DPS Staff Weaver becoming Meta?

[Jski.6180]

@"God.2708" said:Frankly, it feels like a lot of the complaints about weaver in this topic are solved by actually putting weaver in a party with support. Meteor shower's channel isn't so bad when you have quickness, no? And if there's a bit of alacrity oh boy howdy. The only struggle weaver has is that it gets redundant really quickly (there's no reason to have more than 1 per 20 opponents) and that it thrives off game mode knowledge a lot more than class knowledge, as you have to interpret commander calls or zerg movements into weaver language rather than taking them at face value.

So weaver and ele classes over all need to stay mobile due to the low hp / low def of the class. This means its harder to support an ele because of this so you cant count on short lasting effects like quickness from other classes. If weaver or ele had a self quickness you would have a point but because of the "one" class quickness ele has from lighting hammer conja wepon its not a real boon to count on in a real fight.

That is what holding weaver and realty all eles from wvw meta this need for mobile to stay alive and mobile alone. This is partly why classes like thf also are not in the meta you cant be in the melee ball when pushing nor can you be in the range ball when kiteing.

Think of it this way if necro had to stop to cast there well even for 1/2 of a sec how bad they would be as a class or if necro had ele level hp with no barriers to fall back on. If gurds had to stop for all of there stab support or even rev not being able to move when landing there cor or had low hp / armor it would comply mess up there game play and THAT is what the ele class have to live with to play there roll as a dps making them less then meta in wvw.

[solemn.9608]

@Jski.6180 said:

@"God.2708" said:Frankly, it feels like a lot of the complaints about weaver in this topic are solved by actually putti...

So weaver and ele classes over all need to stay mobile due to the low hp / low def of the class. This means its harder to support an ele because of this so you cant count on shor...

That is what holding weaver and realty all eles from wvw meta this need for mobile to stay alive and mobile alone. This is partly why classes like thf also are not in the meta you cant be in the melee ball when pushing nor can you be in the range ball when kiteing.

I don't really understand the problem. If you're an experienced staff weaver & good with your hands/video games in general it's not hard to do top deeps while mobilizing around the tag in ways that make sense and keep you alive for the most part (save for the odd bad luck, mistake etc). Staff Weaver is not a casual build. Can't play it casually and expect it to feel meta.

It's impossible to talk about this without sounding like I'm condescending/telling everyone to git gud. This is a video game on the internet, I have absolutely no ego in this game anymore but that being said -- this is really what the issue here is. It's just a L2P issue. Staff weaver is make it or break it. It won't be meta when you're just starting out on it. It won't be meta if you don't run full glass because you'll just do suboptimal dmg with all the weaknesses of ele. You're either at 110% effort and topping the meters nearly flawlessly or you're already downed or doing no significant damage. That's just what Staff Weaver is right now (and has been for awhile).

Think of it like a Dark Souls speed run vs a 100% dark souls playthrough. You can speed-run the game with minimal armour/weapons - seemingly impossible but actually very possible and very effective ... or you can just do a casual playthrough and get casual playthrough results. That's just what Staff Weaver is right now (and has been for awhile).

and to the inevitable question of "why bother putting in so much effort", I donno, why do people do dark souls speedruns? It's fun for them, and some people just have really fast fingers. Why do some people play chords on acoustic guitars, and other people shred at 160bpm doing 8-string sweeps? Because it's fun and some people can do that. But imagine trying to play 8 string sweeps as a beginner guitarist using a 6-string acoustic; yeah that's not gonna feel or sound very good! Lol! Likewise staff weaver will never feel meta unless you gain a passion for it, run the correct build (full glass), mobilize at the right times, dodge at the right times, predict everything with some degree of accuracy, heal up pre-emptively when you know a buttload of retal is coming, etc ..

[RisenHowl.2419]

weaver's like 90% positioning knowledge, 10% class knowledge imo

[uberkingkong.8041]

What you expect from a class that is squishy, low hp, low defense?They have LOW HP LOW DEFENSE....Balance here now.Offensive, is suppose to be good. They have LOW HP and DEFENSE.

They have Good offensive and you mad about it????Did I mention they have low hp and defense?

Meta is good at everything. GOOD HP, GOOD DEFENSE, GOOD OFFENSE.That sounds like a guardian to me, a Weaver is nowhere near what is meta.

[solemn.9608]

@uberkingkong.8041 said:What you expect from a class that is squishy, low hp, low defense?They have LOW HP LOW DEFENSE....Balance here now.Offensive, is suppose to be good. They have LOW HP and DEFENSE.

They have Good offensive and you mad about it????Did I mention they have low hp and defense?

Meta is good at everything. GOOD HP, GOOD DEFENSE, GOOD OFFENSE.That sounds like a guardian to me, a Weaver is nowhere near what is meta.

That's not how meta builds work in any group-oriented game.If it was then we would just see blobs of cele firebrands all the time and nothing else.<__<

I've been saying this since I started playing Weaver and I'llllll sssAAAY it aGAIN

just because some of us can't, doesn't mean that those of us who can shouldn't.

[Voltekka.2375]

Weaver was never offmeta. Those who know the class did and do great dps.

[uberkingkong.8041]

@Voltekka.2375 said:Weaver was never offmeta. Those who know the class did and do great dps.

Yeahgreat dps

Meanwhile hp/defense? Not good enough.

Meta means overall you are good

WeaverOffense 9/10Defense 2/10HP 1/10Overall 12/30, aint nothing Meta about that.

MeanwhileFirebrandOffense 8/10Defense 9/10HP 9/10Overall 26/30, thats really good, that's Meta.

---

Who complains about thieves and rangers? Probably some elementalist. Offense is only good if you know they coming, if you are on offense.Once you on defense. If you aint got defense aint got HP. Expect to get rekt when playing defense.Rangers and Thieves? They make you play defense.They make elementalist cry about them.Can't be meta if you have a weakness

[God.2708]

@uberkingkong.8041 said:

@Voltekka.2375 said:Weaver was never offmeta. Those who know the class did and do great dps.

Yeahgreat dps

Meanwhile hp/defense? Not good enough.

Meta means overall you are good

WeaverOffense 9/10Defense 2/10HP 1/10Overall 12/30, aint nothing Meta about that.

MeanwhileFirebrandOffense 8/10Defense 9/10HP 9/10Overall 26/30, thats really good, that's Meta.

WeaverOffense 25/10Defense 2/10HP 3/10Overall 30/30

FirebrandOffense -5/10Defense 9/10HP 3/10Overall 7/30

Firebrand doesn't seem so hot TBH. Dunno what you are talking about.

[Jski.6180]

@solemn.9608 said:

@Jski.6180 said:

@"God.2708" said:Frankly, it feels like a lot of the complaints about weaver in this topic are solved by actually putti...

So weaver and ele classes over all need to stay mobile due to the low hp / low def of the class. This means its harder to support an ele because of this so you cant count on shor...

That is what holding weaver and realty all eles from wvw meta this need for mobile to stay alive and mobile alone. This is partly why classes like thf also are not in the meta you cant be in the melee ball when pushing nor can you be in the range ball when kiteing.

I don't really understand the problem. If you're an experienced staff weaver & good with your hands/video games in general it's not hard to do top deeps while mobilizing around the tag in ways that make sense and keep you alive for the most part (save for the odd bad luck, mistake etc). Staff Weaver is not a casual build. Can't play it casually and expect it to feel meta.

It's impossible to talk about this without sounding like I'm condescending/telling everyone to git gud. This is a video game on the internet, I have absolutely no ego in this game anymore but that being said -- this is really what the issue here is. It's just a L2P issue. Staff weaver is make it or break it. It won't be meta when you're just starting out on it. It won't be meta if you don't run full glass because you'll just do suboptimal dmg with all the weaknesses of ele. You're either at 110% effort and topping the meters nearly flawlessly or you're already downed or doing no significant damage. That's just what Staff Weaver is right now (and has been for awhile).

Think of it like a Dark Souls speed run vs a 100% dark souls

playthrough

. You can speed-run the game with minimal armour/weapons - seemingly impossible but actually

very

possible and

very

effective ... or you can just do a casual playthrough and get casual playthrough results. That's just what Staff Weaver is right now (and has been for awhile).

and to the inevitable question of "why bother putting in so much effort", I donno, why do people do dark souls speedruns? It's fun for them, and some people just have really fast fingers. Why do some people play chords on acoustic guitars, and other people shred at 160bpm doing 8-string sweeps? Because it's fun and some people can do that. But imagine trying to play 8 string sweeps as a beginner guitarist using a 6-string acoustic; yeah that's not gonna feel or sound very good! Lol! Likewise staff weaver will never feel meta unless you gain a passion for it, run the correct build (full glass), mobilize at the right times, dodge at the right times, predict everything with some degree of accuracy, heal up pre-emptively when you know a buttload of retal is coming, etc ..

That the thing about staff weaver if you play it right you simply cant be supported in the same way as other classes. You always have to be in the right places and acting at the right time to the point of running in-frond of the main group and being able to land your effects before the other team can get there main support out and before they can blow you up with out real def support from your team.

If you play weaver right your support will never be able to keep up so your missing out on a lot of support boons other classes give to you leaving an weaver needing to self support. Like your Dark souls your not getting support from any one your on your own and you must play in such a way to be on your own AND you lose out because your on your own.

This is why weaver will never be truly meta with out the same effect given to other classes like rev whom can self quickness or an necro who has build in counter dmg mitigation (unblockalbes and boon strips).

The "get gud" is what kills weaver from the meta and will always hold it back as an meta class vs the other ranged dmg classes in wvw.

In a boon base meta thoughts who get the most out of the boons (classes who can be get them in normal combat as well as being able to translate boons into detect dmg boots to the other team) or who can counter the boons (classes who can strip boons or make boons less likely to be reapplied) are the meta. Ele is just not that class.

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

I'm not sure if they're meta, but you definitely want to have one around. I kept my Marauder set for when I want to go zerging, and I run Staff Ele. The thing that amazes me the most about it is how much I can push and move a fight. I can halt an advance, or even kill a large number of people with just a few skills. I even PUgmanded with a heal version, and that worked out pretty well, too. Though, that was when shouts affected 10 people...

The point being that Ele is good at controlling space. Whether it is through hard CC like Unsteady Ground or Static Field, Soft CC like Arcane Wave, Frozen Ground, and Shockwave, or through sheer intimidation with Meteor Shower or Fiery Greatsword. They're not completely useless on the boon front, as they tend to provide swiftness and protection, and even some might depending on the build.

I say that you want one, because a lot of these utilities don't scale up that well. It only takes one Meteor Storm or Static Field to dissuade a group.

[God.2708]

@"Jski.6180" said:In a boon base meta thoughts who get the most out of the boons (classes who can be get them in normal combat as well as being able to translate boons into detect dmg boots to the other team) or who can counter the boons (classes who can strip boons or make boons less likely to be reapplied) are the meta. Ele is just not that class.

It really isn't that hard to move with the squad on a weaver and get most of the boons. Sure there is a difference in how 'hard' a weaver is to play vs something like pre-nerf scourge. But that's getting technical over the definition of 'META' rather than answering the question posed by OP.

And if quickness is your concern, I have this wonderful item that syncs really well with meteor shower:https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Superior_Sigil_of_Rage

[solemn.9608]

@"Jski.6180" said:snipThe "get gud" is what kills weaver from the meta and will always hold it back as an meta class vs the other ranged dmg classes in wvw.

In a boon base meta thoughts who get the most out of the boons (classes who can be get them in normal combat as well as being able to translate boons into detect dmg boots to the other team) or who can counter the boons (classes who can strip boons or make boons less likely to be reapplied) are the meta. Ele is just not that class.

It's not just about boons though, man. Can't tell you how many times I've fought as a pug without boons, joined the squad after the fight and seen that I still got top damage. Staff Weaver doesn't really need boons. People get tunnel vision when they talk about the WvW meta because they don't question things or desire to innovate, they just go off of what has always been known: hybrid damage/support, support, boons, strips, cleanses etc.. same old boring meta formula because we're afraid of the unknown.

Those are just symptoms of a good meta comp in general, not the be-all-end-all meta formula.

Add some staff weavers who know their stuff to your comps. See the improvements...

[Downstate.4697]

Any asset ele brings to a group another profession can provide to a larger extent. Its a pretty flexible profession but comps require optimization of roles. Ele can do a lot of different things, but nothing better than other professions. Its good, but doesnt fit anywhere. Nerf boon durations and skills that heal others and ele would have more value with access to water fields and cc. They were good because they did damage on top of spreading out the enemy zerg so your team can single out stragglers. They were also a reliable source of cleave damage to secure kills from afar.

[solemn.9608]

@uberkingkong.8041 said:

@Voltekka.2375 said:Weaver was never offmeta. Those who know the class did and do great dps.

Yeahgreat dps

Meanwhile hp/defense? Not good enough.

Meta means overall you are good

WeaverOffense 9/10Defense 2/10HP 1/10Overall 12/30, aint nothing Meta about that.

MeanwhileFirebrandOffense 8/10Defense 9/10HP 9/10Overall 26/30, thats really good, that's Meta.

---

Who complains about thieves and rangers? Probably some elementalist. Offense is only good if you know they coming, if you are on offense.

Once you on defense. If you aint got defense aint got HP. Expect to get rekt when playing defense.

Rangers and Thieves? They make you play defense.They make elementalist cry about them.

Can't be meta if you have a weakness

Honestly man, this post & your last as well, you just make me giggle.Your bias is so evident in everything you type that I don't even see a point in trying to change your mind.

@FrownyClown.8402 said:Any asset ele brings to a group another profession can provide to a larger extent. Its a pretty flexible profession but comps require optimization of roles. Ele can do a lot of different things, but nothing better than other professions. Its good, but doesnt fit anywhere. Nerf boon durations and skills that heal others and ele would have more value with access to water fields and cc. They were good because they did damage on top of spreading out the enemy zerg so your team can single out stragglers. They were also a reliable source of cleave damage to secure kills from afar.

Glad you appreciate the more subtle aspects of ele in WvW but I'm surprised with your first remark. Ele does better damage than any other profession in WvW zergs. I'm not sure why anyone would think otherwise. That's not just my ele-main bias. It's true. Has been true for a looooong time. Not everyone has realized it yet, but it's been true and still is.

[Jski.6180]

@solemn.9608 said:

@"Jski.6180" said:snipThe "get gud" is what kills weaver from the meta and will always hold it back as an meta class vs the other ranged dmg classes in wvw.

In a boon base meta thoughts who get the most out of the boons (classes who can be get them in normal combat as well as being able to translate boons into detect dmg boots to the other team) or who can counter the boons (classes who can strip boons or make boons less likely to be reapplied) are the meta. Ele is just not that class.

It's not just about boons though, man. Can't tell you how many times I've fought as a pug without boons, joined the squad after the fight and seen that I still got top damage. Staff Weaver doesn't really need boons. People get tunnel vision when they talk about the WvW meta because they don't question things or desire to innovate, they just go off of what has always been known: hybrid damage/support, support, boons, strips, cleanses etc.. same old boring meta formula because we're afraid of the unknown.

Those are just symptoms of a good meta comp in general, not the be-all-end-all meta formula.

Add some staff weavers who know their stuff to your comps. See the improvements...

It would not be called boon meta if the boons where not the massive power spike ppl where using to fight in wvw. The effects of having and not having a boon in wvw is the game atm.

@God.2708 said:

@"Jski.6180" said:In a boon base meta thoughts who get the most out of the boons (classes who can be get them in normal combat as well as being able to translate boons into detect dmg boots to the other team) or who can counter the boons (classes who can strip boons or make boons less likely to be reapplied) are the meta. Ele is just not that class.

It really isn't that hard to move with the squad on a weaver and get most of the boons. Sure there is a difference in how 'hard' a weaver is to play vs something like pre-nerf scourge. But that's getting technical over the definition of 'META' rather than answering the question posed by OP.

And if quickness is your concern, I have this wonderful item that syncs really well with meteor shower:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Superior_Sigil_of_Rage

It is not a good silgi as the timing for the skill when you will use and its a time one use ever 20 sec quickness from this sigil is not worth it when other classes simply have it one button away. The power spike from this one boon alone is a make a brake for dps classes.

[Zeesh.7286]

Why are we still discussing this? It's been so many debates on this...You won't need more than 3-4 in a group of 50 but I think having those 3-4 good weavers is META right now. We're not going to see a 10 weavers in full groups of 50 though but you need to run a couple provided they are good. And weaver has been consistently top DPS for a big while now not just the recent patch.A good staff weaver will consistently get top DPS or at the very least be in the top 3 even if they mess up placing their meteors. And we're not talking about weavers doing 100k damage while other classes are dishing out like 80k. When a weaver does 100k, the next best DPS is around 40k or something. The damage output for glass canon staff weaver (assuming your placement is good) is miles ahead of anything any other class can dish out.

I do think a simple removal of the rooting while casting meteor would be an amazing Quality of life change and balance. Now if someone will kindly communicate this to Anet balance team.