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Anet needs to balance PvE more!


Lily.1935

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I wonder if accusing ANet for not caring about the balance, may not be fair.It seems to me like they do care, because they've tried several times but they've listened to wrong people and had a weird way of rebalancing the game... or, they may know something that we don't? Some combinations we haven't tried yet or a build we have underestimated?Something we thought was worthless and haven't shown any interest in trying?On the other hand, the game has existed for 9 years and there's always someone that reads and investigates everything.My point? I actually have no idea what my point is, just throwing some questions.

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@Lucio.4190 said:I wonder if accusing ANet for not caring about the balance, may not be fair.It seems to me like they do care, because they've tried several times but they've listened to wrong people and had a weird way of rebalancing the game... or, they may know something that we don't? Some combinations we haven't tried yet or a build we have underestimated?Something we thought was worthless and haven't shown any interest in trying?On the other hand, the game has existed for 9 years and there's always someone that reads and investigates everything.My point? I actually have no idea what my point is, just throwing some questions.

Wait. When did I say they didn't care? I don't think I mentioned anything about caring or not.

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@scorekeeper.6524 said:I find I get my diversity fix in PvE by playing different professions. I have power porfessions and condition professions. When I get bored of one I switch to the other. Playing your alts really does mix things up and can keep your interest for a few hours more.

Only lasts so long. And not long enough to satisfy the hunger for new builds before stagnation sets in. It also doesn't offer more experimentation as it requires deep dedication to the class to figure that out and even if you get to that point what is most effective is solved. Leaving you wanting. At least it's that way for me

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@Lily.1935 said:

@Lucio.4190 said:I wonder if accusing ANet for not caring about the balance, may not be fair.It seems to me like they do care, because they've tried several times but they've listened to wrong people and had a weird way of rebalancing the game... or, they may know something that we don't? Some combinations we haven't tried yet or a build we have underestimated?Something we thought was worthless and haven't shown any interest in trying?On the other hand, the game has existed for 9 years and there's always someone that reads and investigates everything.My point? I actually have no idea what my point is, just throwing some questions.

Wait. When did I say they didn't care? I don't think I mentioned anything about caring or not.

Sorry, I didn't mean that you did. Some posts in this discussion says that ANet doesn't care and I see the same in other threads too. I also get the feeling that's the common opinion on this forum, that lots of complaints and threads have been written in the subject and nothing has happened.I don't know. Maybe too much happened instead?

I apologize for the way I wrote that, it wasn't my intention to sound like I didn't agree.I play a lot of PvE and sometimes I feel like it's impossible to get further without help. When I first arrived in the Maguuma jungle, It was a lot harder than PoF or central Tyria and it took me a while before rearranging my gear and skills. It's a lot easier now after I've learned how to beat the monsters.

I agree that there needs some changes on the mechanic, on all game modes. I'm just not sure about how it should be changed and what a good change is.

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@Lucio.4190 said:

@Lucio.4190 said:I wonder if accusing ANet for not caring about the balance, may not be fair.It seems to me like they do care, because they've tried several times but they've listened to wrong people and had a weird way of rebalancing the game... or, they may know something that we don't? Some combinations we haven't tried yet or a build we have underestimated?Something we thought was worthless and haven't shown any interest in trying?On the other hand, the game has existed for 9 years and there's always someone that reads and investigates everything.My point? I actually have no idea what my point is, just throwing some questions.

Wait. When did I say they didn't care? I don't think I mentioned anything about caring or not.

Sorry, I didn't mean that you did. Some posts in this discussion says that ANet doesn't care and I see the same in other threads too. I also get the feeling that's the common opinion on this forum, that lots of complaints and threads have been written in the subject and nothing has happened.I don't know. Maybe too much happened instead?

I apologize for the way I wrote that, it wasn't my intention to sound like I didn't agree.I play a lot of PvE and sometimes I feel like it's impossible to get further without help. When I first arrived in the Maguuma jungle, It was a lot harder than PoF or central Tyria and it took me a while before rearranging my gear and skills. It's a lot easier now after I've learned how to beat the monsters.

I agree that there needs some changes on the mechanic, on all game modes. I'm just not sure about how it should be changed and what a good change is.

It's Alright.

I have ideas. I do think Arena net needs to rebalance old content like dungeons to act as a launch board into fractals and raids and to require them to progress in the personal story but that's a different discuss.

I'm not as big on rebalancing open world too much, maybe better scaling for Condi damage and the ferocity changes they did some years ago but beyond that I wouldn't go much further.

For classes, which is what this post is primarily about, I'd like to see more viable builds and team compositions in the endgame and mid game content. I do think the balance needs to be split between PvP and PvE a lot more than it is due to just how drastically different mobs interact with players vs how players interact with players.

Core classes shouldn't be more than 10% behind their elite specs when it comes to DPS builds or other similar builds the elite spec might run although there is nothing wrong with elite specs having entirely unique roles from their core and I would still encourage that. Although percentages is a bit of an arbitrary thing. There are some classes that lag way behind their elites such as necromancer and thief.

Edit: I realize that "its not a problem" is a phrase that both can be interpreted as dismissing a point or as saying "its alright" or "You don't have to worry about it". My intention was to say that its alright, not to be dismissive. So I changed it, sorry, language can be difficult.

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  • 4 weeks later...

@Lily.1935 said:

Chronomancer doesn't need to also be a tank. They are fantastic as a DPS support and a highly desired elite spec. They could afford to give that role up to the Warriors, Guardians, Scrappers and Reapers.

You can tank raids with any class. Among your mentioned all except for reaper can be great tanks, firebrand tank makes it to have a healer and a tank at the same time. Scrapper is same, you can go scourge tank too, but it is a lil worse and warrior does a great job at tanking too at some raid encounters with low pressure. Chrono tank is not the only option to tank nowdays. It is just common in pug runs, because people read outdated forum posts and are just unaware about the current meta at raids. Only thing you need for tanking is enough tougness and there are only very few fights where I can think of chrono tank being the only option. Do yourself a favor, go tank with a heal firebrand, you will thank me later.

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@Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:

@"Lily.1935" said:Tackling new content with the same exact build I've been using for 4 years leads to long periods of fatigue with the game and short bursts of interest.

Then... Change the build? Or maybe even a class if you feel especially daring."I'm not changing my build and then I get bored of my build" -um.. ok. :D

This comment falls in the exact same category as people who ask for more challenging content, you'd respond with, just wear yellow (rare) gear instead of ascended/legendary ...

My comment dont fit to this topic..but i just love your comment!

Thats always what i hear when i say "i want an option for choosing single player hardmode in open world maps"....i hate that answer xD Especially because i dont know how my own volenteer gameplay hurts others who 1 shot everything.

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@Armen.1483 said:

@"Lily.1935" said:Chronomancer doesn't need to also be a tank. They are fantastic as a DPS support and a highly desired elite spec. They could afford to give that role up to the Warriors, Guardians, Scrappers and Reapers.

You can tank raids with any class. Among your mentioned all except for reaper can be great tanks, firebrand tank makes it to have a healer and a tank at the same time. Scrapper is same, you can go scourge tank too, but it is a lil worse and warrior does a great job at tanking too at some raid encounters with low pressure. Chrono tank is not the only option to tank nowdays. It is just common in pug runs, because people read outdated forum posts and are just unaware about the current meta at raids. Only thing you need for tanking is enough tougness and there are only very few fights where I can think of chrono tank being the only option. Do yourself a favor, go tank with a heal firebrand, you will thank me later.

True, the issue isn't "tanking" but "tanking efficiently". Anything can tank, but the dps sacrifice made in order to tank have to be supported by tools that make it worth it to be competitive for the spot.

Thought, I would even say that reaper probably can be a great tank on some encounters based on team composition. For example, against Slothasor in a team low on condi cleanse, you could probably have a reaper tanking while drawing conditions on him to send them back on the boss.

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  • 1 month later...

Even though this topic is a bit older, I give my two cents on it anyway.

There is actually so much that bothers me lately in PVE (which I play 99% of the time). Just to name a few:

  • Overall Damage is way too high: You don't even need to minmax like SC or whotever does, stuff melts too fast anyway.
  • Overall need for boon duration is way too low or basically non existent to keep important boons like quickness up, while providing full dps
  • Renegade 10man alacrity uptime with 1 buttom or with 2 buttons/players with absolutely no boon duration, as if perma quickness without boon duration wasn't enough
  • Firebrand, especially heal, being literally everywhere and not even remotely played well most of the time
  • Seize the Moment Chrono Grandmaster trait: I dont't know what they were thinking here. This trait is completely busted. Chrono already had enough quickness.

But yeah, people still struggle with boons, especially in pug raids. Just leaving the stack for like 5 seconds to do a mechanic and you are left with basically no boon. I wish people would consider double chrono in their lfg, too, although it was exactly the other way around when chronojail was still a thing.

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@Lily.1935 said:

@"Dadnir.5038" said:Well, at least it's difficult for sPvP/WvW players to claim that ANet ruin their gamemode with PvE balance.

The main issue I have with PvE balance isn't the balance of the "P" but the balance of some mechanisms of the "E". And unfortunately, it seem that balancing those mechanisms either isn't high on the priority list of the game developpers or might come with the next x-Pack (which will bring with him it's own share of "issues" anyway).

I have issues with both sides which I've made statements about over the past year. My suggestions for turret reworks and Minion improvements for example of Profession specific issues.

As for environmental issues, I agree. Enemies aren't very distinct from one another even across enemy types. And some that are different are radically different.

Other issues is that there needs to be specific balance design separate from PvP and WvW because the goals of PvE are very different from those formats due to how Enemy AI functions. Guild wars 1 for example had enemies that used player skills and team compositions that forced you to engage with them in a similar manner you would a player so the transition between game modes was much easier. But even that system couldn't function without skill splits and sometimes drastically so.

Enemies in GW2 are so drastically different from how they are in GW1 arena net's attempts to try and tackle the balance in much the same way is not a good method to do. They need to do much more.

As a note to that a proper agro system is completely useless for PvP and fairly useless for WvW as well, but this would be incredibly helpful to the diversity of PvE allowing for new sort of control/tank builds to gain in popularity. Arena net has solid support and solid DPS roles for groups but the third pillar of their trinity, the control pillar, is exceptionally weak in PvE. This puts tank builds firmly Into the support role so they need to be doing double duty and it has limited the game to one viable tank.

Chronomancer doesn't need to also be a tank. They are fantastic as a DPS support and a highly desired elite spec. They could afford to give that role up to the Warriors, Guardians, Scrappers and Reapers.

Of course that's a rant I've been going on and on about for months now.

I do agree that Environmental balance could and should be included. Boons on enemies often require them to be cast by that enemy NPC to be applied. This can work if that NPC is a party buffer. However for some enemies this basically leaves them open to a free attack such as for trolls casting to get regen. Regen should be a passive self applied boon on trolls either at all times or as soon as they engage with the players. Likely reapply every 20 or 30 seconds and last that long.

Beyond just the passive boons, some enemies should have unique buffs associated with their boons. Like a Turtle that always has protection and blocks bonus damage from critical hits while its protected. Or a giant that as long as its might is active its attacks knock back. These might not be the best examples, but they're just an idea to make you think more about engagements with basic enemies.

I do agree with you. But I'd also go a step further and say PvE needs some more unique mechanics such as a threat system that also requires some unique balance for classes to interact with.

I too talked about this before why nec for instance falls so far behind, and mechanics holding it back because boon corrupt and some of the cc have no place in pve.

This game is definitely very flawed.

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Guys. All laughs aside, maybe the OP is simply asking for more effort being put into making every class viable in the PvE meta? I for one would quickly get bored if 60% of my classes just weren't strong enough for it.

The 60% is just a bit of hyperbole to get the point across, I'm just trying to see it from their perspective.

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I think your problem OP isn't so much about the balance of PvE but more your own play habits.i'm not saying that there isn't a balance problem, we all know that some classes perform better than others that's just the nature of games with options like that.

But if you're playing the same build and you are "bored" then that says to me that you don't actually enjoy playing that build and probably do so because it's the "optimal" or "meta" for your class and that fault is really on you then.

I recommend watching this very recently uploaded video by Josh Strife Hayes, while the title is about game guides he actually gets into a lot about how games have fallen into a state of fun vs efficiency and how the more optimised you play the game the more fun you optimise out of the game which can be greatly applied to Gw2 and the meta culture that exists in this game which many people have often criticised and in some cases claimed is toxic or elitist.. this is especially prevalent in discussions surrounding raid content as anyone who's been in those kinds of threads has very likely seen very often in those discussions.

As someone who has been an advocate in these forums for many years telling people to play Gw2 how they want to play and not how the meta culture tells them to play I have to agree with a lot of what he talks about in the video.

So if you are bored OP.. then I strongly suggest you listen to people here who are advising you to change your build or try another class and make something that you enjoy playing instead of copying some build off some website that will let you hit the biggest numbers.The fun is in the journey not the ending and building your own builds is far far more enjoyable than just copying someone else's and playing it how they tell you to.Go with a build that is something unusual and different.. that alone will make you feel kinda unique from everyone else, trust me I've been doing this for years and it's one of the reasons I still enjoy playing Gw2 :)

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@"Oxstar.7643" said:Guys. All laughs aside, maybe the OP is simply asking for more effort being put into making every class viable in the PvE meta? I for one would quickly get bored if 60% of my classes just weren't strong enough for it.

That's not a problem in this game ... you can play a very wide range of builds that AREN'T meta and still be very successful playing this game. If not being meta is a barrier for people, that's not a game mechanics issue.

The "I'm bored" issue is certainly not because there isn't a large variety in playstyles available between all the classes and builds to keep people occupied.

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@"Lily.1935" said:PvE is mine and many other's preferred game mode. And from that perspective it often seems that PvE is largely ignored when it comes to balance which I feel is a mistake. A lot of classes under preform and the dominant builds tend to stay dominant for years. This creates a rather stale format. Although some like the consistency of it never or rarely changing, I don't hold that position at all.

Tackling new content with the same exact build I've been using for 4 years leads to long periods of fatigue with the game and short bursts of interest.

You could tell me to do PvP or WvW more. But those formats are extremely stressful for me. I don't like killing other players, I get no enjoyment from being killed by them myself. I prefer spectating those. And my involvement with spectating is directly linked to my enjoyment of PvE.

So this post is more personal feels on the issue. From my perspective, PvE is the most important part of the game. And new content is soured for me when the gameplay has stagnated for me. I enjoy a PvE experience that is evolving. And without new skills being added, balance is where I turn to to find my thrills with experimentation and adapting.

They "evolved" it by "making it more challenging" - aka "nerfing". The same for all kinds of farming (anyone try and get any slabs of poultry lately???), and just about every other aspect of the game. Honestly, it isnt much fun - more like masochism ;b

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@Obtena.7952 said:

@"Oxstar.7643" said:Guys. All laughs aside, maybe the OP is simply asking for more effort being put into making every class viable in the PvE meta? I for one would quickly get bored if 60% of my classes just weren't strong enough for it.

That's not a problem in this game ... you can play a very wide range of builds that AREN'T meta and still be very successful playing this game. If not being meta is a barrier for people, that's not a game mechanics issue.

The "I'm bored" issue is certainly not because there isn't a large variety in playstyles available between all the classes and builds to keep people occupied.

The part you conveniently left out says it was a hyperbolic statement to make a point.

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@Oxstar.7643 said:

@Oxstar.7643 said:Guys. All laughs aside, maybe the OP is simply asking for more effort being put into making every class viable in the PvE meta? I for one would quickly get bored if 60% of my classes just weren't strong enough for it.

That's not a problem in this game ... you can play a very wide range of builds that AREN'T meta and still be very successful playing this game. If not being meta is a barrier for people, that's not a game mechanics issue.

The "I'm bored" issue is certainly not because there isn't a large variety in playstyles available between all the classes and builds to keep people occupied.

The part you conveniently left out says it was a hyperbolic statement to make a point.

OK ... then what is the point you are trying to make here if your statement is just hyperbole? Seems to me that your view is that if you find some insignificant errors in a game that's over 8 years old ... Anet doesn't care. That's clearly not true. Am I missing an inside joke or something?

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No. The point that I was making is that I THINK what the OP is trying to say is that they are tired of cookie cutter builds and dominant classes. I never said, or insinuated that I AGREE with that notion, or that I KNOW if that is true for this game. In factm that is why I added the hyperbole part. So that someone wouldn't start trying to "fact check" me. However, cookie cutter builds and dominant classes are a common issue in MMORPGS, and, surprise surprise, a lot of people don't like it.That was all I was saying.

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@"Lily.1935" said:PvE is mine and many other's preferred game mode. And from that perspective it often seems that PvE is largely ignored when it comes to balance which I feel is a mistake. A lot of classes under preform and the dominant builds tend to stay dominant for years. This creates a rather stale format. Although some like the consistency of it never or rarely changing, I don't hold that position at all.

In PvE you can play pretty much anything though, and don't have to play the dominant or meta builds. In fact, some of the more enjoyable builds are not Meta or even close to being "dominant".

Tackling new content with the same exact build I've been using for 4 years leads to long periods of fatigue with the game and short bursts of interest.

Why are you using the same build for 4 years? There are hundreds of unique build options per Profession, let alone 9 Professions you can choose to play. Many of them are 'good enough' for PvE.

You could tell me to do PvP or WvW more. But those formats are extremely stressful for me. I don't like killing other players, I get no enjoyment from being killed by them myself. I prefer spectating those. And my involvement with spectating is directly linked to my enjoyment of PvE.

So this post is more personal feels on the issue. From my perspective, PvE is the most important part of the game. And new content is soured for me when the gameplay has stagnated for me. I enjoy a PvE experience that is evolving. And without new skills being added, balance is where I turn to to find my thrills with experimentation and adapting.

So you do enjoy experimenting with builds? If you do then why use the same build for 4 years or complain about a stale format?

Perhaps you are thinking specifically of high end Strikes, Raids and Fractals? This I can completely understand since there is a community expectation to have a 'meta' build for that type of content. However even there you can alter your build to both suit your playstyle and the needs of the group. Your build flexibility in this type of content requires your build meshing with the builds of the other players to optimize the encounters, and as such, meta or not, you will need to accommodate the group needs to find success. This does create some limitations in how you approach you characters build.

While I think it would be awesome to have better balance across the professions and as many builds within each, the variance for the majority of builds is a lot closer than the best and worst builds would lead you to believe. It feels to me that the high end PvE content could use more options for group support (Alacrity, Quickness, Fury, Might etc) to allow niche Professions to have more flexibility in what they bring to the group.

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@"Mungo Zen.9364" said:So you do enjoy experimenting with builds? If you do then why use the same build for 4 years or complain about a stale format?

Efficiency, investment and utility is why. There are a lot of builds with nagging issues such as turrets engineer in PvE which doesn't provide the punch needed in various situations, requires a high investment and has minimal utility. And this is a major problem across all non-meta builds, although Turrets are one of the more egregious. When I'm feeling spicy I do run Condi reaper because it is about where I'd like most builds to be in Open world at least. However its not entirely a new build or all that unique when comparing it to power reaper. Its fairly similar in play pattern and with minor differences.

You also can't make someone enjoy something they don't enjoy. For example I don't like the core gameplay loop of warrior and variation to a warrior isn't going to do it for me pretty much regardless of what arena net comes out with.

But to be real. I'm not expecting changes until after EoD comes out which is kinda why this thread went silent for so long. And I know there are people who will say "Anything is viable in open world" But I'll ask you to take a full turret build into drizzlewood coast or Dragon's stand and try and tell me its even close to condi reaper in power. Condi reaper isn't viable for raids, let that be clear as raids isn't the only concern I have. Its a part of it, yes, but not the only one.

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