List of Tradeoffs - The Better Way to do Balance

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

@Multicolorhipster.9751 said:

@"LucianTheAngelic.7054" said:Your revenant analysis is objectively wrong:

Herald:1) Herald’s +10% health bonus is a regular minor trait, not part of the “trade off” trait

Yeah, that's because it doesn't have a tradeoff. If you're named Harold they just give you 10% health just 'cus.

Please google "Herald Traits" on the GW2 Wiki. Here. I'll do it for you:https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/List_of_revenant_traits

DRACONIC FORTITUDE (AKA THE 10% Health trait) IS A MINOR MASTER TRAIT. IT'S NOT PART OF THE "TRADEOFF TRAIT" AKA THE MINOR ADEPT TRAIT. Draconic Fortitude is literally just a regular trait. If you take a traitline that isn't Herald, you get a different Minor Master trait instead. You don't just "get 10% health just cuz." I'll say it a 4th time, it's literally just a regular trait, not part of the "tradeoff trait."

Please stop spreading misinformation

2) Herald trades Ancient Echo for Facet of Nature. This is a direct trade off. Echo isn’t a bad skill, and certainly better than some of the FoN skills (looking at you Glint). By ditching core you trade higher energy access for FoN.

Renegade:1) again Renegade trades Ancient Echo for Heroic Command, Citadel Bombardment, and Orders from Above and Kalla’s Fervor. None of these skills are particularly OP and Renegade would likely be better served with Ancient Echo instead of all 3 of them if it could choose to not give it up. Citadel Bombardment is useless in PvP most of the time. Heroic command is extra might which is relatively redundant on ren. Orders from above isn’t awful, but Rev already has low CDs anyway so alacrity is only somewhat good on it.2) Kalla’s Fervor is the most non-trade off aspect of Ren since it doesn’t replace anything and is only added3) yes Ren gets a lot for it’s tradeoff, but this isn’t inherently a bad thing or unbalanced. While the class is performing well now it wasn’t for years so clearly the extra bonuses you get for taking Ren over Herald or Core weren’t enough to justify using Ren. None of the trade offs are major reasons why Ren is being used now and they’re fairly well balanced already

P.s. yes Ren objectively has a trade off even if you don’t think it does. And Herald’s trade off is near equivalent and not as unbalanced or nonexistent like you claim

Ah, yes. I'm objectively wrong because they aren't OP.

???

You're objectively wrong because the things about Renegade that were/are an issue have literally nothing to do with F2/F3/F4 or Kalla's Fervor. It has everything to do with Kalla's Stance skills and the massive overbuffing of shortbow and then the overnerfing of everything else. The F2/F3/F4 aren't even really out of line with Ancient Echo, either, which is important when considering balance and tradeoffs. This isn't a case like Core Guardian vs. Firebrand where Firebrand has an additional 15 skills

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

@Yasai.3549 said:

@LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

Renegade:1) again Renegade trades Ancient Echo for Heroic Command, Citadel Bombardment, and Orders from Above and Kalla’s Fervor. None of these skills are particularly OP and Renegade would likely be better served with Ancient Echo instead of all 3 of them if it could choose to not give it up. Citadel Bombardment is useless in PvP most of the time. Heroic command is extra might which is relatively redundant on ren. Orders from above isn’t awful, but Rev already has low CDs anyway so alacrity is only somewhat good on it.

I'm inclined to disagree with this.Orders from Above is the one defining part of Renegade which makes it still heavily lodged into the PvE meta.If not for Renegade's ability to use this off CD and apply Alacrity to allies, Renegade would have fell through the floor from disuse long time ago.

This is the PvP side of the forums so PvE is literally irrelevant for this discussion

[Yasai.3549]

@"LucianTheAngelic.7054" said:

This is the PvP side of the forums so PvE is literally irrelevant for this discussion

It's just not right to talk about "what's useful for PvP" when talking about the Espec as a whole and tradeoffs.But say, fine we are talking only about PvP Renegade.

I wouldn't say Orders are useless, neither would I count out Heroic Command.Especially now that Incensed Response has been nerfed, Heroic Command is one of the few things left which will allow Renegade to instantly gain a good amount of Might in a single button press.

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

@Yasai.3549 said:

@"LucianTheAngelic.7054" said:

This is the PvP side of the forums so PvE is literally irrelevant for this discussion

It's just not right to talk about "what's useful for PvP" when talking about the Espec as a whole and tradeoffs.But say, fine we are talking only about PvP Renegade.

I wouldn't say Orders are useless, neither would I count out Heroic Command.Especially now that Incensed Response has been nerfed, Heroic Command is one of the few things left which will allow Renegade to instantly gain a good amount of Might in a single button press.

If that's the case and we're discussing professions as a whole across all game modes then it should be moved to the "Professions" tab under "other" topics. But no, it was made specifically in the pvp forums so it should be assumed the focus is on pvp.

I didn't say Orders are useless. I only said Bombardment was useless in PvP. My full quote was "None of these skills are particularly OP and Renegade would likely be better served with Ancient Echo instead of all 3 of them," so please don't put words into my mouth. Heroic Command isn't bad, but I don't think it's as good as Ancient Echo, especially when Vindication still exists. Bombardment as mentioned is trash in PvP and Orders from Above is fairly meh in PvP.

I also don't think PvE tradeoffs are nearly as important since it's not a mode that is balanced for often anymore and there's tons of busted things that exist there already, very little of it having to do with "not having proper tradeoffs for elite specs." I also am of the mind that it's fine if Core isn't as good as the Elites.

[Quadox.7834]

you know whats even more exciting than buffs? new content.

reworking old deprecated traits (300 sec icd anyone), adding new skills/traits (in core we got new gm trait and new healskill on all classes). new classes. new especs. new usable weapons on core professions. new (non-djinn) maps. even additions to hotm.

[Yasai.3549]

@Quadox.7834 said:you know whats even more exciting than buffs? new content.

reworking old deprecated traits (300 sec icd anyone), adding new skills/traits (in core we got new gm trait and new healskill on all classes). new classes. new especs. new usable weapons on core professions. new (non-djinn) maps. even additions to hotm.

What would be even more exciting is adding new weapons to Core, especially for the likes of Revenant, Engineer and Elementalist.The day every Profession gets 1 new Core weapon is the day everyone comes together in harmony and dance around in Lions Arch in a huge Conga line.

[otto.5684]

Speaking purely from PvE, I find the term “trade-off” silly. If you consider the elites, as a package, they are typically stronger by quite a bit. Even if you leave something behind, when taking an elite, you are usually in a much better position.

[Infusion.7149]

@"LucianTheAngelic.7054" said:This is the PvP side of the forums so PvE is literally irrelevant for this discussion

Did the moderators move this thread?

If it's about PVP or even WVW , not being able to drop out of berserk mode is a rather large downside to berserker. You also can't use burst at all unless in berserk mode (as mentioned in first post). There could have been a "tradeoff" of manually ending berserk mode (F2?) resulting in loss of all adrenaline + possibly locked out of rage skills for an amount of time depending on the adrenaline level (like overheat disabling toolbelt skills).

That's not even counting the fact that the entire traitline is centered around it, unlike say Soulbeast , Druid, or Reaper. It'd be the same if Holo couldn't drop out of Photon Forge.

@ Multicolorhipster.9751 :

There's also the QoL tradeoff on necros not running scourge in that all your utility skills' cooldowns aren't visible.

For firebrand, being able to use virtues willy nilly without regard for cooldowns because they can be traited to be active even after activation is a huge benefit.

For mirage, axe is in use in multiple modes but for competitive modes the one dodge issue is ever present even with Jaunt + Blink.

You are also missing spellbreakers' ability to boon rip which is a big plus. Without that factor nobody would run warriors in WVW right now.

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

@Infusion.7149 said:

@LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:This is the PvP side of the forums so PvE is literally irrelevant for this discussion

Did the moderators move this thread?

Yes looks like they did. It was originally posted in PvP.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

I'll reiterate. You have to consider all the minor traits when discussing what is gained and what is lost as they are the new chassis that is gained and is how the espec alters the class.

If stats are apart of the new chassis, even things like health and damage modifiers, then they a apart of the discussion.

Some especs impose stat penalties, some don't. The ones that don't tend to perform better.

[Jski.6180]

Core ele realty needs something other then just cd on swaps or your simply making tempest need arcain line and or core ele to make it an core ele. Maybe the F5 is needed must like the F5 on eng core.

The real traid off of core ele vs tempest and waver should be flexibility BUT because tempest and weaver both have support and dps choose there no real way to cut the flexibility with out comply destroying core ele (as anet has done up to this point to balanced both weaver and tempest). So i suggest looking at gobble cd between swaps not the cd of the swaps them self. If you make a hard cap of 3 sec for both tempest and weaver (letting tempest have a hard cap cd for its overloads at 3 sec as well) you would go a long way to fixing a flexibility problem. At the same time much like eng you need to make the conja weapons into kits AND make the weaver conja wepon kits go on 6 sec cd much like the holo use of there kits. This may need to carry over to tempest as well at some level.

Any thing else will just mean core ele is worthless as a class when you can always just be a tempest and only only a tempest when you need an overload.

@Multicolorhipster.9751Only core ele to tempest has no true triad off in gw2 every thing else has some changes even if they are small.

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:I'll reiterate. You have to consider all the minor traits when discussing what is gained and what is lost as they are the new chassis that is gained and is how the espec alters the class.

If stats are apart of the new chassis, even things like health and damage modifiers, then they a apart of the discussion.

Some especs impose stat penalties, some don't. The ones that don't tend to perform better.

Except that doesn’t make any sense. There is a clear “trade off” trait (aka the Minor Adept trait) which is mostly what Anet is talking about when discussing trade offs. Every other minor trait (minor master and minor grandmaster) is directly replacing those minor traits from other core trait lines that are not chosen. It’s always been understood that taking an elite spec traitline is a trade off in and of itself since you lose access to 1 core traitline.

However, what should not be done in this discussion is conflating the “non-trade off” minor traits as being “no cost bonuses” like the OP has done for several especs.

For example, the OP says Herald gains 10% health just for being Herald and that there is no tradeoff. This isn’t true, Draconic Fortitude is a Minor Master trait. By taking Herald you lose access to all other Minor Masters from core that you’re not choosing. For further example, if not taking Retribution for Revenant you then lose the corresponding Minor Master, which is Unwavering Avoidance (gain vigor when you evade an attack).

This is why it’s kind of pointless to discuss all of the minor traits when discussing Elite Spec trade offs and discussion should be focused on the direct tradeoffs. It’s understood that you’re losing access to some core traitlines and some core minors to get an espec traitline and their minors. This is more a direct question of “are these minors in-line with core minors” which is more of a question of regular balance than of tradeoffs.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

@LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:I'll reiterate. You have to consider all the minor traits when discussing what is gained and what is lost as they are the new chassis that is gained and is how the espec alters the class.

If stats are apart of the new chassis, even things like health and damage modifiers, then they a apart of the discussion.

Some especs impose stat penalties, some don't. The ones that don't tend to perform better.

Except that doesn’t make any sense. There is a clear “trade off” trait (aka the Minor Adept trait) which is mostly what Anet is talking about when discussing trade offs. Every other minor trait (minor master and minor grandmaster) is directly replacing those minor traits from other core trait lines that are not chosen. It’s always been understood that taking an elite spec traitline is a trade off in and of itself since you lose access to 1 core traitline.

However, what should not be done in this discussion is conflating the “non-trade off” minor traits as being “no cost bonuses” like the OP has done for several especs.

For example, the OP says Herald gains 10% health just for being Herald and that there is no tradeoff. This isn’t true, Draconic Fortitude is a Minor Master trait. By taking Herald you lose access to all other Minor Masters from core that you’re not choosing. For further example, if not taking Retribution for Revenant you then lose the corresponding Minor Master, which is Unwavering Avoidance (gain vigor when you evade an attack).

This is why it’s kind of pointless to discuss all of the minor traits when discussing Elite Spec trade offs and discussion should be focused on the direct tradeoffs. It’s understood that you’re losing access to some core traitlines and some core minors to get an espec traitline and their minors. This is more a direct question of “are these minors in-line with core minors” which is more of a question of regular balance than of tradeoffs.

That's a rather cynical viewpoint to be honest. The minors are not something you choose within the traitlines, they are the chassis for the spec.

You cannot discuss tradeoffs without including them. So long as there are minors that impose negatives, then they are a part of the tradeoff.

I know we won't agree on this, that's fine. It's valuable to air both sides and we can fairly disagree on it.

My main concern is that there are specs with minors that impose penalties. These were bad decisions and need to be removed. Can we agree on that?

[Dadnir.5038]

It feel like the fact that chrono lose the ability to self-shatter (pre HoT trait Illusory persona) have been forgotten in it's "tradeoff".

From my point of view:HoT:

• Tempest: Gain strong overloads at almost no cost (Technically there is no increase to the attunment CD, wiki list the occasional increase as a bug)
• Scrapper: Gain fonction gyro, lose toolbelt elite skill ("Ok"ish for PvP, not really worth it for PvE)
• Dragonhunter: Modified virtue. (I'd say it's an "Ok" trade off. Could afford an increased CD on some of those virtues)
• Chrono: Lose illusory persona, slightly different shatter skills. (From my point of view it's a loss)
• Reaper: Change shroud skillkit (it's even, like moving from a shortbow to a hammer)
• Druid: Gain avatar, pet lose a bit of power (it's a net gain)
• Herald: trade it's F2 for another F2. (It's Ok)
• Daredevil: Trade it's F1 for another. Gain an extra dodge. (You could say it's a net gain)
• Berserker: Lose regular burst for primal burst gated behind a stance. (no opinion)

PoF:

• Weaver: Lose flexibility, gain dual attunment attack. (I'd say it's on the "gain" side)
• Holosmith: replace elite toolbelt skill by a kit (it's a net "gain")
• Firebrand: Replace virtue by tomes (no real loss here)
• Mirage: lose a dodge, gain new attack after dodging (a bad tradeoff)
• Scourge: Shades replace shroud (the way shades work make it a bad tradeoff)
• Soulbeast: Lose the ability to swap pet in combat, gain the ability to merge with pet. (it's "Ok"ish)
• Renegade: Lose F2, gain F2/F3/F4.
• Deadeye: Stronger stealth attack, new bundles at the cost of less mobility. (no opinion)
• Spellbreaker: Gain a defensive F2, lose potential damage on F1.

[draxynnic.3719]

I think it is valid to consider all of the minor specs when assessing an elite, but you also need to do what a lot of people forget and remember that one of the things you give up is a core traitline. That's hard to directly analyze because you can't predict which core traitline would have otherwise been taken in its place, but for some professions it is quite significant.

If one is trying to be objective, I'd make the following adjustments:

@Multicolorhipster.9751 said:List of Currently Existing Tradeoffs:

Tempest: | Gain: Overloads Loss: Increased CD on attunement swaps for Overloads

This isn't a tradeoff - or rather, it's not a tradeoff of taking Tempest. Nothing stops you from playing a Tempest exactly how you'd play a regular Elementalist. Overloads give you an additional option, and the increased CD is a tradeoff for using that option, but is not a tradeoff for taking Tempest. You can always choose not to overload and therefore not to suffer the increased CD.

Firebrand: | Gain: Tomes with lots of additional skills Loss: Tomes have increased CD's compared to core virtues.

Also lose instant activation of virtues. How important that is is subjective, but it IS something you give up.

Scrapper: | Gain: Barrier on damage Loss: -180 Vitality

Also lose having an F5 based on your elite skill in exchange for the function gyro.

Elite Specs without Tradeoffs or Unbalanced Tradeoffs:Dragonhunter: | Gain: F1 and F2 do more than core does at the same CD. Loss: F3 has a longer CD than core. (2-1)

As commented above, they lose instant activation of virtues. The value of that is subjective, but while DH virtues are flashy, losing the ability to activate virtues while doing something else does hurt occasionally.

Holosmith: | You can overheat Just kidding, no tradeoff. (1-0)

Like Scrapper, you lose having an F5 based on your elite skill.

Harold: | Gain: 10% Max health for being Harold. F2 skill for 5 Legends. Loss: Core rev's F2 skill for 4 legends.(2-0)

Even using a simplistic points-based model, I'd call this 2-1 rather than 2-0. Any given build still only has two F2 skills available, and giving up a 25 energy boost skill is significant... although Ancient Echo is probably still a little weaker overall.

Renegod: | No tradeoff. (1-0)

More that you give up one skill in order to gain three. In practice, you're giving up a skill that grants you energy that you could use for other skills, in exchange for three skills that cost energy.

[Axl.8924]

@Jski.6180 said:Core ele realty needs something other then just cd on swaps or your simply making tempest need arcain line and or core ele to make it an core ele. Maybe the F5 is needed must like the F5 on eng core.

The real traid off of core ele vs tempest and waver should be flexibility BUT because tempest and weaver both have support and dps choose there no real way to cut the flexibility with out comply destroying core ele (as anet has done up to this point to balanced both weaver and tempest). So i suggest looking at gobble cd between swaps not the cd of the swaps them self. If you make a hard cap of 3 sec for both tempest and weaver (letting tempest have a hard cap cd for its overloads at 3 sec as well) you would go a long way to fixing a flexibility problem. At the same time much like eng you need to make the conja weapons into kits AND make the weaver conja wepon kits go on 6 sec cd much like the holo use of there kits. This may need to carry over to tempest as well at some level.

Any thing else will just mean core ele is worthless as a class when you can always just be a tempest and only only a tempest when you need an overload.

@Multicolorhipster.9751Only core ele to tempest has no true triad off in gw2 every thing else has some changes even if they are small.

You mean basically access to better stab on tempest and access to decent buffs from overload that synergize with tempest really well no?

[Jski.6180]

@Axl.8924 said:

@Jski.6180 said:Core ele realty needs something other then just cd on swaps or your simply making tempest need arcain line and or core ele to make it an core ele. Maybe the F5 is needed must like the F5 on eng core.

The real traid off of core ele vs tempest and waver should be flexibility BUT because tempest and weaver both have support and dps choose there no real way to cut the flexibility with out comply destroying core ele (as anet has done up to this point to balanced both weaver and tempest). So i suggest looking at gobble cd between swaps not the cd of the swaps them self. If you make a hard cap of 3 sec for both tempest and weaver (letting tempest have a hard cap cd for its overloads at 3 sec as well) you would go a long way to fixing a flexibility problem. At the same time much like eng you need to make the conja weapons into kits AND make the weaver conja wepon kits go on 6 sec cd much like the holo use of there kits. This may need to carry over to tempest as well at some level.

Any thing else will just mean core ele is worthless as a class when you can always just be a tempest and only only a tempest when you need an overload.

@Multicolorhipster.9751Only core ele to tempest has no true triad off in gw2 every thing else has some changes even if they are small.

You mean basically access to better stab on tempest and access to decent buffs from overload that synergize with tempest really well no?

The overloads dont have to be used on tempest and you can play tempest like a core ele. Its this lack of an F5 or a "core ele effect" that is missing for a real traid off out side of just a trait line lost.

[Infusion.7149]

@"Dadnir.5038" said:It feel like the fact that chrono lose the ability to self-shatter (pre HoT trait Illusory persona) have been forgotten in it's "tradeoff".

From my point of view:HoT:

• Tempest: Gain strong overloads at almost no cost (Technically there is no increase to the attunment CD, wiki list the occasional increase as a bug)
• Scrapper: Gain fonction gyro, lose toolbelt elite skill ("Ok"ish for PvP, not really worth it for PvE)
• Dragonhunter: Modified virtue. (I'd say it's an "Ok" trade off. Could afford an increased CD on some of those virtues)
• Chrono: Lose illusory persona, slightly different shatter skills. (From my point of view it's a loss)
• Reaper: Change shroud skillkit (it's even, like moving from a shortbow to a hammer)
• Druid: Gain avatar, pet lose a bit of power (it's a net gain)
• Herald: trade it's F2 for another F2. (It's Ok)
• Daredevil: Trade it's F1 for another. Gain an extra dodge. (You could say it's a net gain)
• Berserker: Lose regular burst for primal burst gated behind a stance. (no opinion)

PoF:

• Weaver: Lose flexibility, gain dual attunment attack. (I'd say it's on the "gain" side)
• Holosmith: replace elite toolbelt skill by a kit (it's a net "gain")
• Firebrand: Replace virtue by tomes (no real loss here)
• Mirage: lose a dodge, gain new attack after dodging (a bad tradeoff)
• Scourge: Shades replace shroud (the way shades work make it a bad tradeoff)
• Soulbeast: Lose the ability to swap pet in combat, gain the ability to merge with pet. (it's "Ok"ish)
• Renegade: Lose F2, gain F2/F3/F4.
• Deadeye: Stronger stealth attack, new bundles at the cost of less mobility. (no opinion)
• Spellbreaker: Gain a defensive F2, lose potential damage on F1.

You lose one core traitline on tempest which often times has a damage modifier. Every traitline pretty much has a damage modifier, whether it is fire / air/ water / earth / arcane. I would say the reason why tempest is used over core ele is due to the warhorn (Lightning Orb makes up ~20% of overall damage and can hit 14 to 42 times which means it is amplified significantly from buffs that benefit from multiple hits but also suffers against retaliation) as well as overload damage (Overload air is ~20% of overall power DPS on Fresh Air tempest and hits up to 14 times). In competitive modes, I'm almost certain if the interval on shock aura were 3s instead of 2s it would fall out of favor very quickly now that 10 target shouts is gone. That's the other main difference, more access to shock auras (fire aura / frost aura can be attained via combo fields quite readily) and magnetic aura for reflects. In the early days of GW2 we had cele dagger+dagger core ele so it isn't so much the fault of core ele as the power creep overall across all specs.

Scrapper's vitality loss is negated by the explosives line (Blast Shield in particular) as well as the barrier output. In places where barrier isn't counted as healing, scrapper excels. In fact I use it often to help people with CMs for ad infinitum because not only do you have high sustain you have a function gyro that resurrects people. Because warrior's cunning is different in PVP than WVW, it isn't kept in check by the anti-barrier trait either. Wasn't it just recently people were complaining about full sustain decap scrapper being "degenerate" as well as meme flamethrower scrapper?

DH : seeing how it is interchangable both in PVE and PVP (and WVW roaming) with core guard for the most part since longbow is generally not great it comes down to traps as a skill category rather than virtues.

Chrono ... you lose distortion shatter and a core traitline. Because shield has a double block if used in a timely fashion the tradeoff is largely negated with that weaponset. Illusionary Persona is gone from the game already. If you're talking about meta PVE power chronos, those don't have the ability to double shatter (illusions) or gain a damage bonus from Compounding Power because they run domination + dueling + chrono. When you see 40K+ benchmarks those are inflated by slow and Danger Time (so realistically it's 36K or less even without accounting for the crit chance improvement) and the assumption clones don't die. Realistically it will be lower when you aren't running more than one chrono. In fact , I would be glad if Danger Time were outright removed because the only time it excels is when you stack chronos. Because gravity well is no longer dealing real damage in competitive modes, the place you often see chrono nowadays is WvW as a bulk boon rip source.

Reaper : the shroud on reaper hits harder than core generally and the quickness applied via traits makes it far more self sufficient. Also Greatsword is a far better power weapon than axe is for PVE purposes. The main tradeoff is the melee nature of reaper shroud as well as Greatsword, which is readily apparent in PVP and WvW roaming (less so in largescale WvW).

Druid: you technically lose one core traitline which can be used for damage but almost everyone runs druid as a support (whether it is healing in PVE or the annoying decap or immob druids in competitive modes). There's nothing intrinsically condi about druid other than the fact that there's condi + heal gear : a condi soulbeast has more threat offensively against a target without cleanses.

Herald: Due to the nature of facets it's much easier to use glint than the other legends ; boon uptime with 3s intervals is effortless (and 10 targets now in PVE such that it is meta in some raids) and the "invuln" of infuse light is always apparent against people not paying attention.

Daredevil : It's more or less a direct upgrade except for the steal range ; in PVE you almost always run it (need it for staff) and even in competitive modes as well

Berserker: As stated above, the inability to drop out of Berserk mode is a huge defensive liability which can only be mitigated by Eternal Champion which means you lose out on the 15-20% damage bonus (depends on game mode) of Bloody Roar. Berserker loses adrenaline when kited so the entire mechanic is more or less mitigated if you have to chase a target. We've seen berserkers being used in WVW (mainly for arc divider) where it relies on the sustain of firebrands/scrappers/tempests/shout breakers but it isn't a must have by definition especially since almost all CC skills have their damage taken away (which means hammer warriors are largely support).

Weaver : a nightmare to play for most players due to the way dual attunement works ; sword is melee range so in places you can't weapon swap it's a liability. At its inception I think it was suggested unravel be part of the F skills rather than a utility. It's been nerfed in competitive modes already and I would say the barrier to its adoption in PVE comes down to ease of play and the fragility of it in full zerk.

Holosmith: replaces F5 with a high powered melee (or partly ranged when traited) kit... that also has sustain in the form of heals/barrier/condi conversion. I think it's been brought up before that it also anti-kiting despite being mostly melee due to Crystal Configuration: Zephyr.

Firebrand: you lose a core traitline which can give you sustain or damage but for the most part it's a direct upgrade since you can trait to have the virtues up even after using tomes

Mirage: axe is a strong melee weapon but as condi chrono exists in PVE and it has one dodge in competitive modes (somewhat mitigated by energy sigil , Jaunt + Blink) I would say it could use some refining. The way the dodge works is jarring for some players, it's very apparent when people try to dodge and they die because of mirage mirror.

Scourge: it was nerfed to only have F skills effects around the shades a while back, then it was both around the scourge and shades in July of this year. In PVE scenarios scourge is far more relevant than reaper in most cases, people ask for heal scourge more often than they will ever ask for reapers. Also for the heal/support players a scourge is less of a burden because of the shroud mechanic being removed as part of the spec. The fact that there isn't a huge tell that you are locked out of utilities and heal skill (and heals in general) due to being in shroud is a benefit as well.

July 7 ,2020: Shade skills have been changed back to triggering at both the necromancer's location and their shade locations with each use.

Soulbeast: generally a direct upgrade to core ranger even though you lose either a core damage (skirmish/marks/beast mastery unlikely) or sustain traitline (wilderness survival usually). In PVE there's essentially no reason to run a core ranger for damage as the merged bonuses are significant and it makes "pet bonuses" all applied to merged soulbeast (i.e. Maul , "Sic Em").

Renegade: it's worth noting that Shortbow is a weapon that is used in PVP bunker type renegades and so is the Kalla legend. Whether it is overpowering is debatable but prior to February nobody would bother using it since legends would vanish instantly to auto attacks similar to mesmer clones. For the most part alacrity from the orders skill isn't a big concern in competitive modes since the interval isn't short as herald. For a straight condi build people have been using condi herald, so it ultimately boils down to Kalla + shortbow. In PVE , it also boils down to Kalla (CC) and the alacrity from the orders skill even when you account for condi RR.

Deadeye: it basically comes down to having a ranged weapon that isn't cringe worthy. Rifle is still not widely regarded and the whole stealthing aspect prevents capture point progression.

Spellbreaker: because you trade off a core traitline (generally either tactics or strength) and higher tier bursts in exchange for boon rips and full counter it has a tradeoff that is more apparent in PVE. Damage overall is inline with a Berserker that is missing Bloody Roar (~30K per Lucky Noobs while a full DPS Berserker is ~37K?). For competitive modes having the defensive capabilities of full counter and boon rips is invaluable , far more than the huge tradeoffs of berserker.

[Hypnowulf.7403]

I am pleased that ArenaNet were clever enough to separate the balance of PvE, PvP, and WvW. This is a highly intelligent choice that I wish any other MMO would've made. I've left titles before for trying to "balance" PvP and ruining PvE in the process.

The problem is this: Balance is an illusion. Balance simply isn't real. What balance actually is is a very clever way of giving everyone their time in the sun on a rotation; This way, everyone gets to feel powerful for a while, underpowered for a while, and middle-of-the-road for a while. This is what every "balancing" team has ever done in any game I've ever played, it's about keeping the baying, braying masses docile by ensuring that no particular class—or profession—feels powerful for too long.

The only true balance is rock, paper, scissors. This is why Pokémon and 1v1 fighting games fare so well. Indeed, if there one has a powerful means, that powerful means has a weakness or can be nullified by something else. This is the only way that any kind of balance can be achieved because all it does, really, is place balance within the hands of the players. It's up to the players to ensure there are enough rocks, papers, and scissors present within the field. I'm sure this is why any game that isn't focused around this venerable approach is probably envious of those that are.

This is why tradeoffs won't work. It would break the cycle, you see. Whilst Jormag and I alike are all for the breaking of cycles, it would result in chaos, it'd leave the majority very upset, and the docility fashioned by the rotation of power would be lost. This is all that "balance" does for the most part.

"Okay, who's powerful in PvP this month? Right, let's jiggle their numbers up a bit and jiggle the numbers of major threats to them down a lot."

That's an oversimplification, yes, but that's ultimately all it is. I feel like I'm lifting the veil here and that that might be rather dangerous but... It's the same reason why cries for nerfs are ignored until it's that class's turn to be depowered in favour of some other class. It's the rotation of life, and it rules us all. Well, not all. Not PvE players. Thank Cael. You get the idea though.

[Obtena.7952]

I don't see this as better, just different. I think 'tradeoffs' is just a bad approach to design; you won't get better balance with it no more than just the regular attempts to balance by changing skills.

[Jski.6180]

@"Hypnowulf.7403" said:I am pleased that ArenaNet were clever enough to separate the balance of PvE, PvP, and WvW. This is a highly intelligent choice that I wish any other MMO would've made. I've left titles before for trying to "balance" PvP and ruining PvE in the process.

The problem is this: Balance is an illusion. Balance simply isn't real. What balance actually is is a very clever way of giving everyone their time in the sun on a rotation; This way, everyone gets to feel powerful for a while, underpowered for a while, and middle-of-the-road for a while. This is what every "balancing" team has ever done in any game I've ever played, it's about keeping the baying, braying masses docile by ensuring that no particular class—or profession—feels powerful for too long.

The only true balance is rock, paper, scissors. This is why Pokémon and 1v1 fighting games fare so well. Indeed, if there one has a powerful means, that powerful means has a weakness or can be nullified by something else. This is the only way that any kind of balance can be achieved because all it does, really, is place balance within the hands of the players. It's up to the players to ensure there are enough rocks, papers, and scissors present within the field. I'm sure this is why any game that isn't focused around this venerable approach is probably envious of those that are.

This is why tradeoffs won't work. It would break the cycle, you see. Whilst Jormag and I alike are all for the breaking of cycles, it would result in chaos, it'd leave the majority very upset, and the docility fashioned by the rotation of power would be lost. This is all that "balance" does for the most part.

"Okay, who's powerful in PvP this month? Right, let's jiggle their numbers up a bit and jiggle the numbers of major threats to them down a lot."

That's an oversimplification, yes, but that's ultimately all it is. I feel like I'm lifting the veil here and that that might be rather dangerous but... It's the same reason why cries for nerfs are ignored until it's that class's turn to be depowered in favour of some other class. It's the rotation of life, and it rules us all. Well, not all. Not PvE players. Thank Cael. You get the idea though.

If balance is an illusion then why would you ever want to separate between the game types? I do not buy this mind set and it seems to be more an means of apologizing for simply bad balancing teams.

They only partly separated and there are some massive hold overs from pve balancing that very bluntly gets in the way of spvp and wvw balancing. Anet is realty bad a favoring some classes over others gurd is the best example of this for all game types. Anet likes ppl to play gurd over all other classes this is why they gotten more reworks and buffs over all and that IS a massive balancing problem that anet and anet alone has made.

A lot of skills have not been touched in a real way for 5 years + and you have skill that have been reworked over and over there is something wrong here.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Category:Updates

Look for your self the info is there.

@Obtena.7952 said:I don't see this as better, just different. I think 'tradeoffs' is just a bad approach to design; you won't get better balance with it no more than just the regular attempts to balance by changing skills.

Also knows as power creep and P2W. Tradeoffs are a must and they realty need to be impactful to make the choose you make for your build to mean something other then just run the meta or what anet tells you to run. THAT is where are are anet is effectively dictating the meta and telling its player base what to run and how to run it. The oppositely of the original ideal of gw2.

[draxynnic.3719]

@"Jski.6180" said:They only partly separated and there are some massive hold overs from pve balancing that very bluntly gets in the way of spvp and wvw balancing. Anet is realty bad a favoring some classes over others gurd is the best example of this for all game types. Anet likes ppl to play gurd over all other classes this is why they gotten more reworks and buffs over all and that IS a massive balancing problem that anet and anet alone has made.

That's... really not accurate. The only significant rework Guardian has had since HoT was the spirit weapon rework. The core traitlines and mechanics are still largely doing what they did after the all-profession traitline rework pre-HoT, and the only times I can think of where there have been functionality changes to elite specialisation stuff (as opposed to numbers reworks) it's been to nerf them. There's been nothing along the lines of the full traitline reworks that revenant, warrior, and engineer have had, or the complete mechanics change that mesmer had a little after PoF released.

Largely because it hasn't needed them.

The common line "guardian is in a good place" reflects that guardian is the closest to achieving the standard that ArenaNet is aiming for all professions to reach. Solid mechanics, versatile, all traitlines have their uses, and in PvP it's pretty much always present but apart from firebrands for a bit (but they've now been pretty much nerfed out of sPvP altogether) it's rarely dominant.

[Dadnir.5038]

@"Infusion.7149"The way you're looking at "tradeoff" in term of damage output is wrong from the start (For example, I could say druid is on the losing side of the tradeoff just because it's dps is low, yet it's not a tradeoff). "Performance" isn't a trade off, there is pro and cons to all traitlines. The difference to core mechanisms is where lie the tradeoffs, and for some e-spec there is clearly a net gain of mechanism from their e-spec (for example tempest getting overload for "free", going with the excuse that "core ele just need a F5 is just denying that tempest and weaver simply got "more" out of the trade).

[Yasai.3549]

@"draxynnic.3719" said:

The common line "guardian is in a good place" reflects that guardian is the closest to achieving the standard that ArenaNet is aiming for all professions to reach. Solid mechanics, versatile, all traitlines have their uses, and in PvP it's pretty much always present but apart from firebrands for a bit (but they've now been pretty much nerfed out of sPvP altogether) it's rarely dominant.

Guardian and DH, yes.FB is definitely overloaded though.

I mean in exchange for losing 3 actives they get 15 actives instead.In fact, PoF in general, just overloads Especs.

I feel like all HoT specs are fairly balanced.

[Dawdler.8521]

@Yasai.3549 said:

@"draxynnic.3719" said:

The common line "guardian is in a good place" reflects that guardian is the closest to achieving the standard that ArenaNet is aiming for

all

professions to reach. Solid mechanics, versatile, all traitlines have their uses, and in PvP it's pretty much always present but apart from firebrands for a bit (but they've now been pretty much nerfed out of sPvP altogether) it's rarely dominant.

Guardian and DH, yes.FB is definitely overloaded though.

I mean in exchange for losing 3 actives they get 15 actives instead.In fact, PoF in general, just overloads Especs.

I feel like all HoT specs are fairly balanced.HoT

heavily

overloaded it's specs on release (and nerfed core before).PoF

heavily

overloaded it's specs on release (and nerfed HoT before).

It's a pattern you know, lol. The only reason PoF specs are still "strong" is... you can guess it... EoD isnt released yet.