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Swampland fractal wisp puzzle


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@"Cyninja.2954" said:Perfect example of making things easier leading to players never bothering to "learn" or improve at something. Back when the timer was 30s across the board, players were faced with having to "learn" how to do this mechanic.Which, at the time when we still had "chains" of fractals instead of individual ones, led to two groups of players. First knew how to do it, so they rerolled until they got swamp as fist. Second didn't, so they rerolled if they got swamp at first.

It's the same problem as, for example, jumping puzzle in shiverpeaks strike.

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@Astralporing.1957 said:

@"Cyninja.2954" said:Perfect example of making things easier leading to players never bothering to "learn" or improve at something. Back when the timer was 30s across the board, players were faced with having to "learn" how to do this mechanic.Which, at the time when we still had "chains" of fractals instead of individual ones, led to two groups of players. First knew how to do it, so they rerolled until they got swamp as fist. Second didn't, so they rerolled
if
they got swamp at first.

It's the same problem as, for example, jumping puzzle in shiverpeaks strike.

Players intentionally skipping a fractal because they can't be bothered to learn how to run it just proves my point (and in the thousands of fractals I ran I've never had a group, neither then, before, nor now, where players intentionally skipped swamp). Also there was a time before chaining fractals where that too was not possible.

Given how fractal rewards got changed and do not require a full set of 4, people are free to skip swamp and forgo part of the reward if they can't be bothered with improving at this part of the game.

Working as intended I'd say.

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@Astralporing.1957 said:

@"Cyninja.2954" said:Perfect example of making things easier leading to players never bothering to "learn" or improve at something. Back when the timer was 30s across the board, players were faced with having to "learn" how to do this mechanic.Which, at the time when we still had "chains" of fractals instead of individual ones, led to two groups of players. First knew how to do it, so they rerolled until they got swamp as fist. Second didn't, so they rerolled
if
they got swamp at first.

It's the same problem as, for example, jumping puzzle in shiverpeaks strike.

I knew molten facility skip was a thing because sometimes it was faster to do 2 fractals again instead of doing the 40m clown car. It was also a giant fiesta if nobody had a thief. Never heard of the swamp skip

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@Nephalem.8921 said:I knew molten facility skip was a thing because sometimes it was faster to do 2 fractals again instead of doing the 40m clown car. It was also a giant fiesta if nobody had a thief. Never heard of the swamp skipIt was mostly done in the casual groups. Nobody wanted to get stuck for next 30 minutes on wisp running part. It was completely normal for this part alone to take a significant part of the whole run. And no, i'm not even really exagerrating with those 30 minutes. Had this happening to me once.And since all you had to do was quit and restart (since swamp, if it rolled, it always rolled as first in the chain) it was extremely easy to do.

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I don't often have trouble with it but I do find it to be quite an annoying and ultimately irrelevant part of the fractal that mostly just wastes your time at the start.

I'd be fine with removing it.. although it would absolutely need to be replaced with something else, not just removed entirely.

Off the top of my head i'm thinking that the best thing to remove would be the shifting maze part of the area and have that Giant Drake become etherial and roam around the area becoming the first "boss" of the fractal.The 3 Wisps would spawn like normal and have to be placed in the stumps like normal to make the boss vulnerable to damage just like final boss so you'd still get a much easier tutorial battle on the mechanics before fighting the Bloomhunger at the end of the fractal.

But the whole running the wisps through the traps and maze bit.. yeah I don't care about that at all and would not complain if it was replaced with something better.Hell leave the traps around the area too and have the achievement become defeat the Drake without setting off a trap, that would be a lot more fun and challenging than the current get the Wisp to the stump without triggering a trap achievement.

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@Westenev.5289 said:

@medivh.4725 said:At least create some short cuts or extend the timings or something. I literally hate having to do swampland and the players kept leaving and leaving. I hated it.

There are tons of shortcuts. It used to be 30sec even at level 1. Some classes can even solo it.

They aren't the sort of shortcuts you stumble upon for a miraculous last second save. They're the sort of shortcuts you know through research and practice, and can feel kinda buggy with the weird collision, which kinda takes the fun out of it imho.

Wha? Nah man. Jumping up the roots is intended and doesn't look buggy at all.

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@medivh.4725 said:The furthest node always a problem. Many times none of the 5 in group have swift. Why don't you add a Swift interaction.Remove some wood logs open up some fast ways. I am playing at T3 and it is always problem

You do know that 1 of the skills on the guns laying around in the fractal give switftness to people infront of the shooter right?

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I'd be really disappointed if it got removed. It rewards players for paying attention and mastering terrain/movement sensibilities. All of the patterns that are required to do the T3/T4 wisps can be learned on T1/T2 if you reset the nodes often enough. Players can also take innate swiftness/stun-breaks and incorporate them into their builds because there's a mistlock singularity before Mossman. I actually really enjoyed learning all these little niche tips/trick to get more comfortably through content.

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@Laila Lightness.8742 said:Is it really neccesery to exist. Alot pugs i played seems to be unable to sync it. Wouldnt it be easier to remove it and make a path to tread through to the secondery boss

@Mad Queen Malafide.7512 said:The wisp puzzle is super simple and yet I constantly run into T3 groups that still don't get it. I don't think I have ever found it fun when my team does know what to do. And for that reason alone, I would vote in favor of removing it (and replacing it with something that IS fun).

i.m.o “Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler.”Try to imagine whereby a Junior is having difficulties with a subject in studies. Imo removing the subject from the exams is not the appropriate approach since they will lose the chance to gain knowledge.

By removing it; Yes, will make it easier but it will also removed a learning experience to players. Experienced players might find it unnecessary since they've already perfected/memorized it but new players will not and might find difficulties later on when situation occurs.Instead of removing, maybe suggest to make the traps more visible for struggling players etc. or other better suggestions for improvement and quality.

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@Eramonster.2718 said:By removing it; Yes, will make it easier but it will also removed a learning experience to players.What learing experience? Of jumping onto tree branches? What would that even be useful for?

Experienced players might find it unnecessary since they've already perfected/memorized it but new players will not and might find difficulties later on when situation occurs.No, it is a completely unnecessary experience for anyone. The things it might teach you are not useful at all outside of this one specific encounter.

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@Astralporing.1957 said:

@"Eramonster.2718" said:By removing it; Yes, will make it easier but it will also removed a learning experience to players.What learing experience? Of jumping onto tree branches? What would that even be useful for?

Experienced players might find it unnecessary since they've already perfected/memorized it but new players will not and might find difficulties later on when situation occurs.No, it is a completely unnecessary experience for anyone. The things it might teach you are not useful at all outside of this one specific encounter.

So:

  • adapting to a situation or challenge via say taking movement speed skills,
  • using terrain advantageously,
  • slotting condition removal and stun breaks,
  • memorizing terrain and traps,
  • paying attention to enemy behavior and attacks,
  • using things like portal if available to assist

are overall useless skills. Good to know. Those are all things which would make this challenge negligible or help in succeeding at it. That is of course only obvious to those who go beyond "duh, I no like running stuff, I not learn anything here" in their thought process but take into account what skills benefit this encounters success and how players are encouraged to figure those things out.

If you want to judge if something is of value in teaching, you have to actually look at what skills the challenge might encourage and force players out of their comfort zone. Under that view point, the beginning of swamp and the immediate feedback of failure is one of the best designed challenges in this game. It is both flexible enough to not require players make all those adjustments, yet at the same time requires at least some of them for success.

The fact that this encounter is designed in a specific way has absolutely no bearing on the possibility of players taking away a lesson or improving at the game in other areas. That is dependent on which skills are being encouraged, and as mentioned, those are plenty.

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@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Eramonster.2718 said:By removing it; Yes, will make it easier but it will also removed a learning experience to players.What learing experience? Of jumping onto tree branches? What would that even be useful for?

Experienced players might find it unnecessary since they've already perfected/memorized it but new players will not and might find difficulties later on when situation occurs.No, it is a completely unnecessary experience for anyone. The things it might teach you are not useful at all outside of this one specific encounter.

So:
  • adapting to a situation or challenge via say taking movement speed skills,
  • using terrain advantageously,
  • slotting condition removal and stun breaks,
  • memorizing terrain and traps,
  • paying attention to enemy behavior and attacks,
  • using things like portal if available to assist

are overall useless skills.You are way overgeneralizing here. For the most part, the only thing someone is going to learn there is the exact path they should run through. Nothing more. WHich, obviously, is of no use outside this specific instance.
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@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Eramonster.2718 said:By removing it; Yes, will make it easier but it will also removed a learning experience to players.What learing experience? Of jumping onto tree branches? What would that even be useful for?

Experienced players might find it unnecessary since they've already perfected/memorized it but new players will not and might find difficulties later on when situation occurs.No, it is a completely unnecessary experience for anyone. The things it might teach you are not useful at all outside of this one specific encounter.

So:
  • adapting to a situation or challenge via say taking movement speed skills,
  • using terrain advantageously,
  • slotting condition removal and stun breaks,
  • memorizing terrain and traps,
  • paying attention to enemy behavior and attacks,
  • using things like portal if available to assist

are overall useless skills.You are way overgeneralizing here. For the most part, the only thing someone is going to learn there is the exact path they should run through. Nothing more. WHich, obviously, is of no use outside this specific instance.

the exact path works ONLY if you use some of the things I mentioned. Try running over trees and running into traps.

You are essentially aruging from the perspective of someone who already HAS mastered this challenge. Suffice to say, if people have mastered using the terrain to their advantage AND avoiding all traps, they've already acquired some knowledge how to approach challenges in this game.

Even then it is beneficial to take condi cleanse, avoid enemies and take swiftness.

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@"Wolfb.7025" said:Its hard, yes, the difficulty step betwen t2 and t3 is surreal.

Said this, this is the charm of the fractal, My only complain is that the game looks so dark without reshade and you can's see the beartraps, which screws you over if you step on one.

Takes time to master, and a lot of group coordination. People underestimate the Invigorator Rifle Prototypes and its a good option if you don't have supporting skills to help people carrying the whisps.

Is reshade an extra for GW2? I have no end of difficulty seeing the traps in this fractal, even with post-processing turned off.

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