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Should shatters be removed/changed/replaced in the next elite spec?


Tseison.4659

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So the only thing I can think of to balance is to push shatter traits into the shatters themselves, which will free up a lot of traits to be filled with something else. Which I think would be great because it’ll give the class a chance to get unique and better traits that can be focused on the Mesmer itself or their utility skills and less on the shatter mechanic.

I’m only saying this because this is the 3rd expansion, and the shatters are no longer original, they’re distasteful, and every other class got something new while Mesmers didn’t. (Don’t bother mentioning Mirage Cloak because as nice as it is in PvE, we have to deal with one dodge forever).

  • 14 traits for shatters, only 3 of them increase shatter damage and the rest are just “other,” aka not even close to being viable.

  • 5 traits that involve our illusions and yet only 3 of them are towards increasing their damage.

  • 5 traits that all summon a clone and they’re all useless except for deceptive evasion.

And yet some ‘Mesmers’ don’t see the problem that is a profession pigeon holed into this mechanic that barely delivers. EoD needs to revamp shatters and clones completely and give us more personal damage/defence and less reliance on whatever illusions/clones/shatters are failing to be... “damage.”

Mesmers have gotten more nerfs and “adjustments” than other professions, so yeah, if balancing is going to be an “issue” for them in terms of the shatters, well, that’s their problem for tying shatters so heavily to a class and two E-Specs when they could’ve just had them in one.

Below is a list of shatter traits that would need to be merged into all shatters (including Chrono & Mirage):

! Rending Shatter (Domination) — Shatter skills inflict vulnerability on hit.! Shattered Concentration (Domination) — Shatter skills also remove a boon on hit.! Maim the Disillusioned (Illusions) — Shatter skills inflict torment on hit.! Master of Misdirection (Illusions) — Shatter skills gain recharge reduction.! Master of Fragmentation (Illusions) — Your Shatter skills are improved.

Traits that affect shatters and would need to be merged in all shatters but only when in the selected E-Spec:

! Time Catches Up (Chronomancer) — Activating a Shatter gives your illusions superspeed. Shatters deal increased damage to movement-impaired foes.! Flow of Time (Chronomancer) — Gain alacrity for each clone you shatter.! Reversion Illusionary Reversion (Chronomancer) — Shatter skills generate a clone if you have enough clones present. This trait needs to be removed and changed into something else as we already have a lot of clone generation skills.! Seize the Moment (Chronomancer) — Gain quickness for each clone you shatter. Nearby allies also gain quickness.! Riddle of Sand (Mirage) — When entering combat, your first Ambush attack applies confusion. This ability refreshes when you use a Shatter skill.! Nomad's Endurance (Mirage) — Shatter skills give vigor, and vigor grants condition damage.

Traits that affect shatters and can remain unchanged or be traited into if the player's playstyle revolves around shattering are as followed:

! Mental Anguish (Domination) — Shatter skills deal more damage. This bonus damage is doubled against foes that are not activating skills.! Bountiful Disillusionment (Chaos) — Gain stability when you use a Shatter skill. Gain an additional boon based on which Shatter is used.! Restorative Illusions (Inspiration) — Heal yourself and lose conditions when you use a Shatter skill. (Note: If Mesmers get a healing spec in EoD, this trait can be merged into the new F1-F4)! Master of Misdirection (Illusions) — Shatter skills gain recharge reduction.

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You need a third option.

I'm not against removing them for the elite, but all of our weapons have some form of clone or phantasm generation and so do our traits and utilities. It would probably be hard to balance those to work with the new mechanic.

So, idk, "no" for me, but "yes" it would maybe be cool.

I'd rather have the third elite be able to retain phantasms, like they were before, and keep our shatters for clones (as they don't affect phantasms).Or replace shatters with phantasm buffs so clone generation skills generate "energy" or something and F1-F4 empower phantasms in some way based on how many energy was spent.

But again, i wouldn't want that if it means further imbalance to the mesmer and further future nerfs that might eventually happen because of this. Because then anet nerfs one thing that affects all others that never needed nerfs in the first place due to how closely everything on mesmer is tied to the shatters and illusion generation.

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I think the specific buttons F1-F4 need to exist in some form because of various Core traits that modify them (blinding dissipation, shattered concentration, bountiful disillusionment, restorative illusions, master of fragmentation... etc...). It's difficult to think of anything different that would function properly with core trait lines.

But sure, they don't have to be "shatters", and we don't have to have clones/phantasms separate from the player - which I'm hoping the next elite spec is at least a cloneless spec of some kind.

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'Should' is a nebulous term. I think there is room for a mesmer build that does something else with the F1-F4 keys than shatters, though. For instance, they could involve giving some order to your illusions that doesn't destroy them (including setting them all on a new target).

Giving back persistent phantasms through an elite spec would be worthwhile, I think. I understand why they changed it, but it's a playstyle people enjoyed, and reworking the F1-F4 skills to allow for more active control over phantasms could keep it as a reasonably active build rather than a passive one.

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No. To me, removing shatters would remove the identity of Guild Wars 2 Mesmer. That being said, I am 100% on board with phantasms being replaced by attacks executed by the actual Mesmer. If done well, this could solve some issues.

1.) Insta-gib Power bursts would be less lethal as you would no longer be able to precast Phantasmal Berserker and have them land with the rest of your combo. I'm curious to see how the power burst would adapt to this type of change. Perhaps you would throw mirror blade from range and blink in to use GS-4 right as mirror blade hits.

2.) Power Mesmer would gain some much needed mobility via Greatsword and Offhand Sword phantasms.

3.) The inherent issues of relying on AI to deal damage would be drastically reduced for Mesmer. This has become more of a problem since Anet reworked phantasms into one and done attacks (admittedly a necessary change due to Chronomancer). Far too often the phantasm is summoned and either whiffs its ability or its target dies and the phantasm does not attack at all.

4.) It could fix another issue resulting from the previous phantasm rework in that we no longer gain instant access to shatter ammo upon using a phantasm skill. The reworked abilities could summon a clone upon use.

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Would be fine with anything that shakes up the current clone/shatter interaction (so something that’s not clones casually walking to target and exploding); phantasms are fine as they are (mechanically, balance is another issue) since they kinda on the level of symbol skills on guard (but they can change if needed, idc).

Mesmer is perhaps the only profession whose profession mechanic has not really changed after 2 especs (chrono shatters outside f4 are basically reskins). F1/2/3 are all the same and the method to use them is literally the same. The only different thing is csplit on chrono and you can’t even use it very often. Meanwhile other professions get flashy new skills/transformations/entire skill bars as their new profession mechanic, makes you wonder if they just ran out of creative juices when it came to mesmer...

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Yes, it's time!

Give me instruments (guitar, harp, flute, drums) with my f1-f4 abilities that work like firebrand's tomes, that give me new skills. The amount of skills you get to use with each instrument is determined by the amount of illusions you destroy when channeling the instruments.

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@Jables.4659 said:No. To me, removing shatters would remove the identity of Guild Wars 2 Mesmer. That being said, I am 100% on board with phantasms being replaced by attacks executed by the actual Mesmer. If done well, this could solve some issues.

1.) Insta-gib Power bursts would be less lethal as you would no longer be able to precast Phantasmal Berserker and have them land with the rest of your combo. I'm curious to see how the power burst would adapt to this type of change. Perhaps you would throw mirror blade from range and blink in to use GS-4 right as mirror blade hits.

2.) Power Mesmer would gain some much needed mobility via Greatsword and Offhand Sword phantasms.

3.) The inherent issues of relying on AI to deal damage would be drastically reduced for Mesmer. This has become more of a problem since Anet reworked phantasms into one and done attacks (admittedly a necessary change due to Chronomancer). Far too often the phantasm is summoned and either whiffs its ability or its target dies and the phantasm does not attack at all.

4.) It could fix another issue resulting from the previous phantasm rework in that we no longer gain instant access to shatter ammo upon using a phantasm skill. The reworked abilities could summon a clone upon use.

Well to be fair, no one asked for them to remove Hexes/Interrupts which I felt were Mesmers real identity in the original game and it’s not like they couldn’t add hexes in GW2 since it’s essentially a reverse-barrier.

But anyways, I still would rather your idea for the next E-Spec so we aren’t reliant on clones and shattering. I don’t necessarily have an issue with phantasms as you just cast them and they deal a lot of damage. I just want their cast time reduced.

Also for the next E-spec, if they give the Mesmers an illusionary form, it can almost work the same as death shroud or holosmith giving access to phantasmal melee/range attacks dealing good damage and inflicting confusion & torment.

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Unfortunately, there are to many core traits revolving around shatters (and having different effects for each shatter) for ANet to be able to safely remove them. Those traits make the mesmer's main mechanism rigid to the point that the idea, while attractive, seem unreasonable.

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@Tseison.4659 said:

Well to be fair, no one asked for them to remove Hexes/Interrupts which I felt were Mesmers real identity in the original game and it’s not like they couldn’t add hexes in GW2

That was something that did bug me early on in GW2. Mesmer in this game plays as a completely different class with a similar theme. Still, I have grown extremely attached to GW2 Mesmer over the course of 8 years, which is why I specified that it would remove the identity of Guild Wars 2 Mesmer specifically. If they did go that route I'm sure I could still find enjoyment out of the spec, but I would much prefer they rework phantasms than clone/shatter mechanics.

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@Dadnir.5038 said:Unfortunately, there are to many core traits revolving around shatters (and having different effects for each shatter) for ANet to be able to safely remove them. Those traits make the mesmer's main mechanism rigid to the point that the idea, while attractive, seem unreasonable.

they could very well have those traits do different things for the e-spec.similar how GM trait gives reflect to disort but extends Csplit.And they dont even have to be all that different, IF the new espec is similar to how FB works then you can have things like ( when you whip out F2 instrument, blind nearby foes. or F2 instrument skill X blinds foes in its area of effect )Master of fragmentation? F1 instrument skills have increased critical chance, to make it balanced maybe +10% instead.Or even if they care they can simply replace the traits compleatly when you take e-spec, all it would take is designing couple new traits.But as always it just takes effort.

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I have very little to offer beyond what has been stated by others prior to now: It would erode the identity of one of the most unique RPG classes I've ever played, alongside that there are so many other mechanics tied into it you'd pretty much have to create a new class. It'd be like removing the teleport-dash-punch from Vanguard in Mass Effect 3.

On top of that? I actually really enjoy the rhythm of shattering clones and then recreating them—It's one of the most thrilling things about the profession for me. I suppose I'd not be able to put my finger on exactly why, but it has much to do with the aforementioned novelty of it. I haven't played anything else that's really like that, why dismiss that which has worth?

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@"Hypnowulf.7403" said:I have very little to offer beyond what has been stated by others prior to now: It would erode the identity of one of the most unique RPG classes I've ever played, alongside that there are so many other mechanics tied into it you'd pretty much have to create a new class. It'd be like removing the teleport-dash-punch from Vanguard in Mass Effect 3.

On top of that? I actually really enjoy the rhythm of shattering clones and then recreating them—It's one of the most thrilling things about the profession for me. I suppose I'd not be able to put my finger on exactly why, but it has much to do with the aforementioned novelty of it. I haven't played anything else that's really like that, why dismiss that which has worth?

Well, mesmer for a long time was, "spawn 3 phantasms and do DPS while casually strolling around" kind of thing. There were shatter builds, but none generated clones as effective as they do now since anet reworked phantasms.

And that is one change i actually agree with, it's way more fun shattering clones, pumping new ones out, especially on Mirage in WvW, and with clone switching capabilities, you were very much the master of illusions and felt like one. That is, until they removed a dodge and now it's just sad how bad Mirage is. Still, it's fun in PvE as well, but you're not really "decieving" anyone in PvE, those are just AIs with preprogrammed behaviour and zero interaction with your clones.

Still, i'd be ok with returning the permanent phantasm style if they gave a new facelift in the elite. Shatters could be "buffs" for phanasms instead of spawning clones, and maybe clone generating skills on weapons would work as some sort of mechanics for phantasm like, special attacks or something so that the gameplay would be more involved than just summon and forget.

But at the end of the day, that would mean reworking ALL weapons for that 1 elite specialization and it's unlikely to happen, not to mention, other traitlines would need to work for phantasms as well in some capacity.

So yeah, no for me because i like the shatterer playstyle and because it would probably be too much broken with it, and not in a good way.

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@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Dadnir.5038 said:Unfortunately, there are to many core traits revolving around shatters (and having different effects for each shatter) for ANet to be able to safely remove them. Those traits make the mesmer's main mechanism rigid to the point that the idea, while attractive, seem unreasonable.

they could very well have those traits do different things for the e-spec.similar how GM trait gives reflect to disort but extends Csplit.And they dont even have to be all that different, IF the new espec is similar to how FB works then you can have things like ( when you whip out F2 instrument, blind nearby foes. or F2 instrument skill X blinds foes in its area of effect )Master of fragmentation? F1 instrument skills have increased critical chance, to make it balanced maybe +10% instead.Or even if they care they can simply replace the traits compleatly when you take e-spec, all it would take is designing couple new traits.But as always it just takes effort.

This. As long as whatever replaces the shatters are skills with broadly the same purpose (F1 deals power damage, F2 inflicts conditions, F3 is CC, and F4 is defensive), there's no reason why the existing shatter traits couldn't work with them. Particularly since with the traits that affect F4, ArenaNet has already shown that they're willing to change the effect of the trait based on whether you're running Chronomancer or not, so something similar could also apply to any hypothetical non-shattering elite spec.

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They should just make the clones last longer and buff the hp so clones are better and just use the destruction of clones as some sorta way to make the clones stronger somehow 1 and cc or something like that. Might as well find some way to make clones excell somehow if they are so weak that they get insta destroyed.

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@"Yoci.2481" said:What we will get: A single clone that works sort of like a Soulbeast pet. Phantasm skills will switch the type of the pet.

I like this idea but will tweak it by having it so we get an "Illusionary Form" F1-F4" which gives us access to different skills depending on the form we're in. Clone/Phantasmal won't spawn anything and will just increase the duration of the form by 1 second. So essentially the illusionary form takes inspiration from Death Shroud and the "Break Illusion to Defeat" that the White Mantle Mesmers have. OR This could also be made into an Elite with a high cooldown which would be the same as Warriors Rampage form but taking damage will break the form faster and not affect your actual health bar until it's gone.

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@Axl.8924 said:They should just make the clones last longer and buff the hp so clones are better and just use the destruction of clones as some sorta way to make the clones stronger somehow 1 and cc or something like that. Might as well find some way to make clones excell somehow if they are so weak that they get insta destroyed.

Yeah but this should be done for core mesmer, not just the elite.

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@Hypnowulf.7403 said:I have very little to offer beyond what has been stated by others prior to now: It would erode the identity of one of the most unique RPG classes I've ever played, alongside that there are so many other mechanics tied into it you'd pretty much have to create a new class. It'd be like removing the teleport-dash-punch from Vanguard in Mass Effect 3.

On top of that? I actually really enjoy the rhythm of shattering clones and then recreating them—It's one of the most thrilling things about the profession for me. I suppose I'd not be able to put my finger on exactly why, but it has much to do with the aforementioned novelty of it. I haven't played anything else that's really like that, why dismiss that which has worth?

They removed the classic shroud of necromancers with Scourge and gave them shades as a mechanic and it worked out just fine. I wish they would do something similar to the mesmer to give them more diversity and uniqueness than just having shatters all the time!

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@Sodeni.6041 said:

@Hypnowulf.7403 said:I have very little to offer beyond what has been stated by others prior to now: It would erode the identity of one of the most unique RPG classes I've ever played, alongside that there are so many other mechanics tied into it you'd pretty much have to create a new class. It'd be like removing the teleport-dash-punch from Vanguard in Mass Effect 3.

On top of that? I actually really enjoy the rhythm of shattering clones and then recreating them—It's one of the most thrilling things about the profession for me. I suppose I'd not be able to put my finger on exactly why, but it has much to do with the aforementioned novelty of it. I haven't played anything else that's really like that, why dismiss that which has worth?

They removed the classic shroud of necromancers with Scourge and gave them shades as a mechanic and it worked out just fine. I wish they would do something similar to the mesmer to give them more diversity and uniqueness than just having shatters all the time!

They should make the hp slightly higher but not too high and make the shatters really hurt a lot more for the difficulty in shattering. There should be a high reward in massive damage since your illusions have low hp anyways and maybe have F1 buttons on core to buff illusions maybe sacrifice all illusions but keeps the clones and sacrificing them makes clones stronger faster.

Then again i'm no expert so you tell me would this be logical?

My idea: Chronomancer low sustain as team player shatterer: Force enemies to think: OK its a chronomancer the shatters really hurt, and if i don't pay attention and destroy the clones, i'm dead meat. Maybe for instance with help of team mates your rewarded by killing people with those huge shatters of 15k dmg or something.

If they stay low hp, and in my opinion for the dmg shatters should do and be rewarded, should stay low hp giving a counter to shatters.

For core: If they could change the way core f1's work, so you can only buff clones the way i said with F1 buttons and managing your clones and illusions.

I am actually mainly thinking of SPVP right now, but maybe this can somehow be incorporated into WVW?

It would make chrono more viable and give a fun reward in that if you land a shatter you are rewarded for it and your enemies punished for not being careful enough

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