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Modern Tyrian Warfare


Fipmip.7219

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In this fantasy game, we have rifles, pistols, machine guns, tanks, supertanks, submarines, helicopters, artillery, airships, radio communications and electronic warfare, sentient robots, and (admittedly magical) lasers. To be quite honest, I dont really mind all that. In my mind, the innate magical defenses of battlefield participants allow them to close the gap and engage in good old fashioned medieval combat in order to take and occupy ground.

What I do mind, however, are the battlefields in which we see large scale action take place. Usually, we find ourselves in combat with technologically inferior dragon minions, that usually rely on spells and tooth and claw to fight. Such battles, probably most notably against mordremoth, are fought in a sort of guerilla, skirmishing style, using ad-hoc strategies and convenient plot devices. This is a trend that can also be seen against zhaitan and kralkatorrik, in which dragon forces are more or less simply left to wander around zones they control, as opposing forces are just allowed to move around inside enemy territory. No front line exists, no operation is too daring.

I mention all this because it conveniently explains the environment in which we fight - that is to say, any environment will do. since things move so quickly, and operations are so dynamic, we never find ourselves in a battle that grinds into an ongoing thing. however, we now find ourselves against a foe with roughly equal footing. the dominion, and subsequently the frost legion, presumably have the means and intelligence to meet the pact toe to toe, blow for blow, and bog them down into a real fight. It then stands to reason with me, that any drawn-out operation involving the aforementioned tools of war, along with the destructive spells of a fantasy setting, would quickly transform any jungle, forest, desert, tundra, grassland, beachhead or mountain into a blasted, muddy hellscape resembling a typical frontline from the 1940s. And this is a setting that I would wholeheartedly welcome. We have seen it occur in a very limited fashion around lighthouse point and port cascadia, but I'd like to see at least one map dedicated to its execution in its entirety. I believe one of the lead designers has mentioned wanting more maps resembling a sort of PvE version of WvW, and this sort of theater would fit in very well with the upcoming story and proposed design in the future, with machines of war duking it out and simultaneous objectives spread up and down the line.

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I'm not a fan of mixing modes.Bringing WvW into PvE is generally a bad idea and won't fix the already broken WvW mode.However I do agree, modernization of fantasy warfare has gone too far and I would rather see myself drive a Trojan Horse than a filthy Tank.Pistols and Rifles are okay I guess but cars as mobs is really overkill.As long as they don't bring in sPvP in PVE I'm okay with that.Also, I don't like the fact that the Ice Brood Saga is mixing 2 different genres.The first 2 episodes being an introduction to real fantasy content that is much more of the likes of the playerbase,.The Iron Legion Concert, Parachutes and car mobs are just unrelated to Jormag and Charr culture doesn't make sense to be in a mix like this.Maybe Asura, but that's it.I think that they have rushed the Ice Brood Saga and that the development team is not of the same quality than what it used to be.

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@"Fipmip.7219" said:i think you might have missed the point of this post, I dont really mind the modernization, I just think that the theme of trench battling in current tyrian warfare should be taken further.

Yes maybe the theme of "trench battling" is a good concept but I think that it should be or should have been in a more medieval approach.

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I would hazard to guess that true trench warfare might not fit how the Charr fight, whether its with swords and fire magic or if its with firearms and steampunk/diesel-punk/whatever style tanks and artillery. I dunno, to be honest I haven't been paying very close attention to that particular map and that part of the story, certain parts rubbed me the wrong way, but I'll refrain from beating a dead horse...for now.

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i try imagine that explosive power of most 'advanced' stuff on tyria are still not enough.Also theres lot of magical implicit stuff too, to this could explain tecnologically less advanced enemies still be resistant to weapons.

something I find consistent in the lore is a matter of energy, the bigger weapons seem to require a lot of energy, and the Tyrians apparently have not developed very efficient energy techniques yet. So basically whenever there are "big cannons" there is an event where players need to get them to work.

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Though it’s not quite the same Harathi Hinterlands has that vibe you’re seeking somewhat. It’s not gonna satisfy your modern warfare itch and it’s content from launch, but a lot of the environment has been destroyed from the on going war with the centaurs.

As I understand the drizzlewood situation the fighting hasn’t been there for an incredibly long time, so perhaps less opportunity for a lot of natural devastation. Not exactly sure how long the centaurs have been messing up the wilderness in HH, but they were the main antagonist faction for humans at the start of the game so probably a much longer.

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@"ugrakarma.9416" said:i try imagine that explosive power of most 'advanced' stuff on tyria are still not enough.Also theres lot of magical implicit stuff too, to this could explain tecnologically less advanced enemies still be resistant to weapons.

something I find consistent in the lore is a matter of energy, the bigger weapons seem to require a lot of energy, and the Tyrians apparently have not developed very efficient energy techniques yet. So basically whenever there are "big cannons" there is an event where players need to get them to work.

That's pretty much my thinking. If you look at some of the technology floating around Tyria, armoured warriors charging into melee should have been obsolete decades ago, and probably would be if steel armour was what they had... but based on the requisitions, it's typical for frontline Pact troops (for example) to have mithril armour and weapons. That's probably a high enough grade of armour to remain relevant in the face of even postindustrial technology. It also helps that even relatively mundane warriors can cross distances pretty quickly in the Guild Wars universe.

Magic is also a significant equaliser. Guns become less of an advantage if your enemy is able to toss fireballs, after all. It's actually a concept I've come across in the Heroes of Battle supplement for D&D: once you get into sufficiently high fantasy, modern combat tactics start making more sense than medieval approaches to battle because fighting in large formations is just asking to be blown up by a fireball or some other AoE effect. It's just that magic and fantastical warbeasts take the place of technological weapons and vehicles. Charr use actual technology to compensate for being relatively weak in the magic field (even after reabsorbing the Flame Legion, the Flame Legion's magic has become a little overly specialised...), but consider that human armies in Tyria are likely to have a wide range of spellcasters and may also have some sort of construct or war beast such as Watchknights or Jade Constructs.

WvW battles, interestingly, tend to revert back into formation fighting (or at least clumping), but that's to take advantage of boons, healing, and protective effects that can offset the increased damage from clumping, which is a factor that doesn't really exist in real-world modern warfare.

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@draxynnic.3719 said:

@"ugrakarma.9416" said:i try imagine that explosive power of most 'advanced' stuff on tyria are still not enough.Also theres lot of magical implicit stuff too, to this could explain tecnologically less advanced enemies still be resistant to weapons.

something I find consistent in the lore is a matter of energy, the bigger weapons seem to require a lot of energy, and the Tyrians apparently have not developed very efficient energy techniques yet. So basically whenever there are "big cannons" there is an event where players need to get them to work.

That's pretty much my thinking. If you look at some of the technology floating around Tyria, armoured warriors charging into melee should have been obsolete decades ago, and probably would be if steel armour was what they had... but based on the requisitions, it's typical for frontline Pact troops (for example) to have mithril armour and weapons. That's probably a high enough grade of armour to remain relevant in the face of even postindustrial technology. It also helps that even relatively mundane warriors can cross distances pretty quickly in the
Guild Wars
universe.

Magic is also a significant equaliser. Guns become less of an advantage if your enemy is able to toss fireballs, after all. It's actually a concept I've come across in the
Heroes of Battle
supplement for D&D: once you get into sufficiently high fantasy, modern combat tactics start making more sense than medieval approaches to battle because fighting in large formations is just asking to be blown up by a fireball or some other AoE effect. It's just that magic and fantastical warbeasts take the place of technological weapons and vehicles. Charr use actual technology to compensate for being relatively weak in the magic field (even after reabsorbing the Flame Legion, the Flame Legion's magic has become a little overly specialised...), but consider that human armies in Tyria are likely to have a wide range of spellcasters and may also have some sort of construct or war beast such as Watchknights or Jade Constructs.

WvW battles, interestingly, tend to revert back into formation fighting (or at least clumping), but that's to take advantage of boons, healing, and protective effects that can offset the increased damage from clumping, which is a factor that doesn't really exist in real-world modern warfare.

don't forget how they utilize their technology and magic in forms of protection.

In case of projectile protection, Magic and certain technology can create protection to make them immune to projectile attacks thus forcing them into melee to bypass those protections. It will be pointless to unload a entire magazine of a gun if a person is immune to it due to the protection created by magic or technology.

Not to mention implimentation of cybernetics or exo-enhancement gears that can be created such as how Engineers can modify themselves with their tech to better perform on the battlefield. Magic itself can also provide the same effects which makes gap closing more easily done than someone who can only run in normal human speed. This adds on to the difficulty of attacking from range since if a person with enhanced speed rush a person before they can even point their gun at them, then they may not make it in time and get sliced.

Teleportation magic is also a huge game changer since it allows people to appear anywhere for even proper ambush.

Illusion magic can make people waste ammunition or overheat any tech weapons on decoys thus leaving them vulnerable if they don't have a form of melee combat method. Illusion magic is advanced enough that it can even trick technology sometimes if the caster is very skilled.

If anything out of how technology and strategies advance in GW world, it is a combination of Magic and Technology due to how both sides have means to counter each other to a point both magic and technology remain equally relevant. This leads to dependency on melee weapons still due to the counters towards range weapons that force people into depending on melee weapons.

Not to mention the resources they have to create metals that are far stronger than the stuff we can create in our world.

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@EdwinLi.1284 said:If anything out of how technology and strategies advance in GW world, it is a combination of Magic and Technology due to how both sides have means to counter each other to a point both magic and technology remain equally relevent. This leads to dependency on melee weapons still due to the counters towards range weapons that force people into depending on melee weapons.

Nowadays it is convenient for the narrative, because long-distance artillery wars are tedious, it happens a lot in small countries, they spend weeks setting fire to each other, but due to the little training of the infantry / armored forces, they don't make much progress.

In that respect, the development on DrizzleWood Coast resembles some real wars like the Korean War. The recommended tactic to use against the enemy's superior artillery is to proceed to melee combat. That's what we do at events where we advance to WolfBridge and destroy Dominion's heavy artillery. The authors seem to have studied well, we use infiltration and other tactics used in real life.

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@EdwinLi.1284 said:

@"ugrakarma.9416" said:i try imagine that explosive power of most 'advanced' stuff on tyria are still not enough.Also theres lot of magical implicit stuff too, to this could explain tecnologically less advanced enemies still be resistant to weapons.

something I find consistent in the lore is a matter of energy, the bigger weapons seem to require a lot of energy, and the Tyrians apparently have not developed very efficient energy techniques yet. So basically whenever there are "big cannons" there is an event where players need to get them to work.

That's pretty much my thinking. If you look at some of the technology floating around Tyria, armoured warriors charging into melee should have been obsolete decades ago, and probably would be if steel armour was what they had... but based on the requisitions, it's typical for frontline Pact troops (for example) to have mithril armour and weapons. That's probably a high enough grade of armour to remain relevant in the face of even postindustrial technology. It also helps that even relatively mundane warriors can cross distances pretty quickly in the
Guild Wars
universe.

Magic is also a significant equaliser. Guns become less of an advantage if your enemy is able to toss fireballs, after all. It's actually a concept I've come across in the
Heroes of Battle
supplement for D&D: once you get into sufficiently high fantasy, modern combat tactics start making more sense than medieval approaches to battle because fighting in large formations is just asking to be blown up by a fireball or some other AoE effect. It's just that magic and fantastical warbeasts take the place of technological weapons and vehicles. Charr use actual technology to compensate for being relatively weak in the magic field (even after reabsorbing the Flame Legion, the Flame Legion's magic has become a little overly specialised...), but consider that human armies in Tyria are likely to have a wide range of spellcasters and may also have some sort of construct or war beast such as Watchknights or Jade Constructs.

WvW battles, interestingly, tend to revert back into formation fighting (or at least clumping), but that's to take advantage of boons, healing, and protective effects that can offset the increased damage from clumping, which is a factor that doesn't really exist in real-world modern warfare.

don't forget how they utilize their technology and magic in forms of protection.

In case of projectile protection, Magic and certain technology can create protection to make them immune to projectile attacks thus forcing them into melee to bypass those protections. It will be pointless to unload a entire magazine of a gun if a person is immune to it due to the protection created by magic or technology.

Not to mention implimentation of cybernetics or exo-enhancement gears that can be created such as how Engineers can modify themselves with their tech to better perform on the battlefield. Magic itself can also provide the same effects which makes gap closing more easily done than someone who can only run in normal human speed. This adds on to the difficulty of attacking from range since if a person with enhanced speed rush a person before they can even point their gun at them, then they may not make it in time and get sliced.

Teleportation magic is also a huge game changer since it allows people to appear anywhere for even proper ambush.

Illusion magic can make people waste ammunition or overheat any tech weapons on decoys thus leaving them vulnerable if they don't have a form of melee combat method. Illusion magic is advanced enough that it can even trick technology sometimes if the caster is very skilled.

If anything out of how technology and strategies advance in GW world, it is a combination of Magic and Technology due to how both sides have means to counter each other to a point both magic and technology remain equally relevant. This leads to dependency on melee weapons still due to the counters towards range weapons that force people into depending on melee weapons.

Not to mention the resources they have to create metals that are far stronger than the stuff we can create in our world.

Yeah, I was meaning to comment on a lot of that, but it was already pretty late local and it slipped my mind (apart from the WvW reference, where I was definitely thinking of things like projectile-blocking when I said "protective effects"). It's an area where Tyrian capabilities actually outstrip real-world militaries, who's only defence against projectiles is generally taking cover or shooting them down, and not everything can be shot down. Being able to throw up things like reflect bubbles is going to really change the calculus there. You can see it in science fiction settings that have some sort of shielding technology pushing melee combat back to the forefront (the slow knife penetrates the shield...)

And yeah, improved materials is big. I don't think every soldier is going to have what the Commander has, but basic mithril armour is about a silver a piece. Now, MMO economics are a bit weird, but it does seem plausible that a Tyrian army would be able to make about as much use of mithril armour as a medieval army could make use of iron or low-grade steel armour. A conservative estimate of mithril is that it's similar to titanium, but ingame it's treated as being as big a step above steel as steel is from bronze. For all we have modern materials today, I don't think there is anything that represents such a big step up - there are still a lot of applications where steel is considered the best material. Not the most economic material that will do the job - the best. The various other materials that we've come up with are certainly superior in many applications, but they also have downsides compared to steel that mean that there are cases where high-grade steel is still the best material we have for the job.

This combination presents a scenario where, similar to medieval times before the introduction of gunpowder weapons, armour generally beats most weapons, allowing melee soldiers to get in close. It probably also helps that melee weapons also benefit from the improved materials technology. Granted, you could also make a gun out of mithril, but making a gun out of mithril probably doesn't improve it as much as doing so with armour or a melee weapon.

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@draxynnic.3719 said:This combination presents a scenario where, similar to medieval times before the introduction of gunpowder weapons, armour generally beats most weapons, allowing melee soldiers to get in close. It probably also helps that melee weapons also benefit from the improved materials technology. Granted, you could also make a gun out of mithril, but making a gun out of mithril probably doesn't improve it as much as doing so with armour or a melee weapon.

Not the gun itself, of course, but perhaps mithril ammo?

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@The Greyhawk.9107 said:

@draxynnic.3719 said:This combination presents a scenario where, similar to medieval times before the introduction of gunpowder weapons, armour generally beats most weapons, allowing melee soldiers to get in close. It probably also helps that melee weapons also benefit from the improved materials technology. Granted, you could also make a gun out of mithril, but making a gun out of mithril
probably
doesn't improve it as much as doing so with armour or a melee weapon.

Not the gun itself, of course, but perhaps mithril ammo?

I'm not sure that making a bullet out of a metal that makes for better weapons and armour would help that much. Having a harder and denser penetrator helps, of course, but not as much as improving the design of the projectile (something that applies more to larger shells than regular bullets) or just applying more kinetic energy (which is something where having a stronger barrel actually can help... but not as much as having a better material increases the strength of armour). If they're firing out 19th century bullet designs, I'm not sure that advanced materials will actually help much.

Particularly since mithril is traditionally a metal that's strong and light. For armour, this is great: you can afford to make it thicker without overly weighing down the wearer. For melee weapons, you can get the weight and momentum back by making it bigger (which actually explains a lot when you look at the design of some of the weapons). For armour-piercing bullets, though, you want density. Darksteel (which is apparently made either from platinum or a metal that is commonly found in the same deposits, such as iridium, so it could be presumed to have a high density) would probably be more suited for use as projectiles. Orichalcum is harder to judge, but is probably rare enough that most soldiers won't be using it as ammunition anyway.

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Yeah I agree magic protection is what makes melee combat more viable, perhaps not as a stronger alternative, since there's not much lorewise to suggest melee being superior except outside of game mechanics, but as simple preference based on what role is needed. Being able to close the gap over large amounts of terrain more easily is useful as a way of occupying ground and ending battles faster. however, trenches have appeared, with almorra using them against the shatterer and charr using them against eachother, so we can at least point to evidence of their value. It seems that not all types of magic are as ubiquitous and readily available for the rank and file, and simple earth serves as a cheaper and more sustainable barrier than magic shields.

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@Fipmip.7219 said:Yeah I agree magic protection is what makes melee combat more viable, perhaps not as a stronger alternative, since there's not much lorewise to suggest melee being superior except outside of game mechanics, but as simple preference based on what role is needed. Being able to close the gap over large amounts of terrain more easily is useful as a way of occupying ground and ending battles faster. however, trenches have appeared, with almorra using them against the shatterer and charr using them against eachother, so we can at least point to evidence of their value. It seems that not all types of magic are as ubiquitous and readily available for the rank and file, and simple earth serves as a cheaper and more sustainable barrier than magic shields.

That's probably a reasonably accurate view when it comes to magic forcefields. We generally don't see them being maintained for long, they're more something that gets put up to protect against a specific threat. The Divinity's Reach city dome was up for a while, but that's part of the defences of a city which also has a pretty ridiculous set of outer walls.

The fields we can produce are fairly short-term, and based on the Sea of Sorrows novel, keeping up a defensive field long-term, particularly when the field is actually under attack, requires maintenance on the part of the caster(s) that can exhaust or even kill them. So regular fortifications and earthworks are still useful - magical force fields are more of a gap-filler for when conventional fortifications are either impractical or need to be reinforced in a hurry.

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We also have to consider the types of enemies they fight which plenty of them cannot be put down with a single bullet due to their biology. Dragon Minions are the most stubbern to kill since most of the time the only way to guarantee they stay down is to chop or blow them up into pieces once they reach a level of corruption where they body is physically changed by the Dragon's magic.

not to mention specific species have much stronger hides than others that makes them tougher for bullets to penetrate their skin thus forcing people into using melee brute strength to slice through that tough hide where bullets fail to do so due to the strength of the bullet is based on material and the gun's ability and method of firing that bullet.

We do have Energy based Guns now thanks to events of the Zhaitan Arc increasing the supply and demand for them thanks to the Pact but certain creatures have certain resistance to the Energy based bullets that these guns fire.

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Guns are vented bombs. Make the gun itself stronger and it can use more powerful or simply more propellant. A .44 magnum is bigger than a .22 for this very reason. The material of the projectile is important, but the strength of the gun is more important. The strongest projectile possible becomes even stronger with a bigger explosion behind it.

Presumably, whatever magic defenses we could give to melee, ranged can use as well. It is very hard for range not to have the advantage. The Tyrian magic system is too hand wavy to make strong predictions, but I think only the strongest users of melee magic would be relevant in Tyrian large scale warfare. It looks as though magic users channel their magical ability through their gear. I don't see why magic users couldn't learn to do the same with a tank.

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First obstacle to channel magic through a tank would probably be mass, the second might be comparative lack of spell casters among the charr. Its reasonable to assume that channeling magic through a sword isn't going to be the same as a tank, might require more than one magic user in most cases which can be an issue as the things seem to be single-seaters for the most part. The second is pretty self explanatory, even with some Flame Legion rejoining the High Legions its questionable if this can be done en mass. Obviously Pact tanks would be a different story but we're still talking about the Legions, correct?

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@The Greyhawk.9107 said:First obstacle to channel magic through a tank would probably be mass, the second might be comparative lack of spell casters among the charr. Its reasonable to assume that channeling magic through a sword isn't going to be the same as a tank, might require more than one magic user in most cases which can be an issue as the things seem to be single-seaters for the most part. The second is pretty self explanatory, even with some Flame Legion rejoining the High Legions its questionable if this can be done en mass. Obviously Pact tanks would be a different story but we're still talking about the Legions, correct?

It is more of a issue with a method to maintain the magical protection. Without a constant source for supply of magical energy to maintain the protection, it will only remain within a certain time limit.

However, this has been resolved in GW2 already being Magic Cores being used for technology so golems and tanks can maintain Magical protection to remove the need for a magic user to constantly maintain it instead.

Yet that knowledge does not come without knowledge on how to counter it with technology and magic already creating weapons that can weaken the magical protection or strain it to a point it becomes disabled for a short time thus making the Golem and Tank vulnerable within a certain amount of time.

Of course they have already created a Technology counterpart for that same protection as we seen in Dizzlewood Coast with the Dominion Charr Tanks. However, they also come with a counter being enough EMPs will strain the protection enough to shut it down for a short time.

While Magical and Technology based protections are strong, they have shown to have limits no matter how strong they are. It is already impressive enough they can take such a beating considering the fire power often used is strong enough to literally leave nothing left if military forces used the same amount of fire power that is used in this game to disable a protection on a location.

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@"Psientist.6437" said:Guns are vented bombs. Make the gun itself stronger and it can use more powerful or simply more propellant. A .44 magnum is bigger than a .22 for this very reason. The material of the projectile is important, but the strength of the gun is more important. The strongest projectile possible becomes even stronger with a bigger explosion behind it.

Presumably, whatever magic defenses we could give to melee, ranged can use as well. It is very hard for range not to have the advantage. The Tyrian magic system is too hand wavy to make strong predictions, but I think only the strongest users of melee magic would be relevant in Tyrian large scale warfare. It looks as though magic users channel their magical ability through their gear. I don't see why magic users couldn't learn to do the same with a tank.

Yeah, I did note that the strength of the barrel can certainly help, through the mechanism of allowing for a larger charge behind the projectile. However, in the race between armour and firepower, better materials usually benefit armour more.

When it comes to the effect of magic - however handwavy you think it is, there are certain tendencies we can observe. For instance, almost every profession has some sort of projectile destruction or, worse, reflection field - guardian has several, mesmer has a couple, elementalist has Swirling Winds, necromancer has Corrosive Poison Cloud, scrapper has Defence Field, holosmith has Photon Wall, spellbreaker has Winds of Disenchantment, revenants have Protective Solace, and thieves have their various smoke effects (which technically only make those within impossible to target rather than actually stopping the bullets)... and Seal Area. Abilities that specifically act to keep melee enemies at bay are less common, usually on professions that already have access to some form of projectile hate, and can generally be more easily countered (using Stability, teleports, or some other means of getting past the magical line). So the end result seems to be that magic, on the whole, is more effective at countering ranged projectiles than other attacks, including melee.

Another thing that needs to be considered is that from the Tyrian perspective, guns are more of an equaliser than a revolutionary technology. The most advanced non-magical guns we're seeing are early gatling guns - to someone capable of tossing fireballs, lightning bolts, rapid-fire stone projectiles, or more exotic magical attacks, this isn't actually all that impressive. Most fantasy settings present magic-users as being fairly rare in an effort to not have them revolutionise how wars are fought, but if you look at most human armies that you fight* in Guild Wars... traditional medieval period soldiers such as warriors and archers are certainly the most common, but you're often still looking at about half their number being spellcasters, and I'd consider most Guild Wars spellcasters to be scarier than any gun-armed infantryman before the arrival of true automatic small arms (which... we don't see in GW2). So if melee troops are still viable in the period of Guild Wars 1, I don't see the invention of firearms being something that really changes that. The reason why the three legions adopted technology was that, having outcast the Flame Legion, most of their enemies overmatched them in magic and they needed to close the gap - and the Pact then found ways to combine magic with charr technology.

*I specify 'that you fight' because ArenaNet tends to be economical with forces that you're generally not expecting to fight. The best example is comparing Ascalonian forces in most of GW1 (where you pretty much only see warriors and rangers, apart from the Flaming Sceptre) to what you see from the ghost army in GW2 or the Ascalon Army in the Annihilator mission.

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@The Greyhawk.9107 said:But does Charr tech use things like Magic Cores and the like?

certain charr weapons do due to their fight with ghosts.

Speaking of Tech, I am still wondering why we yet to see the Engineer Profession have the ability to modify their Main Weapon to perform different abilities. So much tech the Engineer Profession carry around that they can dismantle and use to modify their main weapon yet still never use this attribute for Engineers.

Holosmith tech is a nice example of Engineer's skills with modifying a kit into different forms of combat but that is more about programming the right codes into their Holoprojection device so the holograms project and form the the holo weapons and utility skills

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@EdwinLi.1284 said:

@The Greyhawk.9107 said:But does Charr tech use things like Magic Cores and the like?

certain charr weapons do due to their fight with ghosts.

Speaking of Tech, I am still wondering why we yet to see the Engineer Profession have the ability to modify their Main Weapon to perform different abilities. So much tech the Engineer Profession carry around that they can dismantle and use to modify their main weapon yet still never use this attribute for Engineers.

Holosmith tech is a nice example of Engineer's skills with modifying a kit into different forms of combat but that is more about programming the right codes into their Holoprojection device so the holograms project and form the the holo weapons and utility skillsWhat do you mean, they've literally taken a rifle and turned it into a shotgun. Just like that. Screw calibers, bullet physics, or ammunition. This magical rifle-thats-not a-rifle-shotgun shoots whatever the fuck the engineer want it to shoot. Most of the time nothing because it's one of the worst weapon that exist, but you get the idea.

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@Dawdler.8521 said:

@The Greyhawk.9107 said:But does Charr tech use things like Magic Cores and the like?

certain charr weapons do due to their fight with ghosts.

Speaking of Tech, I am still wondering why we yet to see the Engineer Profession have the ability to modify their Main Weapon to perform different abilities. So much tech the Engineer Profession carry around that they can dismantle and use to modify their main weapon yet still never use this attribute for Engineers.

Holosmith tech is a nice example of Engineer's skills with modifying a kit into different forms of combat but that is more about programming the right codes into their Holoprojection device so the holograms project and form the the holo weapons and utility skillsWhat do you mean, they've literally taken a rifle and turned it into a shotgun. Just like that. Screw calibers, bullet physics, or ammunition. This magical rifle-thats-not a-rifle-shotgun shoots whatever the kitten the engineer want it to shoot. Most of the time nothing because it's one of the worst weapon that exist, but you get the idea.

I am talking about the ability to change the 5 Main Weapon skills into new skills based on their tech used to modify it. As of now the Main Weapons have a set of skills that can never be changed. The true Engineer Profession, lore wise, would have changed those 5 weapon skills into new skills and if they wanted, keep some of those weapon skills to match or work with the new weapon skills being used after modifying their Main Weapon.

basically allowing the Engineer to have 2 or 3 different sets of Main weapon skills per Main Weapon so instead of switching our the Main Weapon for a different weapon like other jobs or switching it out for a kit instead, they would just switch out specific Main Weapon skills for a different Main Weapon skill to mix and match their Main Weapon Skills into the prefered weapon skill set they want.

For example, let us use the SCAR Rifle skill set and Engineer's Rifle skill set if they would allow Engineer's to customize their Main Weapon skill set.

they can switch out the Rifle 1 skill between Shrapnel Blast for a melee range combat skill or keep Hip Shot for range combat.

Rifle Skill 2 can have a choice between Netshot for range cripple skill or Spray and Pray for a more offensive close range attack.

Rifle SKill 3 can have a choice between Blunderbuss (Raw Damage) or Rusty Shrapnel (Condition Damage).

Rifle Skill 4 can have a choice between Overcharge Shot for raw damage to pushing enemies away or Charring Barrier for close range shield from projectiles and close range direct or condition damage attack. There can be a more Condition based Overcharge shot called Overheat Shot that focus more on applying conditions for range.

Rifle Skill 5 can be between Jump Shot for raw damage or Explosive Leap less damage but acts as a stunbreaker.

This will provide Engineer a choice on how they want to design their Main Weapon Rifle skills to be forcused on Range, Melee, Direct Damage, or Condition Damage.

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I the Rule of Wonder applies here, and it all comes down to how well it's implemented.

I'm not sure if that rule actually exists, mind you! I surmise that it does. There are rules of Cool and Fun. If it does not, use TVTropes or a similar analogue and fashion your own supposition as to how a Rule of Wonder would work.

The point is? Wonder is the dominating force.

This is an extremely vertical tank with a lion face. How does it stay upright? Dunno! It doesn't matter, really, as the rules of another reality need not match our own. So long as internal consistency is on point, anything can and will be possible because that's just more compelling to the kinds of people who enjoy these settings. In fact, at one point there was no "Fantasy" genre, there was only "Science-Fiction." The Tolkienesque perspective of separation came later.

I know Tolkien isn't to blame for this directly as he didn't create this separation; He did, however, popularise it. Earlier settings would play around with the concepts of Fantasy and Science, often blurring the line. A truly fantastic example of this is Anne McAffrey's Dragonriders of Pern, where whether the setting is perceived as Fantasy or Science-Fiction would be down to which era you were reading about.

Such as—caveat lector but five decades is long enough to not have to worry about spoilers, I'd think—before or after they discovered that there are spaceships and that dragons are genetically engineered creatures.

In more recent years we've seen the lines blur again as I feel most have become tired with the... stark separation between the two, desiring a merging of the realms if you will. (No one's going to get that reference, even were I to belabour it to say it's been a journey getting here.) Hm. There have been clumsier applications of this creative amalgamation, popularising the combination of the two as though it were an original idea, and they've paved the way for stronger examples of how the genre used to be. Loathe as I am to admit it, World of Warcraft likely played a large role by... Well, ripping off Warhammer wholesale. Blizzard's always been better at marketing the stolen works of others than their original creators ever were.

So, what does this gun do? Does it make sense? Rule of Wonder. There's probably some in-Universe explanation that doesn't have to have anything to do with ours. How did that norn leap five miles across a gorge, at such a bizarre trajectory, only to land gracefully on their feet without breaking their legs? I mean, I don't know if that's actually happened in Guild Wars as it's hyperbole, but knowing the norn it probably has.

How does this spell work? How do you summon food out of the aether? How does this gun work? Rule of Wonder.

Guild Wars 2 has played with some interesting perspectives of this as well as there's th dark side of the Rule of Wonder. If you're playing with things you truly don't understand, it might just blow up in your face. It might just blow up into a very ornery, upset, and murderous flame elemental. I think the asura might know a thing or two about that. I'd say lately they've gotten better about their scientific practises when dealing with dangerous and poorly understood forces.

There is a dark side to wonder indeed. I think this is represented by the torment and the tumultuous nature of magicks and magical creatures within the realm of Tyria. I mean, I would trust the norn Spirits of the Wild as far as I could throw them. Skeevy doesn't even begin to encapsulate tehir manipulative, narcissistic, and sadistic mores.

This tumult has lead to questioning whom can be trusted where magicks are involved. I know that we all have our opinions about that! That's how it is, though, with so little understood it always invites an air of mystery and you will have to suspend your disbelief with what's possible because with warped physics and magicks in the mix there's no essentially valid comparison to be made between our reality and theirs.

If you can shield yourself in magic and leap great distances, there's no reason not to throw yourself at a tank. If you can get a lanky tank to stand upright so that it can fit through all but the tightest of alleyways then you might as well do that too. If you can have a metallic car with giant, equally metal wheels do wheelies then why the heck not? All bets are off.

The point is is that anything we could draw from our reality probably isn't directly applicable to theirs due to the massive number of different and new variables in play. If the charr managed to figure out quantum computing due to quirks in their reality that enabled them to do it quicker than we have in ours, it can't really be questioned because—to say it again—such comparisons aren't useful.

It's like being irate that the charr have evolved so quickly in technological fields without taking into account the differences in physics, physical reality, and magicks that's come over silly to me in the past. We can't expect things to just work the way they do in our reality. The part I find especially fun is how the Rule of Wonder applies to technology as well as magicks, much as it has in some of my favourite settings, which is always worth taking into consideration.

How can you throw a fireball? Rule of Wonder. How can that fireball be withstood by a tank? Rule of Wonder. There's probably some material that has anti-magic properties. This is, in fact, true. Materials in Guild Wars have been shown to have either magical or anti-magical properties—ghosts cannot pass through black iron, which is precisely why the Black Citadel is made from the stuff.

So warfare systems in our world might not be applicable. If you were to have trenches, it'd be a simple matter for an Elementalist to flood them with lava—or water! Plain old water is good too. But then you have to consider that the charr could also probably drive one of their super-lanky all-terrain tanks down into enemy trenches as well, since it'd fit. It's just a funny mental image, it makes me giggle, you wouldn't want to be in trenches with one of those. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if the Black Citadel can transform into the bloody Technodrome.

I think that this is why the most applicable warfare types just seem to involve a mix of guerilla tactics and everyone just scampering off everywhere in a mad free for all because it's just chaos. That's just how it is. It's more fun that way, I think.

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