Dagger Problem

[Flumek.9043]

@XECOR.2814 said:

Great TLDR.Dagger mainhand becomes revenants sword offhand. Reliability in pvp goes up from 1% to 99% and boom, suddenly its a meta weapon and necros have healing without a babysitter...Only problem is Anet cant afford programing work on animation and functionality changes, its number tweaks 1x per year in these times...

[Dadnir.5038]

@"XECOR.2814" said:For example the current problem with dagger is not being able to land damage as enemy are always out of range which also results into not being able to use its lf regen effects most of the times. Devs knew abt this since the beginning so they gave a decent immob duration to us which helped keeping up with the enemy. But now the game is much faster and cleanse and mobility skills are basically spammed so something is needed to keep it at the same level as before so it can at least function the way it was supposed to. Imo if they just add the teleport behind the target on #3 so we can stick to target more all the problems will be solved, you will land your #3 from range which will port you in melee range and immob enemy and you would be able to land autos. It wont be too op because it is small range, targeted ability and just by the fact that it ports you to enemy which can be devastating for a necro if they are multiple enemies and not to mention it has long cast time. The new added effect will also act as a good reason to take dagger trait in blood magic.

True, and that's what I mean by an inbuilt lack of "gap management".

However, you'll have a part of the community that also think that the weapon's issue is that it's close range and would benefit from the ability to open the gap instead of closing it. Both point of view aren't wrong, but they go against the necromancer's tenets unless it's a "pulling" effect or a "fear" effect.

While there is also the more localized (PvE) issue of the defiance system that basically nullify debilitating conditions and hard CC without impacting boons like aegis or stability, impacting survivability and thus efficiency more heavily than a few extra health points.

A gap closer on skill#3 would be neat and probably reach OPness in sPvP/WvW, but is it a good solution for dagger? Wouldn't it be at odd with the necromancer's core tenets which favor a management of the gap through conditions (which is how dagger#3 work right now)? One could very well argue that restricting the AA chain to a single target and giving it 900 range is a "better" solution, complementing nicely skill#2 and #3 (not that it isn't an equally dangerous idea). One could also argue that the issue is the off-hands which support poorly the main-hand dagger gameplay. And lastly, one could argue that the necromancer can always choose to take spectral grasp to bring it's foes into melee range or spectral ring to shoo them back if it was truly the issue.

There is no true answer to the issue of the dagger main-hand. There is a lot of possibilities but are they the right thing to do? It's always arguable.

[Anchoku.8142]

We can discuss MH dagger's strengths, weaknesses and purpose all we want but Arenanet has to recognize it has a problem, that the problem is severe enough to warrant a change, that the scope of change is manageable in some new balance update and that there is time and funding planned.

There may be no chance of a patch for it before the next expac and even then MH dagger may not be changed.

[Obtena.7952]

@XECOR.2814 said:For example the current problem with dagger is not being able to land damage as enemy are always out of range which also results into not being able to use its lf regen effects most of the times.

... and the solution to that is making weapon/skill choices and weapon swapping to get the effects from other weapons/skils that make up for those deficiencies. Nothing needs to change on dagger to address any of the issues you have listed BECAUSE the intended mechanism for dealing with those deficiencies IS choice. If dagger is SO BAD that it is not useful in PVP/WVW ... then the answer isn't by default that Anet needs to do something to make dagger good specific to those modes. even if we all conclude that IS the answer ... how the dagger is changed is significantly impacted by it's theme or how it is intended to NOT cover the concepts of other weapons. In otherwords ... have no doubt that whatever is done, meaningful choice will be the target ... and dagger, whatever it's theme, will not degrade the idea that weapon swapping and choices are intended mechanics for players to solve their game problems.

All that is to say ... if the target for swapping and choices is already fulfilled by the current weapon configurations ... not much reason for Anet to change it because of deficiencies to begin with.

I think one of the few valid arguments to 'fix' dagger (and not specifically for any game mode) is that Necro's don't have many weapon choices to begin with ... so the theme of the whole class has diminished potential because of weapon concepts aimed at questionably effective strategies.

[Teratus.2859]

@"Obtena.7952" said:What I mean is you aren't doing better with Dagger 2 than you are with simply moving/dodging to avoid damage ... that's NOT true of barriers/minions. I mean, you can disagree ... but we all know the best sustain builds you are going to use on necro aren't using Dagger 2 otherwise we wouldn't be talking here. The fact that no one source of lifesteal is enough is just one of many factors that demonstrates dagger 2 is the worst sustain technique. We already know minions and barriers are going to be WAY better than what lifesteal gives you ... In fact, I can literally use either one by itself to tank ... Lifesteal still needs another tactic to be successful. Even blinds are better than dagger 2 in a sustain build.

I think one thing we differ on here is the distinction of minions and lifesteal, I regard them as one in the same since minions are one of the biggest sources of lifesteal healing.You can use them without that ability sure and they have some really good defensive utility through Rise! and aggro manipulation, but if you are using Minions as a form of sustain healing then you are still relying on lifesteal for that.I've had a few debates in the past with people who think lifesteal is trash in this game lolSometimes minions get's used as a better sustain mechanic than lifesteal even though they use the same mechanic to sustain you.

As for Dagger 2 specifically, perhaps it's better for me to say that dagger 2 is more of a heal than it is a sustain skill, given that it's not a constant thing you can keep using due to cooldowns.It does technically have more in common with a dedicated heal skill in that regard even though it still relies on lifesteal to heal you which is a sustain mechanic.I've used it pretty much in that way for years, saving me from having to sacrifice the Blood Fiend to heal, pretty much making Dagger 2 the dedicated heal skill in my build. A pro of that is never needing to sacrifice the blood fiend which helps keeps my lifesteal sustain from minons as high as possible.

Main thing I disagree with though is blinds.Blind can be a good condition in some situations but since the addition of Defiance bars pretty much all soft CC conditions have become practically useless in a lot of PvE content.Anything with a break bar cannot be blinded or soft CC'd, the conditions still hit them to buff damage modifiers on traits etc but the effects of those conditions they are completely immune to.So relying on blinds just doesn't work very well these days, which is a shame because there were some really cool blind builds a long time ago that were fun and creative.

Let's take a step back though ... the complain is that dagger 2 isn't good because it can be evaded or blocked and my point is that dagger can't be made 'good' because of it's concept in the first place ... If you think dagger is 'great' for a specific aspect of the game not related to the complaint, then that's a moot point anyways.

Basically, we are arguing a point that isn't really relevant to the thread and I'm a responsible for that as you. If we want to be on topic, then I would say there isn't a fix for dagger for the complaint made based on simply adding something or tweaking a number.

Evaded yes, blocked.. ironically that's both a yes and no lolDagger 2 will steal heal you through a block but it won't do damage to the target.. so it's kind of both on that one.

I get what your saying though and I don't deny the points you're making, actually I agree with most of what you say :)

A lot of the complaints i've seen about Dagger tend to fall into the same situation and the only way they can "fix" the dagger in the way these complaints tend to want is exactly as you said, by changing the entire concept of the weapon.

When I see people calling for stuff like that It tends to come across to me that people just don't know how to use the weapon and play to it's strengths it has which imo are it's ability to generate quick life force and health.A lot of people tend to want Dagger to be a Power DPS weapon, others want it to be a fast condition weapon.. but I think it should remain as a resource gathering weapon.I do admit that there could definitely be improvements to the weapon though, specially to make it viable in competitive modes where it is atrociously bad these days.But I don't want the concept to change, it's fine in that regard it just needs to be improved a bit here and there to make it better and more defined.

Since i've used the weapon for 6 years and few others tend to defend it much I find myself a little compelled to join these discussions and try and defend little old stabby lolI think if more people used it the way I do they might enjoy it more but everyone plays this game in their own way and that's one of the pros of this game is that for the most part you can ^^

I'm just going to quote something really relevant I said earlier in this thread almost 2 years ago that is still as relevant now as it was then:

This is really simple; dagger is a sustain weapon; it has the most LF regen, a direct life siphon and some kind of weird corrupting immobilize ... you tell me where that could POSSIBLY fit in the meta where competitive PVE is about long-term damage output and team sharing, where PVP/WVW is about burst damage, team sharing and CC. It doesn't, and nothing you could do with that weapon would ever make it fit 'good' in those game modes without reworking it completely right from the concept.

Again you're not wrong, it doesn't fit well in those modes at all, specially in competitive where the problems are so much worse due to how obvious the attacks are.

Outside of being able to act as an almost un-killable safety net for my party in some content like t4 fractals there really isn't much benefit the Dagger offers outside of some boonstrip.Perhaps one solution to that would be to allow Dagger 2 to provide some AoE party healing to nearby allies, that could certainly be useful and help buff Necros capabilities as a healer spec, Transfusion alone already is a nice 4-4.5k aoe heal so Dagger 2 could be a nice little buff to compliment that.I've seen others suggest that as well and if it's done right it might just work.. though it would have to ignore minions otherwise MM's would become much more tanky.

[Obtena.7952]

@Teratus.2859 said:

All very reasonable. I have to admit ... I do think there is a push to make dagger interesting by Anet recognizing they have not 'fixed' Quickening Thirst to have a non-dagger benefit; recall there was a transition to change some weapon-focused traits to be useful outside the specific weapons. If Anet gave QT that treatment, I doubt it would fix dagger problems ... but it would make it a path to make it more of ... something. What that something is ... still debatable. But if the focus is the trait fix vs. the dagger fix ... it's more plausible because of the transition that was happening.

[KrHome.1920]

Haha thanks for bringing that thread up. I read my feb 2018 posting and had to laugh. Incredible how the ton of revealed broken PoF builds and endless failed skill reworks (face target requirement for dagger2, warhown 5 rework...) have messed up the game since then. The 30% damage reduction was the final nail in the coffin for mainhand dagger: Facetanking the opponent for 2 seconds to deal 3k damage - incredible.

[Fipmip.7219]

after continuing with dagger and trying to build around its current concept, my proposal is to allow dagger to put more non-direct damage conditions on the opponent, or rework its current power alignment to be a poison/conditions one. the reason for this being to help top off stacks of carapace gained from combining putrid defense with occasional bursts from reaper's shroud. this will greatly boost dagger's cost effectiveness when healing/siphoning due to each point of health being coddled with boosted toughness and 100% protection. although i think someone's gonna have to delete blood bank.

[Flumek.9043]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@XECOR.2814 said:For example the current problem with dagger is not being able to land damage as enemy are always out of range which also results into not being able to use its lf regen effects most of the times.

... and the solution to that is making weapon/skill choices and weapon swapping to get the effects from other weapons/skils that make up for those deficiencies. Nothing needs to change on dagger to address any of the issues you have listed BECAUSE the intended mechanism for dealing with those deficiencies IS choice. If dagger is SO BAD that it is not useful in PVP/WVW ... then the answer isn't by default that Anet needs to do something to make dagger good specific to those modes. even if we all conclude that IS the answer ... how the dagger is changed is significantly impacted by it's theme or how it is intended to NOT cover the concepts of other weapons. In otherwords ... have no doubt that whatever is done, meaningful choice will be the target ... and dagger, whatever it's theme, will not degrade the idea that weapon swapping and choices are intended mechanics for players to solve their game problems.

All that is to say ... if the target for swapping and choices is already fulfilled by the current weapon configurations ... not much reason for Anet to change it because of deficiencies to begin with.

I think one of the few valid arguments to 'fix' dagger (and not specifically for any game mode) is that Necro's don't have many weapon choices to begin with ... so the theme of the whole class has diminished potential because of weapon concepts aimed at questionably effective strategies.

true,just problem that necro has least weapons available.2012 was rushed as well for those who remember :)

[XECOR.2814]

@Flumek.9043 said:

@XECOR.2814 said:

Great TLDR.Dagger mainhand becomes revenants sword offhand. Reliability in pvp goes up from 1% to 99% and boom, suddenly its a meta weapon and necros have healing without a babysitter...Only problem is Anet cant afford programing work on animation and functionality changes, its number tweaks 1x per year in these times...

No it doesnt. Why? Because first of all it will be small range. Secondly most of the ports like these where you port behind enemy require them to be in range. So its not like you can port through walls long range like rev or port away by targeting a mob in wvw.

[Flumek.9043]

@XECOR.2814 said:

@Flumek.9043 said:

@XECOR.2814 said:

Great TLDR.Dagger mainhand becomes revenants sword offhand. Reliability in pvp goes up from 1% to 99% and boom, suddenly its a meta weapon and necros have healing without a babysitter...Only problem is Anet cant afford programing work on animation and functionality changes, its number tweaks 1x per year in these times...

No it doesnt. Why? Because first of all it will be small range. Secondly most of the ports like these where you port behind enemy require them to be in range. So its not like you can port through walls long range like rev or port away by targeting a mob in wvw.

pardon, didnt mean literally, more joking.Just as an... "idea" or "concept" or whatever fancy word arenabois use.Cz right now their feeling for dagger is "stand still and dps golem each other to death".

[Nabbut.7480]

Dagger mainhand is great versus mobs and veterans in open world because it is 2 targets, ranged self-heal to open with while running to target and have a barrier with Blood Bank, and immobilize to use on running away enemies like bandits and centaur archers.Dagger offhand is also good at early levels to have a condi transfer until you get something else for that.A friendly reminder: Anet is highly likely to know better than you.

[Obtena.7952]

Let's be clear ... dagger ISN'T great because you can run at a OW mob with a barrier because of Blood Bank. I can ALREADY do that with Scourge and NOT have to trait blood bank while using dagger #2 for that. If anything, that illustrates how not great it is. It's actually hot garbage because it's pretty useless to open with a skill that can heal you that doesn't because you are at full HP ... just to get a barrier instead. It's the biggest nothing in the game ... and it costs you a dedicated weapon and a GM trait to do it.