Difference between thief and mesmer in wvw?

[lare.5129]

no big difference in blob for me

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

@kamikharzeeh.8016 said:i see so many thieves around, so i can safely say that they are useless... nothing but vultures. they have ppt-usage, but that was it. as casual as it gets. abiltiers: kill dollies, gank lonely players, pull if using that build, portal into keeps if using that build, stealthy throwing siege disablers. wow, so useful. @Jugglemonkey.8741 none of that is real usefulness. their most senseful use would be to scout for tags, but that rarely happens.

So, according to you, outside of using voice comms and perma-stealthing behind an enemy tag so your tag always knows where they are, hiding in towers and recapping solo so your tag can focus on the enemy, cutting supply lines so the enemy cannot sustain an attack, keeping enemy players from contributing to their zerg by forcing them to hunt the thief or lose the objective, and downing backliners in open field fights to provide targets for your tag to bomb, thief has no use. Gotcha.

Fyi, something doesn't become useless just because you can't see a use for it.

[kamikharzeeh.8016]

i mean, in reality thiefs just never do that. i really play Wvw much, and we have a lot of thieves here. they hide in towers to port people in, rarely solocap bc they'd get ganked in outnumbered situations. often just port ppl in and go stealth again, often ppl just get ganked then inside.

the bigger numbers server can always get supps, u cannot effectively "cut the supply lines", that'd require a huge number of thieves on all maps that work coordinated - and exactly that is what thieves usually avoid. u guys to solo actions, tagging keeps perma due to the broken escape options works, yeah.

this scouting-zergs is technically possible, but idk if i have ever seen that happening like u describe it.

so even if we say it's not completely useless, it has a very low need of numbers compared to everything else. like 2 thieves in a 75 mapcap border would be enough yet. reality is rather, 8 thieves that do random things, 10-15 rangers hunting dollies or escorting them.

the potential use may be there. if you're that good at cooperating, tags would give u participation tho. then you do get spots in tags. just the 0,001% that do this and not roleplaying as vulture make it hard to say "ok, thief superlegit meta class, just bring"

[kash.9213]

@kamikharzeeh.8016 said:@kash.9213 how'd you do that as thief? you'd pop within a second as a thief in midst of billions of AoE fields... i legit doubt that this works. u can do this in very cloudy open formation blobfights in openfield, but u gotta smell that this happens, idk.

the point of sustain is to not let stuff dying in the first hand, bc downed are not rarely targets to fish for more kills. so in a 30sec fight, u can what, res 3 ppl? if u'd be a additional firebrand, they might not have even gotten under 50% health. surely, reckless pugbombers excluded, nothing can save a rambo pushing alone into 40 ppl.

@Junkpile.7439 yeah, but even there engi stealthers or mesmer(chrono since bulky normally) are somehow safer. thief is the peak of a glass cannon... and as u said, thief specs rarely do that

@"ASP.8093" with "mesmer", it's meant "chronomancer". wellsupport, boonstrips, evtl pulls, veils, illusion o. life.

Blast and don't blow your endurance, Initiative, and cooldown loads freaking out about every circle or false push. I also leech off of interrupts and crits and build to keep that up and Surging Runes can be a burst heal and also flip a fight if one or two of their core go down or have to bail. You might feel like padding daredevil but connecting everything you send out is more important in traits after stat thresholds as much as being alert to what you actually have to mitigate and what you can eat to keep resources staggered and not having to bounce right away. If your crits are landing and have bite, shortbow auto is lazy but sneaky good and you probably wont get focused right away.

[suialthor.7164]

@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

So, according to you, outside of using voice comms and perma-stealthing behind an enemy tag so your tag always knows where they are, hiding in towers and recapping solo so your tag can focus on the enemy, cutting supply lines so the enemy cannot sustain an attack, keeping enemy players from contributing to their zerg by forcing them to hunt the thief or lose the objective, and downing backliners in open field fights to provide targets for your tag to bomb, thief has no use. Gotcha.

Fyi, something doesn't become useless just because you can't see a use for it.

Where is this rare communicative thief and how can we get them to server transfer? I've only played along side ones looking to use stealth as a crutch for ganking.

[kash.9213]

@suialthor.7164 said:

@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

So, according to you, outside of using voice comms and perma-stealthing behind an enemy tag so your tag always knows where they are, hiding in towers and recapping solo so your tag can focus on the enemy, cutting supply lines so the enemy cannot sustain an attack, keeping enemy players from contributing to their zerg by forcing them to hunt the thief or lose the objective, and downing backliners in open field fights to provide targets for your tag to bomb, thief has no use. Gotcha.

Fyi, something doesn't become useless just because you can't see a use for it.

Where is this rare communicative thief and how can we get them to server transfer? I've only played along side ones looking to use stealth as a crutch for ganking.

Your lying. If you're not lying, you don't do enough anywhere to weigh in if that's your claim, especially since you've likely leeched off of zergs commanded by thieves because everyone has.

[ASP.8093]

@kamikharzeeh.8016 said:@"ASP.8093" with "mesmer", it's meant "chronomancer". wellsupport, boonstrips, evtl pulls, veils, illusion o. life.

I've covered this, I think: Focus pull is legit good, Gravity Well is the only good chrono well, necro is far superior at boon rips in ZvZ (even reaper), Veil is weak in the current meta. Guess I left out Illusion of Life but /shrug.

The point is that overall you're a utility bot with less actual utility than a scourge spamming barrier at the same time as they're spamming damage.

[suialthor.7164]

@kash.9213 said:Your lying. If you're not lying, you don't do enough anywhere to weigh in if that's your claim, especially since you've likely leeched off of zergs commanded by thieves because everyone has.

I've never seen a thief command outside of small group ppt.

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

@"kamikharzeeh.8016" said:i mean, in reality thiefs just never do that. i really play Wvw much, and we have a lot of thieves here. they hide in towers to port people in, rarely solocap bc they'd get ganked in outnumbered situations. often just port ppl in and go stealth again, often ppl just get ganked then inside.

the bigger numbers server can always get supps, u cannot effectively "cut the supply lines", that'd require a huge number of thieves on all maps that work coordinated - and exactly that is what thieves usually avoid. u guys to solo actions, tagging keeps perma due to the broken escape options works, yeah.

this scouting-zergs is technically possible, but idk if i have ever seen that happening like u describe it.

so even if we say it's not completely useless, it has a very low need of numbers compared to everything else. like 2 thieves in a 75 mapcap border would be enough yet. reality is rather, 8 thieves that do random things, 10-15 rangers hunting dollies or escorting them.

the potential use may be there. if you're that good at cooperating, tags would give u participation tho. then you do get spots in tags. just the 0,001% that do this and not roleplaying as vulture make it hard to say "ok, thief superlegit meta class, just bring"

@suialthor.7164 said:

@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

So, according to you, outside of using voice comms and perma-stealthing behind an enemy tag so your tag always knows where they are, hiding in towers and recapping solo so your tag can focus on the enemy, cutting supply lines so the enemy cannot sustain an attack, keeping enemy players from contributing to their zerg by forcing them to hunt the thief or lose the objective, and downing backliners in open field fights to provide targets for your tag to bomb, thief has no use. Gotcha.

Fyi, something doesn't become useless just because you can't see a use for it.

Where is this rare communicative thief and how can we get them to server transfer? I've only played along side ones looking to use stealth as a crutch for ganking.

For every thief you see goofing around somewhere, you will see players on other classes doing the same, and I'm pretty sure everyone has memories of players on all classes being outright detriments to their team through their behaviour. The failure to be useful just means that player is being useless at that time, it doesn't mean that their class can't be useful if used right.

You may have a point about larger groups always getting supply, but I can always stealth ahead of their zerg while they cap a camp for supply and try to place supply traps if I want to be really annoying. Something I can always do is force several players to run dollies if they want their towers and keeps to upgrade, that's one player dictating what happens across 3-4 objectives, and on resets it's not uncommon for me to get 5-10 players come to defend north camp while laying stealth traps etc. If those players aren't on their tag and are spreading out across a camp looking for me, that's a numbers advantage to our group wherever they're fighting.

I'm just describing stuff that I try to do when working with a tag, and yeah, I usually get a spot in the squad and participation when doing it. That said, I'm known to my guild (a server community guild) and commanders, I am usually using voice comms, and I'm probably one of the only people who has a full minstrel deadeye build just for scouting zergs and hiding in objectives, so that may have something to do with it too. That's also assuming I'm working with a tag at the time; sometimes I just feel like solo roaming and seeing what happens, and it's okay for players to want to do that. My overall point is that just because thief players either fail or do not try to be useful to a tag doesn't mean they can't be if they wanted to; WvW does not solely revolve around roaming & scouting, havok, open field fights, GvG or PPT, all of these things are important and useful if given their proper place.

[Fuchslein.8639]

@"ArktoCZ.5837" said:Hi, can somebody who is experienced in wvw please explain me the difference in roles and playstyle of thief+specs and mesmer+specs in wvw content? Im not looking for "which one is better", but more of comparison and plus and cons of both classes and for what type of player they are more suited, since from what I have seen they are pretty similar in general playstyle-> high skill cap+floor, high risk/high reward, great 1v1, high burst, but I would like to know more about them. Thanks for help and stay safe

I don't know if you still look in here after all the responses. But a little reminder that the forum is not crucial to the online community of GW2 ^^''.For more serious answers I would look on Youtube or even Reddit(Whereby you are also at the mercy of randoms).Have fun in the game and Happy, safe holidays :)

[Yasai.3549]

For Roaming :Thief has way better survivability, if only due to their Stealthing capabilities.Their Ini system also forgives their mistakes to some extent, allowing them to attempt bursting their target repeatedly until they mess up gloriously.It is not an exaggeration to say that skilled Thieves never die.

Mesmers have been beaten into the dirt now, and have been reduced to feast or famine, all or nothing style gankers.They used to be the kings of WvW Roaming with their insanely fast Condi Bomb and brutal 1 shot Power bursts, but of all the Professions affected by nerfs, they were hit the hardest.Now, they essentially have 2 tries to kill their target 1v1 : First opening try, buying themselves time and avoiding retaliation with cooldowns, and a second final try which has to down their target or they are essentially screwed and helpless to counter attack.

For Zerging/Havoc :Thief is always a presence even though they don't contribute to the main zerg.Thieves love to stay out of the pushing group and away from the main fight, picking off reinforcements as they can utterly dominate a poor Scourge or Hammer Rev attempting to rejoin their zerg and just killing them straight up.The more trollish Thieves will also use Scorpion Wire to pull people off walls.

Mesmers are really good for zerging because they have a variety of builds which support Zerg play.Though their GS burst is pretty garbage when throwing it into an enemy group, they are still capable of supporting their team with well placed Null Fields and Domes.

A well placed Null Field not only cleanses allies but rips boons from enemies, making this an invaluable group fighting tool, especially in choke points.

[kash.9213]

@suialthor.7164 said:

@kash.9213 said:Your lying. If you're not lying, you don't do enough anywhere to weigh in if that's your claim, especially since you've likely leeched off of zergs commanded by thieves because everyone has.

I've never seen a thief command outside of small group ppt.

Right, you've never seen. I explained why you're either making that up or why you haven't seen that. At some point you might have to spend some money to transfer or something.

[kamikharzeeh.8016]

nah, thief command just isn't a good idea. the tag classes are nearly only pretty bulky things, for a reason.

i also never seen that seriously. some clown tags, may have been thieves, but that way u can also tag up on a core ranger...

[suialthor.7164]

@kash.9213 said:

Right, you've never seen. I explained why you're either making that up or why you haven't seen that. At some point you might have to spend some money to transfer or something.

Overall I'm happy with my server. Sure they ignore objectives at times for blob fights but that is better than some of the alternatives.

You seem to take it personally that some servers prefer commanders who can provide utility to the group they lead (since they expect everyone to run meta builds). Even in the groups that don't care about meta builds, thief's are not a high priority for the few balanced parties that might be possible. It simply is not a good choice in large scale fights. It is however, exceptionally strong at small scale which attracts players who tend to be less interested in supporting others.

[kash.9213]

@suialthor.7164 said:

@kash.9213 said:

Right, you've never seen. I explained why you're either making that up or why you haven't seen that. At some point you might have to spend some money to transfer or something.

Overall I'm happy with my server. Sure they ignore objectives at times for blob fights but that is better than some of the alternatives.

You seem to take it personally that some servers prefer commanders who can provide utility to the group they lead (since they expect everyone to run meta builds). Even in the groups that don't care about meta builds, thief's are not a high priority for the few balanced parties that might be possible. It simply is not a good choice in large scale fights. It is however, exceptionally strong at small scale which attracts players who tend to be less interested in supporting others.

Go back and read your previous comments, those are taking things personally. I don't care what thieves and commanders are doing, but you keep doubling down on ridiculous claims.

@kamikharzeeh.8016 said:nah, thief command just isn't a good idea. the tag classes are nearly only pretty bulky things, for a reason.

i also never seen that seriously. some clown tags, may have been thieves, but that way u can also tag up on a core ranger...

Of course it's not a good idea, but sometimes a blob aren't being super serious and still clean up. People in game don't take things half as serious as people in this forum who will flat out lie because they're butt hurt about a class instead of a skill or mechanic.

[Yasai.3549]

@kash.9213 said:

@kamikharzeeh.8016 said:nah, thief command just isn't a good idea. the tag classes are nearly only pretty bulky things, for a reason.

i also never seen that seriously. some clown tags, may have been thieves, but that way u can also tag up on a core ranger...

Of course it's not a good idea, but sometimes a blob aren't being super serious and still clean up. People in game don't take things half as serious as people in this forum who will flat out lie because they're butt hurt about a class instead of a skill or mechanic.

These are examples of pug tags.Pug tags are a mish mash of whatevers, and only gather under a Tag in order to attempt a defense or to push an objective.

Pug tags can be commanded by anyone, and usually they don't do zerg v zerg battles, but just attempt gurriliea warfare, hitting random objectives without trying to engage in a full scale fight.

In a full scale fight, pug groups just evaporate because of a lack of coordination as well as a hog-posh of professions which make no proper comp.

[kash.9213]

@Yasai.3549 said:

@kash.9213 said:

@kamikharzeeh.8016 said:nah, thief command just isn't a good idea. the tag classes are nearly only pretty bulky things, for a reason.

i also never seen that seriously. some clown tags, may have been thieves, but that way u can also tag up on a core ranger...

Of course it's not a good idea, but sometimes a blob aren't being super serious and still clean up. People in game don't take things half as serious as people in this forum who will flat out lie because they're butt hurt about a class instead of a skill or mechanic.

These are examples of pug tags.Pug tags are a mish mash of whatevers, and only gather under a Tag in order to attempt a defense or to push an objective.

Pug tags can be commanded by anyone, and usually they don't do zerg v zerg battles, but just attempt gurriliea warfare, hitting random objectives without trying to engage in a full scale fight.

In a full scale fight, pug groups just evaporate because of a lack of coordination as well as a hog-posh of professions which make no proper comp.

Guild groups evaporate also, some I really like and are cool people but just can't keep it going, and some pub groups roll up the right people when it gets going. Doesn't mean I'm advocating for one thing or saying it's a better idea, it means that's the way it plays out sometimes regardless of planning and whoever's raging on discord.

[jacekplacek.7923]

Both class with stealth, so both are easy for cheating. Mesmer you can use for zerg running, thief no really. I didn't play mesmer, but on thief you just ganking people and flip camps (5 from pistol and oneoneone sword/dagger). Thief is funny for hunt running enemies, but don't be suprise when necro will be faster than you with 3 dodges, and short bow. Anet xmas magic.Och yea and stealth is usefull for suprise disable siege trap

[KrHome.1920]

You can zerg with teef. Just pick staff, CS, Tr, Drd and something between marauder and soldier gear you feel comfortable with. It's not meta, but far from useless. Swipe (17s cooldown) grants might, fury, swiftness, vigor + 3 stolen boons (stability!) to nearby allies.

[Junkpile.7439]

Both classes can throw target painters too. It's kind of entertaining use those when you fight spanish try hard blob that try to use stealth whole time. B)

[suialthor.7164]

@kash.9213 said:

@suialthor.7164 said:

@kash.9213 said:

Right, you've never seen. I explained why you're either making that up or why you haven't seen that. At some point you might have to spend some money to transfer or something.

Overall I'm happy with my server. Sure they ignore objectives at times for blob fights but that is better than some of the alternatives.

You seem to take it personally that some servers prefer commanders who can provide utility to the group they lead (since they expect everyone to run meta builds). Even in the groups that don't care about meta builds, thief's are not a high priority for the few balanced parties that might be possible. It simply is not a good choice in large scale fights. It is however, exceptionally strong at small scale which attracts players who tend to be less interested in supporting others.

Go back and read your previous comments, those are taking things personally. I don't care what thieves and commanders are doing, but you keep doubling down on ridiculous claims.

@kamikharzeeh.8016 said:nah, thief command just isn't a good idea. the tag classes are nearly only pretty bulky things, for a reason.

i also never seen that seriously. some clown tags, may have been thieves, but that way u can also tag up on a core ranger...

Of course it's not a good idea, but sometimes a blob aren't being super serious and still clean up. People in game don't take things half as serious as people in this forum who will flat out lie because they're butt hurt about a class instead of a skill or mechanic.

You admit leading with a thief isn't a good idea. Yet can't imagine servers being smart enough to avoid making it a thing.

[NuhDah.9812]

@aspirine.6852 said:Thief is played by sad people, and mesmer is played by cool people...

I can confirm this is true. I do play thief and also always feel sad with my life. I didn't know there was a correlation there. Props to the community to do research and point this out.

[Sylvia.4870]

@aspirine.6852 said:Thief is played by sad people, and mesmer is played by cool people...

lol Not always.

[ASP.8093]

@"KrHome.1920" said:You can zerg with teef. Just pick staff, CS, Tr, Drd and something between marauder and soldier gear you feel comfortable with. It's not meta, but far from useless. Swipe (17s cooldown) grants might, fury, swiftness, vigor + 3 stolen boons (stability!) to nearby allies.

The big problem with Staff Daredevil is your only shtick is melee-range damage (with about 600 range worth of gap-closing potential, if you don't count going full YOLO Shadowstep once every minute), backed up by some evade frames and combo finishers for survival. And because of your class mechanics you can't "burn through" one weapon's special abilities on the pre-engage and then switch to the other for melee. So you're having to compete with, e.g., Reaper, which has stronger ranged potential with Marks/Wells/SpinalShivers and then gets to output similar damage melee AOE when it's time to spin-to-win on the full push.

You can still make it work if your group has all the bases covered already, perhaps, but imo you really need to be bringing top-notch damage — well in excess of what your half-Marauder/half-Zerk Hammer Herald buddy is dropping with CoR + Phase Smash — to make it worthwhile.