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Why waste resources on this unwanted game mode that is "Living World"


Kirin.7306

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I think sometimes people post about living world in general discussion area.Also, forum numbers aren't a very reliable number of how many people play /any/ mode in the game. Honestly the 3 month updates were the only reason i kept logging back into the game.

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People(besides those who are at home here) come here mainly to complain.That the forum of the LW has fewer posts than, for example, PVP must therefore not necessarily show that no one wants it, but rather that there are much fewer, thousand times fewer complaints than PVP.

I just strongly claim that Anet knows what is played most and you can see that in what they put their attention on it. Living World.Whether you like it or not is of course the other thing ^^.

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Number of threads and comments don't show that a gamemode is "unwanted", if anything, It show that this "gamemode" don't have to many issues.

  • sPvP is a permanent brawl for balance arguments, lack of PvP diversity, shrinking player population and ever rising bot population.
  • WvW is quite similar to sPvP, being thanksfully free from the bot issue.
  • GW2 discusion is an extremly wide subject box.
  • Fractal and donjon is all about bugs and arguments between players that want to get in and players that want to finish their run quickly.
  • Player helping player is for random questions about the game.
  • Lore is all about, well, LORE.
  • Profession is the outlet for disappointed players in which each and everyone know that they can argue for hours about their professions there, in the end it's in the sPvP subforum that balance will be decided.

Ultimately, the truth is that sPvP, WvW, fractal and donjon subforums taken together express the concern of maybe 5% of GW2 population (yeah I'm extremly generous there). Ultimately, whether these 5% want the LW or not isn't important, what's important is that the other 95% are kept busy and satisfied.

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I just strongly claim that Anet knows what is played most and you can see that in what they put their attention on it. Living World. Whether you like it or not is of course the other thing ^^.

This is a real good point. I honestly think LW is the main content and people which play this content are main player base of this game. I assume those are also the players which spend the most money on the in game store. Also i recognized there are not this much heavy complains about LS overall. To me it seems ANet delivers suitable content to the main player base which is reagarded at least as okayish. Also i think LS and how it works and is concepted attracts a lot of mmo hopper and just play the new episode type of players. Those kind of players are imo not that passionated about the game than players which plays comeptetive game modes or do the high tier pve endgame content. Also i feel that the raid/high end tier fractal runners/pvp/wvw population is shrinking overall. I see more and more really dedicated people not loggin on regulary or at all. I had a really big dip on those players on my friend list about 4 months ago and it seems to continuing that more and more people i know wich are or was really invested into this game take a really long break or just left to another game.

Edit: I like the LS stuff. I would even promote to get more people into LS design in hope to get a better quality out of it. ATM it feels like they mainly focusing on the next xpac and miss the opportunity the get a big hit on the rebranding from LS into the saga stuff....

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The primary content in any game is going to be the narrative. I could speculate on why this is but it'd be madness. I mean, most games wouldn't be fun to play unless they had a good narrative. Even games with mechanics as interesting as the older Thief titles might not have been so compelling were they not rife with interesting tales and wonderful characters.

I think it's because if a person plays a video game that isn't just a run-of-the-mill triple-A mainstream title, they're probably playing it for escapism. I'd imagine this could suggest what's generally a more introverted audience who're less competitive on average. I see competition more commonplace in titles more geared towards extraversion. I think this is something that the industry has noticed going by the games they're making now. It's my opinion that—moving forward—any new MMOs probably won't deal with PvP, WvW, or anything of its ilk.

I will stress here... Disclaimer: This is all my opinion and speculation based upon observations.

The only thing I can tell you for sure is that it's obvious that raids, PvP, and WvW aren't that profitable. That's what we can observe for certain. The reason why? I can only guess, I suppose that's true for all of us. We can only guess.

If we look at the evidence, however, it's obvious where the profitability is based upon ArenaNet's focus. They can clearly tell which content is played most, which is the most profitable, and thus which is the most popular. On top of that? They can probably use the data they have to link who pays more money with what content is played. I can't imagine they wouldn't have that data.

I've interviewed PvPers and raiders, even casual raiders, and there's one conceit that I found quite commonly—they don't buy gems, they convert gold. So what of PvE players and roleplayers alike? They buy gems. I buy gems and I am of that latter group! There are things I wish they would add as well to profit upon their most profitable users, since what their data can't tell them is what we want to buy.

What I'd like to see is more dragon outfits and armour for roleplaying—suited to all of the dragons, including Aurene, as the largest contingent of roleplayers in GW2 seems to be dragon-branded. It's hardly surprising. On top of that? I'd like to see player-housing. I think that guild halls are a bit of a failure and this is one thing that both ESO and FF XIV did better. Player-housing is a better commonual space than guild halls.

Anyway, no amount of sound and fury on the forums is going to change ArenaNet's data. As someone who wants to see this game survive, I offer this: If you want your favourite content to become more popular? Put your money where your mouth is. Buy gems.

That's all I have for you. If you never put any money towards the ongoing needs of the game—to sate the greedy corporate beast that is NCSoft—then don't you think it might be a little obnoxious to make demands and hand down edicts to ArenaNet about what they should or shouldn't be developing? The reason they aren't focused on the game modes you like is because... they aren't profitable.

That's all there is. It's logic. If what you wanted was profitable, ArenaNet would be working on it already because their data would tell them that it's profitable. That their data is saying the exact opposite is what you need to deal with. And if you don't care to put your money where your mouth is, your favourite content will continue to be unprofitable because you make it that way. This is what every MMO develope rhas to realise in the end, either that or they sink—like WildStar.

I don't want Guild Wars 2 to be another WildStar, so I'm personally glad that ArenaNet has their priorities in order. You can't blame them for this. As I said, they have a greedy corporate Master to appease, there's no avoiding or getting around that.

So it's up to you to fix how profitable you appear. It's clear that right now? It isn't very.

As of now: The people who play PvE and roleplay are the most profitable groups, those who crave the escapism of Guild Wars 2 and are happy to pay for the experience. The reason I'm here is because people who're happy don't bloody post, that's a really troublesome human habit. People only post to air dissatisfaction.

ArenaNet knows what's profitable, so they ignore it, but you don't. That's why we keep getting these threads of sound and fury, from posters who have to know they'll result in nothing. You have to know a forum post won't change things, right?

You can take this as an attack, if you like, but I'm actually trying to help. Well... I don't like raiding because operant conditioning chambers are unhealthy and the addiction cannot be maintained over time, as I've explained elsewhere. It leads to new difficulty modes being added until the ceaseless climb becomes unavoidably ludicrous. Hard, Very Hard, Super Hard, Ultra Hard, Mega-Ultra Hard, X-Edition L33T Hard... It doesn't stop. That's how it is with any drug, you just need a bigger hit. It's unsustainable and a bad idea.

PvP however, whilst it can still be quite toxic due to bad actors competing, it doesn't have the inherent insustainability of raids. For raiders, I'd suggest just... chase the inverse-meta. Find the most ludicrously underpowered builds and win with those, then brag about it on YouTube. It's not profitable or sustainable for ArenaNet to produce ongoing raids. Even strikes will die soon, I can guarantee that. That's someone pushing for this content in ArenaNet despite their lack of profitability. I worry they'll have the sense to realise before it hurts them.

The thing is? NCSoft wants money. They're a business, a publisher, one full of executives that see the bottom-line as their only consideration. They killed City of Heroes because it wasn't profitable, they killed off WildStar for the same reason. They've been good about Guild Wars 2, but I can only guess that's because thus far it's managing to be profitable. So that's something we can feel fortunate for.

This is also why, to wit, it's harmful to you to be negative about whales. They're the ones sating and appeasing the appetite of the ever-hungry NCSoft. A good portion of GW2's profitability comes from them. I whale whenever I can afford it. I know the cold, hard truth of capitalism. I don't like it, but I want Guild Wars 2 to survive.

So to say this until I'm blue in the face: ArenaNet must do what's profitable. If they don't, the game dies. Living World is profitable, expansions are profitable, any story-based content is profitable. The next most profitable content is open world. After that? Errr... Nothing. Raids aren't. PvP isn't. WvW isn't. That's not ArenaNet's fault, that's the fault of those who take advantage of being able to convert gold to gems and never put out any money on the game.

I'm trying my best to explain this. All ArenaNet can do is look at their data and thinkah, these are the players who give us the most money, and this is the content they play. Right now, that's story content. it's clearly story content.

If you want PvP or WvW to be profitable? Make it so. Only you have that power.

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The forums arent representative of popularity. As much as I dislike the focus on living world development, its the gamemode that the majority of players actually play. The real question is whether or not gw2 could have focused on other gamemodes and been more successful, but it just ends up being speculation. This is the state of the game, like it or not.

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@Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:The forums arent representative of popularity. As much as I dislike the focus on living world development, its the gamemode that the majority of players actually play. The real question is whether or not gw2 could have focused on other gamemodes and been more successful, but it just ends up being speculation. This is the state of the game, like it or not.

This. A lot of people go crazy for Living World and they probably never come to the forums. The excitement has tempered somewhat with recent episodes, but even the forums used to get very excited every episode. Social media tends to see a lot of positivity towards the Living World certainly

As Para says, the forums are not representative. They are merely a section of the community. And most of us prob only see the english language forums.

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Living World likely is the most popular "game mode", since it's PvE and PvE is what drives the vast majority of players.Less people writing on the forums about it only means there are less people complaining about it.

Less forum posts has no bearing on the popularity.

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Yes there are 286 discussions and 4.7k comments in the living world sub-forum. However, keep in mind that this particular forum was created on May 26th, 2020, the rest of the forums have been with us since September 12, 2017. So obviously this forum is gonna have very few discussions and comments compared to the others.

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The original poster has no concept of how to run a business. Imagine if a developer went by the amount of complaint threads in a forum.

Even if you just step back from this game's stats a minute you will see the reality. Casual players by definition aren't interested in power (as in stats or "winning") but the new shiny things and content that has new experiences (the RPG part of MMORPG).

Bartle taxonomy dictates that there's four major types of players: achievers, explorers, socializers, killers. The only group that this game isn't well suited for is killers which is subdivided into politicians (people that want a big reputation ... there's only a handful of people with enough coverage for this to apply , large guild leaders would be a part of this subgroup) and griefers (people that want a reputation for being bad , mainly because PVP afking is bannable as well as hacking or botting while PKing isn't ingame so mainly the things people do that would be considered griefing are removed from the game other than WvW players throwing siege on the enemy).

Mobile games make up 51% of the overall gaming share right now, with consoles and PC splitting the rest more or less. Of those 51% most of the revenue is off casual games which is why I don't think people invested in more niche content such as raids (which you can't win simply by out-gearing) or PVP (which you can't win simply by out-gearing or out-grinding) should get their hopes up for the same cadence as Living Story or open-world. This year we had a fractal with a CM added so "hardcore" content is still being made. As a business you go where the money is while attempting to not abandon your minor customers completely. If you go by which section of your consumer-base has the most complaints that is a sure way to go bankrupt.

Accessibility both hardware-wise and content-wise (i.e. for max stat gear not things that just award skins , optional mastery points, or achievement points) is going to be key to set it apart moving forward. GW2 has a reputation as a casual game (and even touted it at launch as a game you can put down any time and pick up again) and they should capitalize on it to gain market-share rather than making grindy content. Even in the past I have suggested more ways to make the playing field more level: I was against having a stat bonus on ascended and legendaries (i.e. they could have just been agony resistance slots instead of straight up stronger) , easier overall access to ascended armor/trinkets/weapons now that the damage has been done, lower required WvW rank for full WvW masteries (it's over 1K rank right now and even if I am well over that it doesn't bode well for newcomers), less grind achievements for completion of story or masteries, etc.

Imagine if the canceled GW2 sideproject was porting to mobile (recent iphones, iPads, later gen Android phones) so that people could play the Living Story and everything openworld off Geforce Now or Google Stadia as well as the actual device. The canceled project had something to do with mobile , so it is obvious that Arenanet knows that is the direction they need to be headed if they cannot gain more players off PC.

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@Hypnowulf.7403 said:I've interviewed PvPers and raiders, even casual raiders, and there's one conceit that I found quite commonly—they don't buy gems, they convert gold. So what of PvE players and roleplayers alike? They buy gems. I buy gems and I am of that latter group! There are things I wish they would add as well to profit upon their most profitable users, since what their data can't tell them is what we want to buy.

I'm curious about your sample size for your interviews and which platform you used for it to get varied data from as many people as possible. I did a small exercise today, asking during a Thunderhead Keep meta how many players in the squad are actually buying gems, got no answer. So... meta players don't pay gems?

They killed City of Heroes because it wasn't profitable, they killed off WildStar for the same reason. They've been good about Guild Wars 2, but I can only guess that's because thus far it's managing to be profitable. So that's something we can feel fortunate for.

Guild Wars 2 in its WORSE quarter so far, Q4 2019, made more money than City of Heroes or Wildstar did in an entire year at the time of their closure.

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@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Hypnowulf.7403 said:I've interviewed PvPers and raiders, even casual raiders, and there's one conceit that I found quite commonly—they don't buy gems, they convert gold. So what of PvE players and roleplayers alike? They buy gems. I buy gems and I am of that latter group! There are things I wish they would add as well to profit upon their most profitable users, since what their data can't tell them is what we want to
buy
.

I'm curious about your sample size for your interviews and which platform you used for it to get varied data from as many people as possible. I did a small exercise today, asking during a Thunderhead Keep meta how many players in the squad are actually buying gems, got no answer. So... meta players don't pay gems?

They killed City of Heroes because it wasn't profitable, they killed off WildStar for the same reason. They've been good about Guild Wars 2, but I can only guess that's because thus far it's managing to be profitable. So that's something we can feel fortunate for.

Guild Wars 2 in its WORSE quarter so far, Q4 2019, made more money than City of Heroes or Wildstar did in an entire year at the time of their closure.

We don't need interviews with players to figure out what game modes make money ... we know based on where Anet focuses development of the game.

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@Obtena.7952 said:

@"Hypnowulf.7403" said:I've interviewed PvPers and raiders, even casual raiders, and there's one conceit that I found quite commonly—they don't buy gems, they convert gold. So what of PvE players and roleplayers alike? They buy gems. I buy gems and I am of that latter group! There are things I wish they would add as well to profit upon their most profitable users, since what their data can't tell them is what we want to
buy
.

I'm curious about your sample size for your interviews and which platform you used for it to get varied data from as many people as possible. I did a small exercise today, asking during a Thunderhead Keep meta how many players in the squad are actually buying gems, got no answer. So... meta players don't pay gems?

They killed City of Heroes because it wasn't profitable, they killed off WildStar for the same reason. They've been good about Guild Wars 2, but I can only guess that's because thus far it's managing to be profitable. So that's something we can feel fortunate for.

Guild Wars 2 in its WORSE quarter so far, Q4 2019, made more money than City of Heroes or Wildstar did in an entire year at the time of their closure.

We don't need interviews with players to figure out what game modes make money ... we know based on where Anet focuses development of the game.

What you are saying is that they are focusing their development on what makes money and not on what doesn't make money. That doesn't explain why their revenue is on a downward spiral though. You know if they "cut" the things that don't make money and focus only on those that make money, their revenue wouldn't suffer. That's probably because it's not the modes that make them money, after all no "mode" is monetized.

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@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Hypnowulf.7403 said:I've interviewed PvPers and raiders, even casual raiders, and there's one conceit that I found quite commonly—they don't buy gems, they convert gold. So what of PvE players and roleplayers alike? They buy gems. I buy gems and I am of that latter group! There are things I wish they would add as well to profit upon their most profitable users, since what their data can't tell them is what we want to
buy
.

I'm curious about your sample size for your interviews and which platform you used for it to get varied data from as many people as possible. I did a small exercise today, asking during a Thunderhead Keep meta how many players in the squad are actually buying gems, got no answer. So... meta players don't pay gems?

They killed City of Heroes because it wasn't profitable, they killed off WildStar for the same reason. They've been good about Guild Wars 2, but I can only guess that's because thus far it's managing to be profitable. So that's something we can feel fortunate for.

Guild Wars 2 in its WORSE quarter so far, Q4 2019, made more money than City of Heroes or Wildstar did in an entire year at the time of their closure.

We don't need interviews with players to figure out what game modes make money ... we know based on where Anet focuses development of the game.

What you are saying is that they are focusing their development on what makes money and not on what doesn't make money. That doesn't explain why their revenue is on a downward spiral though.

That's true it doesn't ... but it doesn't make what I said any less true. Anet focusing development on parts of the game that make them money doesn't say anything about what direction revenues will go.

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@Obtena.7952 said:

@Hypnowulf.7403 said:I've interviewed PvPers and raiders, even casual raiders, and there's one conceit that I found quite commonly—they don't buy gems, they convert gold. So what of PvE players and roleplayers alike? They buy gems. I buy gems and I am of that latter group! There are things I wish they would add as well to profit upon their most profitable users, since what their data can't tell them is what we want to
buy
.

I'm curious about your sample size for your interviews and which platform you used for it to get varied data from as many people as possible. I did a small exercise today, asking during a Thunderhead Keep meta how many players in the squad are actually buying gems, got no answer. So... meta players don't pay gems?

They killed City of Heroes because it wasn't profitable, they killed off WildStar for the same reason. They've been good about Guild Wars 2, but I can only guess that's because thus far it's managing to be profitable. So that's something we can feel fortunate for.

Guild Wars 2 in its WORSE quarter so far, Q4 2019, made more money than City of Heroes or Wildstar did in an entire year at the time of their closure.

We don't need interviews with players to figure out what game modes make money ... we know based on where Anet focuses development of the game.

What you are saying is that they are focusing their development on what makes money and not on what doesn't make money. That doesn't explain why their revenue is on a downward spiral though.

That's true it doesn't ... but it doesn't make what I said any less true. Anet focusing development on parts of the game that make them money doesn't say anything about what direction revenues will go.

If they indeed are focusing on what -content- makes them money then their revenue would go up. The only parts of the game that make them money are expansions and gem store items and yes they've been focusing a LOT on gem store items for a long time now.

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@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Hypnowulf.7403 said:I've interviewed PvPers and raiders, even casual raiders, and there's one conceit that I found quite commonly—they don't buy gems, they convert gold. So what of PvE players and roleplayers alike? They buy gems. I buy gems and I am of that latter group! There are things I wish they would add as well to profit upon their most profitable users, since what their data can't tell them is what we want to
buy
.

I'm curious about your sample size for your interviews and which platform you used for it to get varied data from as many people as possible. I did a small exercise today, asking during a Thunderhead Keep meta how many players in the squad are actually buying gems, got no answer. So... meta players don't pay gems?

They killed City of Heroes because it wasn't profitable, they killed off WildStar for the same reason. They've been good about Guild Wars 2, but I can only guess that's because thus far it's managing to be profitable. So that's something we can feel fortunate for.

Guild Wars 2 in its WORSE quarter so far, Q4 2019, made more money than City of Heroes or Wildstar did in an entire year at the time of their closure.

We don't need interviews with players to figure out what game modes make money ... we know based on where Anet focuses development of the game.

What you are saying is that they are focusing their development on what makes money and not on what doesn't make money. That doesn't explain why their revenue is on a downward spiral though.

That's true it doesn't ... but it doesn't make what I said any less true. Anet focusing development on parts of the game that make them money doesn't say anything about what direction revenues will go.

If they indeed are focusing on what -content- makes them money then their revenue would go up.

That's not necessarily true. Revenue is a much more complicated function of many things.

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@Obtena.7952 said:

@Hypnowulf.7403 said:I've interviewed PvPers and raiders, even casual raiders, and there's one conceit that I found quite commonly—they don't buy gems, they convert gold. So what of PvE players and roleplayers alike? They buy gems. I buy gems and I am of that latter group! There are things I wish they would add as well to profit upon their most profitable users, since what their data can't tell them is what we want to
buy
.

I'm curious about your sample size for your interviews and which platform you used for it to get varied data from as many people as possible. I did a small exercise today, asking during a Thunderhead Keep meta how many players in the squad are actually buying gems, got no answer. So... meta players don't pay gems?

They killed City of Heroes because it wasn't profitable, they killed off WildStar for the same reason. They've been good about Guild Wars 2, but I can only guess that's because thus far it's managing to be profitable. So that's something we can feel fortunate for.

Guild Wars 2 in its WORSE quarter so far, Q4 2019, made more money than City of Heroes or Wildstar did in an entire year at the time of their closure.

We don't need interviews with players to figure out what game modes make money ... we know based on where Anet focuses development of the game.

What you are saying is that they are focusing their development on what makes money and not on what doesn't make money. That doesn't explain why their revenue is on a downward spiral though.

That's true it doesn't ... but it doesn't make what I said any less true. Anet focusing development on parts of the game that make them money doesn't say anything about what direction revenues will go.

If they indeed are focusing on what -content- makes them money then their revenue would go up.

That's not necessarily true. Revenue is a much more complicated function of many things.

Revenue is complicated but what is making them money is not. How exactly does that work?

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@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Hypnowulf.7403 said:I've interviewed PvPers and raiders, even casual raiders, and there's one conceit that I found quite commonly—they don't buy gems, they convert gold. So what of PvE players and roleplayers alike? They buy gems. I buy gems and I am of that latter group! There are things I wish they would add as well to profit upon their most profitable users, since what their data can't tell them is what we want to
buy
.

I'm curious about your sample size for your interviews and which platform you used for it to get varied data from as many people as possible. I did a small exercise today, asking during a Thunderhead Keep meta how many players in the squad are actually buying gems, got no answer. So... meta players don't pay gems?

They killed City of Heroes because it wasn't profitable, they killed off WildStar for the same reason. They've been good about Guild Wars 2, but I can only guess that's because thus far it's managing to be profitable. So that's something we can feel fortunate for.

Guild Wars 2 in its WORSE quarter so far, Q4 2019, made more money than City of Heroes or Wildstar did in an entire year at the time of their closure.

We don't need interviews with players to figure out what game modes make money ... we know based on where Anet focuses development of the game.

What you are saying is that they are focusing their development on what makes money and not on what doesn't make money. That doesn't explain why their revenue is on a downward spiral though.

That's true it doesn't ... but it doesn't make what I said any less true. Anet focusing development on parts of the game that make them money doesn't say anything about what direction revenues will go.

If they indeed are focusing on what -content- makes them money then their revenue would go up.

That's not necessarily true. Revenue is a much more complicated function of many things.

Revenue is complicated but what is making them money is not. How exactly does that work?

I don't get your question ... I didn't claim what is making them money isn't complicated ... I'm not even sure what that means. Complicated how?

I do know that Anet can measure what people are doing and what they spend money on though. That will tell them where to focus development. I don't really understand whatever point you are trying to make here. Maybe you are just agreeing with me somehow?

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@"Obtena.7952" said:I do know that Anet can measure what people are doing and what they spend money on though.

What I'm saying is that content is -usually- not monetized, unless we are talking about an expansion. Meaning, what I spend my money on has very little to do with what content I play.

As for my question, you claim that revenue is complicated

Revenue is a much more complicated function of many things.

yet you also claim that we can figure out which game modes make more money.

We don't need interviews with players to figure out what game modes make money ... we know based on where Anet focuses development of the game.

"Make more money" means "higher revenue", otherwise what do you think "make more money" mean? If you have a choice between A and B, and you pick A because it makes more money than B, then isn't it obvious that revenue would also go up?

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@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:I do know that Anet can measure what people are doing and what they spend money on though.

What I'm saying is that content is -usually- not monetized, unless we are talking about an expansion. Meaning, what I spend my money on has very little to do with what content I play.

Right ... I'm not saying your spending is influenced by what content you play ... but there is still a relationship. For example, if all revenues come from players and total playing time in PVE and WvW is 80% and 20% respectively ... it's pretty obvious where Anet should focus development.

yet you also claim that we can figure out which game modes make more money.Yes ... Anet can measure played time each player spend in various game modes and can track how much each one of those players spend in the game. Do that for every player and add up the results. Done.

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