Less zerg WvW

[kamikharzeeh.8016]

anyone who wants less zergs just rejects the prime reason why Wvw even exists. large scale epic battles in the best case. the most damage to this is actually that often the numbers aren't equal. and on even level, 10 more people on one side have an effect. like if u have a map with 30 slackers or afkers, you will have a hard time against the enemy 50-60 ppl zoneblob, since u fight at least with 10 ppl less.

@Kylden Ar.3724 he'll notice when he gets jumped by 10 thieves or pew pewd by 10 rangers after every corner xD a pvE-PvP where u have to participate is like.... an effetive ban of like 90% of players lmfao

like, i'd be not against having sth like a map of a more structured size for pvp. but u cannot bring pve'ers automatically into it. they'd just get steamrolled while not even realizing what just ran over them.

@"uberkingkong.8041" rkingkong.8041" especially thieves can be geared to really solo lords. every class should be able to win that with a group of 3 people. even the strong lords of red border and the stonemist one are beatable in very small groups. but u normally cannot calculate on that, usually defenders show up, and strong lords help obviously at defending, bc many people would really need dodging tutorials thaha.

u probably just never played on voice or don't understand the commands and strategies yet. range only is a very rare thing. at some point u have to push, there's always very close range involved. the only real distance is rev hammer3 and a few eles freecasting. the rest is usually used in under 900 range even.

[Kylden Ar.3724]

@Strider Pj.2193 said:

@Kylden Ar.3724 said:

@Strider Pj.2193 said:Two people can take a T-3 tower, 3-4 a keep.

Having supply from one person being enough to fully build siege isn’t an answer that will work.

Sometimes you can solo a T3 keep if you time it right and no one is on (or they won't stop obsessing over stupid middle fort).

Agreed.

Though I know MY limitations. I could get in and get to the lord, but I wouldn’t be able to solo them. I just am not good enough to do that.

I think what the OP fails to realize is Havocing is often as fun as roaming. Making a servers Zerg freak out and run back to their EBG or their BL to defend something can be one of the most satisfying moments in the game.

We had a group of 5 of us keep one of the celebrity commanders coming back to their garrison (T3) 4-5 times in a matter of an hour.

They didn’t wipe us any of the times, and we escaped to come back.

THAT is fun to me.. ?

Now... did we end up in 5vX skirmishes from that? Yes! Which is what made it fun. But his Zerg didn’t touch us.

This is the way.

[kamikharzeeh.8016]

by the amount of times our server, even with a link now, is able to get even >35 ppl groups, Wvw rather needs FAR more "zerging". u cannot do anything with the classes people bring... full maps = 70~ players on it, and u cannot get a proper 45 ppl blob even.

ergo u cannot go for anything, bc the siegespam just downs half of your group, and 5+ more die bc they don't get that u shouldn't res the glasscannons, and seem to never learn it.

i'm not very positive towards thinking 5ish skirmishes are good. u're lost if u don't have any (good) spvpers on the map, bc against these 5 ppl voice groups, pugs are nearly useless. they often have even macros and at least speedhacks on, we had that yesterday with one of these roamerguilds. even after killing them, they're back within seconds, move with constant superspeed, build and fire ballistas with constant quickness, and have even for double alacrity absurd fast ability recharge time.

gets to another problem, things like condi rev still existing is a joke. meanwhile anet nerfed the zergset of rev like 3-4 times... on red border lord quality, that wouldn't matter too much, the lords there are strong enough to threaten 99% of 5 ppl groups enough to be defendable with a few people only. just alpine + EBG never got these updates. after like what, 4-5 years, even after the next expansion, still no adaption. the lords of towers are literally no big deal for 2 regular players.

like, if a zerg has to hop for 5 players, then something's essentially wrong in the system. often just lacking reports, misunderstanding or non using of siege to defend etc. no big wonder if u let players with several thousand ranks go against those with not even 100 rank. and no wonder u get a lack of content, it's deadly boring to play like that. a cloud has no chance against a real coordinated 50 man voice group with class balance. if the blob is uncoordinated however, it's just easy to pick them off 1v1. that's not even zergbusting, bc u never fight the majority of numbers..

but overall again, we need MORE zergs in wvw, not less. having full maps without full groups is the real bane here.

[Aeolus.3615]

People gather in a uniquye zerg cause they are new or want no effort agaisnt smaller groups, thats why zergs exist, when u have at least half of the zerg size, dont fight it scatter into serveral groups and take diferent objectives over and over in diferent maps, monoblob zerg players will get burderned over time.

A full queue zerg can take a t3 in 2-4minutes.

[kamikharzeeh.8016]

@"Aeolus.3615" said:People gather in a uniquye zerg cause they are new or want no effort agaisnt smaller groups, thats why zergs exist, when u have at least half of the zerg size, dont fight it scatter into serveral groups and take diferent objectives over and over in diferent maps, monoblob zerg players will get burderned over time.

A full queue zerg can take a t3 in 2-4minutes.

that's as wrong as you can try to explain "zerg" lol. coordinated largscale fights use specific builds and group compositions and commandos to acutally fight against other large scale groups.

u only get this rarely, often only on reset bc most players are so skyscreaming casual, that it is impossible to provide it on most days, sadly.u talk about a zoneblob (50-60 people) and even they can get wiped by any other blob. not a safe bet for nothing. we wiped way bigger numbers so many times...

the small coordinated groups of 5-15 ppl are often just the real gankers. bc they try to get into objectives through backdoors and unnoticed, so that they can gank the few unlucky players who have chosen to defend it.

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

There's only one reason this game is overrun with zergs, and its rather a simple reason. There's no rewards for small scale, and there's plenty of rewards for large scale. You can run around and take camps an towers with 3-5 players all day, but until you're getting anywhere even close to the rewards that PPT'ers are getting, the game's not going to shift in favor of smaller groups.

Players chase money, and zergy PPT trains are like money (WXP, Karma, Skirmish Tickets, etc.) raining from the sky.

That said there's alot of changes they could make to give underdogs the advantage, which is not the same as forcing small scale. Having 30 vs 50 is still an underdog, even if its considered a large scale blob battle, and it can still be a curb stomp just in numbers alone. The fact that the weaker side can't put up any kind of a fight in most cases is the real problem here, not small/large scale.

The smaller server should always have an advantage, especially when defending.

(Target caps are the root of the problem, but there's alot more.)

[Yasai.3549]

I think that Anet needs to see coverage for each timezone and just pair accordingly.

Some servers with only a one active timezone are extra shafted when made a host.And as an extra slap in the face, they usually receive a smaller server as a link, making it impossible to conduct any WvW activities other than their one populated timezone due to the massive numbers they have to face.

[Dawdler.8521]

@kamikharzeeh.8016 said:the small coordinated groups of 5-15 ppl are often just the real gankers. bc they try to get into objectives through backdoors and unnoticed, so that they can gank the few unlucky players who have chosen to defend it.Thats a weird way to describe a group trying to cap an objective and an equally weird way to describe those that defend it.

[kamikharzeeh.8016]

not at all.

@"Yasai.3549" that would like require EU+NA links tho, bc there's always late-nightgroups who run still at 30ish size, which is kinda broken there. (1am-7am)

the whole system just doesn't work. we need either full unlinks for everyone or finally kinda "Alliance" system to fix the populations. full unlinks would need to make everyone get the BBay treatment tho to work.

[Aeolus.3615]

@kamikharzeeh.8016 said:

@"Aeolus.3615" said:People gather in a uniquye zerg cause they are new or want no effort agaisnt smaller groups, thats why zergs exist, when u have at least half of the zerg size, dont fight it scatter into serveral groups and take diferent objectives over and over in diferent maps, monoblob zerg players will get burderned over time.

A full queue zerg can take a t3 in 2-4minutes.

that's as wrong as you can try to explain "zerg" lol. coordinated largscale fights use specific builds and group compositions and commandos to acutally fight against other large scale groups.

u only get this rarely, often only on reset bc most players are so skyscreaming casual, that it is impossible to provide it on most days, sadly.u talk about a zoneblob (50-60 people) and even they can get wiped by any other blob. not a safe bet for nothing. we wiped way bigger numbers so many times...

the small coordinated groups of 5-15 ppl are often just the real gankers. bc they try to get into objectives through backdoors and unnoticed, so that they can gank the few unlucky players who have chosen to defend it.

Sorry not what ic... theres also guilds that moved server and decided to play on diferent timezones so they could ktrain, good think it didnt worked well for them...Most groups ic monoblobing are high link populations VS empty timezones, they search where is less to fight cause is how the game is ment to work... go where theres less fight and more ktrain.. sadly...

Not sure why u call 5-15 real gankers, a group with 10+ should be more than enough to make enemy call a zerg to defend against that group (its actually what happens to us, similiar groups cant win, instant 40-50+ came to solve the problem), reason for my exp most fights are one sided due pure sheer numbers nothing else.

Specific "cordinated" fights.... been there when i notice most players are just misntrell users on the other side, 20-30 FB, 15-20 sracpers mostly tons of aura minstrell tempes as well, minstrel stacking ... right that when i just alt f4 and go play some other game, the more ic those onmi blob builds the more i cry about quality of the game and players..Now theres even a minstrell herald build with ventari(this is a huge mistake for that setup but okkk)... minstrell druids, minstrel tempest, minstrell core necros, minstrell warriors.Blob gameplay is anoying for many reasons its more spamwars witgh gimmicks than actually decent gameplay(most players dont even know what hit them nor what they are hitting lol they just aoe when they think they have to or when the mother goose screams to), besides the FPS drop and pink spikes on those fights are awfull.

[kamikharzeeh.8016]

moving to different timezones? that's just few servers, and some that have adopted many NA guilds. that is another issue. ktraining empty maps isn't really difficult

well yeah, if the 5 defenders cannot kill the 10-15 attackers and u want to keep the objective for whatever reason, you obviously call the cavalry. the zerg won't port if the comm doesn't port, bc getting back on the map gets difficult then.

so if the tag has 40 people, then bringing all those to wipe those 15ish (reports often are very very unclear, because good reports are rare sight these days) quickly, to continue what they did on the other border, maybe fighting similar sized groups, is the logic consequence. takes 5minutes and u can continue with the fights, if u don't defend it the 15 will just poke the next objective, maybe a t3 keep now.

if u don't punish their behaviour, they just continue and your pugs and smallscale people who care about ppt will rage or be upset. as small group, if you'd spot the enemy group early enough, you could just port away or set up a starblastbomb. 15 v 40 isn't that crazy to win with a coordinated guildgroup against a opentag.

"Specific "cordinated" fights.... been there when i notice most players are just misntrell users on the other side, 20-30 FB, 15-20 sracpers mostly tons of aura minstrell tempes as well, minstrel stacking ..."minstrel herald sounds pretty useless - i'm not even a huge fan of renegade (u see that one sometimes bc alacrity uwu), nobody really needs druids, core necros are overall just to consider if u are a f2p account. idk why that'd be played minstrel style tho

i've never seen a blob like this. saw few of the very bulky blobs, but even twenty firebrands? u barely get that during reset lol. that would be trying to kill the other group with just... retaliation? eh. sounds rather bad and should get deleted by proper strips and spikes. mainly gotta place your bubbles into them, lead with the firebrands, strip and corrupt with the necros and warriors/chronos and then the revs should clean up at least half of those in one push

if sth does just not die, the damage-output of your zerg just needs a review.

we also have now and then the issue that we get like 2 scrouges per party, but somehow most of them fail to do their job. which is nearly hard, since it's a crazy powerful class. boon corruption with every other klick, still it happens that 10/12 scrouges are just exploding. while they have access to self-stab, two types of barries and condi-cleanse, as well as several mid-range bomb/corrupts.

[Aeolus.3615]

@"kamikharzeeh.8016" we dont get a large group that often, if we get 10 we are kinda happy, buuuuuut when it happens and we have a zerg, combats are still one sided in this case to our side most of the time and situations becasue theres no enemy :bleep_bloop: our comander actually has a channel on youtube where we recorded some random fights, nothing special :.

We are more experimental builds than "must follow meta or u will be slaped IRL" there are so many good builds outhere, still they ended being more dificult to play rather than select ur aoe meta spammer and join the meta ktrain, this doesnt help players atitute nor the game and they think meta blob builds its the only way to play.

IMo 2 scourges for each party is a bit to muchi assume ur using:

1x FB minstrells,1x Tempest auras minstrell,2x zerker scourges,1x zerker Hammer Jalis / minstrell scrapper / Minstrell hammer shout Spellbreaker

This combos is what ic most times, altough chronos minstrell is something that some guilds use due its amazing boon rip, m8 be the stronguest in the game.

I still feel that the more players a guild or server has, the more they try to stack minstrell builds not only because the numbers but its performance in larger blobby gameplay, its either zerker or minstrell it doesn exist that build nor stats variety, actually we tend to see more variety at small scale than blob groups.Latelly ive been observing many minstrell builds apearing into the gameplay. :\ even i that play wvw with a support rev would never use minstrell even if i were comanding would never use those stats on rev, wanderer or diviner are much better options to start with.

[kamikharzeeh.8016]

i'd not want 2 scrouges per party, that was just an example of a random map fill at reset, and it would be rather fine if enemy doesn't have a great rev spike and if all scrouges would play very effective (which most for reasons don't). usually u barely get any scrappers, esp not the support ones, and not enough firebrands. warrior bubbles and chronos are also rather random. sometimes great, sometimes they just play non useful sets or mess up the bubble-casts, misplace the veils etc.

u just cannot do much when a map cap is 70-75, map gets full but not more than 35-40 even join the squad.

tempest is imo also rather a choice-slot. it recently got nerfed, and normally minstrel scrapper for the invisibility setup is staple (or should be, used to be)

basically FB, scrapper, spellbreaker/chrono, herald, scrouge is the standard-mosteffective-core.spellbreaker for strips/bubble/shouts/cc, chrono for invis/ccfields/bit-alac/illusion of life etcthe offensemode rev has just the best aoe-range damage, and it's crazy that it gets so many nerfs there. there's just nothing that can do its role, these nerfs just make bad choice more tempting...also scourge has great AoE options and booncorrupts, which catches hilariously big amounts of players off-guard. as downside, its naturally slow and without a good FB+scrapper it gets ping-ponged and cc'd to death, despite good self-sustain.

the warrior set can be run different. it has good mobility and doesn't need to be minstrel, so it can dish out more chipdmg.

blob groups, so 45+ are hard to really analize imo. u cannot exactly know what ppl play directly. there is groups that just explode or somehow fail to deal any damage, but u never know that at the first encounter.

also the real art is to position yourself in blobfights, to not just mindlessly spam your skills. a good group can use that against you, and roll you afterwards. pushing when an opening is given, not falling for bait - that is the real tactics in Wvw. i nearly never saw more in smallscale than some pirateshipping. a voiced 5 ppl group should never have issues to farm 10 randoms. they can easily focus single players down and randoms often have no experience with fighting.

also the server "tiers" matter not really, since it's just the most active ppt that counts in the end. u don't need any real fighting capability for "winning" a matchup. the kd/R often shows another picture - and smallscale also has no real effect on that.