleshed out. You had so many ways to customize your build, and you didn't need some external system to make your class feel somewhat functional, but I digress, back to WoW...

Fast forward to Shadowlands, and complaints reached a point where even Ion Hazziwhatshisface, in all of his stubbornness finally echoed what the community had been saying for an entire expansion "Your class is the lens from which you view the game. If your class is dull, then everything else becomes dull".

Powerdip was the number one thing plaguing WoW. People eventually woke up; there were numerous threads with massive support with the hashtag #ReturntoMoP.

Return to when everything was powercrept. When people viewed those days in hindsight, they realized everything was fun, classes had depth, there were so many ways a skilled player on a class could outperform a lesser skilled player. We had numerous polls about which expansion had the best class design, and in every one, MoP won by a landslide.

PvPers thought back to the days when good players could 1vX by masterfully utilizing the tools their class had to offer. Compare to BfA/Legion where you could basically run into PvP doing your PvE rotation (which was 5 steps at most for most classes) and you could kill a veteran with little difficulty. 1vX became a thing of the past in most cases. You just couldn't express your skill in many ways.

Now here we are in shadowlands, and what was then number one thing people praised Blizzard about?Blizzard un-pruned every class. We got back some of the stuff they took away in the name of reducing power creep. Mind you, they could have gone harder. Mistweaver, as an example, should be able to interupt with Spearhand strike. It tends to lag behind other healers in the utility department. Fire mage should really get Pheonix Flames as a baseline part of their kit, but it's a step forward.

Conclusion: WoW is what made me realize the damage that power dip can do to a game. It's the last thing I'd use as an example to promote game-wide nerfs.

[Axl.8924]

@"Shao.7236" said:Metabattle and relative sites are a bad influence, there is a lot of builds to have and in a viable state.

They simply don't care to show anything but meta because all they care about is the meta. It's in their terms, you'll never find many builds on their site that would indicate "build diversity" to keep their site "clean".

The diversity is something you can see by doing it yourself and watching players that care to see how more things can be achieved, it's been way more noticeable since the Feb patch that a lot of stuff began to be playable but also fun.

Reason is because it helps to know what kind of is useful and not. Its hard to "GIT GUD" without a video and guide, because there are so many perks and so many which are simply non viable for pvp and the game doesn't really explain that well how to pvp well, so you get into a match and you end up getting ganked.

there is a reason why i've seen advice on forum to watch specific thief players play, and thats how i got to know some of how it played, and dying and not knowing what you did wrong is frustrating.

I think world of warcraft is a bit more straight forward in pvp and less confusing for newbies.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

@Ghos.1326 said:

@Lucentfir.7430 said:

@Ghos.1326 said:It's still amazing to see unskilled players who were carried by their crutch that was their broken build complaining about how powercreep should have not been addressed. Even World of Warcraft, which I've been following recently, just recently came out with some nerfs to prevent the one shot kitten that was flying around (most noticeable with marksman hunter and rogue). Just git gud 4Head

You can call them unskilled but on the other side of the coin it looks like someone that doesn't know how to handle or fight strong builds to learn and adapt, it's basically too spicy for some people that can only ever handle mayo. Not to say there wasn't broken builds before (Clone death mesmer from core, Prime mirage) Let me give you some insight, since I've been playing WoW. Those nerfs did nothing but shave an extra second off before you die to those classes, they also removed baseline pvp talent choice to remove stun (medallion/adaption) and stuck them on trinkets in this expansion. Sub rogue can still delete someone in 2 to 3 seconds(not including the ability to stun someone for 10s lol), it was just before they were doing with with the Kyrian covenant skill(expansion skill). Meanwhile demon hunters are flying under the radar since one of their covenant abilities can almost one shot, and Shadow Priests are also busted.

My whole point is, even WoW is working on cutting powercreep from their game, since it is a problem. And they're doing it in a timely manner.GW2's first step in cutting powercreep was a big step in the right direction with the Feb 25th patch. While there are things that were missed, it was still a big step in the right direction. Where gw2 fails currently is their timely manner of their balance passes, even the small ones.As well:Hunter(With realm restarts) Aimed Shot no longer deals 10% increased damage in PvP situations.(With realm restarts) Double Tap's extra Aimed Shot deals 50% reduced damage in PvP situations.

This, as an example, is a pretty big deal. It's a good nerf, seeing that Hunters could literally one shot tanks with 38k hp. That's definitely not just something small. 50% damage reduction on a specific talent is huge, but necessary. I agree that there are still some things in WoW as well that still need looking into, but I expect them to move in a timely manner to address those issues.GW2 should follow suit. We don't have to have huge balance passes all the time, but the bigger ones should take a little longer, while the smaller ones should take a shorter time frame than 2 months to implement.As well, if ONLY nerfing things is the way to go to cut powercreep, then so be it. And the only ones who are angry at the nerfs are those who are horrible at the game. (basically I'm agreeing and disagreeing with you at the same time, if that makes sense)

100^ wow defenitly has far more frequent and impactful balancing than gw2 has, even when gw2 had somewhat frequent changes, at least for them.I've been playing wow for last 4 months and gw2 very little but one thing I love gw2 for and why I'm probably gonna return and unsub from wow is that in gw2 u dont have to commit to hrs on hrs farming dungeon and pve content weekly to stay competitive in gw2. Wow is a great mmo but its designed for players who have a lot of gaming time every week, gw2 u can pop in for a hr here and there and play the content u enjoy (pvp) and still be competitive in the pvp modes. That one design is one of the things that sets gw2 apart from other mmo's, it respects ur time.

[scorekeeper.6524]

I think you need to play a game like Return of Reckoning, a game that is nearly all PvP focused, has 32 classes, and yet build diversity is at an all time low right now.

Build diversity is always possible in PvP modes. It takes people to leave the “meta” builds and try new things in order for this to be seen. But, naturally people are more prone to copy the FotM builds due to laziness. So the avant-garde players who are trying new things inevitably popularized off meta builds that soon become meta. What’s worse is we have a player base that vilifies players for not conforming to the meta.

[Khalisto.5780]

Thare are around 40 builds in metabattle.

But most of them are not spammable, which seems to be what you seek

When i say spammable, i mean a build you can play every game without being hard countered

I play ele most time, FA is a good build, but it is not spammable, 2 teleporting classes in the other team makes it borderline impossible to play. But sometimes it fits better in a game than a spammable build. Cuz their team has no counters to me i fill i needed role plus counter 2+ players

But it took time to learn my matchups, and learn the build ans ppl just want to insta win and copy paste the higher rated build from their class and spam it like there were no other builds.

About competitive scene, yes only the most efficient builds will be played and it's a very small portion of all viable builds. But any game works like this, dota 2 has over 120 heroes, but 80% of the pick/bans in pro scene resolve around 20 heroes if it's that many. Teams play other heroes cuz the draft system forces them to, but we don't have something like that in gw2 so most teams will play exactly the same comps

[Stand The Wall.6987]

the biggest boost to build diversity would be to have more viable game modes. for some reason a lot of pvp'ers don't want that tho, so i can't say i feel sorry for anyone like this.