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Why is Living World such a flop?


Firebeard.1746

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Like in general the content just doesn't pull people in, like it lacks hype and I just don't get why. I finally got around to doing the Elegy Armor collection a month or so ago and I feel like that was one of my most powerful story experiences ever in an MMO. I understand that most LW episodes aren't Jahai "A star to guide us" level awesome, but I feel like if the quality is there, there should be a way to pull more people in.

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I don't know if that's necesaarily true though. Like if you look at WoW for example there's undoubtedly a simila4 pattern where patch/raid releases aren't nearly as hype as an expansion there either. I think that's a lot more a case of general consequence related to the dynamic between expansions and non expansions rather than a flaw of gw2. Do also keep in mind that while I lack numbers I also feel gw2 is quantifiably not as expansive as say ff14 and WoW as far ad their communities go, so hype always ends up fundamentally smaller and takes more effort to build

Edit: Various spelling and punctuation.

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The LS episodes draw people in when they are new, and then the players move to the latest LS when it releases. So the old LS (and really, even old core maps) generally don't have a lot of players because people are playing the latest content.There are some exceptions, as there are some interesting meta events that draw players in. The problem for the LS maps is that there are only so many metas people can do, so they start overlapping times with other metas, so now players are needing to choose meta A or meta B. And which one they choose could depend on many factors - how fast it is, the level of rewards, how interesting/fun it is to play, etc.

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The issue is players move onto newer more rewarding content. The game is so big now that older maps suffer and players won’t return to content where there is a lot of group content which gives no real return for their play.

When they reverted dailies to one map a day per season, it really hurt the maps imo

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@kharmin.7683 said:

@"AliamRationem.5172" said:Then they decided to announce maintenance mode when they should have been working on another expansion all along.When was maintenance mode announced?

My choice of words was a criticism of their decision not to work on another expansion (i.e. their failure to invest in this game's future). Was that not clear in the context of my statement? Or do you really want to engage in an argument over the strict definition of "maintenance mode"? I know it's a popular subject and all. I'm just not sure it would be productive.

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@AliamRationem.5172 said:

@AliamRationem.5172 said:Then they decided to announce maintenance mode when they should have been working on another expansion all along.When was maintenance mode announced?

My choice of words was a criticism of their decision not to work on another expansion (i.e. their failure to invest in this game's future). Was that not clear in the context of my statement? Or do you really want to engage in an argument over the strict definition of "maintenance mode"? I know it's a popular subject and all. I'm just not sure it would be productive.

There already exists enough panic on the forums about the demise of ANet and GW2. You have seen the threads, I'm sure. Some might take your comment at face-value.

Besides, prior to the expansion announcement, how do we know that Anet was failing to invest in the game's future?

I get it. You're frustrated and disappointed. Many are. In my opinion, that isn't reason enough to add to the existing FUD with claims which have no basis.

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@Raknar.4735 said:

@"Naxos.2503" said:Arguably, and this is coming from the company itself : Icebrood Saga is -not- Living World. So there is some sort of consolation in that ?

Got any source on that? Afaik Anet has always seen IBS as part of the LW.

I have a hard time pinpointing it exactly, but it was part of their "Giving you expansion level content" speech, they tried to portray it as very different from Living World, hence why they didn't reprise the naming theme of Living World. It dates back to icebrood saga announcement

Edit : As it happens, I mis-remembered that : disregard !

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@Naxos.2503 said:

@Naxos.2503 said:Arguably, and this is coming from the company itself : Icebrood Saga is -not- Living World. So there is some sort of consolation in that ?

Got any source on that? Afaik Anet has always seen IBS as part of the LW.

I have a hard time pinpointing it exactly, but it was part of their "Giving you expansion level content" speech, they tried to portray it as very different from Living World, hence why they didn't reprise the naming theme of Living World. It dates back to icebrood saga announcement

You mean this announcement https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Icebrood_Saga_announcement?

Where Mike Z says things like:

  • "I speak for the entire team on Guild Wars 2 when I say that we are pumped to finally show you and unveil the next chapter of Living World" and
  • "Well, we're here to pull back the curtain on the continued commitment we have for Guild Wars 2 and the next chapter of Living Story. So without further ado, I want to introduce you to the new season."

Doesn't sound like IBS isn't LW to me. Sounds like someone is misinterpreting what Anet said, once again, and now spreading misinformation.

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In my opinion is that everything is extremely predictable. Very few twists to the story line that keeps you on the edge of your seat wanting more. As for jaw dropping moments there have not been many. I play the content just to get it behind me. I get the mastery back to max and move on.

For me lately is how the personal story / living world requires other people. Map meta or Instanced content you are always reliant on others. I personally go to the story when I want to have some alone time in the game. But recently its been opposite of what I would like to see. Ever since the release of Icebrood Saga I have found it hard to play this content. To much grind. There is an absence of content called creating zone specific weapons that anet seems to believe people want to do? Sure some people like this stuff but I would wager that most people don't bother with crafting all of them.

The illusion of free will. Take Drizzlewood Coast for example. I feel like a cat reacting to a laser pointer. Go here no no no Go here no Go here. I believe anet is so focused on trying to create a new feel that it forgets what it has done well in the past. Maybe we could have better quality of updates if they were not trying to recreate the wheel all the time.

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@Raknar.4735 said:

@Naxos.2503 said:Arguably, and this is coming from the company itself : Icebrood Saga is -not- Living World. So there is some sort of consolation in that ?

Got any source on that? Afaik Anet has always seen IBS as part of the LW.

I have a hard time pinpointing it exactly, but it was part of their "Giving you expansion level content" speech, they tried to portray it as very different from Living World, hence why they didn't reprise the naming theme of Living World. It dates back to icebrood saga announcement

You mean this announcement
?

Where Mike Z says things like:
  • "I speak for the entire team on Guild Wars 2 when I say that we are pumped to finally show you and unveil the next chapter of Living World" and
  • "Well, we're here to pull back the curtain on the continued commitment we have for Guild Wars 2 and the next chapter of Living Story. So without further ado, I want to introduce you to the new season."

Doesn't sound like IBS isn't LW to me. Sounds like someone is misinterpreting what Anet said, once again, and now spreading misinformation.

You're probably right about misinterpreting, however, spreading misinformation was never my intent. That's genuinely how I remembered it, which if it means anything just hints at a fault of marketing to me. But that is subjective.

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@Naxos.2503 said:

@Naxos.2503 said:Arguably, and this is coming from the company itself : Icebrood Saga is -not- Living World. So there is some sort of consolation in that ?

Got any source on that? Afaik Anet has always seen IBS as part of the LW.

I have a hard time pinpointing it exactly, but it was part of their "Giving you expansion level content" speech, they tried to portray it as very different from Living World, hence why they didn't reprise the naming theme of Living World. It dates back to icebrood saga announcement

You mean this announcement
?

Where Mike Z says things like:
  • "I speak for the entire team on Guild Wars 2 when I say that we are pumped to finally show you and unveil the next chapter of Living World" and
  • "Well, we're here to pull back the curtain on the continued commitment we have for Guild Wars 2 and the next chapter of Living Story. So without further ado, I want to introduce you to the new season."

Doesn't sound like IBS isn't LW to me. Sounds like someone is misinterpreting what Anet said, once again, and now spreading misinformation.

You're probably right about misinterpreting, however, spreading misinformation was never my intent. That's genuinely how I remembered it, which if it means anything just hints at a fault of marketing to me. But that is subjective.

It's fine. Just make sure to fact-check next time before claiming someone else made a statement. Even if not intended, wrong "truths" can spread that way.I'm not sure if marketing can actually do something about people not listening correctly ¯\(ツ)

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@Raknar.4735 said:

@Naxos.2503 said:Arguably, and this is coming from the company itself : Icebrood Saga is -not- Living World. So there is some sort of consolation in that ?

Got any source on that? Afaik Anet has always seen IBS as part of the LW.

I have a hard time pinpointing it exactly, but it was part of their "Giving you expansion level content" speech, they tried to portray it as very different from Living World, hence why they didn't reprise the naming theme of Living World. It dates back to icebrood saga announcement

You mean this announcement
?

Where Mike Z says things like:
  • "I speak for the entire team on Guild Wars 2 when I say that we are pumped to finally show you and unveil the next chapter of Living World" and
  • "Well, we're here to pull back the curtain on the continued commitment we have for Guild Wars 2 and the next chapter of Living Story. So without further ado, I want to introduce you to the new season."

Doesn't sound like IBS isn't LW to me. Sounds like someone is misinterpreting what Anet said, once again, and now spreading misinformation.

You're probably right about misinterpreting, however, spreading misinformation was never my intent. That's genuinely how I remembered it, which if it means anything just hints at a fault of marketing to me. But that is subjective.

It's fine. Just make sure to fact-check next time before claiming someone else made a statement. Even if not intended, wrong "truths" can spread that way.I'm not sure if marketing can actually do something about people not listening correctly ¯\
(ツ)

It's weird though, I wonder where I picked that up. I generally only have a wild imagination when sleep deprived. Regardless, I stand corrected

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@Naxos.2503 said:

@Naxos.2503 said:Arguably, and this is coming from the company itself : Icebrood Saga is -not- Living World. So there is some sort of consolation in that ?

Got any source on that? Afaik Anet has always seen IBS as part of the LW.

I have a hard time pinpointing it exactly, but it was part of their "Giving you expansion level content" speech, they tried to portray it as very different from Living World, hence why they didn't reprise the naming theme of Living World. It dates back to icebrood saga announcement

You mean this announcement
?

Where Mike Z says things like:
  • "I speak for the entire team on Guild Wars 2 when I say that we are pumped to finally show you and unveil the next chapter of Living World" and
  • "Well, we're here to pull back the curtain on the continued commitment we have for Guild Wars 2 and the next chapter of Living Story. So without further ado, I want to introduce you to the new season."

Doesn't sound like IBS isn't LW to me. Sounds like someone is misinterpreting what Anet said, once again, and now spreading misinformation.

You're probably right about misinterpreting, however, spreading misinformation was never my intent. That's genuinely how I remembered it, which if it means anything just hints at a fault of marketing to me. But that is subjective.

It's fine. Just make sure to fact-check next time before claiming someone else made a statement. Even if not intended, wrong "truths" can spread that way.I'm not sure if marketing can actually do something about people not listening correctly ¯\
(ツ)

It's weird though, I wonder where I picked that up. I generally only have a wild imagination when sleep deprived. Regardless, I stand corrected

The gaming magazines mislabelled the season after the initial revaal of IBS including in certain interviews. That somehow entered the comunity consciousness regardless of the fact it never came from Anet directly. All pve content - festivals, expacs, side stories are Living World and that hasn't ever changed despite varied focus

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@kharmin.7683 said:

@AliamRationem.5172 said:Then they decided to announce maintenance mode when they should have been working on another expansion all along.When was maintenance mode announced?

My choice of words was a criticism of their decision not to work on another expansion (i.e. their failure to invest in this game's future). Was that not clear in the context of my statement? Or do you really want to engage in an argument over the strict definition of "maintenance mode"? I know it's a popular subject and all. I'm just not sure it would be productive.

There already exists enough panic on the forums about the demise of ANet and GW2. You have seen the threads, I'm sure. Some might take your comment at face-value.

Besides, prior to the expansion announcement, how do we know that Anet was failing to invest in the game's future?

I get it. You're frustrated and disappointed. Many are. In my opinion, that isn't reason enough to add to the existing FUD with claims which have no basis.

Now you want to argue the definition of "failure to invest", too?

We're talking past tense here. It's likely the "panic" and talk of "maintenance mode" were factors in the decision to move on another expansion. It signals to players that they are continuing to invest in this game's future. We can argue semantics, but that's what this is ultimately about.

Unfortunately, that decision did not come free from consequence and does not resolve every issue caused by the mistake it seeks to address. If they had remained committed all along, they would have been working on this expansion from the moment PoF released. For whatever reason (I have my theories on the matter!) that didn't happen.

As a result they don't have the luxury of taking their time, but expectations are high. They need a win on this. I don't feel it's alarmist to make that observation. However, I'm concerned that, in their rush to push out the next expansion, they're providing too little support to the game we're playing right now (see promised PvP balance and subsequent admissions that they lack the resources to do it as well as arguably low-effort story releases). If player feedback means anything at all, I see some value in making these opinions known.

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The original Living World was more engaging, took place in already existing maps and altered them significantly. Although some of the patches were quite small, the content was more immersive in my opinion. As good as it sounded and worked during Season 1, it was just too expensive. With LS3, they began to bind LW content directly to specific new maps, expanding the world-map. This turned out to be an improvement at first, but came with a high price. As you say in the RL, you cannot spend the same coin twice. Holding the balance between mapping, events, story-telling and side-quests turned out to be horribly difficult. Some maps ended up with wide barren-areas, like the water-area of both Ember Bay and Draconis Mons. Certain sections were scrapped during the process, like that huge section of Istan. We had great maps with barely any story-instances at all, mostly at the end of LW4. Sometimes the balance was almost perfect.

In the long run, Living World worked out for GW2. Its reputation might be a little better nowadays if they did not hype everything and promised unrealistic release-cadences one after another. However I think, that content is a lot more difficult to create and to balance than an Expansion. You have to deal with a lot of limitations and have to find the optimal balance. Not to forget the time-pressure, with the audience prying the next episode out of your hands, right after you released the previous one. The drama on the forums if the release delays by 20 minutes or more ... xD. Then they release it too early and have to fix all the nasty things under even higher pressure. My highest level of respect for the people who have to do that.

If Living World was developed as expansions, released in full seasons after 2-3 years of development, they would have been of higher quality for sure. The game is more than 8 years old now. We are still on the market, still considered an viable option for many people. The concept seems to work out.

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@"Firebeard.1746" said:Like in general the content just doesn't pull people in, like it lacks hype and I just don't get why. I finally got around to doing the Elegy Armor collection a month or so ago and I feel like that was one of my most powerful story experiences ever in an MMO.

Getting skins equals a "powerful story experience"? Okay. ;) I have to admit, though, that Jahai was definitely a good release and I enjoyed it thoroughly, as with most of Season 4. :)

The reason why Living World content is often perceived with a lot of negativity is its inconsistency in quality and quantity. Not all LW releases are of equally high quality, as shown by the recent "Truce" release (and some others in the past). Quality of story, map, map contents, meta events, and achievements greatly vary between releases, and it's rare that all those are given a thumbs-up in a single release.

That's why I am an advocate for expansions rather than LW releases. See my signature. I prefer a polished, consistent release with a satisfying conclusion at the end, where you can also play ar your own pace (and don't have to wait to be spoon-fed) and cannot be disappointed by such discrepancies in content and quality within.

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I enjoy the living story for the most part, but as some mention there are noticeable dips in quality at certain points. I'm always grateful for more story content, which has always been the main draw of games for me. There are definitely changes to the story I would make, but the game has entertained me since 2012 so I'm in it for the long haul.

What is more disappointing is learning about cut content, cause usually that more than anything accents the weaker episodes in ls.

Icebrood Saga felt pretty strong to me until now, and though I am disappointed how piecemeal the content drops will be for the remainder, I did like the character interactions in the DRMs. Interesting conflicts between characters. If there's more of that then I will enjoy that aspect of Champions. The things that really get to me happen when ANet gives us consequences or hard choices they immediately back away from, or give really sudden heel turns/reveals. Personally did not like S3 setting up Lazarus and then revealing it to be Balthazar, or recently when Jormag says the balance is fake and no one contests it (of course it remains to be seen if this is part of some bigger magical manipulation on Jormag's part).

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