Can you prove with video thief is strong, not the pro streamer, but YOUR video?

[Psycoprophet.8107]

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Dantheman.3589 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:You call it a cowards class, but more accurately, it a support class.

I’ve seen it all ???

What, do you disagree with that definition? Because the style of thief has been considered a support class for a very long time. Thief cannot do much of anything on their own. Their goal is to empower their team, both directly through +1ing and creating outnumbered situations, but also by applying pressure around the map through rotation and the ever-present threat of decapping. Thats a support playstyle.

I get what ur saying here as I think ur equating +1'ing as a type of support type playstyle in which ur not wrong in a sense, I just think most players when considering a support type class they think of it as a class that heals,boosts(boons) and cleanses its teammates and less so a class that supports its teammates by turning their fights into outnumbered ones.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

@"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:So either quit, or it's balanced. It still works at top level, so practice. People will scream about "balance should be determined by how class functions at top level" but get upset when it actually happens.

No they don't.

To argue for top-level balancing they have to understand skill ceiling.

Those are the people telling everyone else to "git gud" when something gets nerfed.

People not understanding skill ceiling doesn't stop them from arguing that nerfing what they personally find annoying is top-level balancing.

@Dantheman.3589 said:

@"UNOwen.7132" said:You call it a cowards class, but more accurately, it a support class.

I’ve seen it all ???

He's not wrong.

Hasn't the meta explanation been "Decap/ +1/ forbidden from duel because shortbow", and aggressively argued back to that role the moment anything deviates? What else would you call that?

[Leonidrex.5649]

@Yasai.3549 said:

@"Terrorhuz.4695" said:

The funniest thing ever though is torch5 as an interrupt tool, against thieves of all classes. I chuckled.

Let's be real, the only thing the Torch 5 ever interrupts are someone who isn't moving.Phantasms are already pretty bad, and Torch 5 and Pistol 4 are the worst of the lot, having an arbituary "cast range" where they swag-walk to their target from a distance away.

torch 5 is a big joke, the only good thing about it is its proximity burning. this is partially why condi mesmer > power mesmer as torch can both stealth and deal some manner of damage while power just gets 3s stealth.torch 5 with quickness trait can actually USUALLY land its hit ( unless someone expands a dodge ) but having to use a trait to make unusable skill usable is dumb imo.PS leave P4 be, its the best phantasm in the game.

[Dantheman.3589]

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Dantheman.3589 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:You call it a cowards class, but more accurately, it a support class.

I’ve seen it all ???

What, do you disagree with that definition? Because the style of thief has been considered a support class for a very long time. Thief cannot do much of anything on their own. Their goal is to empower their team, both directly through +1ing and creating outnumbered situations, but also by applying pressure around the map through rotation and the ever-present threat of decapping. Thats a support playstyle.

Nah man go for it. I just haven’t seen anyone besides 1 other person attempt a menders shadow savior thief. Its only viable if you put in the time to learn it, is what I usually say.

[UNOwen.7132]

@Dantheman.3589 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Dantheman.3589 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:You call it a cowards class, but more accurately, it a support class.

I’ve seen it all ???

What, do you disagree with that definition? Because the style of thief has been considered a support class for a very long time. Thief cannot do much of anything on their own. Their goal is to empower their team, both directly through +1ing and creating outnumbered situations, but also by applying pressure around the map through rotation and the ever-present threat of decapping. Thats a support playstyle.

Nah man go for it. I just haven’t seen anyone besides 1 other person attempt a menders shadow savior thief. Its only viable if you put in the time to learn it, is what I usually say.

Support and healer are not the same thing. You can be a support without healing. Its about your role in the game. And thieves role is that of a support.

[Dantheman.3589]

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Dantheman.3589 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Dantheman.3589 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:You call it a cowards class, but more accurately, it a support class.

I’ve seen it all ???

What, do you disagree with that definition? Because the style of thief has been considered a support class for a very long time. Thief cannot do much of anything on their own. Their goal is to empower their team, both directly through +1ing and creating outnumbered situations, but also by applying pressure around the map through rotation and the ever-present threat of decapping. Thats a support playstyle.

Nah man go for it. I just haven’t seen anyone besides 1 other person attempt a menders shadow savior thief. Its only viable if you put in the time to learn it, is what I usually say.

Support and healer are not the same thing. You can be a support without healing. Its about your role in the game. And thieves role is that of a support.

No, no thief cannot support with out healing, mind you rezzing is also healing. Supports that support without healing do it via damage mitigation which thief does not do.

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:So either quit, or it's balanced. It still works at top level, so practice. People will scream about "balance should be determined by how class functions at top level" but get upset when it actually happens.

No they don't.

To argue for top-level balancing they have to understand skill ceiling.

Those are the people telling everyone else to "git gud" when something gets nerfed.

People not understanding skill ceiling doesn't stop them from arguing that nerfing what they personally find annoying is top-level balancing.

You've confused two things. Arguing for a top-level balancing philosophy is different from believing that a player is at the top level. Their arguments for their annoyances can have merit, too. Looks like you've decided to just declare people hypocrites without actually checking first.

[whoknocks.4935]

In WvW it is the best roaming class due to stealth and mobility, and that's a fact. Even tho to actually kill people 1vs1 you need knowledge of all class mechanics, or even a noob sic'em Soulbeast can easily 100-0 you.In PvP it's not easy mode at all.

[Cynz.9437]

@Avatar.3568 said:You can't win against a team with a Thief when you don't have one

Yes, you can. I just lost match as thief while enemy had none. Simply because my team kept wiping 4v3 on the way to mid. I can't really decap anything when their enemy afks at our home and far.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

@"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:Lets cut to the chase and be straight with people. The real question here is "Should Anet balance a profession in PVP around peak performance, or average performance?" This is an old question. So old, in fact, that I remember it being discussed when Grouch was nerfing engineers over and over again because he was an excellent engineer player who would body the competition regardless. I don't think we ever got an answer.

Personally I say we should balance around peak performance, for a couple of reasons. Number one, the people who care most about balance are the hardcore players who can afford to put endless hours into practicing their profession. Everyone else below that level has different concerns, like learning how all of the professions work and how to navigate the U.I. Second, good design at the top tends to trickle down into other modes, whereas broken design at the bottom tends to ruin things the further you go up in the skill ladder. Third, you can't tell someone to work around broken design at the bottom because those problems will be magnified at the top, but you can tell somebody at the bottom to git gud, because that is when their profession will start to shine.

whats the difference between peak performance balance and broken design at the bottom? i think i understand what you're saying on paper at least. lets take head shot for example. bad players spam it and waste it, but anyone with middling skill can shut out any other skill with high cast time. so yes, better players make better use of it obviously, but its also kinda broken if you can get that much shut down potential with one skill. same goes for shadow shot, it shuts down all kiting and mobility. same went for the old 3 ini sb 3, the best sustain tool teef had. on and on for all professions.

imo its better to balance all professions around average performance and balance general gameplay around peak performance. professions should be easy to pick up and fun to play so new players will want to play them. general gameplay is kinda already there except for some outliers which will always exist.

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:

@"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:Lets cut to the chase and be straight with people. The real question here is "Should Anet balance a profession in PVP around peak performance, or average performance?" This is an old question. So old, in fact, that I remember it being discussed when Grouch was nerfing engineers over and over again because he was an excellent engineer player who would body the competition regardless. I don't think we ever got an answer.

Personally I say we should balance around peak performance, for a couple of reasons. Number one, the people who care most about balance are the hardcore players who can afford to put endless hours into practicing their profession. Everyone else below that level has different concerns, like learning how all of the professions work and how to navigate the U.I. Second, good design at the top tends to trickle down into other modes, whereas broken design at the bottom tends to ruin things the further you go up in the skill ladder. Third, you can't tell someone to work around broken design at the bottom because those problems will be magnified at the top, but you can tell somebody at the bottom to git gud, because that is when their profession will start to shine.

whats the difference between peak performance balance and broken design at the bottom? i think i understand what you're saying on paper at least. lets take head shot for example. bad players spam it and waste it, but anyone with middling skill can shut out any other skill with high cast time. so yes, better players make better use of it obviously, but its also kinda broken if you can get that much shut down potential with one skill. same goes for shadow shot, it shuts down all kiting and mobility. same went for the old 3 ini sb 3, the best sustain tool teef had. on and on for all professions.

imo its better to balance all professions around average performance and balance general gameplay around peak performance. professions should be easy to pick up and fun to play so new players will want to play them. general gameplay is kinda already there except for some outliers which will always exist.

The difference is that to make things balanced for newcomers, casuals, or the average player, you'd have to make it so all of the little difficulties that each profession has is over-compensated for. Basically, you'd have to make it so, in the hands of a casual, that the thief or the ele would be just as good as the warrior or necromancer. I call this broken design, because it means that the professions are purposefully weighed unevenly, just to deal with their learning curve. Profession experience can only diverge as players get better at the game. Competitive PVP would become dominated by one or two professions, because those professions would need to be overpowered to deal with their learning curve.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:snips

yeah i see what you're saying. doesn't make sense to say professions are weighed unevenly if all professions get the same compensation but w/e. what do you think about the 15k hp base for all professions idea (should be 2200 armor base too imo), do you think it could help with this learning curve?

[Sobx.1758]

@Moradorin.6217 said:

@"lightstalker.1498" said:I would like to see YOU, the one complaining about thief, show casing how thief is OP, and can we see last 10 games played on thief screenshot with at or above 50% win rate? It is a sad state of affairs when devs balance the game around streamers. Some really do nothing else, and I would hope that means they are good at the game, if you get my drift.

Sure here is a video I made recently. exactly 10 minutes into the video I ambushed by an high rank d/p thief. Although I did defeat the thief in both fights, I think its pretty clear that the thief lost almost by choice. What I mean is, the thief is able to reset over and over trying to get a burst. At the same time, on Mirage my clones run around and almost never actually make contact. The actual kill on the thief is very short using confusion, which is NOT easy. Most of the time these fights go to the thief.

Exactly 10 minutes into the video my fight with a d/p DD starts. The clip right after is the DDs 2nd attempt which also fails.

"I can consistently win against thieves if they decide to fight me, but if they decide to fight me then it's automatically losing by choice. Class broken because it can run away".

Isn't this what you've just said?

[Lucentfir.7430]

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Moradorin.6217 said:

@"lightstalker.1498" said:I would like to see YOU, the one complaining about thief, show casing how thief is OP, and can we see last 10 games played on thief screenshot with at or above 50% win rate? It is a sad state of affairs when devs balance the game around streamers. Some really do nothing else, and I would hope that means they are good at the game, if you get my drift.

Sure here is a video I made recently. exactly 10 minutes into the video I ambushed by an high rank d/p thief. Although I did defeat the thief in both fights, I think its pretty clear that the thief lost almost by choice. What I mean is, the thief is able to reset over and over trying to get a burst. At the same time, on Mirage my clones run around and almost never actually make contact. The actual kill on the thief is very short using confusion, which is NOT easy. Most of the time these fights go to the thief.

Exactly 10 minutes into the video my fight with a d/p DD starts. The clip right after is the DDs 2nd attempt which also fails.

"I can consistently win against thieves if they decide to fight me, but if they decide to fight me then it's automatically losing

by choice

. Class broken because it can run away".

Isn't this what you've just said?

How much you want to bet they're running Trailblazers too.? :P

[Moradorin.6217]

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Moradorin.6217 said:

@"lightstalker.1498" said:I would like to see YOU, the one complaining about thief, show casing how thief is OP, and can we see last 10 games played on thief screenshot with at or above 50% win rate? It is a sad state of affairs when devs balance the game around streamers. Some really do nothing else, and I would hope that means they are good at the game, if you get my drift.

Sure here is a video I made recently. exactly 10 minutes into the video I ambushed by an high rank d/p thief. Although I did defeat the thief in both fights, I think its pretty clear that the thief lost almost by choice. What I mean is, the thief is able to reset over and over trying to get a burst. At the same time, on Mirage my clones run around and almost never actually make contact. The actual kill on the thief is very short using confusion, which is NOT easy. Most of the time these fights go to the thief.

Exactly 10 minutes into the video my fight with a d/p DD starts. The clip right after is the DDs 2nd attempt which also fails.

"I can consistently win against thieves if they decide to fight me, but if they decide to fight me then it's automatically losing

by choice

. Class broken because it can run away".

Isn't this what you've just said?

Obviously not. Your statement smells like troll bait. =)

[Sobx.1758]

@Moradorin.6217 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Moradorin.6217 said:

@"lightstalker.1498" said:I would like to see YOU, the one complaining about thief, show casing how thief is OP, and can we see last 10 games played on thief screenshot with at or above 50% win rate? It is a sad state of affairs when devs balance the game around streamers. Some really do nothing else, and I would hope that means they are good at the game, if you get my drift.

Sure here is a video I made recently. exactly 10 minutes into the video I ambushed by an high rank d/p thief. Although I did defeat the thief in both fights, I think its pretty clear that the thief lost almost by choice. What I mean is, the thief is able to reset over and over trying to get a burst. At the same time, on Mirage my clones run around and almost never actually make contact. The actual kill on the thief is very short using confusion, which is NOT easy. Most of the time these fights go to the thief.

Exactly 10 minutes into the video my fight with a d/p DD starts. The clip right after is the DDs 2nd attempt which also fails.

"I can consistently win against thieves if they decide to fight me, but if they decide to fight me then it's automatically losing

by choice

. Class broken because it can run away".

Isn't this what you've just said?

Obviously not. Your statement smells like troll bait. =)

In what way what you said doesn't mean what I said? Explain what you meant then. You were supposed to show thief being op [while playing it], but all you did was link to a vid [from a different mode btw] where you win against thief twice and then claimed "thief lost by choice". Apparently that "choice" being "actually fighting".

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

@Dantheman.3589 said:

@"UNOwen.7132" said:Support and healer are not the same thing. You can be a support without healing. Its about your role in the game. And thieves role is that of a support.

No, no thief cannot support with out healing, mind you rezzing is also healing. Supports that support without healing do it via damage mitigation which thief does not do.

UNO is correct here. Support literally just means to support someone else to amplify their performance. Typical +1 thief falls into that category, but it's given a special name, which is a +1 roamer.

A Firebrand can +1 someone, but it's a different kind of support. When we talk Linguistics, people will automatically assume that when you say "+1 me", they mean "send in a DPS to kill this guy" and not "i need a healer."

+1 also isn't exclusive to just thief, it implies for someone to literally come to add another person to a fight. You can ask for a +1, during a 2v1, to make it a 2v2. Doesn't have to be a thief either.

[Moradorin.6217]

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Moradorin.6217 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Moradorin.6217 said:

@"lightstalker.1498" said:I would like to see YOU, the one complaining about thief, show casing how thief is OP, and can we see last 10 games played on thief screenshot with at or above 50% win rate? It is a sad state of affairs when devs balance the game around streamers. Some really do nothing else, and I would hope that means they are good at the game, if you get my drift.

Sure here is a video I made recently. exactly 10 minutes into the video I ambushed by an high rank d/p thief. Although I did defeat the thief in both fights, I think its pretty clear that the thief lost almost by choice. What I mean is, the thief is able to reset over and over trying to get a burst. At the same time, on Mirage my clones run around and almost never actually make contact. The actual kill on the thief is very short using confusion, which is NOT easy. Most of the time these fights go to the thief.

Exactly 10 minutes into the video my fight with a d/p DD starts. The clip right after is the DDs 2nd attempt which also fails.

"I can consistently win against thieves if they decide to fight me, but if they decide to fight me then it's automatically losing

by choice

. Class broken because it can run away".

Isn't this what you've just said?

Obviously not. Your statement smells like troll bait. =)

In what way what you said doesn't mean what I said? Explain what you meant then. You were supposed to show thief being op [while playing it], but all you did was link to a vid [from a different mode btw] where you win against thief twice and then claimed "thief lost by choice". Apparently that "choice" being "actually fighting".

The thief for SURE lost by choice. My post talking about that is VERY clear. You are obviously looking for an agument and hoping to miss represent facts to do it.

The thief lost by choice because in the video you can literally see the thief stealth and reset out of range many many times. Each time the thief has the option to leave the fight if it ever felt it might lose or was in a losing match-up. Therefore, as I said before the thief was arguably being lazy and assuming it would get the kill because its probably used to face-rolling over Mesmer and others. In other words, the thief CHOSE to ambush me and had multiple chances to leave the fight and live if it ever thought it was in a losing fight. So obviously it thought it was in a winning fight and was wrong. That means it was 100% the thief's choice/mistake all the way from start to finish. Its extremely clear and not even really debatable.

[Sobx.1758]

@Moradorin.6217 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Moradorin.6217 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Moradorin.6217 said:

@"lightstalker.1498" said:I would like to see YOU, the one complaining about thief, show casing how thief is OP, and can we see last 10 games played on thief screenshot with at or above 50% win rate? It is a sad state of affairs when devs balance the game around streamers. Some really do nothing else, and I would hope that means they are good at the game, if you get my drift.

Sure here is a video I made recently. exactly 10 minutes into the video I ambushed by an high rank d/p thief. Although I did defeat the thief in both fights, I think its pretty clear that the thief lost almost by choice. What I mean is, the thief is able to reset over and over trying to get a burst. At the same time, on Mirage my clones run around and almost never actually make contact. The actual kill on the thief is very short using confusion, which is NOT easy. Most of the time these fights go to the thief.

Exactly 10 minutes into the video my fight with a d/p DD starts. The clip right after is the DDs 2nd attempt which also fails.

"I can consistently win against thieves if they decide to fight me, but if they decide to fight me then it's automatically losing

by choice

. Class broken because it can run away".

Isn't this what you've just said?

Obviously not. Your statement smells like troll bait. =)

In what way what you said doesn't mean what I said? Explain what you meant then. You were supposed to show thief being op [while playing it], but all you did was link to a vid [from a different mode btw] where you win against thief twice and then claimed "thief lost by choice". Apparently that "choice" being "actually fighting".

The thief for SURE lost by choice. My post talking about that is VERY clear. You are obviously looking for an agument and hoping to miss represent facts to do it.

The thief lost by choice because in the video you can literally see the thief stealth and reset out of range many many times. Each time the thief has the option to leave the fight

if it ever felt it might lose or was in a losing match-up. Therefore, as I said before the thief was arguably being lazy and assuming it would get the kill because its probably used to face-rolling over Mesmer and others. In other words, the thief CHOSE to ambush me and had multiple chances to leave the fight and live if it ever thought it was in a losing fight. So obviously it thought it was in a winning fight and was wrong. That means it was 100% the thief's choice/mistake all the way from start to finish. Its extremely clear and not even really debatable.

...so you think he "lost by choice because he didn't run away". Not sure why you've tried calling me a troll and then repeated what I said (and what you said before).

You try to say "the thief thought he was in a winning fight" based on what exactly? Based on the fact that he didn't "run away for good," despite needing to disengage multiple times to not die earlier? That's hilarious. Absolutely make sure to tell me where that conclusion came from.And the fact that whenever he disengaged and re-engaged, you also had the time to heal up is somehow irrelvant here? It's almost as if he taking his time also give you time to do whatever you want to do and helped you stand your ground.You say that "he's used to face-rolling over mesmer and others", but somehow he didn't faceroll you? Why exactly? Why is the thief using stealth or running unfair, but you utilizing your mechanic and standing between your clones is perfectly fine? Running isn't winning, not even close. Even moreso in pvp gamemode btw.

[Moradorin.6217]

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Moradorin.6217 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Moradorin.6217 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Moradorin.6217 said:

@"lightstalker.1498" said:I would like to see YOU, the one complaining about thief, show casing how thief is OP, and can we see last 10 games played on thief screenshot with at or above 50% win rate? It is a sad state of affairs when devs balance the game around streamers. Some really do nothing else, and I would hope that means they are good at the game, if you get my drift.

Sure here is a video I made recently. exactly 10 minutes into the video I ambushed by an high rank d/p thief. Although I did defeat the thief in both fights, I think its pretty clear that the thief lost almost by choice. What I mean is, the thief is able to reset over and over trying to get a burst. At the same time, on Mirage my clones run around and almost never actually make contact. The actual kill on the thief is very short using confusion, which is NOT easy. Most of the time these fights go to the thief.

Exactly 10 minutes into the video my fight with a d/p DD starts. The clip right after is the DDs 2nd attempt which also fails.

"I can consistently win against thieves if they decide to fight me, but if they decide to fight me then it's automatically losing

by choice

. Class broken because it can run away".

Isn't this what you've just said?

Obviously not. Your statement smells like troll bait. =)

In what way what you said doesn't mean what I said? Explain what you meant then. You were supposed to show thief being op [while playing it], but all you did was link to a vid [from a different mode btw] where you win against thief twice and then claimed "thief lost by choice". Apparently that "choice" being "actually fighting".

The thief for SURE lost by choice. My post talking about that is VERY clear. You are obviously looking for an agument and hoping to miss represent facts to do it.

The thief lost by choice because in the video you can literally see the thief stealth and reset out of range many many times. Each time the thief has the option to leave the fight

if it ever felt it might lose or was in a losing match-up. Therefore, as I said before the thief was arguably being lazy and assuming it would get the kill because its probably used to face-rolling over Mesmer and others. In other words, the thief CHOSE to ambush me and had multiple chances to leave the fight and live if it ever thought it was in a losing fight. So obviously it thought it was in a winning fight and was wrong. That means it was 100% the thief's choice/mistake all the way from start to finish. Its extremely clear and not even really debatable.

...so you think he "lost by choice because he didn't run away". Not sure why you've tried calling me a troll and then repeated what I said (and what you said before).

You try to say "the thief thought he was in a winning fight" based on what exactly? Based on the fact that he didn't "run away for good," despite needing to disengage multiple times to not die earlier? That's hilarious. Absolutely make sure to tell me where that conclusion came from.And the fact that whenever he disengaged and re-engaged, you also had the time to heal up is somehow irrelvant here? It's almost as if he taking his time also give you time to do whatever you want to do and helped you stand your ground.You say that "he's used to face-rolling over mesmer and others", but somehow he didn't faceroll you? Why exactly? Why is the thief using stealth or running unfair, but you utilizing your mechanic and standing between your clones is perfectly fine? Running isn't winning, not even close. Even moreso in pvp gamemode btw.

You really make no sense.

I was standing still typing in chat, thief stealth attacks me and stealth again so quick that clones cannot reach thief. the thief keeps stealthing and attacking a mostly stationary target (me) who didn't instigate the attack or chase the thief. Repeatedly the clones cannot even hit the thief because it can restealth so fast after attacks that Mirage (me) almost cannot hit the thief. The thief does significant damage to my Trailblazer Mirage. The thief can reset over and over. What kinda stuff are you smoking? I might like some too! Blather on all u like though about thief.

[Moradorin.6217]

Usually a competent thief would win that match-up or be able to get away. The mesmer has a chance to kill the thief because it has very low hp so if the opponent can cc in time, that is, basically stun 2-3 times then burst they can squish the thief; Likewise if they stun/rupt and burst while the thief is dealing with breaking and next move than the opponent can win. However, as we all know, a good thief knows this and plans for it. That is unless they are playing sloppy. the mindful thief would plan for that and make sure it has a strategy to win and disengage if something fails. That is what thieves do. They pick out a good target, attack and either get a quick kill or reset when the opponent is not what the thief thought they reset and vanish into the mist, Thief is the best at doing this.

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:

@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:snips

yeah i see what you're saying. doesn't make sense to say professions are weighed unevenly if all professions get the same compensation but w/e. what do you think about the 15k hp base for all professions idea (should be 2200 armor base too imo), do you think it could help with this learning curve?

They would be compensated for their differences. It would just be at the competitive level.

As for normalizing base HP, I'm largely indifferent to it. My knowledge of PVP is mostly historical, and historically the base HP has little to do with overall profession performance. There's been times when Ele and Guard were meta while Warrior and Necro weren't. Mesmer and Thief trade places in the roster all the time, and it rarely has to do with which one has more HP.

It comes down to a variety of factors (boons, invulnerability skills, mobility, CC), but skills overall have more of an impact than raw stats do. I learned this the hard way, back when I would main necro pre-HoT and would get thrown around like a ping-pong ball. All that extra health didn't matter, because I spent the whole time stunned. That extra health goes down surprisingly fast when focused or burst down, so going from 15k to 19k meant I lived through 2-3 more attacks.

In theory Anet could normalize health/armor and adjust everything else around it. But, Anet likes their professions to have flavor, and making everyone have the same stuff just makes the gameplay between professions bland.

[Sobx.1758]

@Moradorin.6217 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Moradorin.6217 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Moradorin.6217 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Moradorin.6217 said:

@"lightstalker.1498" said:I would like to see YOU, the one complaining about thief, show casing how thief is OP, and can we see last 10 games played on thief screenshot with at or above 50% win rate? It is a sad state of affairs when devs balance the game around streamers. Some really do nothing else, and I would hope that means they are good at the game, if you get my drift.

Sure here is a video I made recently. exactly 10 minutes into the video I ambushed by an high rank d/p thief. Although I did defeat the thief in both fights, I think its pretty clear that the thief lost almost by choice. What I mean is, the thief is able to reset over and over trying to get a burst. At the same time, on Mirage my clones run around and almost never actually make contact. The actual kill on the thief is very short using confusion, which is NOT easy. Most of the time these fights go to the thief.

Exactly 10 minutes into the video my fight with a d/p DD starts. The clip right after is the DDs 2nd attempt which also fails.

"I can consistently win against thieves if they decide to fight me, but if they decide to fight me then it's automatically losing

by choice

. Class broken because it can run away".

Isn't this what you've just said?

Obviously not. Your statement smells like troll bait. =)

In what way what you said doesn't mean what I said? Explain what you meant then. You were supposed to show thief being op [while playing it], but all you did was link to a vid [from a different mode btw] where you win against thief twice and then claimed "thief lost by choice". Apparently that "choice" being "actually fighting".

The thief for SURE lost by choice. My post talking about that is VERY clear. You are obviously looking for an agument and hoping to miss represent facts to do it.

The thief lost by choice because in the video you can literally see the thief stealth and reset out of range many many times. Each time the thief has the option to leave the fight

if it ever felt it might lose or was in a losing match-up. Therefore, as I said before the thief was arguably being lazy and assuming it would get the kill because its probably used to face-rolling over Mesmer and others. In other words, the thief CHOSE to ambush me and had multiple chances to leave the fight and live if it ever thought it was in a losing fight. So obviously it thought it was in a winning fight and was wrong. That means it was 100% the thief's choice/mistake all the way from start to finish. Its extremely clear and not even really debatable.

...so you think he "lost by choice because he didn't run away". Not sure why you've tried calling me a troll and then repeated what I said (and what you said before).

You try to say "the thief thought he was in a winning fight" based on what exactly? Based on the fact that he didn't "run away for good," despite needing to disengage multiple times to not die earlier? That's hilarious. Absolutely make sure to tell me where that conclusion came from.And the fact that whenever he disengaged and re-engaged, you also had the time to heal up is somehow irrelvant here? It's almost as if he taking his time also give you time to do whatever you want to do and helped you stand your ground.You say that "he's used to face-rolling over mesmer and others", but somehow he didn't faceroll you? Why exactly? Why is the thief using stealth or running unfair, but you utilizing your mechanic and standing between your clones is perfectly fine? Running isn't winning, not even close. Even moreso in pvp gamemode btw.

You really make no sense.

At which part exactly? (inb4 "all of it" which is not a valid answer, but just an effort to escape facts you don't like :( )

I was standing still typing in chat, thief stealth attacks me and stealth again so quick that clones cannot reach thief. the thief keeps stealthing and attacking a mostly stationary target (me) who didn't instigate the attack or chase the thief. Repeatedly the clones cannot even hit the thief because it can restealth so fast after attacks that Mirage (me) almost cannot hit the thief. The thief does significant damage to my Trailblazer Mirage. The thief can reset over and over.

"stealths and attack a mostly stationary target who didn't instigate the attack"? "repeatedly the clones cannot even hit the thief?" "significant dmg"? You were at 16k+ hp for vast majority of that fight.It's pretty funny because your description here is just a plain lie, maybe you should rewatch your own video before trying to talk back?

10:02 -start of the fight, thief deals 7k of free dmg because -just like you said- you stand in the middle of wvw and type (not sure how that's supposed to play into you trying to show thief is op, but ok :lol: )10:22 -you're already at about the same hp %. Thief stealths, but still takes some condi dmg, now he's at lower hp % (and just flat lower hp, but that was true since the start of the fight, so w/e) than you are. Good job achieving that while claiming the thief is impossible to hit I guess?Now you're just standing behind the clones, waiting for the thief to appear/re-engage. Which he does and so he takes more dmg going from 60%+ hp to 20%. All that not exactly by you somehow outplaying him or presenting some hightened gamesense with exceptional mouse-skill-clicking reflexes, but mostly by standing near your clones (which, as you claim, can't even hit the thief -must be magic).Thief burns heal and stealths, because he already almost died, while you're still at >16k hp. The fight resets for both of you and at this point... so much for your "he thought he'll easly win theory, when he pretty much already lost once and had to run away.

Then he re-engages again, tries to burst you, he can't, you stand by the clones, yaddayaddayadda, same story as before, goes down to 11% hp, while you're still at 13k. At this point he disengages again, but you actually even get out of combat first to heal back to full hp when he's still at below 40%. Now YOU engage him, he barely touches you and dies because you're clearly some kind of skill-clicking condi mirage god or something xd

What kinda stuff are you smoking? I might like some too! Blather on all u like though about thief.

Aww buddy -pretty clearly if anyone's "smoking something" here, it's not me. Keep making your own reality despite the video you've posted by yourself.

As you said, I pointed out and then you confirmed again: the thief "lost by choice", because he chose to participate in a fight while in wvw instead of running away and pveing camps I guess.

[Moradorin.6217]

@JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

@Moradorin.6217 said:Usually a competent thief would win that match-up or be able to get away. The mesmer has a chance to kill the thief because it has very low hp so if the opponent can cc in time, that is, basically stun 2-3 times then burst they can squish the thief; Likewise if they stun/rupt and burst while the thief is dealing with breaking and next move than the opponent can win. However, as we all know, a good thief knows this and plans for it. That is

unless they are playing sloppy

. the mindful thief would plan for that and make sure it has a strategy to win and disengage if something fails. That is what thieves do. They pick out a good target, attack and either get a quick kill or reset when the opponent is not what the thief thought they reset and vanish into the mist, Thief is the best at doing this.

How can you talk about what a competent thief would do when you still skill click, and backpeddle. You are not in the bracket where you even understand what a competent thief can or would do...ill explain

Firstly, Majority of thief you see in Ranked will not take on a 1v1 on any class unless it's Mesmer. The only reason they decide to do this is because of stealing ecto, and using the ecto give self resistance. This resistance helps sustain condition damage to negate pressure against a condition Mesmer. Ecto is literally the only reason they stick around in the fight. If thief misses steal and can't secure the ecto, they will disengage, because they DO NOT have the capacity to sustain any kind of condition pressure. If they miss Steal on Mesmer, especially a Mirage, it's a sign of inexp thieves that hasn't learned how to fight a mesmer. (Or in the rare case, fights a really good mesmer that knows how to stack dodges or predict steal)

Ecto has now been nerfed, so i don't even know if the above is even applicable anymore, but prior to ecto nerf, this was the decision basis for thief in ranked, and really any 1v1 between mesmer-thief.

As for other classes, exp thieves will at least learn how to duel these classes so that when they need to burst these classes, they will know what to avoid as counter pressure, and when to apply their damage. This is why almost all vet thieves know each other...because we duel all the time. Duel Arena being empty and dead, is a sign that all the vet thieves have left.

In other words, thief has to know 10x more knowledge about the game in order to actually play it well, whereas, you can skill click and backpeddle and abuse clone ai to land your damage on any class with relative ease.

So your argument is that the plat soldier (over 3500 rank) who attacked me lost because thief is weak, because according to you, me ,the guy who won 2x, is a noob (im rank 900) and the poor inexperienced thief (plat rank and instigated attack every time) died due to lack of experience to the less skilled mesmer.... Your argument really has zero merit. I would say what I think of you but then this would get deleted.

By ecto do you mean plasma? I know you said yourself you no longer play. Maybe your information is out of date?

[Moradorin.6217]

Again, Thief has a hell of allot of reset potential, thief has agency, when a thief loses to a player with 1/4 the equivalent rank in that game mode and they choose to ambush that player with a thief, they are 100% responsible for what ever happens win or lose. Can I have some crack too??