Fix deadeye

[anduriell.6280]

I think we all agree with the notion stealth is trash mechanic. Not only for thief but also for druid, dragon hunter and engineer.I'd like to say the stealth on dodge from Silent Scope and the revealed removal from Shadow Meld are very toxic mechanics at the same level of Ancient Seeds.

But if Anet remove those mechanics the Deadeye will be really useless. And it will not address the main issue wich is a mechanic with no counter like it is stealth. Any other nerfs to the class will not work as the thief can circumvent all the nerfs to stealth or mobility (which is also an issue in a class with no cooldowns when it can reset the fight whenever they want but the enemies can't reset the cooldowns).

As such i will again propose this:

• First : While stealthed the character enters combat. This is very important as i'm able to mount while in stealth.
• Deadeye converts all incoming stealth to extended Camouflage . For each application of stealth it is converted to camouflage plus additional seconds so the effect last longer. Camouflage makes the deadeye invisible but it can not perform any actions, not even movement. I gains stealth in Death's Retreat and in Shadow Flare and Shadow Swap which is a cantrip with no use. So everytime it uses a teleport can be seen for less than a second.
• Stealth from thief and smoke fields only makes invisible to enemies farther than 600 units. Any enemy closer than that to the thief will be able to see the thief but not reveal it. A trait could be so the range is reduced to 300 only for the thief. This will fix not only the Thief but also any other means of stealth like the druid, the trapper runes, etc...
• Stealth from mesmers works the other way around. The mesmer is invisible to enemies in a range of 600 with a trait to make it wider up to 900.

And like that we fix many issues and open squad spots for thieves and mesmers, as the first will guarantee stealth while approaching while the other stealth on close.

[Dawdler.8521]

@"anduriell.6280" said:I think we all agree with the notion stealth is trash mechanic. Not only for thief but also for druid, dragon hunter and engineer.I'd like to say the stealth on dodge from Silent Scope and the revealed removal from Shadow Meld are very toxic mechanics at the same level of Ancient Seeds.

But if Anet remove those mechanics the Deadeye will be really useless. And it will not address the main issue wich is a mechanic with no counter like it is stealth. Any other nerfs to the class will not work as the thief can circumvent all the nerfs to stealth or mobility (which is also an issue in a class with no cooldowns when it can reset the fight whenever they want but the enemies can't reset the cooldowns).

As such i will again propose this:

• First : While stealthed the character enters combat. This is very important as i'm able to mount while in stealth.
• Deadeye converts all incoming stealth to extended Camouflage . For each application of stealth it is converted to camouflage plus additional seconds so the effect last longer. Camouflage makes the deadeye invisible but it can not perform any actions, not even movement. I gains stealth in Death's Retreat and in Shadow Flare and Shadow Swap which is a cantrip with no use. So everytime it uses a teleport can be seen for less than a second.
• Stealth from thief and smoke fields only makes invisible to enemies farther than 600 units. Any enemy closer than that to the thief will be able to see the thief but not reveal it. A trait could be so the range is reduced to 300 only for the thief. This will fix not only the Thief but also any other means of stealth like the druid, the trapper runes, etc...
• Stealth from mesmers works the other way around. The mesmer is invisible to enemies in a range of 600 with a trait to make it wider up to 900.

And like that we fix many issues and open squad spots for thieves and mesmers, as the first will guarantee stealth while approaching while the other stealth on close.Or you could just tweak existing mechanics to actually have some meaning:

• Each second someone remains in stealth adds a second to revealed which gets applied when the person exits stealth (either by attacking another player or stacked stealth expiring).

And there you go. Problem solved. If a deadeye want to stay stealthed for 1 minute, he can be. But afterwards he cannot stealth for 1 minute. If a tp theif want to stealth for 5s, appear to do a single attack and stealth again then infinetily repeat it as they teleport back and forward... nope. You can stealth for 5 seconds sure. But that means you cant for 5 seconds.

Simple and effective.

[kash.9213]

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@"anduriell.6280" said:I think we all agree with the notion stealth is trash mechanic. Not only for thief but also for druid, dragon hunter and engineer.I'd like to say the stealth on dodge from

Silent Scope

and the revealed removal from

Shadow Meld

are very toxic mechanics at the same level of

Ancient Seeds

.

But if Anet remove those mechanics the Deadeye will be really useless. And it will not address the main issue wich is a mechanic with no counter like it is stealth. Any other nerfs to the class will not work as the thief can circumvent all the nerfs to stealth or mobility (which is also an issue in a class with no cooldowns when it can reset the fight whenever they want but the enemies can't reset the cooldowns).

As such i will again propose this:

• First : While stealthed the character enters combat.
  This is very important as i'm able to mount while in stealth.
• Deadeye converts all incoming stealth to extended
  Camouflage
  . For each application of stealth it is converted to camouflage plus additional seconds so the effect last longer. Camouflage makes the deadeye invisible but it can not perform any actions, not even movement. I gains stealth in
  Death's Retreat
  and in
  Shadow Flare
  and
  Shadow Swap
  which is a cantrip with no use. So everytime it uses a teleport can be seen for less than a second.
• Stealth from thief and smoke fields only makes invisible to enemies farther than 600 units. Any enemy closer than that to the thief will be able to see the thief but not reveal it. A trait could be so the range is reduced to 300 only for the thief. This will fix not only the Thief but also any other means of stealth like the druid, the trapper runes, etc...
• Stealth from mesmers works the other way around. The mesmer is invisible to enemies in a range of 600 with a trait to make it wider up to 900.

And like that we fix many issues and open squad spots for thieves and mesmers, as the first will guarantee stealth while approaching while the other stealth on close.Or you could just tweak

existing mechanics

to actually have some meaning:

• Each second someone remains in stealth adds a second to revealed which gets applied when the person exits stealth (either by attacking another player or stacked stealth expiring).

And there you go. Problem solved. If a deadeye want to stay stealthed for 1 minute, he can be. But afterwards he cannot stealth for 1 minute. If a tp theif want to stealth for 5s, appear to do a single attack and stealth again then infinetily repeat it as they teleport back and forward... nope. You can stealth for 5 seconds sure. But that means you cant for 5 seconds.

Simple and effective.

That's a more realistic compromise. Silent scope isn't even that bad, you have spend Initiative bouncing out to keep distance or to swap and evade some which rifle doesn't have. Guy mentioning no cooldowns like everything is free is a good preview to the rest of his idea.

[Sobx.1758]

@"anduriell.6280" said:[still not understanding stealth despite having that DE avatar on the forum]

This idea is as worthless now as it was multiple times you've posted it before. Stealth without posibility to move is absolutely useless and the only ""value"" your idea gives to it just promotes stupid playstyles of sitting in one place waiting for an oblivious opponent that has no way to say you're there. It's not a rework, it's a removal at best.

[T G.7496]

Stealth in this game is just badly implemented. At minimum there should be a speed reduction in stealth.

Deadeye, for competitive modes, is one of the worst game design decisions I have ever seen.

It is fun for exactly one player.

And I worry about the sort of player who gravitates towards Deadeye as a rewarding experience. I ignore players of Deadeyes whenever I can. Much as I would probably do in real life.

[Touchme.1097]

Deadeye has little mobility due to the kneel feature, it has to rely on stealth in order to survive. Why don't you run stealth reveal and learn how to counterplay instead of asking for nerfs which would cripple a whole profession and make it useless? All thieves rely on the stealth mechanic to make up for the lack of block and lack of heavy armor.

[anduriell.6280]

@kash.9213 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@"anduriell.6280" said:I think we all agree with the notion stealth is trash mechanic. Not only for thief but also for druid, dragon hunter and engineer.I'd like to say the stealth on dodge from

Silent Scope

and the revealed removal from

Shadow Meld

are very toxic mechanics at the same level of

Ancient Seeds

.

But if Anet remove those mechanics the Deadeye will be really useless. And it will not address the main issue wich is a mechanic with no counter like it is stealth. Any other nerfs to the class will not work as the thief can circumvent all the nerfs to stealth or mobility (which is also an issue in a class with no cooldowns when it can reset the fight whenever they want but the enemies can't reset the cooldowns).

As such i will again propose this:

• First : While stealthed the character enters combat.
  This is very important as i'm able to mount while in stealth.
• Deadeye converts all incoming stealth to extended
  Camouflage
  . For each application of stealth it is converted to camouflage plus additional seconds so the effect last longer. Camouflage makes the deadeye invisible but it can not perform any actions, not even movement. I gains stealth in
  Death's Retreat
  and in
  Shadow Flare
  and
  Shadow Swap
  which is a cantrip with no use. So everytime it uses a teleport can be seen for less than a second.
• Stealth from thief and smoke fields only makes invisible to enemies farther than 600 units. Any enemy closer than that to the thief will be able to see the thief but not reveal it. A trait could be so the range is reduced to 300 only for the thief. This will fix not only the Thief but also any other means of stealth like the druid, the trapper runes, etc...
• Stealth from mesmers works the other way around. The mesmer is invisible to enemies in a range of 600 with a trait to make it wider up to 900.

And like that we fix many issues and open squad spots for thieves and mesmers, as the first will guarantee stealth while approaching while the other stealth on close.Or you could just tweak

existing mechanics

to actually have some meaning:

• Each second someone remains in stealth adds a second to revealed which gets applied when the person exits stealth (either by attacking another player or stacked stealth expiring).

And there you go. Problem solved. If a deadeye want to stay stealthed for 1 minute, he can be. But afterwards he cannot stealth for 1 minute. If a tp theif want to stealth for 5s, appear to do a single attack and stealth again then infinetily repeat it as they teleport back and forward... nope. You can stealth for 5 seconds sure. But that means you cant for 5 seconds.

Simple and effective.

That's a more realistic compromise. Silent scope isn't even that bad, you have spend Initiative bouncing out to keep distance or to swap and evade some which rifle doesn't have. Guy mentioning no cooldowns like everything is free is a good preview to the rest of his idea.

I like your idea. But deadeye can remove the revealed with Shadow Meld. That elite has 2 charges. How are you proposing to fix that? Are you thinking now adding a new reveal which can't be removed? And then Anet adds a new stealth which can remove that reveal? That is the equivalent to power creep but for invisibility.

That's why i thought about camouflage. The idea is to allow the DE to be stealthed for long periods of time with the only requirement to not to perform actions. Also Camouflage would fix the fact you only see the DE attacks when they hit you (with the only exception of Death Judgement which can be circumvented by using quickness so the 1 second precast is minimized) . Which means the DE can land an attack like Spotter's Shot from invisibility immobilise you then a Three Round Burst and go back into stealth while you are still bussy cleansing the immob.

Camouflage would disappear as soon as the DE hit the action button in opposition to when the projectile hit you, which gives the player the opportunity to perform a counter play if the target is quick enough. Now the first impact is hit guaranteed. I understand the concept may be difficult to see but there is a big difference between stealth and camouflage.

That's why i came up wit the idea of the visibility radius for normal stealth. The point is to give the target the possibility to dodge or perform an action and to understand what happened even if that margin is very slim. Right now i can one shot some glass eles or mesmers even before they can do anything.

I see it as a very cheesy mechanic which i understand is very unfun to play against.

[lare.5129]

@purple.6194 said:fix perm stealth keep hiding and porting.?? you ask make one button and deadeye always be in stealth as should?

I know wvw is dead, the siege side of things is deadyes, and I like it. That dead mode is good thing to make good fun on weekend for me.

The mount sniff bell, to indicate a stealth enemy may be in the area, is not the counterplay to a perm stealth deadeye.why you think should be any counterplay ? NO

It isn't, there are so many things wrong with stealth in gw2yes, I very missed my one button and get true perma stealth

[Helicity.3416]

I guess it's time (again) to explain to people how target painters/traps/watchtower actually work.

Because "paint trap is instantly cleansed" is misinformation, and most of the replies in this thread display an incredible lack of understanding of the game mechanics at play.

There are three different effects in play:

MarkedThis is the effect applied by target painters/watchtower/sentries.

Marked targets are visible on the map to the team controlling the source of the effect.

When you are marked, entering stealth applies detected!

Detected!This effect is applied when you enter stealth while marked

If you stay in stealth for more than 2 seconds you will be pulled out of stealth and the revealed debuff will be placed on you.

RevealedThis debuff prevents you from gaining stealth, it is applied by detected! and various player abilities.

The Deadeye elite skill Shadow Meld (2 charges) can cleanse revealed

Now, it is important to understand that Deadeye can only cleanse the revealed status. They remain marked if hit by target painters (or seen by a sentry/tower)

Therefore, if they use shadow meld to cleanse reveal, and re-enter stealth, they will immediately be detected! again and revealed 2 seconds later.

Note that non-Deadeye thieves can not Cleanse the revealed debuff at all.

It's important to understand these mechanics correctly! And once you do, you will realise that throwing a Target Painter on a Deadeye immediately invalidates their entire ability to actually play the game.

"Oh but it's too much effort/hard to use a Target Painter"

Well, then don't complain.

For the low cost of 1 cheap consumable and 10 supply you can render them unable to play the game, and probably dead. If that's too much effort for you, that's on you.

[Helicity.3416]

To continue, the reason Deadeye has the Shadow Meld elite, is because they do not have access to the active defenses and evasion of Daredevil, and lessened access to the mobility options of both core and DD due to the added demand on endurance for applying stealth and having the rifle equipped.

Fighting Deadeyes can be challenging, unfortunately their core design is not very counterplay friendly outside of using a target painter, and at the same time they mechanically would not work if you took away their strong stealth abilities.

This is obviously not the best design, but I disagree with the incredible amount of complaining done by people who can't even be bothered to look up how stealth mechanics actually work.

I play Deadeye sometimes, and I kill Deadeyes on literally all my characters, it's absolutely doable.All you need to do is understand and play smart.

[Sobx.1758]

@"anduriell.6280" said:Camouflage would disappear as soon as the DE hit the action button in opposition to when the projectile hit you, which gives the player the opportunity to perform a counter play if the target is quick enough. Now the first impact is hit guaranteed. I understand the concept may be difficult to see but there is a big difference between stealth and camouflage.

I think it's important to clarify that nothing about your concept is difficult to see. It's just that it's an awful idea and you don't understand mechanic you're ""trying to balance""

I mean, you claim you want to balance it, but in reality you're just trying to remove it -the thing here is that you're mainly targetting deadeye espec (change from stealth to something unusable) and thief in general ("stealth working only outside of 600 units", which renders its class mechanic on melee weapons nearly unusable, while leaving it pretty much intact for the defensive purposes for other classes -like... you know, your ranger will still easly dash away while gaining that stealth outside of 600 units, what a coincidence :o It's even more hilarious when you remember in another thread you've claimed you want stealth to be an offensive effect instead of a defensive one).Either you don't understand what you're talking about or you're just purposefully targetting the class you don't like and pretend you're "balancing" it. At this point it might as well be the latter seeing how many times it's been already explained to you while you still copy-paste your awful idea around.

[Doug.4930]

Or you know, you guys could just run a dragon hunter. In which case the only thing you need to consider when fighting a DE is whether or not your inventory has enough space for the bag you are about to receive.

The only valid complaint is the same as its always been. D/P thief being able to attack from stealth with absolutely no tell whatsoever. Just whack, 6k opening from stealth. Best way to address that is to fix stealth stacking. Limit the amount of individual stealth stacks. Preferably stacks gained through combo fields that D/P in particular is the most effective at abusing. Using dodges and utilities for stealth is far more cost heavy than spending initiative when your main damage skill is not dependent on initiative.

To continue being fair also the above changes should be contingent with marked being reworked in WvW. You can't ask for justified nerfs whilst being happy with a mechanic existing in the game that negates an entire thief traitline and two thief weapon sets. Two seconds followed by a 6 second reveal punishes the class in general not only those abusing perma stealth.

Also yea hiding in keeps is too easy now that anet has given us build/gear templates. Just make a tank thief build and no group with less than 10 people is going to be able to kill you.

[kash.9213]

@anduriell.6280 said:

@kash.9213 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@anduriell.6280 said:I think we all agree with the notion stealth is trash mechanic. Not only for thief but also for druid, dragon hunter and engineer.I'd like to say the stealth on dodge from

Silent Scope

and the revealed removal from

Shadow Meld

are very toxic mechanics at the same level of

Ancient Seeds

.

But if Anet remove those mechanics the Deadeye will be really useless. And it will not address the main issue wich is a mechanic with no counter like it is stealth. Any other nerfs to the class will not work as the thief can circumvent all the nerfs to stealth or mobility (which is also an issue in a class with no cooldowns when it can reset the fight whenever they want but the enemies can't reset the cooldowns).

As such i will again propose this:

• First : While stealthed the character enters combat.
  This is very important as i'm able to mount while in stealth.
• Deadeye converts all incoming stealth to extended
  Camouflage
  . For each application of stealth it is converted to camouflage plus additional seconds so the effect last longer. Camouflage makes the deadeye invisible but it can not perform any actions, not even movement. I gains stealth in
  Death's Retreat
  and in
  Shadow Flare
  and
  Shadow Swap
  which is a cantrip with no use. So everytime it uses a teleport can be seen for less than a second.
• Stealth from thief and smoke fields only makes invisible to enemies farther than 600 units. Any enemy closer than that to the thief will be able to see the thief but not reveal it. A trait could be so the range is reduced to 300 only for the thief. This will fix not only the Thief but also any other means of stealth like the druid, the trapper runes, etc...
• Stealth from mesmers works the other way around. The mesmer is invisible to enemies in a range of 600 with a trait to make it wider up to 900.

And like that we fix many issues and open squad spots for thieves and mesmers, as the first will guarantee stealth while approaching while the other stealth on close.Or you could just tweak

existing mechanics

to actually have some meaning:

• Each second someone remains in stealth adds a second to revealed which gets applied when the person exits stealth (either by attacking another player or stacked stealth expiring).

And there you go. Problem solved. If a deadeye want to stay stealthed for 1 minute, he can be. But afterwards he cannot stealth for 1 minute. If a tp theif want to stealth for 5s, appear to do a single attack and stealth again then infinetily repeat it as they teleport back and forward... nope. You can stealth for 5 seconds sure. But that means you cant for 5 seconds.

Simple and effective.

That's a more realistic compromise. Silent scope isn't even that bad, you have spend Initiative bouncing out to keep distance or to swap and evade some which rifle doesn't have. Guy mentioning no cooldowns like everything is free is a good preview to the rest of his idea.

I like your idea.

But deadeye can remove the revealed with

Shadow Meld

.

That elite has 2 charges. How are you proposing to fix that? Are you thinking now adding a

new reveal

which can't be removed? And then Anet adds a new stealth which can remove that reveal? That is the equivalent to power creep but for invisibility.

That's why i thought about camouflage. The idea is to allow the DE to be stealthed for long periods of time with the only requirement to not to perform actions. Also Camouflage would fix the fact you only see the DE attacks when they hit you (with the only exception of

Death Judgement

which can be circumvented by using quickness so the 1 second precast is minimized) . Which means the DE can land an attack like

Spotter's Shot

from invisibility immobilise you then a

Three Round Burst

and go back into stealth while you are still bussy cleansing the immob.

Camouflage would disappear as soon as the DE hit the action button in opposition to when the projectile hit you

, which gives the player the opportunity to perform a counter play if the target is quick enough. Now the first impact is hit guaranteed. I understand the concept may be difficult to see but there is a big difference between stealth and camouflage.

That's why i came up wit the idea of the visibility radius for normal stealth.

The point is to give the target the possibility to dodge or perform an action and to understand what happened even if that margin is very slim

. Right now i can one shot some glass eles or mesmers even before they can do anything.

I see it as a very cheesy mechanic which i understand is very unfun to play against.

I think his idea shouldn't have to take Shadow Meld into consideration because that Elite Skill should be replaced. A DE Elite skill should be something that strengthens Kneel stance, like adds some defense and counter measures and allows temporary slow movement in crouch or something. I've also suggested before having some kind of proximity visual filter (only visual, while stealth mechanics still apply) that would force a stealth user to plan their resources and utilities to land a deceptive opener or heavy hit, but then people would need to be cool with something like that being a thing, which they most likely wouldn't be and there would be endless threads about that.

[Dawdler.8521]

@kash.9213 said:

@anduriell.6280 said:

@kash.9213 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@anduriell.6280 said:I think we all agree with the notion stealth is trash mechanic. Not only for thief but also for druid, dragon hunter and engineer.I'd like to say the stealth on dodge from

Silent Scope

and the revealed removal from

Shadow Meld

are very toxic mechanics at the same level of

Ancient Seeds

.

But if Anet remove those mechanics the Deadeye will be really useless. And it will not address the main issue wich is a mechanic with no counter like it is stealth. Any other nerfs to the class will not work as the thief can circumvent all the nerfs to stealth or mobility (which is also an issue in a class with no cooldowns when it can reset the fight whenever they want but the enemies can't reset the cooldowns).

As such i will again propose this:

• First : While stealthed the character enters combat.
  This is very important as i'm able to mount while in stealth.
• Deadeye converts all incoming stealth to extended
  Camouflage
  . For each application of stealth it is converted to camouflage plus additional seconds so the effect last longer. Camouflage makes the deadeye invisible but it can not perform any actions, not even movement. I gains stealth in
  Death's Retreat
  and in
  Shadow Flare
  and
  Shadow Swap
  which is a cantrip with no use. So everytime it uses a teleport can be seen for less than a second.
• Stealth from thief and smoke fields only makes invisible to enemies farther than 600 units. Any enemy closer than that to the thief will be able to see the thief but not reveal it. A trait could be so the range is reduced to 300 only for the thief. This will fix not only the Thief but also any other means of stealth like the druid, the trapper runes, etc...
• Stealth from mesmers works the other way around. The mesmer is invisible to enemies in a range of 600 with a trait to make it wider up to 900.

And like that we fix many issues and open squad spots for thieves and mesmers, as the first will guarantee stealth while approaching while the other stealth on close.Or you could just tweak

existing mechanics

to actually have some meaning:

• Each second someone remains in stealth adds a second to revealed which gets applied when the person exits stealth (either by attacking another player or stacked stealth expiring).

And there you go. Problem solved. If a deadeye want to stay stealthed for 1 minute, he can be. But afterwards he cannot stealth for 1 minute. If a tp theif want to stealth for 5s, appear to do a single attack and stealth again then infinetily repeat it as they teleport back and forward... nope. You can stealth for 5 seconds sure. But that means you cant for 5 seconds.

Simple and effective.

That's a more realistic compromise. Silent scope isn't even that bad, you have spend Initiative bouncing out to keep distance or to swap and evade some which rifle doesn't have. Guy mentioning no cooldowns like everything is free is a good preview to the rest of his idea.

I like your idea.

But deadeye can remove the revealed with

Shadow Meld

.

That elite has 2 charges. How are you proposing to fix that? Are you thinking now adding a

new reveal

which can't be removed? And then Anet adds a new stealth which can remove that reveal? That is the equivalent to power creep but for invisibility.

That's why i thought about camouflage. The idea is to allow the DE to be stealthed for long periods of time with the only requirement to not to perform actions. Also Camouflage would fix the fact you only see the DE attacks when they hit you (with the only exception of

Death Judgement

which can be circumvented by using quickness so the 1 second precast is minimized) . Which means the DE can land an attack like

Spotter's Shot

from invisibility immobilise you then a

Three Round Burst

and go back into stealth while you are still bussy cleansing the immob.

Camouflage would disappear as soon as the DE hit the action button in opposition to when the projectile hit you

, which gives the player the opportunity to perform a counter play if the target is quick enough. Now the first impact is hit guaranteed. I understand the concept may be difficult to see but there is a big difference between stealth and camouflage.

That's why i came up wit the idea of the visibility radius for normal stealth.

The point is to give the target the possibility to dodge or perform an action and to understand what happened even if that margin is very slim

. Right now i can one shot some glass eles or mesmers even before they can do anything.

I see it as a very cheesy mechanic which i understand is very unfun to play against.

I think his idea shouldn't have to take Shadow Meld into consideration because that Elite Skill should be replaced. A DE Elite skill should be something that strengthens Kneel stance, like adds some defense and counter measures and allows temporary slow movement in crouch or something. I've also suggested before having some kind of proximity visual filter (only visual, while stealth mechanics still apply) that would force a stealth user to plan their resources and utilities to land a deceptive opener or heavy hit, but then people would need to be cool with something like that being a thing, which they most likely wouldn't be and there would be endless threads about that.Anet changes other skills willy nilly so Purity Of Purpose can hit the thief too, yes.

[PrinceValentine.9320]

I saw someone on Map Chat complained about DE while she was running a pew pew ranger build with LB. Told her to toughen up her build and drop the longbow. I see a lot more newbies coming in to WvW. That's good, although it may take some time for them to change their build until they get owned several times. Most thieves will just run away after they figured out they can't down you in 1 to 2 hits unless they really want to spend time dueling you.

[Yasai.3549]

@PrinceValentine.9320 said:I saw someone on Map Chat complained about DE while she was running a pew pew ranger build with LB. Told her to toughen up her build and drop the longbow. I see a lot more newbies coming in to WvW. That's good, although it may take some time for them to change their build until they get owned several times. Most thieves will just run away after they figured out they can't down you in 1 to 2 hits unless they really want to spend time dueling you.

Sic'em + Longbow shreds DEs ez tho.It's really a L2P thing.

When DEs show up for their Spotter's spam/DJ, hit them with LB 4 > LB 2 and Sic'em and they usually either drop dead or are forced to Shadowstep away + Stealth spam while trying to get OOC.

And if they don't Stealth spam, yur 1500 range Autos will pick them off.

[anduriell.6280]

@Yasai.3549 said:

@PrinceValentine.9320 said:I saw someone on Map Chat complained about DE while she was running a pew pew ranger build with LB. Told her to toughen up her build and drop the longbow. I see a lot more newbies coming in to WvW. That's good, although it may take some time for them to change their build until they get owned several times. Most thieves will just run away after they figured out they can't down you in 1 to 2 hits unless they really want to spend time dueling you.

Sic'em + Longbow shreds DEs ez tho.It's really a L2P thing.

When DEs show up for their Spotter's spam/DJ, hit them with LB 4 > LB 2 and Sic'em and they usually either drop dead or are forced to Shadowstep away + Stealth spam while trying to get OOC.

And if they don't Stealth spam, yur 1500 range Autos will pick them off.

Is not that simple thou, a Condi DE is as annoying as the power version and you don't kill it that easily. Even a valkyrie or marauder DE is very though. Of course those builds use the constant stealth so they behave like a bruiser instead a glass.

Glass version it is true is very easy to catch with the knockback. Nobody uses glass version of DE.

[kash.9213]

@anduriell.6280 said:

@Yasai.3549 said:

@PrinceValentine.9320 said:I saw someone on Map Chat complained about DE while she was running a pew pew ranger build with LB. Told her to toughen up her build and drop the longbow. I see a lot more newbies coming in to WvW. That's good, although it may take some time for them to change their build until they get owned several times. Most thieves will just run away after they figured out they can't down you in 1 to 2 hits unless they really want to spend time dueling you.

Sic'em + Longbow shreds DEs ez tho.It's really a L2P thing.

When DEs show up for their Spotter's spam/DJ, hit them with LB 4 > LB 2 and Sic'em and they usually either drop dead or are forced to Shadowstep away + Stealth spam while trying to get OOC.

And if they don't Stealth spam, yur 1500 range Autos will pick them off.

Is not that simple thou, a Condi DE is as annoying as the power version and you don't kill it that easily. Even a valkyrie or marauder DE is very though. Of course those builds use the constant stealth so they behave like a bruiser instead a glass.

Glass version it is true is very easy to catch with the knockback. Nobody uses glass version of DE.

If you're trying to catch someone, he did mention they'll either drop or be forced to bounce. Getting hammered by that LB rollout is dicey even with a smart stat spread, and if any of your mitigation gets stripped even a chunky health bar will burn fast. One followup pull or something should clinch it.

[Yasai.3549]

@anduriell.6280 said:

Is not that simple thou, a Condi DE is as annoying as the power version and you don't kill it that easily. Even a valkyrie or marauder DE is very though. Of course those builds use the constant stealth so they behave like a bruiser instead a glass.

Glass version it is true is very easy to catch with the knockback. Nobody uses glass version of DE.

Even after damage nerfs, not even Minstrels builds can walk away from 25% damage boosted 25 Vuln Rapidfire without a few holes in them.They may survive yes, but they will be forced to ooc because if yu are going to re-engage with a Deadeye vs someone with 1500 range autos and Mr Smoke Assault, yu have another thing coming.

[Biermeister.4678]

@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

@saerni.2584 said:

@"purple.6194" said:Well, hit two pages, Ladies and gents, original post just referring to deadeye and their ability to hide in keeps forever and port groups in from outside outer wall directly to lord room, ( yes this is a thing). No it is not a matter of strategy or skill. Yes you can do it with core and daredevil, it is easier with deadeye, people who do it aren't god gamer's I know 10 people across the NA servers ( there are more obviously merely restricting it to advance my point here) that do it for up six to hours during their respective timezones. 8 of those 10 have 600+ ping with unstable connection, 4 out of this group bug under the map to build untargettable cats from underneath. No they wont get banned its been years . While this is happening bl keeps becomes largely indefencible, redbl in particular is that much more vulnerable with the keeps being far easier to hide in and response time on that shithouse map being that much longer. As a result the keeps go to paper while the thieve's and squads that use them ktrain it up and just wait for them to logoff before bothering to upgrade on the bl's. This has its impact on everything else but again just one step at a time,

I said fix deadeye's and not fix thief for one simple reason, deadeye is the easiest to do this on, therefore that is what the keep hider's use. keep it as basic as possible, this does not need to get into the weeds of confusing concepts.If there was a skill element at all, fair enough its just an odd bad gameplay minigame within the game for players to play. There is not, this is obviously another unintentional result of throwing kitten at a wall without any followup.

I am not talking about roaming, issues with stealth generally, or strategies to 1shot thieves with rangers' cus thats solid gameplay! That is a whole other issue that obviously needs solving but again one baby step at a time. Up until this month there has been no reason to even bring it up, i don't think the forums are of much value at all, but again simply here since there was some actual wvw changes that even indicate someone is looking at wvw at all

ALSO can't resist, INB4 git gud round 2 :)

Lol. Clearly just making up examples. "I know a guy." "They are all hacking/exploiting under the map." "Six hours a day kek."

That sounds really boring. Kittens and puppies level of "why would anyone even try that for 20 minutes let alone 5+ hours?"

Oh right. Because it doesn't happen.

Also, why is permastealth even an issue if he's talking about hackers? If these people are untargetable due to being under the map, them being thieves is wholly irrelevant. If the deadeye is hiding in a keep and doing it legitimately without hacking, the fact that hackers exist is wholly irrelevant. Just sounds like an attempt to link thieves to hackers in the hope they get nerfed, frankly.

Because permastelth hides the hack and that is the problem

[saerni.2584]

@Biermeister.4678 said:

@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

@saerni.2584 said:

@"purple.6194" said:Well, hit two pages, Ladies and gents, original post just referring to deadeye and their ability to hide in keeps forever and port groups in from outside outer wall directly to lord room, ( yes this is a thing). No it is not a matter of strategy or skill. Yes you can do it with core and daredevil, it is easier with deadeye, people who do it aren't god gamer's I know 10 people across the NA servers ( there are more obviously merely restricting it to advance my point here) that do it for up six to hours during their respective timezones. 8 of those 10 have 600+ ping with unstable connection, 4 out of this group bug under the map to build untargettable cats from underneath. No they wont get banned its been years . While this is happening bl keeps becomes largely indefencible, redbl in particular is that much more vulnerable with the keeps being far easier to hide in and response time on that shithouse map being that much longer. As a result the keeps go to paper while the thieve's and squads that use them ktrain it up and just wait for them to logoff before bothering to upgrade on the bl's. This has its impact on everything else but again just one step at a time,

I said fix deadeye's and not fix thief for one simple reason, deadeye is the easiest to do this on, therefore that is what the keep hider's use. keep it as basic as possible, this does not need to get into the weeds of confusing concepts.If there was a skill element at all, fair enough its just an odd bad gameplay minigame within the game for players to play. There is not, this is obviously another unintentional result of throwing kitten at a wall without any followup.

I am not talking about roaming, issues with stealth generally, or strategies to 1shot thieves with rangers' cus thats solid gameplay! That is a whole other issue that obviously needs solving but again one baby step at a time. Up until this month there has been no reason to even bring it up, i don't think the forums are of much value at all, but again simply here since there was some actual wvw changes that even indicate someone is looking at wvw at all

ALSO can't resist, INB4 git gud round 2 :)

Lol. Clearly just making up examples. "I know a guy." "They are all hacking/exploiting under the map." "Six hours a day kek."

That sounds really boring. Kittens and puppies level of "why would anyone even try that for 20 minutes let alone 5+ hours?"

Oh right. Because it doesn't happen.

Also, why is permastealth even an issue if he's talking about hackers? If these people are untargetable due to being under the map, them being thieves is wholly irrelevant. If the deadeye is hiding in a keep and doing it legitimately without hacking, the fact that hackers exist is wholly irrelevant. Just sounds like an attempt to link thieves to hackers in the hope they get nerfed, frankly.

Because permastelth hides the hack and that is the problem

Oh don't worry. Most people using hacks aren't trying to hide it.

I fought a rev the other day. Soon as he got downed he disappeared. Later he started teleporting into camps right in front of me and others.

Permastealth doesn't hide hackers because 99% of hackers aren't running thief and don't even bother running builds with stealth either.

Professions I've seen hacking in the last year:

1. Many core engineers
2. Many core guardians/firebrands
3. A single rev

[Sylvia.4870]

Staying in the shadow for an extended time always costs some initatives or some certain ablilities. Want to take Deadeye down so badly? Land all of the burst damage you have on him while he is visible to your eyes as soon as possible.

[Biermeister.4678]

@saerni.2584 said:

@Biermeister.4678 said:

@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

@saerni.2584 said:

@"purple.6194" said:Well, hit two pages, Ladies and gents, original post just referring to deadeye and their ability to hide in keeps forever and port groups in from outside outer wall directly to lord room, ( yes this is a thing). No it is not a matter of strategy or skill. Yes you can do it with core and daredevil, it is easier with deadeye, people who do it aren't god gamer's I know 10 people across the NA servers ( there are more obviously merely restricting it to advance my point here) that do it for up six to hours during their respective timezones. 8 of those 10 have 600+ ping with unstable connection, 4 out of this group bug under the map to build untargettable cats from underneath. No they wont get banned its been years . While this is happening bl keeps becomes largely indefencible, redbl in particular is that much more vulnerable with the keeps being far easier to hide in and response time on that shithouse map being that much longer. As a result the keeps go to paper while the thieve's and squads that use them ktrain it up and just wait for them to logoff before bothering to upgrade on the bl's. This has its impact on everything else but again just one step at a time,

I said fix deadeye's and not fix thief for one simple reason, deadeye is the easiest to do this on, therefore that is what the keep hider's use. keep it as basic as possible, this does not need to get into the weeds of confusing concepts.If there was a skill element at all, fair enough its just an odd bad gameplay minigame within the game for players to play. There is not, this is obviously another unintentional result of throwing kitten at a wall without any followup.

I am not talking about roaming, issues with stealth generally, or strategies to 1shot thieves with rangers' cus thats solid gameplay! That is a whole other issue that obviously needs solving but again one baby step at a time. Up until this month there has been no reason to even bring it up, i don't think the forums are of much value at all, but again simply here since there was some actual wvw changes that even indicate someone is looking at wvw at all

ALSO can't resist, INB4 git gud round 2 :)

Lol. Clearly just making up examples. "I know a guy." "They are all hacking/exploiting under the map." "Six hours a day kek."

That sounds really boring. Kittens and puppies level of "why would anyone even try that for 20 minutes let alone 5+ hours?"

Oh right. Because it doesn't happen.

Also, why is permastealth even an issue if he's talking about hackers? If these people are untargetable due to being under the map, them being thieves is wholly irrelevant. If the deadeye is hiding in a keep and doing it legitimately without hacking, the fact that hackers exist is wholly irrelevant. Just sounds like an attempt to link thieves to hackers in the hope they get nerfed, frankly.

Because permastelth hides the hack and that is the problem

Oh don't worry. Most people using hacks aren't trying to hide it.

I fought a rev the other day. Soon as he got downed he disappeared. Later he started teleporting into camps right in front of me and others.

Permastealth doesn't hide hackers because 99% of hackers aren't running thief and don't even bother running builds with stealth either.

Professions I've seen hacking in the last year:

1. Many core engineers
2. Many core guardians/firebrands
3. A single rev

Then you have the Camp Bot DH that spawns in the middle of the camp every 5 min that was a good one to watch and kill over and over

[anduriell.6280]

@"Yasai.3549" said:Even after damage nerfs, not even Minstrels builds can walk away from 25% damage boosted 25 Vuln Rapidfire without a few holes in them.They may survive yes, but they will be forced to ooc because if yu are going to re-engage with a Deadeye vs someone with 1500 range autos and Mr Smoke Assault, yu have another thing coming.

Well if i get knocked back in my DE obviously i will go into stealth and go out of range. The pesky RapidFire like any other channelled skills will follow you.Just one correction, rapidfire will not apply 25 vuln as the maximum it can apply is 10 stacks (1 by hit). Also each impact from the rapid fire is very weak (0.275 each for a total of 2.75), the only way that skill can be a real problem is eating a big bunch of arrows.

That's why any pewpew will tell you about a single dodge even if you get some heat it will not be that threatening. And then you have 60s to finish it, before the next OWP is available again.

[whoknocks.4935]

@Caedmon.6798 said:

@Widmo.3186 said:To fix deadeye you have to delete it from the game. This spec shouldn't exist from the very beginning. Period.

Where did the thief hurt you ? Most of you aint even soloing cus you lack the skill. You run in a group and get picked out and come to the forum to complain. You have Zero experience and didnt bother to take the time to duel the class that hurts you. Its on You,not the spec. Realize this.

FYI when i ever had issues facing a certain spec or build i spend Hours dueling it and learning how to counter. If you aint up to that task,you shouldnt be complaining.

And most people don't understand the counter profession/build system.

If you are a power oneshot mesmer with 16k hp and you keep going against thieves and losing you cannot go cry on the forum how broken thief is because simply counters your profession and build.

Same as thief going against sic'em rangers all day. You can't complain.