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WvW Soul beast needs a giant nerf!


asterix.9614

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I have been roaming as a soulbeast for a month now, just to see why people were complaining about it so much. Jeebus, it's op, insane ranged damage, stealth field and stealth, really good condi cleanse and heal and able to traverse very long distances with gs and bird pet. I am not requesting a nerf for druid or core however no doubt if soulbeast was nerfed core would probably be affected as well. I think when it comes to utility skill the main problem is sic em, one wolf pack and entangle. The lb skill 2 is just stupidly op and smokescale smoke field and the soulbeast skill 2 is just stupid, it's like having a pocket rev/ thief. In terms of trait I found opressive superiority to be a tad op for something that weilds a long ranged high dps long bow. Anyway, yes most of the rangers in wvw are noobs, but ranger really needs a good looking at.I know I will get hate and get good comments, I personally don't care. I have taken the time to actually play soulbeast for a whole month and I am just giving my "findings".

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Boonbeast is pretty strong, yeah. It is probably the strongest option for a boon-tank type of build. It sounds more like you are complaining about glassy builds that are apt at farming inexperienced players or players not built for smaller-scale content though. Those builds have quite alot of holes in their game and pretty scuffed envelopes when looking at what other builds are popular, so your findings come off as limited even if you played it for a whole month.

Overall, there are other builds that are more oppressive at the lower end and there are certainly other builds that are more prevalent at the higher end.

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The issue with soulbeast is more that it's extremely easy to be extremely effective with and with almost zero risk. Boonbeast is more OP, but the glassier variants are super oppressive for how easy they are to play.

You compare something like an unskilled thief to an unskilled soulbeast, and the former is often a free bag that dies to a stiff breeze whereas the latter poses a threat to kill you based on some circumstantial conditions of the fight and how kitted out your build is to directly dealing with them.

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Soulbeast can be very oppressive, but as @LetoII.3782 mentioned, almost every class has this option in at least one form. It sucks to get SIc 'Em memed just like it sucks to get oneshot in general. Getting oneshot by a Sic 'Em Soulbeast feels about as bad as getting oneshot by a Deadeye or a core Mes because the time frame to react and save yourself is very low if they play their cards correctly. Still though, I don't really think the Sic 'Em meme should be nerfed further simply because it is highly neutered in any larger scale combat that isn't just a cloud of pugs. It has its niche but fight a group with a magnetic aura spam Tempest and it won't feel so powerful. IMO the only problematic thing left about Soulbeast is Dolyak Stance. The skill is extremely stacked, especially for just a 30s cooldown. It should have never received a damage/condi damage reduction component to it, simple as that.

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I suppose the most annoying thing is the mobility. It's pretty hard to be caught on a soulbeast. You can of course escape even better with deadeye but then you aren't that effective.

But then again that's just the issue with roaming; there's no reason to not abuse mobility. Still beats roaming with full supports though.

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@"ArchonWing.9480" said:I suppose the most annoying thing is the mobility. It's pretty hard to be caught on a soulbeast. You can of course escape even better with deadeye but then you aren't that effective.Which is my biggest issue too. Most soulbeasts are overloaded on offensive power and quick to run away at range but weak to pressure and have a very predictive melee cycle - if there is no reaper/scourge around they are my primary target to pull in and burst. The more "balanced" bunker druids that can be 3000+ distance away in seconds or entangle you for 20+ seconds straight is far more annoying.

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Dolyak Stance is one of the biggest offenders.

33% damage reduction33% Condition damage reductionImmune to movement impairing Conditions6 stacks of StabilityStunbreak30 second recharge

This is practically an elite skill. It makes you immune to all form of CC, on top of giving a Protection effect that cannot be removed that also effects Conditions.Removing the 33% damage/Condition damage reduction, and changing it so that it only reduces the duration of movement impairing Conditions, would make this skill a lot less overloaded, but still strong.

Next, "Sic 'Em!" should apply Exhaustion to the Ranger for 3 seconds after use.

And lastly, Smoke Scale's merged skill, Smoke Assault, needs one of two changes;Range reduced to 350, or give it a cast time.Right now it has double the range of Unrelenting Assault, no cast time, and can be enhanced with "Sic Em!" to deal nearly as much damage, on less than double the recharge.

These are targeted changes because this is how balancing should be done. These things will effect Soulbeast and Soulbeast only. Not Druid or core. They are things that have been over performing and overlooked for a long time, and the spec will not die with these changes.

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The OP just wants ranger nerfed so he can switch back to his thief main and not have to worry about a class he has trouble against.Roaming isn't the main part of the game- and against any sort of organisation soul beasts aren't that strong.Sic Em could be removed entirely as I generally don't run it on my mainly zerging/group ranger, there are more useful skills to bring as utility.Dolyak stance is a life saver, without which spike damage from stealth would wipe you out before you can move.

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@spankyed.4735 said:Another crying player who doesnt know how to evade LB burst! Soulbeasts have been nerfed alrdy !P.S nerf soulbeasts roaming potential and u can completely remove rangers from WvW!

That would be fine to me, seeing unskilled players able to kill you because hard carried by a low risk high reward build is never good, same faith for condi heralds and granade scrappers/holos.

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@Baldrick.8967 said:The OP just wants ranger nerfed so he can switch back to his thief main and not have to worry about a class he has trouble against.Roaming isn't the main part of the game- and against any sort of organisation soul beasts aren't that strong.Sic Em could be removed entirely as I generally don't run it on my mainly zerging/group ranger, there are more useful skills to bring as utility.Dolyak stance is a life saver, without which spike damage from stealth would wipe you out before you can move.

I have played engi and it's elite specs for a long ass time, I can assure you that I have no trouble with pew pew ranger lol. I just wanted to see why people were complaining about it so much. Also I have never, ever used grenade anything on core, scrapper or holo, stop making presumptions lol...

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@Shroud.2307 said:These are targeted changes because this is how balancing should be done. These things will effect Soulbeast and Soulbeast only. Not Druid or core. They are things that have been over performing and overlooked for a long time, and the spec will not die with these changes.Your suggestions are pretty close to be good but clearly don't play with ranger which shows.

BoonBeast is not a thing anymore. It is very difficult to keep up the boon uptime although the Soulbeast can have a some moments where it can get a burst of boons.The main culprit of the efficiency of the tanky builds is the Axe Mainhand. That weapon does too much damage compared with the range and utility bought (weakness + chilled) . Without that weapon the tanky builds would be just that, tanky builds.

In this thread i pointed out the reasons of why Axe mainhand needs a nerf and how to do it easy as it doesn't need much fiddlering.https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/120143/nerfs-the-ranger-class-as-a-whole-needs-please-anet

@Shroud.2307 said:Dolyak Stance is one of the biggest offenders.

33% damage reduction33% Condition damage reductionImmune to movement impairing Conditions6 stacks of StabilityStunbreak30 second rechargeDolyak stance is over bloated you are correct. What I would do is to place the damage reduction into the Bear stance not because the stance is busted but to make other stances more useful. Right now Bear stance extra healing is basically negated by the condition ticks it is supposed to cleanse. And reduce the CD in SPvP to 40s.There are other stances which would need small adjustments like Moa (reduce the duration of the stance to 6s), Vulture(it needs to apply bleeds additionally) and Griffon (It needs to add an stun break) . And normalize all stance durations to 6s base (nerf to Moa and One Wolf Pack and a buff to Bear )

@Shroud.2307 said:This is practically an elite skill. It makes you immune to all form of CC, on top of giving a Protection effect that cannot be removed that also effects Conditions.Removing the 33% damage/Condition damage reduction, and changing it so that it only reduces the duration of movement impairing Conditions, would make this skill a lot less overloaded, but still strong.

Next, "Sic 'Em!" should apply Exhaustion to the Ranger for 3 seconds after use.That idea sounds interesting but then other classes in the game with an skill which gives a plain damage modifier should get the same treatment. List a followed:

  1. Herald  Burst of Strength — Legendary Dragon Stance, Consume
  2. Spellbreaker Break Enchantments — Meditation
  3. Deadeye Shadow Flare — Cantrip
  4. Elementalist Glyph of Elemental Power — Glyph
  5. Mesmer  Phantasmal Defender — Phantasm

And other utilities which provide a similar effect like Assassin's Signet should get the same treatment.

@Shroud.2307 said:And lastly, Smoke Scale's merged skill, Smoke Assault, needs one of two changes;Range reduced to 350, or give it a cast time.Right now it has double the range of Unrelenting Assault, no cast time, and can be enhanced with "Sic Em!" to deal nearly as much damage, on less than double the recharge.Those skills and pets are fine not only the class does not need a nerf there but it would need more pets to have the same type of utility skills (teleport / leaps, evades, etc...). The ranger in general needs better designed pets it is it's main mechanics and it shows very clearly it has not being taken care of.

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Since ranger has no real boon removal nor any proper unblockable anymore from range and with the damage nerfed by nearly 30-50% since feb patch i don't rly see how one can still die if prepared and aware on an inc ranger, sure you can still get caught out if you're spend but any other class would do the same to you at that point.

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A whole month...woah.

Why do people bring up stealth on SB? I don't think I've ever seen another ranger use smokescales field for stealth, and hunter's shot is super unreliable vs anything with a brain.

I would like to see more stability for non-SB so would be in favor of something else granting it instead of only dolyak stance. Yes, I know SotP exists...it just isn't very good (and is an elite).

I don't think we should be nerfing dolyak though as the half baked stealth access on most specs does not cover the huge risk of being CC'd. Unfairly so as ranger does not have a teleport either.

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@anduriell.6280 said:Your suggestions are pretty close to be good but clearly don't play with ranger which shows.

BoonBeast is not a thing anymore. It is very difficult to keep up the boon uptime although the Soulbeast can have a some moments where it can get a burst of boons.The main culprit of the efficiency of the tanky builds is the Axe Mainhand. That weapon does too much damage compared with the range and utility bought (weakness + chilled) . Without that weapon the tanky builds would be just that, tanky builds.

Maybe I misunderstand what you're saying, but I have many ( over 4k ) hours on Ranger, and it is my second oldest character approaching its 7th birthday.I've also fought many, many, many Rangers.

Boonbeast is still a thing. It's less faceroll, but still forgiving. There is actually a core Ranger version of the Boonbeast build that is even more tanky and with better Condition cleanse, but slightly less damage.Longbow Boonbeast has never been as good as the GS + X (typically full melee or with Axe mainhand) variant, but it is still plenty strong. I know of a particular player who uses a Boon build with GS + Longbow and is absurdly tanky despite also dealing very heavy damage. I don't know what his armor is, but I'm assuming a mixture of Marauder and Commander or Diviner + Durability runes.

I want to be clear that I really don't care whether it does or doesn't get nerfed, it's in a much better place than it used to be. I just like to discuss balance when threads like these come up because often times people ask for blanket nerfs without considering how it affects the role of the class or the balance of the class as a whole.I appreciate your input, although I don't agree with all of it, but I do 110% agree with this-

The ranger in general needs better designed pets it is it's main mechanics and it shows very clearly it has not being taken care of.

Ranger is in serious need of pet rebalancing because only a handful are useful, while the rest have skill recharges and effects that are relics of pre-expansions. Smoke Scale is waaayy too good compared to the rest of the pets, and I think many of them should be brought more in line with the versatility of Smoke Scale, rather than nerfing Smoke Scale if any changes to pets were to be made.

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@Shroud.2307 said:Maybe I misunderstand what you're saying, but I have many ( over 4k ) hours on Ranger, and it is my second oldest character approaching its 7th birthday.I've also fought many, many, many Rangers.I misunderstood you then, my apologies. We are in similar tier (just over 5K hours) mostly in WvW (which is seen in the amount of deaths i have) , same my second oldest character just passed the 7th birthday.

@Shroud.2307 said:Boonbeast is still a thing. It's less faceroll, but still forgiving. There is actually a core Ranger version of the Boonbeast build that is even more tanky and with better Condition cleanse, but slightly less damage.Longbow Boonbeast has never been as good as the GS + X (typically full melee or with Axe mainhand) variant, but it is still plenty strong. I know of a particular player who uses a Boon build with GS + Longbow and is absurdly tanky despite also dealing very heavy damage. I don't know what his armor is, but I'm assuming a mixture of Marauder and Commander or Diviner + Durability runes.

Well so we agree GS + Axe main hand, and Axe mainhand is used because of the easy access to might. Axe mainhand + We heal as One can keep perma 25 might which makes the autos in that setup to deal 3-4K. Full melee is not seen anymore in soulbeast, some core may use it as nostalgia build and for the extra mobility from sword.

Core is not a boon beast, Core has always (from the buff to the shout) been able to build for perma boon uptime with NM + BM ( bouncing boons to the pet and duplicate them with the shout) + WS for cleanses. We never had a problem with that one because a RF could deal max 4K, and i'm talking about core no sicem soulbeast.

Boonbeast was the Soulbeast variant, same tankiness but with much more burst potential. It made use of Fresh Reinforcement to replace NM traitline. That is not a thing anymore thou i don't remember which was the nerf which cause this.

The build you are talking about is this one: Marauder armor + Commander trinkets + durability runes. BM + WS + SB. It takes advantage of the might stacking from Axe Autos to deal constant damage (can keep 25 stacks of might almost constantly ) , GS is to boost Wintersbite (Maul for the buff and swap very 30 seconds) . Winterbite can deal more damage than a maul that way, ranged AoE which also apply chill and weakness. Durability runes are the main reason of the bulkiness of that build, 10% extra HP + protection + resistance every 20s. Put that together with WS and you have that extra tankiness. Which would be fine if the objective is to be tanky.

But still that build can deal a good amount of damage and the reason of that is because of the constant 3-4K autos (plus all the condi as extra) because of the 25 might. Obviously once you have 25 might and Fury even an RF will deal a good amount of damage.

I still think removing the might from the Axe autos and maybe reduce the buff duration to 5s from the Maul (Although i personally would remove it altogether) would be enough.

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Must be wary of nerfing core ranger weapons.On the pet note i must say they are nearly all due for an overhaul. Smokescale has seen multiple nerfs but is still a top tier pet. Close to 90 percent of pets go unused because their skillsets are from 2012(at the least). It is no wonder people wanted a way for rangers to drop the pet.

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@whoknocks.4935 said:

@spankyed.4735 said:Another crying player who doesnt know how to evade LB burst! Soulbeasts have been nerfed alrdy !P.S nerf soulbeasts roaming potential and u can completely remove rangers from WvW!

That would be fine to me, seeing unskilled players able to kill you because hard carried by a low risk high reward build is never good, same faith for condi heralds and granade scrappers/holos.

Unskilled players kill? If you aren’t a skilled player you aren’t going to kill anyone that has skill. I eat most rangers of any flavour if they aren’t real good. I’m not the best player by far but I know my class very well. Oh ya, I play soulbeast exclusively. My fave thing is to plow down other rangers who give experienced rangers a bad name. Anyone can learn to do burst damage, and anyone can learn how to deal with it. The key is knowing when to hit and when to duuuck.

My personal favourite is when someone ganks me from behind but I still manage to hit invul. That few seconds usually gets them killed because, well, they’re on cool down.

My squads keep me IN because I run some share and get tons of downs, but it makes me insane to see how many people use this class without USING IT properly!

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Cut down (or flat out remove) all of those multiplicative bonuses the Beastmastery and Soulbeast traitlines give to a soulbeast and buff core ranger damage. Core ranger damage is sufficiently pathetic that anything shy of bruiser-based builds is subpar in today's roaming meta.

As for Soulbeasts that press sic 'em & rapid fire... their rotation is literally the most predictable thing in the game, making even rifle deadeye look high-skill.

Druids are annoying with the roots but don't actually kill anything on their own -- unless you have literally 0 cleanses and they're allowed to ramp up those bleeds. IMO that spec needs a rework involving the reduction of immobilize applications, but whenever I bring it up Druid mains (all three of them) cry.

Also, since we're comparing lengths, 8k hours on ranger here. o/

~ Kovu

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@Kovu.7560 said:Cut down (or flat out remove) all of those multiplicative bonuses the Beastmastery and Soulbeast traitlines give to a soulbeast and buff core ranger damage. Core ranger damage is sufficiently pathetic that anything shy of bruiser-based builds is subpar in today's roaming meta.

As for Soulbeasts that press sic 'em & rapid fire... their rotation is literally the most predictable thing in the game, making even rifle deadeye look high-skill.

Druids are annoying with the roots but don't actually kill anything on their own -- unless you have literally 0 cleanses and they're allowed to ramp up those bleeds. IMO that spec needs a rework involving the reduction of immobilize applications, but whenever I bring it up Druid mains (all three of them) cry.

Also, since we're comparing lengths, 8k hours on ranger here. o/

~ Kovu

Only issue I see with that is that Soulbeast and Ranger become too similar, and they're already not very different. I think it makes sense for Soulbeast to be the high damage spec, it's just that the utility it has is superior to core as well which makes it almost a complete upgrade.

In my opinion, all Ranger pets need to be reviewed and the changes I listed earlier in this thread need to go through for Soulbeast. Then Soulbeast could get some small damage buffs here and there, be it Condition stacks/durations or coefficients. That way it can have the identity of being a heavy damage dealer (similar to Warrior -> Berserker or Necromancer -> Reaper) without inadvertently buffing it by changing any of the trait lines.

As for core, I think buffs should be mostly targeted at pets (even if that also benefits Soulbeast) because core can use two. Maybe even reworking a trait in Beast Mastery to work similarly to Zephyr's Speed that grants some of kind of effect on pet swap.Core Ranger can still do quite a lot of damage if you're glassy. And if you're not, it is a very good duelist/outnumbered fighter. As I'd said, there is a boon core build that is astoundingly tanky, even compared to the pre-nerf Soulbeast version, and it isn't the only bruiser build core can use effectively. I think it's just rare that anyone sees them because 99.9% of Rangers would rather go Soulbeast because it's easy mode.

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