I have got enough!

[Veprovina.4876]

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@hammu.1752 said:IF this means one annoying mirage less in wvw roaming scene then i wish you the best luck and good time & life who ever you are! And if not, still.

@Leonidrex.5649 said:wvw -> worst class in the game

AAAAHHAAHHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

name a worse class then mesmer for wvw then?

Thief.It has no real purpose outside of harassing roamers. Its ability to zoom around the map taking camps is matched by any condi build with a warclaw.. Its damage is easily countered in zergs by stacking. Scrapper provides better stealth. Ranger has better immobs. Etc...

I guess it can hide indefinitely in keeps better than Mesmer because it has perma stealth, and it can also portal 5 people in. So fun waiting for people to come help take the keep so you dont have dps an iron hided mob by yourself. They are welcome to take that role from us.

edit: forgot to mention sentries/target painters/target painter traps revealing you.

exept DE is one of the best roamers, and in zergs mesmer is equally kitten to thief, its competition between thiefs stealth stacking + shadow portaling into keeps vs mesmer focus

Great, enjoy being "one of the best roamers" and having little purpose in a zerg.

Mesmers are used quite often in zergs for ranged cc, boon strip, and illusion of life. And yes, for veil for when you don't have enough scrappers/blasters in each party.

There is no competition between thieves and mesmers in a zerg. A thief is probably fighting with rangers to have a spot. And I don't see why you would bring a thief over a ranger. Ranger has better damage, better lockdown, and can also bring a smoke field.

Hiding in stealth in structures is not participating in a zerg. It is PvE. And the portal only works on five so you wouldn't be able to use it with a zerg without getting a mesmer in.

So the thief gets to enjoy waiting around. While the mesmer gets to play in the zerg. And then build swap to a PvE build to get the entire zerg in and give out 10+ alacrity and quickness.

I agree, it's kinda unfair to compare the two professions.And not all professions are for everything. That's ok. Thieves don't do well in zergs, but they're excellent roamers and with the protal, they can take objectives with a small group. The same way you wouldn't bring a Mirage into a zerg, Chrono is better in every way there. And that's the tradeoff. Both thief elites are unparalleled at roaming, while Mesmers can choose both, Chrono for Zerg, and Mirage for roaming, but a mirage, even if they return the dodge, will never rival a thief at roaming. That's perfectly fine to me, like, i wouldn't use a Chrono for roaming, there's other professions for that.

[draxynnic.3719]

@Veprovina.4876 said:

@draxynnic.3719 said:

@Veprovina.4876 said:

@draxynnic.3719 said:

@Veprovina.4876 said:

@draxynnic.3719 said:

@Veprovina.4876 said:

@draxynnic.3719 said:

@Veprovina.4876 said:

@draxynnic.3719 said:

@Veprovina.4876 said:Healing well too, removes a condition on the 3rd pulse.

That's not how Well of Eternity works. The caster gets a heal initially when they cast the well, then each pulse removes a condition from allies in the area, and when it ends it provides an area heal. Which can still be a little clunky, but I think part of the idea behind wells is to benefit from Continuum Split ending before the well does.

Ah so it removes conditions with each pulse? That's nice. I didn't notice it working like that in WvW much, but it's cool if it's like that. Still, i think the big area heal that's at the end should happen first, then the rest. Kind of reverse. And with All's Well that ends well trait, the heling should happen at the beginning.We'll see what Anet has in store for mesmers though so...

I think there's two elements in play here:

First, as I mentioned, it's intended to work with Continuum Split. Put a well or two on top of where you're going to return to, end the split before the wells finish, and you get those back-loaded benefits almost for free, and can recast those wells to get them

again

afterwards. If you front-load the effects, they go away when you end Continuum Split.

Second, the general principle with the chronomancer is that it's

supposed

to be able to survive for a few seconds before the well goes off. Losing Distortion certainly hurts in this respect, but there's still shield, Well of Precognition, CC, and blocks on core mesmer available to helps survive for a few seconds before the well completes.

It's certainly true that making the wells more front-loaded would lower their skill floor, but it might lower their skill ceiling as well by removing their synergy with Continuum Split.

That's a good argument for why wells work this way, but i think you're considering it more from a PvE perspective.Which is fine, nothing wrong about that, but Anet made more modes than just PvE, and whatever they design has to work in all of them.

Now you try predicting where to Continuum split and put well so they can heal your squad sub-party and yourself and give everyone their benefits in a squad of 50 people mid fighting another squad of 50 people. Even if you place them predictively, there's no telling if in a split second your commander will decide to move in another direction in response to whatever the enemy squad is doing.Doesn't work anymore now does it? No other profession has to deal with that.

Now, Anet is balancing the skills and traits per game mode now, as they should, and i agree, having front loaded effects on wells would lower the skill floor and ceilling considerably in PvE. But in WvW? It would just make them

work

. But in PvE, they're fine.

Maybe in WvW if they replace Continuum split with Distortion, or just add distortion it would be better. In WvW you mostly use Continuum split to get an extra cast of 1 thing because you'll never have enough clones to shatter, they die instantly, so you can never use Continuum split's entire duration. In addition to that. Moving to a previous location with Continuum Split is undesirable because you need to stay on tag, that's where all the heals, clenses and boons are. If you even use CS fully powered, you get off tag and you'll probably die.

PvE, sPvP, small-scale WvW even. Large-scale WvW was acknowledged a long time ago as being such an extreme mode that they'd probably never really be able to fully balance it, just hit the things that were serious problems.

Well they already have the tools available, i mean, they can set each skill to behave differently per game mode. They just need to put in the work. :smile:

They only change the numbers, not the base functionality, though. They're not going to make a skill front-loaded in WvW and back-loaded in other modes.

I think there's a degree to which chronomancer wells just aren't really designed for supporting zergs.

They've already changed how certain skills work several times. Bubble used to follow warriors, now it's static, it used to be charged, now it's instant cast. Mirage had 2 dodges, now it has only 1. Traits had mechanic changes, not just numerical a lot of times. Clearly the tools to change the skills are there but the fact that they're only changing numbers is just showing lazy balancing in form of a band aid. They

can

change the wells if they want, but that would require more work than just changing the numbers on skills. The whole mesmer profession needs a rework, and they

can

do it, but they either don't know what to change and how, or they're lazy or something else, i don't know. I doubt they're lazy, so they probably don't know what to do with mesmers and just leave them nerfed to the ground so no one complains. Which is a big slap on the face to the mesmer community and they should treat us better.

They can change how skills work, but

only

if they want to go the whole way and change how the skill works in

all

modes.

They won't have a skill work differently in different modes

(apart from number changes). This is something they've been clear about, multiple times. They'll change the numbers in a split, but they won't change the functionality, because they want someone moving from one mode to another to be able to know what their skills are going to do (as opposed to GW1, which did have some skill splits where the functionality was completely changed and which caused confusion as a result).

So it's either leaving wells as they are, which is having an interesting interaction with Continuum Split at the cost of being a bit awkward in some WvW situations. Or they could toss out the baby with the bathwater and rework the wells for the sake of WvW and break that interaction in

all

game modes, something which PvE chronomancers and the few sPvP chronomancers still around might well regard as a nerf. They are

not

going to have wells that have a big effect when the well expires in some modes, while in other modes they have that effect immediately when the well is placed. Skill splits between modes only change the numbers, not the functionality.

Changing wells is literally a number change.

PvE 1st 2 hits hit for 5, last hit 10.WvW, first hit hits for 10, last 2 for 5.

Totally confusing am I right? Most people wouldnt know the difference because PvE players almost never touch WvW, and those who play WvW use different builds in PvE.

Only the numbers need to change, I'm not sure why you're blowing this so out of proportion and defending anet.

It's their game. They can do whatever they want to it, theres no real reason that they can't change something. Its only like you said, they dont want to. But it might be needed to balance the profession and get it back in line with how other professions feel and how strong they are.

They

can

change a simple mechanic numerically, or even the functionality, which btw, is also just a numerical change as far as engine is concerned, they dont have to write a whole new code just to switch well pulses around.

And the skill would feel different in both modes. But that's the point. If something needs changing to get In line with other professions, then no excuse is valid enough to not at least try.

But this goes beyond just wells, no need to get stuck on that discussion longer than necessary.

Except that this isn't the way chronomancer wells work.

Chronomancer wells have one effect when they're ticking down, and another, usually completely different, effect when they finish:

Eternity heals the caster for a bit when cast, removes condis as it ticks, and heals in an area when it ends.Action damages and slows enemies as it ticks, and grants quickness in an area when it ends.Calamity damages, cripples, and weakens as it ticks, and deals large damage when it ends.Precog stunbreaks the caster when cast, grants aegis as it ticks, and refills endurance when it ends.Recall damages and chills as it ticks, and grants alacrity when it ends.Gravity damages and controls as it ticks, and deals large damage when it ends.

The only wells there where you can move some of the effects from the end effect to the ticks, as you propose, are Calamity and Gravity, since both the end effect and the ticks deal damage. So you could, theoretically, move some of the damage from the end effect to the earlier ticks. However, both of these wells are also designed to make it harder for the enemy to escape the well before it explodes. Theoretically, you could also move some of the heal from Eternity from the area heal when it finishes to the chronomancers personal heal when cast, but this would also make the skill more 'selfish', since the initial heal only affects the caster.

With all the other wells, the effect of the final tick is something that isn't on the initial ticks at all. Moving some of the effect of the final ticks onto the initial ticks wouldn't simply be a numbers reshuffle, it'd be changing the functionality of the skill. Which ArenaNet doesn't do as a split between modes.

Honestly, at this stage, I'm pretty sure you just don't understand the skills you're talking about and are arguing out of ignorance. You're claiming that most people wouldn't notice the changes you're recommending, but since you don't seem to know how chronomancer wells actually work to begin with, I think your claim says more about your own level of knowledge than the typical player's.

[Veprovina.4876]

@draxynnic.3719 said:

@Veprovina.4876 said:

@draxynnic.3719 said:

@Veprovina.4876 said:

@draxynnic.3719 said:

@Veprovina.4876 said:

@draxynnic.3719 said:

@Veprovina.4876 said:

@draxynnic.3719 said:

@Veprovina.4876 said:

@draxynnic.3719 said:

@Veprovina.4876 said:Healing well too, removes a condition on the 3rd pulse.

That's not how Well of Eternity works. The caster gets a heal initially when they cast the well, then each pulse removes a condition from allies in the area, and when it ends it provides an area heal. Which can still be a little clunky, but I think part of the idea behind wells is to benefit from Continuum Split ending before the well does.

Ah so it removes conditions with each pulse? That's nice. I didn't notice it working like that in WvW much, but it's cool if it's like that. Still, i think the big area heal that's at the end should happen first, then the rest. Kind of reverse. And with All's Well that ends well trait, the heling should happen at the beginning.We'll see what Anet has in store for mesmers though so...

I think there's two elements in play here:

First, as I mentioned, it's intended to work with Continuum Split. Put a well or two on top of where you're going to return to, end the split before the wells finish, and you get those back-loaded benefits almost for free, and can recast those wells to get them

again

afterwards. If you front-load the effects, they go away when you end Continuum Split.

Second, the general principle with the chronomancer is that it's

supposed

to be able to survive for a few seconds before the well goes off. Losing Distortion certainly hurts in this respect, but there's still shield, Well of Precognition, CC, and blocks on core mesmer available to helps survive for a few seconds before the well completes.

It's certainly true that making the wells more front-loaded would lower their skill floor, but it might lower their skill ceiling as well by removing their synergy with Continuum Split.

That's a good argument for why wells work this way, but i think you're considering it more from a PvE perspective.Which is fine, nothing wrong about that, but Anet made more modes than just PvE, and whatever they design has to work in all of them.

Now you try predicting where to Continuum split and put well so they can heal your squad sub-party and yourself and give everyone their benefits in a squad of 50 people mid fighting another squad of 50 people. Even if you place them predictively, there's no telling if in a split second your commander will decide to move in another direction in response to whatever the enemy squad is doing.Doesn't work anymore now does it? No other profession has to deal with that.

Now, Anet is balancing the skills and traits per game mode now, as they should, and i agree, having front loaded effects on wells would lower the skill floor and ceilling considerably in PvE. But in WvW? It would just make them

work

. But in PvE, they're fine.

Maybe in WvW if they replace Continuum split with Distortion, or just add distortion it would be better. In WvW you mostly use Continuum split to get an extra cast of 1 thing because you'll never have enough clones to shatter, they die instantly, so you can never use Continuum split's entire duration. In addition to that. Moving to a previous location with Continuum Split is undesirable because you need to stay on tag, that's where all the heals, clenses and boons are. If you even use CS fully powered, you get off tag and you'll probably die.

PvE, sPvP, small-scale WvW even. Large-scale WvW was acknowledged a long time ago as being such an extreme mode that they'd probably never really be able to fully balance it, just hit the things that were serious problems.

Well they already have the tools available, i mean, they can set each skill to behave differently per game mode. They just need to put in the work. :smile:

They only change the numbers, not the base functionality, though. They're not going to make a skill front-loaded in WvW and back-loaded in other modes.

I think there's a degree to which chronomancer wells just aren't really designed for supporting zergs.

They've already changed how certain skills work several times. Bubble used to follow warriors, now it's static, it used to be charged, now it's instant cast. Mirage had 2 dodges, now it has only 1. Traits had mechanic changes, not just numerical a lot of times. Clearly the tools to change the skills are there but the fact that they're only changing numbers is just showing lazy balancing in form of a band aid. They

can

change the wells if they want, but that would require more work than just changing the numbers on skills. The whole mesmer profession needs a rework, and they

can

do it, but they either don't know what to change and how, or they're lazy or something else, i don't know. I doubt they're lazy, so they probably don't know what to do with mesmers and just leave them nerfed to the ground so no one complains. Which is a big slap on the face to the mesmer community and they should treat us better.

They can change how skills work, but

only

if they want to go the whole way and change how the skill works in

all

modes.

They won't have a skill work differently in different modes

(apart from number changes). This is something they've been clear about, multiple times. They'll change the numbers in a split, but they won't change the functionality, because they want someone moving from one mode to another to be able to know what their skills are going to do (as opposed to GW1, which did have some skill splits where the functionality was completely changed and which caused confusion as a result).

So it's either leaving wells as they are, which is having an interesting interaction with Continuum Split at the cost of being a bit awkward in some WvW situations. Or they could toss out the baby with the bathwater and rework the wells for the sake of WvW and break that interaction in

all

game modes, something which PvE chronomancers and the few sPvP chronomancers still around might well regard as a nerf. They are

not

going to have wells that have a big effect when the well expires in some modes, while in other modes they have that effect immediately when the well is placed. Skill splits between modes only change the numbers, not the functionality.

Changing wells is literally a number change.

PvE 1st 2 hits hit for 5, last hit 10.WvW, first hit hits for 10, last 2 for 5.

Totally confusing am I right? Most people wouldnt know the difference because PvE players almost never touch WvW, and those who play WvW use different builds in PvE.

Only the numbers need to change, I'm not sure why you're blowing this so out of proportion and defending anet.

It's their game. They can do whatever they want to it, theres no real reason that they can't change something. Its only like you said, they dont want to. But it might be needed to balance the profession and get it back in line with how other professions feel and how strong they are.

They

can

change a simple mechanic numerically, or even the functionality, which btw, is also just a numerical change as far as engine is concerned, they dont have to write a whole new code just to switch well pulses around.

And the skill would feel different in both modes. But that's the point. If something needs changing to get In line with other professions, then no excuse is valid enough to not at least try.

But this goes beyond just wells, no need to get stuck on that discussion longer than necessary.

Except that this isn't the way chronomancer wells work.

Chronomancer wells have one effect when they're ticking down, and another, usually completely

different,

effect when they finish:

Eternity heals the caster for a bit when cast, removes condis as it ticks, and heals in an area when it ends.Action damages and slows enemies as it ticks, and grants quickness in an area when it ends.Calamity damages, cripples, and weakens as it ticks, and deals large damage when it ends.Precog stunbreaks the caster when cast, grants aegis as it ticks, and refills endurance when it ends.Recall damages and chills as it ticks, and grants alacrity when it ends.Gravity damages and controls as it ticks, and deals large damage when it ends.

The

only

wells there where you can move some of the effects from the end effect to the ticks, as you propose, are Calamity and Gravity, since both the end effect and the ticks deal damage. So you could, theoretically, move some of the damage from the end effect to the earlier ticks. However, both of these wells are also designed to make it harder for the enemy to escape the well before it explodes. Theoretically, you could also move some of the heal from Eternity from the area heal when it finishes to the chronomancers personal heal when cast, but this would also make the skill more 'selfish', since the initial heal only affects the caster.

With all the other wells, the effect of the final tick is something that isn't on the initial ticks at all. Moving some of the effect of the final ticks onto the initial ticks wouldn't simply be a numbers reshuffle, it'd be changing the functionality of the skill. Which ArenaNet doesn't do as a split between modes.

Honestly, at this stage, I'm pretty sure you just don't understand the skills you're talking about and are arguing out of ignorance. You're claiming that most people wouldn't notice the changes you're recommending, but since you don't seem to know how chronomancer wells actually work to begin with, I think your claim says more about your own level of knowledge than the typical player's.

We didn't understand each other... I said, as far as the game engine is concerned, they're all numbers. If they could program the wells to have an entirely different effect on the last tick, they could probably move that tick around in the code as well. It's just a matter of shifting the code a bit.

I'm not a programmer but, now it's like:

when [welltick=3] then [daze]

If the code is something like this, then moving the last effect to the first tick is a simple number change.

when [welltick=1] then [daze]

It's all about the code. Now, this is a simplified example of how wells might look in the code, and of course, this could be entirely wrong, but the point is - they can totally change it if they want, and even change it per game mode to behave differently. It's not an entire engine revamp, it's just a skill, and they changed skills a lot in the past so changing how something works obviously isn't that difficult. They could even program entirely different effects into the wells and how long they last and who they affect. So your post on how wells work now is irellevant. If they want 1 well to heal everyone on each tick, they can. If they want a well tu pulse cripple, slow and fear in that order, they can. Programming wells or any other skill for that matter isn't the problem. It's just a matter of anet finally deciding what to do with mesmers, nothing more, nothing less.

Whether or not well change would be good or not is irrelevant. I may thing it would be good, you may think not, but the fact is, we don't do balance updates, and we don't program the game. Anet does, and they do have the tools to make the skills act however they want. The problem isn't number reshuffling. The problem isn't even that it might not be as easy as number reshuffling, even in the engine. The problem is that anet doesn't know what they want mesmers to be.

[draxynnic.3719]

Now you're splitting hairs on what a 'numbers reshuffle' is. Sure, everything on a computer is 1s and 0s, but that's not the point.

The point is that any skill split between modes is only going to affect the things that come up as numbers in the tooltip. Damage and healing values. Durations. Numbers of stacks. That sort of thing. They're not going to make a change like "this well heals in an area when it ends in PvE, but in WvW, it'll deliver that area heal when the well is first placed instead". Sure, technically they CAN do it - they made much more extreme splits in GW1 - but their policy is that they won't.

So we come back to my original point: your proposal would ruin the interaction between wells and Continuum Split in every mode for the sake of lowering the skill floor (and ceiling!) of the skills in WvW zergfights. I don't think that's a good trade.

[Veprovina.4876]

@"draxynnic.3719" said:Now you're splitting hairs on what a 'numbers reshuffle' is. Sure, everything on a computer is 1s and 0s, but that's not the point.

The point is that any skill split between modes is only going to affect the things that come up as numbers in the tooltip. Damage and healing values. Durations. Numbers of stacks. That sort of thing. They're not going to make a change like "this well heals in an area when it ends in PvE, but in WvW, it'll deliver that area heal when the well is first placed instead". Sure, technically they CAN do it - they made much more extreme splits in GW1 - but their policy is that they won't.

So we come back to my original point: your proposal would ruin the interaction between wells and Continuum Split in every mode for the sake of lowering the skill floor (and ceiling!) of the skills in WvW zergfights. I don't think that's a good trade.

Then a simple "we disagree" would have sufficed instead of insulting me.You think Anet shouldn't split how skills and traits work, i think they should for the sake of balance.No need to call me ignorant.

[phokus.8934]

Man, I thought people had thicker skin...

Regardless, the wells would have to be completely redesigned which at t his current rate, isn't happening.

[Leonidrex.5649]

@"phokus.8934" said:Man, I thought people had thicker skin...

Regardless, the wells would have to be completely redesigned which at t his current rate, isn't happening.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Elemental_Blast vs https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Well_of_Calamitythis is whats wrong with wells, on the left side, more damage 1/3 cast time and half the cooldown ( its also half the skill since rev has 2 utility bars )on the right side, long cast time, low damage, only way to have impact is to land 3rd tick, gl with that!

[Senqu.8054]

@Yoci.2481 said:Good bye GW2. I gave them over two years to fix Mesmer. Turns out it was two years too many. See you in a different game maybe.

Yoci, no I can’t do this without you :( :( Hope you will come back when they get it going again :) stay safe and have a nice Christmas with your family and a happy new year!. Hope we see us soon :(

[draxynnic.3719]

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@"phokus.8934" said:Man, I thought people had thicker skin...

Regardless, the wells would have to be completely redesigned which at t his current rate, isn't happening.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Elemental_Blast

vs

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Well_of_Calamity

this is whats wrong with wells, on the left side, more damage 1/3 cast time and half the cooldown ( its also half the skill since rev has 2 utility bars )on the right side, long cast time, low damage, only way to have impact is to land 3rd tick, gl with that!

Not sure that the direct skill-to-skill comparison is all that useful, since revenants by design are intended to have more of their power budget coming from their utility skills than most. I think the damage listed for Elemental Blast is for hitting with all three ticks, too (would be nice if the wiki could standardise these things), so Well of Calamity does more damage until the final tick and, if you've invested into power and not into condition damage, Calamity's final tick will get scaled up, while the burning on the final tick of Elemental Blast won't be.

Which is not to say that a buff to Well of Calamity wouldn't be justified, just that the side-by-side comparison doesn't necessarily prove anything.

[Leonidrex.5649]

@draxynnic.3719 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@"phokus.8934" said:Man, I thought people had thicker skin...

Regardless, the wells would have to be completely redesigned which at t his current rate, isn't happening.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Elemental_Blast

vs

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Well_of_Calamity

this is whats wrong with wells, on the left side, more damage 1/3 cast time and half the cooldown ( its also half the skill since rev has 2 utility bars )on the right side, long cast time, low damage, only way to have impact is to land 3rd tick, gl with that!

Not sure that the direct skill-to-skill comparison is all that useful, since revenants by design are intended to have more of their power budget coming from their utility skills than most. I think the damage listed for Elemental Blast is for hitting with all three ticks, too (would be nice if the wiki could standardise these things), so Well of Calamity does more damage until the final tick and, if you've invested into power and not into condition damage, Calamity's final tick will get scaled up, while the burning on the final tick of Elemental Blast won't be.

Which is not to say that a buff to Well of Calamity wouldn't be justified, just that the side-by-side comparison doesn't necessarily prove anything.

" This skill hits three times, for a total 3.45 coefficient. "its from pve, in pvp its slightly smaller.What I mean is that elemental blast deals 80% more damage per tick untill the last one, and nobody EVER gets hit by the last tick anyways so only first 1-2 ticks matter.So what end up happening is you have a skill will1 More damage2 Less cast time3 Lower cooldown4 Its actually half the skill since rev has 2 barsIn this scenarion, well of calamity is not even HALF as good as elemental blast, so ofc its trash

[Curunen.8729]

Disappointed to not see any mention of "Don't stop till you get enough" in here. xD

[Lucio.4190]

@"Curunen.8729" said:Disappointed to not see any mention of "Don't stop till you get enough" in here. xD

Things will happen. It will all get better. Keep fighting and don't stop till you get enough!