List of Tradeoffs - The Better Way to do Balance

[Xaylin.1860]

@draxynnic.3719 said:

@Xaylin.1860 said:The reason we still see baseline Guardians is mostly due to baseline traitline interactions, not due to e-spec trade-offs.

Which is one of the things I've been facepalming about with the whole 'tradeoff' thing for years now. The core traitline you

could

have otherwise had is the biggest tradeoff of all.

Well, I partly agree/disagree. Designing Elites to have trade-offs is as valid has having the loss off classic traitlines as trade-offs. However, this requires consistent design (philosophie) and implementation across all classes. And that's what ANet isn't good at, it seems. Still, I think we can agree, that Elite traitlines offer more than just traits (weapons, new skills/mechanics). So from a pure balance standpoint, overall traits would have to be worse or at least have worse interaction with the baseline class if you didn't want to implement any obvious trade-offs. Meaning, true sidegrades, not upgrades. I guess the issue with this approach is, that it's less fun when releasing add ons.

Amusingly, with the exception of former Elusive Mind all Mirage traits are and always have been pretty bad. So you would think it could work without a specific trade-off. Joke's on baseline Mesmer. While I still love the theme of Mirage, it's probably the messiest Elite implementation we've got. Not the most boring, mind you. But certainly the worst.

[Tseison.4659]

Anet doesn’t know how to balance and yet it’s so “difficult” for them to balance between PVE & PVP/WVW game modes lol.... but anyways, I’m only gonna speak for Mesmers. “Balance” isn’t giving every other profession unique mechanics/boons/skills etc... to others and then nerf our class so we aren’t included and making us only good for ‘utilities.’ “Balance”, isn’t introducing the Mirage E-Spec and removing a dodge bar (in pvp/wvw) when everyone else ESPECIALLY [that profession that won’t be name], gets to run around with 2-3.

So, with us receiving a lot more kitten nerfs than other professions, expectations are definitely high for the Mesmers EoD Elite Spec.

[draxynnic.3719]

@Xaylin.1860 said:

@draxynnic.3719 said:

@Xaylin.1860 said:The reason we still see baseline Guardians is mostly due to baseline traitline interactions, not due to e-spec trade-offs.

Which is one of the things I've been facepalming about with the whole 'tradeoff' thing for years now. The core traitline you

could

have otherwise had is the biggest tradeoff of all.

Well, I partly agree/disagree. Designing Elites to have trade-offs is as valid has having the loss off classic traitlines as trade-offs. However, this requires consistent design (philosophie) and implementation across all classes. And that's what ANet isn't good at, it seems. Still, I think we can agree, that Elite traitlines offer more than just traits (weapons, new skills/mechanics). So from a pure balance standpoint, overall traits would have to be worse or at least have worse interaction with the baseline class if you didn't want to implement any obvious trade-offs. Meaning, true sidegrades, not upgrades. I guess the issue with this approach is, that it's less fun when releasing add ons.

Amusingly, with the exception of former Elusive Mind all Mirage traits are and always have been pretty bad. So you would think it could work without a specific trade-off. Joke's on baseline Mesmer. While I still love the theme of Mirage, it's probably the messiest Elite implementation we've got. Not the most boring, mind you. But certainly the worst.

Yeah, that's kinda the problem. Baseline mesmer has been nerfed so hard that... well, it's not baseline guardian, put it that way.

I'm not saying that putting in explicit tradeoffs isn't a valid approach to balancing core versus elites, but I think it is important to keep in mind that the opportunity cost of a third traitline is part of the tradeoff. Ultimately, there's a degree to which the ultimate test of whether there are sufficient tradeoffs for a profession is not to theorycraft about the value of elite specialisation mechanics versus core mechanics, but to look at how much core as actually being played. Core guardian seems to be being played a lot more than core of other professions - this suggests to me that guardian is not the profession that should be being looked at for tradeoffs.

Beyond that, with professions where that isn't the case, there's two broad approaches: nerfing the elite spec or buffing core. Which to do is probably a matter of whether the profession as a whole is overperforming or underperforming. If the profession as a whole is underperforming and core isn't being used, I think there'd good value in buffing one of the underutilised core traitlines (for mesmer, I'd be primarily looking at Inspiration and Chaos) so that taking that third core traitline actually starts looking like a viable option again.

[Dirame.8521]

This is good stuff. I spent a lot of time talking about tradeoffs in the past as well. It is really sad that Anet built such a brilliant skill system in GW 1 with tradeoffs but didn't immediately work with it in mind for GW 2.

[Strider.7849]

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:I'll reiterate. You have to consider all the minor traits when discussing what is gained and what is lost as they are the new chassis that is gained and is how the espec alters the class.

If stats are apart of the new chassis, even things like health and damage modifiers, then they a apart of the discussion.

• Some especs impose stat penalties, some don't. The ones that don't tend to perform better.*

Not sure I can agree with that. Scrapper is very strong in WvW and part of the meta with different builds. Take scourge for example which offers stat buffs - scrapper turns that spec into a buff machine in conjunction with purity of purpose.

If you're referring to berserker - the biggest drawback to berserker is the loss of its F1 bursts, not the -300 toughness.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

@Strider.7849 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:I'll reiterate. You have to consider all the minor traits when discussing what is gained and what is lost as they are the new chassis that is gained and is how the espec alters the class.

If stats are apart of the new chassis, even things like health and damage modifiers, then they a apart of the discussion.

• Some especs impose stat penalties, some don't. The ones that don't tend to perform better.*

Not sure I can agree with that. Scrapper is very strong in WvW and part of the meta with different builds. Take scourge for example which offers stat buffs - scrapper turns that spec into a buff machine in conjunction with purity of purpose.We can fairly disagree.If you're referring to berserker - the biggest drawback to berserker is the loss of its F1 bursts, not the -300 toughness.I agree! Which is why tacking on the -300 toughness is such kidney punch on top of the more punishing drawback. Both were not necessary.