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So now that PvP is dead....can we try it?


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Since SPvP has around 100 players prime time(excluding bots), and WvW has around 500 players prime time (excluding bots). Your PvP community it likely down to around 5,000 active players, if that.It feels like the PvP scene can't really be any more dead. And even if these couple thousand players all quit, it wouldn't change anything.How about we finally do what should have been done 7 years ago and remove downed state from pvp? Not for a weekend, not for a mode, from PvP....period.You have games with far far smaller player bases than GW2 with extremely successful PvP scenes that are still holding tournaments. And then you have GW2 with one of the least active and most hated PvP scenes in an MMO primarily due to the downed state.And yes, it is indeed the reason their PvP failed. All games suffer balance issues, even games like WoW arena. Yet they still have hundreds of thousands of arena players fighting for a huge put every year. We even see this in smaller games like Blade and Soul...with 1/10 of the user base of GW2 but 10x the pvp scene.Downed state is awesome in PvE, Raids, Dungeons, Open World...but it has no place in PvP. You ask streamers, the old GW2 pro's (before the scene died so much that the new pro's are bots), WoW Arena players, they all say the same thing. We dont play GW2 because of the downed state.We really have nothing to lose at this point. PvP no longer exists in GW2, might as well give it a try and see what its like and if it attracts new players.....

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500 people prime in WvW? There are 15 servers in EU, so each server would have to field 33 players in total. Ignoring Obsidian, each server has 4 different borders to be on. That means each server has 8 players average per EB and borders.

Now, how exactly does each server have 8 players on say EB when it's literally queued every prime (80+)? Even if we assume that all the players are there... you still only got 33 players. That's not enough to make a queue. And normally in prime, there are 1-2 borders queued on top of EB being queued, ie ~200-250 players on a single server

Now, I know there are a alot of zerglings running around but come on... They're not all bots?

Also around 340,000 deaths has occured in 3 days of the EU matchups (+ reset hours). Those 500 players got some serious moves.

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A lot of games out there that are popular have about 5k players or so active at a time so really until we are down to the 3 digits, I can't really call it dead. Also you're judging from what exactly.. This mini-season which was always less active that others?

Sure there isn't enough players to prevent matchmaking from being a big coin toss most of the time but there's still enough people playing that it's still fun to play PvP normally.

Besides lots of people don't like to just 1v1 for fun because there's no incentive with the lack of rewards which is a pretty big problem overall with any community, not that they should add rewards for it either, what happened to just having fun, improving or understanding what's going on?

In turn that leads players to not improve or get good then we get random complains from those who barely play it to change so many things that don't make sense.

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@"Bazsi.2734" said:"Hey devs, this gamemode no longer worth investing in because it died, LETS INVEST IN IT!"

Change downstate from "True" to "False" in the back end.Of course this is an exaggeration but it likely wouldn't take more than 1 dev 5 minutes to turn downed state off in pvp. Not really anything invested.

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@Luclinraider.2317 said:Since SPvP has around 100 players prime time(excluding bots), and WvW has around 500 players prime time (excluding bots). Your PvP community it likely down to around 5,000 active players, if that.It feels like the PvP scene can't really be any more dead. And even if these couple thousand players all quit, it wouldn't change anything.How about we finally do what should have been done 7 years ago and remove downed state from pvp? Not for a weekend, not for a mode, from PvP....period.You have games with far far smaller player bases than GW2 with extremely successful PvP scenes that are still holding tournaments. And then you have GW2 with one of the least active and most hated PvP scenes in an MMO primarily due to the downed state.And yes, it is indeed the reason their PvP failed. All games suffer balance issues, even games like WoW arena. Yet they still have hundreds of thousands of arena players fighting for a huge put every year. We even see this in smaller games like Blade and Soul...with 1/10 of the user base of GW2 but 10x the pvp scene.Downed state is awesome in PvE, Raids, Dungeons, Open World...but it has no place in PvP. You ask streamers, the old GW2 pro's (before the scene died so much that the new pro's are bots), WoW Arena players, they all say the same thing. We dont play GW2 because of the downed state.We really have nothing to lose at this point. PvP no longer exists in GW2, might as well give it a try and see what its like and if it attracts new players.....

If you remove downstate from pvp, the top 10 will consist soley of:

  • Power Burst Sic Em Soulbeasts
  • Rifle Deadeyes
  • PD Condi Thieves
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Maybe it's not downed state that's inherently the problem but the absolutely stupid amount of safe sustain that lets people so easily and safely res downed players, and that the profession design and balance, especially since slowing the gameplay down, only rewards sitting around sustaining rather than making aggressive plays and opting for high-burst/high-damage builds.

Sorry, the problem is risk/reward being thrown way off with expansion content. Downed state removal just buffs these sustain builds even more, since the only people that actually end up dropping regardless are the people opting for sub-optimal DPS specs playing aggressively.

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@Luclinraider.2317 said:

@"Bazsi.2734" said:"Hey devs, this gamemode no longer worth investing in because it died, LETS INVEST IN IT!"

Change downstate from "True" to "False" in the back end.Of course this is an exaggeration but it likely wouldn't take more than 1 dev 5 minutes to turn downed state off in pvp. Not really anything invested.

Oh so all revive traits and skills can just go on the shelf next to the 300 second cooldown traits. Cool plan.

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@Shao.7236 said:A lot of games out there that are popular have about 5k players or so active at a time so really until we are down to the 3 digits, I can't really call it dead. Also you're judging from what exactly.. This mini-season which was always less active that others?

Sure there isn't enough players to prevent matchmaking from being a big coin toss most of the time but there's still enough people playing that it's still fun to play PvP normally.

Besides lots of people don't like to just 1v1 for fun because there's no incentive with the lack of rewards which is a pretty big problem overall with any community, not that they should add rewards for it either, what happened to just having fun, improving or understanding what's going on?

In turn that leads players to not improve or get good then we get random complains from those who barely play it to change so many things that don't make sense.

In my experience, you need around 200-300 players, per region, queing at prime time for match making to work effectively. Probably 500+ for robust match making. If not, the game experience suffers greatly, cuz majority of the games will lack in fairness. Also, when this happens the player pool tend to split into old veterans and new players testing the waters. No middle class. So matches default to which team has more or worse newbies.

I have been through this in two games before. It is a frustrating experience. We might have a peak around the new expansion, but I would be surprised if it lasts more than 3 months. It is a death spiral, sadly. And even if Anet puts their act together, it won’t make a difference. The game is just too old, and clearly lacks the longevity that few other games have.

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@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@"Luclinraider.2317" said:Since SPvP has around 100 players prime time(excluding bots), and WvW has around 500 players prime time (excluding bots). Your PvP community it likely down to around 5,000 active players, if that.It feels like the PvP scene can't really be any more dead. And even if these couple thousand players all quit, it wouldn't change anything.How about we finally do what should have been done 7 years ago and remove downed state from pvp? Not for a weekend, not for a mode, from PvP....period.You have games with far far smaller player bases than GW2 with extremely successful PvP scenes that are still holding tournaments. And then you have GW2 with one of the least active and most hated PvP scenes in an MMO primarily due to the downed state.And yes, it is indeed the reason their PvP failed. All games suffer balance issues, even games like WoW arena. Yet they still have hundreds of thousands of arena players fighting for a huge put every year. We even see this in smaller games like Blade and Soul...with 1/10 of the user base of GW2 but 10x the pvp scene.Downed state is awesome in PvE, Raids, Dungeons, Open World...but it has no place in PvP. You ask streamers, the old GW2 pro's (before the scene died so much that the new pro's are bots), WoW Arena players, they all say the same thing. We dont play GW2 because of the downed state.We really have nothing to lose at this point. PvP no longer exists in GW2, might as well give it a try and see what its like and if it attracts new players.....

If you remove downstate from pvp, the top 10 will consist soley of:
  • Power Burst Sic Em Soulbeasts
  • Rifle Deadeyes
  • PD Condi Thieves

Removing Downstate is not a good idea, it removes a good chunk of the game mechanics.

I will say it again as man times before My recommendation is simple: Remove the Revival action (default key F) while in combat. The downed player can still be rallied and all the of Downed skills/traits/runes/skills which offer revival will still work. If the pewpew can not hit you anymore because is being chased by your friendlies eventually you will revive yourself . If your friendlies aren't in combat they can revive you. It is feasible as it has already been implemented for defeated players (fully dead).

Revival in PvP modes should carry more weight than currently has and for that Anet has to remove the Free revival with the F key. Revival skills have hefty cooldowns because the revive should mean something, Revive a friendly will change the outcome of any encounter.Being able to get it for free with literally no investment from the players is a very frustrating mechanic as it feels like you have been robbed from a victory.

There is literally no downside to disabling the Revival action while in combat. None.

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@MysteryMen.3791 said:Also no one above gold 3 has ever wanted downstate removed, definitely not the old gw2 pros and the current top tier players. I have never once tilted because downstate existed but clearly you do a lot.

Aaand thats not quite truth. Except for balance and lack of...interest from ANet side in PvP scene, downed state was one of the reasons why MMO PvP pros/players/etc didnt like GW2 PvP. Myself included, as a guy that came to GW2 from WoW and GW1 and played both of them on high PvP level. Over the years, many streamers that have multiple thousands of viewers in WoW (either playing pve, arenas or other things) or other MMOs wanted to try gw2 and in PvP almost all of them said that downed state is just...weird and not needed.

Now hear me out, I dont say that downed state is pure evil. It makes game flow much slower, but you can get used to it and take advantage in conquest mode making other players useless for longer amount of time. Problem starts when we come across few things, such as ressbots. There shouldnt exist any, again, ANY skills, traits, whatsoever that makes ressing players faster than it is implemented by default. You use multiple CDs to burst some1 down, then comes 1 guy with one CD and just picks him up. No, if you wanna pick some1 up, you gotta go to that body, spend few seconds ressing him, popping your defensive CDs so you wont die either. Let me compare it to WoW where ress skill is 10 (!) second cast. Also there are hillarious downed state skills, such as rev slow, condi teef spamming 1 etc. Tbh I have no idea who designed them, but since the very beginning those are a joke (back in the vanilla days there were necro builds with downed +damage trait that allowed to deal same damage as if you were up, hillarious Karthus gameplay).

The other thing is kinda more complicated, and its conquest mode as a whole. GW2 wanted to be a special kiddo where in most MMOs in ranked games you just have arenas or sth like that, 2v2, 3v3 etc. Its good, it works. But ANet made sth called 'cap and hold 3 circles for X minutes, have fun'. Over the years more and more ppl started leaving this mode because they just want to fight, they dont care about circles. They moved to other games, or to dueling zones, or WvW. Existing bunker and healbots aint helping either. So what ANet made? Hmmm, how about we admit our mistakes and make 2v2, 3v3 off-meta arenas? Yeah, right in time. But oh boi, what a clownfiesta those modes became. And again, while in conquest mode downed state can be either your advantage and disadvantage, in 2s and 3s there should be no such thing. If you die, you die, period. But thats just some offmeta gamemode that no1 cares about because there are no PvP devs in this company that can properly balance it and make arenas viable in gw2.

tl;drYou see, GW2 was this one special kid in class that wanted to make things on its own. No arenas, conquest mode (arenas added later on), no raids, fractals and dungeons (raids added later on), no instant death mode in pvp modes, downed state (wvw 'no downed state' week events later on) and so on and so on. Ofc you can be succesful as special kid, bah, gw2 started as really succesful one! But lack of any interest from the company made this game what we have now, kinda dead, more and more with each day. Copy-pasting is easy way to make money, starting new meta is hard and lack of any commitment from devs side is just a proof that they shouldnt start anything new and just copy-paste and learn from big brothers because they have no idea what to do with their cake.

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@Widmo.3186 said:

@MysteryMen.3791 said:Also no one above gold 3 has ever wanted downstate removed, definitely not the old gw2 pros and the current top tier players. I have never once tilted because downstate existed but clearly you do a lot.

Aaand thats not quite truth. Except for balance and lack of...interest from ANet side in PvP scene, downed state was one of the reasons why MMO PvP pros/players/etc didnt like GW2 PvP. Myself included, as a guy that came to GW2 from WoW and GW1 and played both of them on high PvP level. Over the years, many streamers that have multiple thousands of viewers in WoW (either playing pve, arenas or other things) or other MMOs wanted to try gw2 and in PvP almost all of them said that downed state is just...weird and not needed.

Now hear me out, I dont say that downed state is pure evil. It makes game flow much slower, but you can get used to it and take advantage in conquest mode making other players useless for longer amount of time. Problem starts when we come across few things, such as ressbots. There shouldnt exist any, again, ANY skills, traits, whatsoever that makes ressing players faster than it is implemented by default. You use multiple CDs to burst some1 down, then comes 1 guy with one CD and just picks him up. No, if you wanna pick some1 up, you gotta go to that body, spend few seconds ressing him, popping your defensive CDs so you wont die either. Let me compare it to WoW where ress skill is 10 (!) second cast. Also there are hillarious downed state skills, such as rev slow, condi teef spamming 1 etc. Tbh I have no idea who designed them, but since the very beginning those are a joke (back in the vanilla days there were necro builds with downed +damage trait that allowed to deal same damage as if you were up, hillarious Karthus gameplay).

The other thing is kinda more complicated, and its conquest mode as a whole. GW2 wanted to be a special kiddo where in most MMOs in ranked games you just have arenas or sth like that, 2v2, 3v3 etc. Its good, it works. But ANet made sth called 'cap and hold 3 circles for X minutes, have fun'. Over the years more and more ppl started leaving this mode because they just want to fight, they dont care about circles. They moved to other games, or to dueling zones, or WvW. Existing bunker and healbots aint helping either. So what ANet made? Hmmm, how about we admit our mistakes and make 2v2, 3v3 off-meta arenas? Yeah, right in time. But oh boi, what a clownfiesta those modes became. And again, while in conquest mode downed state can be either your advantage and disadvantage, in 2s and 3s there should be no such thing. If you die, you die, period. But thats just some offmeta gamemode that no1 cares about because there are no PvP devs in this company that can properly balance it and make arenas viable in gw2.

tl;drYou see, GW2 was this one special kid in class that wanted to make things on its own. No arenas, conquest mode (arenas added later on), no raids, fractals and dungeons (raids added later on), no instant death mode in pvp modes, downed state (wvw 'no downed state' week events later on) and so on and so on. Ofc you can be succesful as special kid, bah, gw2 started as really succesful one! But lack of any interest from the company made this game what we have now, kinda dead, more and more with each day. Copy-pasting is easy way to make money, starting new meta is hard and lack of any commitment from devs side is just a proof that they shouldnt start anything new and just copy-paste and learn from big brothers because they have no idea what to do with their cake.

Non gw2 streamers (and most of those too tbh) aren't going to be a good way to get gw2 feedback. Watching those kinds of players like summit, its immediately clear they're just tilted at being bad and don't have any interest in actually learning how to pvp. Its somewhat understandable given they're walking into an 8 year old pvp scene.

Speaking of conquest. Forum posters begged for deathmatch and we got it. Anet put out courtyard and people hated it. Same with stronghold.

Pvp's issues are deeper than downstate. Its a mess of slow balance tempo, unwillingness to balance classes to clear roles, removal of skill expression, power creep, and lack of dev support on the personal side. Downstate has nothing to do with it.

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@Ryan.9387 said:

@MysteryMen.3791 said:Also no one above gold 3 has ever wanted downstate removed, definitely not the old gw2 pros and the current top tier players. I have never once tilted because downstate existed but clearly you do a lot.

Aaand thats not quite truth. Except for balance and lack of...interest from ANet side in PvP scene, downed state was one of the reasons why MMO PvP pros/players/etc didnt like GW2 PvP. Myself included, as a guy that came to GW2 from WoW and GW1 and played both of them on high PvP level. Over the years, many streamers that have multiple thousands of viewers in WoW (either playing pve, arenas or other things) or other MMOs wanted to try gw2 and in PvP almost all of them said that downed state is just...weird and not needed.

Now hear me out, I dont say that downed state is pure evil. It makes game flow much slower, but you can get used to it and take advantage in conquest mode making other players useless for longer amount of time. Problem starts when we come across few things, such as ressbots. There shouldnt exist any, again, ANY skills, traits, whatsoever that makes ressing players faster than it is implemented by default. You use multiple CDs to burst some1 down, then comes 1 guy with one CD and just picks him up. No, if you wanna pick some1 up, you gotta go to that body, spend few seconds ressing him, popping your defensive CDs so you wont die either. Let me compare it to WoW where ress skill is 10 (!) second cast. Also there are hillarious downed state skills, such as rev slow, condi teef spamming 1 etc. Tbh I have no idea who designed them, but since the very beginning those are a joke (back in the vanilla days there were necro builds with downed +damage trait that allowed to deal same damage as if you were up, hillarious Karthus gameplay).

The other thing is kinda more complicated, and its conquest mode as a whole. GW2 wanted to be a special kiddo where in most MMOs in ranked games you just have arenas or sth like that, 2v2, 3v3 etc. Its good, it works. But ANet made sth called 'cap and hold 3 circles for X minutes, have fun'. Over the years more and more ppl started leaving this mode because they just want to fight, they dont care about circles. They moved to other games, or to dueling zones, or WvW. Existing bunker and healbots aint helping either. So what ANet made? Hmmm, how about we admit our mistakes and make 2v2, 3v3 off-meta arenas? Yeah, right in time. But oh boi, what a clownfiesta those modes became. And again, while in conquest mode downed state can be either your advantage and disadvantage, in 2s and 3s there should be no such thing. If you die, you die, period. But thats just some offmeta gamemode that no1 cares about because there are no PvP devs in this company that can properly balance it and make arenas viable in gw2.

tl;drYou see, GW2 was this one special kid in class that wanted to make things on its own. No arenas, conquest mode (arenas added later on), no raids, fractals and dungeons (raids added later on), no instant death mode in pvp modes, downed state (wvw 'no downed state' week events later on) and so on and so on. Ofc you can be succesful as special kid, bah, gw2 started as really succesful one! But lack of any interest from the company made this game what we have now, kinda dead, more and more with each day. Copy-pasting is easy way to make money, starting new meta is hard and lack of any commitment from devs side is just a proof that they shouldnt start anything new and just copy-paste and learn from big brothers because they have no idea what to do with their cake.

Non gw2 streamers (and most of those too tbh) aren't going to be a good way to get gw2 feedback. Watching those kinds of players like summit, its immediately clear they're just tilted at being bad and don't have any interest in actually learning how to pvp. Its somewhat understandable given they're walking into an 8 year old pvp scene.

Speaking of conquest. Forum posters begged for deathmatch and we got it. Anet put out courtyard and people hated it. Same with stronghold.

Pvp's issues are deeper than downstate. Its a mess of slow balance tempo, unwillingness to balance classes to clear roles, removal of skill expression, power creep, and lack of dev support on the personal side. Downstate has nothing to do with it.

Im not saying what happend in the past few months that summit 'discovered' gw2. Im talking what was going on in the beginning of gw2, when streamers from other MMOs wanted to try it out cuz it was promising (same as rn with Ashes of Creation or New World).Yep, begged for deathmatch and guess what, it wasnt balanced. They struggle with conquest balance, not even talking about other modes. And stronghold...really, MOBA inside of MMO? Kek.Downstate is one of factors, we got used to it but it doesnt mean it was right from the very beginning. It doesnt need to be removed in conquest, just balanced (like most things in this game, lmao), but if we would want other modes to be viable, it should be deleted from them.

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Hot take:New players don't really care THAT much about downed state.The problem are other design choices which simply aren't fun, choices which this community often defends, cause the pvp-veterans are extremly disconnected from the average newcomer.Just look at the burn guard threads for example.There is a reason why we pretty much have a new thread about it every week - yet a big portion of the comments still are just "l2p noob" without every thinking about the impact this stuff has on the influx of new players cause it simply isn't a fun experience.

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