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WvW Spawn bad design


nargilli.6987

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There are many design problems with spawn corner in WvW, as it is implemented now one server can spawncamp for hours the others because they can reach without problems the spawn gate with people (not mentioning ranger's pet that can go even further) and range kill everything , if you place siege in the keep in front of the spawn you can siege the spawn gate so every siege deployed in front of it to counter the spawncamp can be destroyed, and even better you can't build any siege out of sight in front of the spawn due to the "Siege Deployment Blocked" and even if you succceed to do it at the very limit, any treb that you build at spawn can't destroy the other treb at keep that on the contrary can always destroy you (higher ground?), so you can put tons of siege in front of the keep to target tha spawn, but at spawn you cant place any siege to counter properly also due to the "limit to how many siege weapons can be placed within a certain radius", remember at spawn you have less space in front of the gate, this cause hours of easy spawnacamping impossible to counter even because you need a Map Q blob to break the spawncamp, and most of the time you can't even enter the map due to the recent nerf/restriction on map limit, if you even try to use Champion Commander Siegecrusher he do not even try to take back the keep but do a wide path to try to reach one of the side tower.

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Thank You for Your contribution, I understand that You also have PvE, PvP, fractals, Dungeons, Raid and so on.I just wanted to point out how some can harass other people by using flaws in the game in their favor, Arenanet did something similar in the past to avoid deadlocks in the game when the devs changed SMC shape or Dragonbanner mechanics, golemancer runes etc.

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@"nargilli.6987" said:[...]

This is not what "spawn camping" means. Spawn camping would imply you're unable to respawn without almost instantly being dragged into the combat again. In wvw this is not the case. You also have more than 1 exit, so not sure how an enemy or even a group of enemies standing at one of them is a huge issue at all even if you were unable to change the maps.Overally this is neither a "bug" nor the case of a "bad design". Seriously, people should stop using "bad design" as a term (and main argument) for "something I dislike".


ediit: this thread was posted in a "bug" subforum with a different title

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@"nargilli.6987" said:There are many design problems with spawn corner in WvW, as it is implemented now one server can spawncamp for hours the others because they can reach without problems the spawn gate with people (not mentioning ranger's pet that can go even further) and range kill everything , if you place siege in the keep in front of the spawn you can siege the spawn gate so every siege deployed in front of it to counter the spawncamp can be destroyed, and even better you can't build any siege out of sight in front of the spawn due to the "Siege Deployment Blocked" and even if you succceed to do it at the very limit, any treb that you build at spawn can't destroy the other treb at keep that on the contrary can always destroy you (higher ground?), so you can put tons of siege in front of the keep to target tha spawn, but at spawn you cant place any siege to counter properly also due to the "limit to how many siege weapons can be placed within a certain radius", remember at spawn you have less space in front of the gate, this cause hours of easy spawnacamping impossible to counter even because you need a Map Q blob to break the spawncamp, and most of the time you can't even enter the map due to the recent nerf/restriction on map limit, if you even try to use Champion Commander Siegecrusher he do not even try to take back the keep but do a wide path to try to reach one of the side tower.

Well there are many things that are not balanced, you can use the conquered keep as a higher ground and defensive structure were to build sieges like trebs having a safe spot, othere trebs at spawn camp are always in open field so no higher ground or safe spot. you can't use spawncamp walls, also the space at spawn is reduced so you can build just few siege (limit on the number in a certain area), at keep you can spread the siege plus you can place a pletora of open field siege just in front of the spawn gate with an heavy cover from behind at the keep, virtually away from any siege from spawn camp, the treb at keep wall can hit your treb in open field but at the same distance your treb can't hit the one in keep even with maxed masteries.

It's also easy to control the only 3 exits from spawn that are visible and covered by keep sieges, you are virtually at a corner.

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@"Sobx.1758" said:Overally this is neither a "bug" nor the case of a "bad design". Seriously, people should stop using "bad design" as a term (and main argument) for "something I dislike".

It was said the same in the past for things that, sometimes after years, Arenanet (finally) changed, even the spawn camp at the time allowed to build siege inside and was changed for a reason, maybe it's time to change again due to the evolution of the game since then or depending on player abuse of game mechanics, so sometimes is better to take in consideration things that are "the status quo" at the moment and ask yourself if really they are well designed, a game that think to be "perfect" will never evolve and it is dead.

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@NaramSin.2693 said:

@"Sobx.1758" said:Overally this is neither a "bug" nor the case of a "bad design". Seriously, people should stop using "bad design" as a term (and main argument) for "something I dislike".

It was said the same in the past for things that, sometimes after years, Arenanet (finally) changed, even the spawn camp at the time allowed to build siege inside and was changed for a reason, maybe it's time to change again due to the evolution of the game since then or depending on player abuse of game mechanics, so sometimes is better to take in consideration things that are "the status quo" at the moment and ask yourself if really they are well designed, a game that think to be "perfect" will never evolve and it is dead.

I see you're interested in talking in absolute hypothetical theories, but I'm not sure what value it has here. Anet is allowed to "change something, sometimes after years", because some ideas and concept may naturally change. But if you don't see the difference between "enemies standing nearby one of 3 exits" (and NOT spawncamping/spawnkilling, because they can't) and "building siege equipment in zones that are designed to be normally not accessible by enemies, while being able to shoot back at them from those safezones" then I'll need you to explain to me how these are similar concepts, because currently I don't get it.

One way or another, he can wish for something to change, but there's absolutely no need to dress something as "a bug" or "bad design" when it's neither of those things.

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@"Sobx.1758" said:I see you're interested in talking in absolute hypothetical theories, but I'm not sure what value it has here. Anet is allowed to "change something, sometimes after years", because some ideas and concept may naturally changeOne way or another, he can wish for something to change, but there's absolutely no need to dress something as "a bug" or "bad design" when it's neither of those things.

they were all bugs, not theories, they change and balance things everythime someone focus their attention on a possible flaw in the game, and sometimes they fix it or not depending on the priorities, i don't want to list here all the cases, but trust me they were always bugs or bad design from the beginning, btw we are talking about something different from this topic you can open another thread about what can be considered bug or not, could be interesting to discuss.

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But if you don't see the difference between "enemies standing nearby one of 3 exits" (and NOT spawncamping/spawnkilling, because they can't) and "building siege equipment in zones that are designed to be normally not accessible by enemies, while being able to shoot back at them from those safezones" then I'll need you to explain to me how these are similar concepts, because currently I don't get it.

I'll try to explain:

one side have a defensive structure with no limitations with a range of x to hit youYou have a defensive structure with many limitations that you can't use a t a range of x and you can't hit what is on the other defended structure.

One player have the whole map and you have just one corner with 1 (one) access, you are not in a similar situation in an open field, every map has strategic points and accesses but you are in open field, here you are in a corner with a barrier in front of you, you can't hit the enemy and they can throw everything at you just because your only access way are camped by a pletora of enemy sieges, you can't flank, you can't come from behind etc this is only due to the topological design of the map that is just a square, could be nice for a flat earth enthusiasti but from my personal point of view this is a great gift to the other side, there are limits that are given just to the weak side.

And this is not good for the game experience, you are giving a great advantage to the strong side, for this reason they do spawncamping for hours, maybe the only way is that the third side start to react and engage them from behind but this is not always possible. so in this case you have really a deadlock.

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@"NaramSin.2693" said:

But if you don't see the difference between
"enemies standing nearby one of 3 exits"
(and NOT spawncamping/spawnkilling, because they can't) and
"building siege equipment in zones that are designed to be normally not accessible by enemies, while being able to shoot back at them from those safezones"
then I'll need you to explain to me how these are similar concepts, because currently I don't get it.

I'll try to explain:

one side have a defensive structure with no limitations with a range of x to hit youYou have a defensive structure with many limitations that you can't use a t a range of x and you can't hit what is on the other defended structure.

One player have the whole map and you have just one corner with 1 (one) access, you are not in a similar situation in an open field, every map has strategic points and accesses but you are in open field, here you are in a corner with a barrier in front of you, you can't hit the enemy and they can throw everything at you just because your only access way are camped by a pletora of enemy sieges, you can't flank, you can't come from behind etc this is only due to the topological design of the map that is just a square, could be nice for a flat earth enthusiasti but from my personal point of view this is a great gift to the other side, there are limits that are given just to the weak side.

And this is not good for the game experience, you are giving a great advantage to the strong side, for this reason they do spawncamping for hours, maybe the only way is that the third side start to react and engage them from behind but this is not always possible. so in this case you have really a deadlock.

Ok, I might be misunderstanding what you mean here because your choice of naming things in an exacmple gets in the way for me -it would be easier if you used actual WvW terms in this post, as "defensive structure", "range of x", "many limitations" doesn't tell me a lot to paint a proper picture.

Anyways, considering this is about spawn safezones being camped:Enemy sieges that aren't in a safe zone, so even if build behind the walls, can be accessed and destroyed (as opposed to the spawn area). Sieges that people need to sit by to use them, which means your side is already winning in numbers against them. Sieges that don't guard 3 entrances. Sieges that have slow projectiles, so can be rather easly dodged. Sieges that can't move, so you can pick your targets to cap and fight over instead of trying to take the most guardeed one. So... where's the "bug" or "bad design" here? How are you unable to leave the spawn because of some trebs? Am I even understanding this correctly? :no_mouth:

@Linken.6345 said:If you have that much of a problem with it stay on your home borderland were you have this in my oppinion imagened advantage.EditIs this what the american servers are like?I have never been spawned camped on any of the boarderlands.

Same.

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@"Linken.6345" said:If you have that much of a problem with it stay on your home borderland were you have this in my oppinion imagened advantage.EditIs this what the american servers are like?I have never been spawned camped on any of the boarderlands.

I've seen some "spawn camping" (i hesitate to call it that, it's not the same as you'll see), in EU servers.

But what it boils down to it is not that a blob is camping at spawn and killing anyone that dares get out, it's more like, an opposing guild comes and waits there for guild fights. And they don't just bomb everyone as soon as they're in range, they wait for everyone to stack, buff, etc., then fight a bit. If the guild closes to spawn is defeated, they wait for another fight, prep, stack, etc., and if the "spawncamping" (again, that's not spawncamping) guild gets defeated, they go away anyway.And after a few fights, if the guild close to spawn keeps losing, they move on anayway, there's really no reason to park a blob at someone's spawn when there's other blobs capturing your objectives...

So i never saw some blob, or even roamers, camp at someone's spawn because it's just not worth the time.Firstly, there's 3 spots to leave, you're not going to block anyone by camping there, you'll just lose participation.

So no, there's no real spawncamping in GW2, just some guild fights here and there at spawn and maybe some unfortunate soul gets caught in the crossfire.

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Incorrect.Some servers love to bully others.I have whitnessed this behavior happening last and this week.Hours on end even.

They call it Spawn Camping or Bag Farming. The minute you step out of the save zone (determined is off) you are bombared by rangers, thiefs, from all 3 exits.They even tier up surrounding towers to have Watchtower on it, to seriously prevent anyone entering the map.

I myself simply see that happening and leave. I will never give such low life bullies the pleasure to kill constantly.

But saying it's not happening... open your eyes. Some servers are Notorious for doing it even.Not naming here though, not going into a dirt fight.

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@Veprovina.4876 said:

@"Linken.6345" said:If you have that much of a problem with it stay on your home borderland were you have this in my oppinion imagened advantage.EditIs this what the american servers are like?I have never been spawned camped on any of the boarderlands.

I've seen some "spawn camping" (i hesitate to call it that, it's not the same as you'll see), in EU servers.

But what it boils down to it is not that a blob is camping at spawn and killing anyone that dares get out, it's more like, an opposing guild comes and waits there for guild fights. And they don't just bomb everyone as soon as they're in range, they wait for everyone to stack, buff, etc., then fight a bit. If the guild closes to spawn is defeated, they wait for another fight, prep, stack, etc., and if the "spawncamping" (again, that's not spawncamping) guild gets defeated, they go away anyway.And after a few fights, if the guild close to spawn keeps losing, they move on anayway, there's really no reason to park a blob at someone's spawn when there's other blobs capturing your objectives...

So i never saw some blob, or even roamers, camp at someone's spawn because it's just not worth the time.Firstly, there's 3 spots to leave, you're not going to block anyone by camping there, you'll just lose participation.

So no, there's no real spawncamping in GW2, just some guild fights here and there at spawn and maybe some unfortunate soul gets caught in the crossfire.

You’ve obviously never been against Maguuma.

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@"Balthazzarr.1349" said:

@"Linken.6345" said:If you have that much of a problem with it stay on your home borderland were you have this in my oppinion imagened advantage.EditIs this what the american servers are like?I have never been spawned camped on any of the boarderlands.

I've seen some "spawn camping" (i hesitate to call it that, it's not the same as you'll see), in EU servers.

But what it boils down to it is not that a blob is camping at spawn and killing anyone that dares get out, it's more like, an opposing guild comes and waits there for guild fights. And they don't just bomb everyone as soon as they're in range, they wait for everyone to stack, buff, etc., then fight a bit. If the guild closes to spawn is defeated, they wait for another fight, prep, stack, etc., and if the "spawncamping" (again, that's not spawncamping) guild gets defeated, they go away anyway.And after a few fights, if the guild close to spawn keeps losing, they move on anayway, there's really no reason to park a blob at someone's spawn when there's other blobs capturing your objectives...

So i never saw some blob, or even roamers, camp at someone's spawn because it's just not worth the time.Firstly, there's 3 spots to leave, you're not going to block anyone by camping there, you'll just lose participation.

So no, there's no real spawncamping in GW2, just some guild fights here and there at spawn and maybe some unfortunate soul gets caught in the crossfire.

You’ve obviously never been against Maguuma.

Obviously... :smile:

Which one is that? I'm too lazy to check, is it NA?Cuase i've notice a LOT of difference between NA and EU servers in terms of community.From the posts and whatnot on this forum, NA servers tend to be a lot more toxic.

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@Veprovina.4876 said:

@"Balthazzarr.1349" said:

@"Linken.6345" said:If you have that much of a problem with it stay on your home borderland were you have this in my oppinion imagened advantage.EditIs this what the american servers are like?I have never been spawned camped on any of the boarderlands.

I've seen some "spawn camping" (i hesitate to call it that, it's not the same as you'll see), in EU servers.

But what it boils down to it is not that a blob is camping at spawn and killing anyone that dares get out, it's more like, an opposing guild comes and waits there for guild fights. And they don't just bomb everyone as soon as they're in range, they wait for everyone to stack, buff, etc., then fight a bit. If the guild closes to spawn is defeated, they wait for another fight, prep, stack, etc., and if the "spawncamping" (again, that's not spawncamping) guild gets defeated, they go away anyway.And after a few fights, if the guild close to spawn keeps losing, they move on anayway, there's really no reason to park a blob at someone's spawn when there's other blobs capturing your objectives...

So i never saw some blob, or even roamers, camp at someone's spawn because it's just not worth the time.Firstly, there's 3 spots to leave, you're not going to block anyone by camping there, you'll just lose participation.

So no, there's no real spawncamping in GW2, just some guild fights here and there at spawn and maybe some unfortunate soul gets caught in the crossfire.

You’ve obviously never been against Maguuma.

Obviously... :smile:

Which one is that? I'm too lazy to check, is it NA?Cuase i've notice a LOT of difference between NA and EU servers in terms of community.From the posts and whatnot on this forum, NA servers tend to be a lot more toxic.

yep it’s NA

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@"Balthazzarr.1349" said:

@"Balthazzarr.1349" said:

@"Linken.6345" said:If you have that much of a problem with it stay on your home borderland were you have this in my oppinion imagened advantage.EditIs this what the american servers are like?I have never been spawned camped on any of the boarderlands.

I've seen some "spawn camping" (i hesitate to call it that, it's not the same as you'll see), in EU servers.

But what it boils down to it is not that a blob is camping at spawn and killing anyone that dares get out, it's more like, an opposing guild comes and waits there for guild fights. And they don't just bomb everyone as soon as they're in range, they wait for everyone to stack, buff, etc., then fight a bit. If the guild closes to spawn is defeated, they wait for another fight, prep, stack, etc., and if the "spawncamping" (again, that's not spawncamping) guild gets defeated, they go away anyway.And after a few fights, if the guild close to spawn keeps losing, they move on anayway, there's really no reason to park a blob at someone's spawn when there's other blobs capturing your objectives...

So i never saw some blob, or even roamers, camp at someone's spawn because it's just not worth the time.Firstly, there's 3 spots to leave, you're not going to block anyone by camping there, you'll just lose participation.

So no, there's no real spawncamping in GW2, just some guild fights here and there at spawn and maybe some unfortunate soul gets caught in the crossfire.

You’ve obviously never been against Maguuma.

Obviously... :smile:

Which one is that? I'm too lazy to check, is it NA?Cuase i've notice a LOT of difference between NA and EU servers in terms of community.From the posts and whatnot on this forum, NA servers tend to be a lot more toxic.

yep it’s NA

Ah yes. There seems to be a rather large difference between those communities...

But still, even if a guild is spawncamping a site, there's 2 more exits and 3 more maps, plus, that guild is dumb for doing that because they're losing participation just to be jerks so the joke is on them i guess...

But yeah, i'm glad i'm on EU. :tongue:

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@Veprovina.4876 said:

@"Balthazzarr.1349" said:

@"Balthazzarr.1349" said:

@"Linken.6345" said:If you have that much of a problem with it stay on your home borderland were you have this in my oppinion imagened advantage.EditIs this what the american servers are like?I have never been spawned camped on any of the boarderlands.

I've seen some "spawn camping" (i hesitate to call it that, it's not the same as you'll see), in EU servers.

But what it boils down to it is not that a blob is camping at spawn and killing anyone that dares get out, it's more like, an opposing guild comes and waits there for guild fights. And they don't just bomb everyone as soon as they're in range, they wait for everyone to stack, buff, etc., then fight a bit. If the guild closes to spawn is defeated, they wait for another fight, prep, stack, etc., and if the "spawncamping" (again, that's not spawncamping) guild gets defeated, they go away anyway.And after a few fights, if the guild close to spawn keeps losing, they move on anayway, there's really no reason to park a blob at someone's spawn when there's other blobs capturing your objectives...

So i never saw some blob, or even roamers, camp at someone's spawn because it's just not worth the time.Firstly, there's 3 spots to leave, you're not going to block anyone by camping there, you'll just lose participation.

So no, there's no real spawncamping in GW2, just some guild fights here and there at spawn and maybe some unfortunate soul gets caught in the crossfire.

You’ve obviously never been against Maguuma.

Obviously... :smile:

Which one is that? I'm too lazy to check, is it NA?Cuase i've notice a LOT of difference between NA and EU servers in terms of community.From the posts and whatnot on this forum, NA servers tend to be a lot more toxic.

yep it’s NA

Ah yes. There seems to be a rather large difference between those communities...

But still, even if a guild is spawncamping a site, there's 2 more exits and 3 more maps, plus, that guild is dumb for doing that because they're losing participation just to be jerks so the joke is on them i guess...

But yeah, i'm glad i'm on EU. :tongue:

What dumber is that people stay there and get killed over and over then complain instead of just going out another way. lol

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@Tuna Bandit.3786 said:Incorrect.Some servers love to bully others.I have whitnessed this behavior happening last and this week.Hours on end even.

They call it Spawn Camping or Bag Farming. The minute you step out of the save zone (determined is off) you are bombared by rangers, thiefs, from all 3 exits.They even tier up surrounding towers to have Watchtower on it, to seriously prevent anyone entering the map.

I myself simply see that happening and leave. I will never give such low life bullies the pleasure to kill constantly.

But saying it's not happening... open your eyes. Some servers are Notorious for doing it even.Not naming here though, not going into a dirt fight.

I mean, I very occasionally see something like this, or 3-4 thieves chaining to gank people, or a little group of giggling rangers, or some guild waiting for a gvg near spawn tower, or whatever.

I don't think I've ever seen a coordinated, concerted map effort to block all three spawn exits simulateously, completely and relentlessly. I'm not saying you're exaggerating, I've just never seen it.

But I can tell you that I've had some really fun fights skirmishing with the enemy or joining a gvg near spawn, or busting a limited blockade.

You know, in all liklihood those players are probably just bored af, and are not facing an adequate enough challenge from your server; and that might just be a consequence of a shitty matchup, crap linking or the ubiquitous bandwagoning.

But, out of interest and not belligerence, what is your suggested solution if you feel unable or unwilling to create your own solution? What do you think Anet should do? How far back should the enemy be made to wait? How many more spawn exits should there be? What mechanic do you suggest to allow you to leave spawn unmolested? And how far should that extend?

Anyway, good luck.

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@"Balthazzarr.1349" said:

@"Balthazzarr.1349" said:

@"Balthazzarr.1349" said:

@"Linken.6345" said:If you have that much of a problem with it stay on your home borderland were you have this in my oppinion imagened advantage.EditIs this what the american servers are like?I have never been spawned camped on any of the boarderlands.

I've seen some "spawn camping" (i hesitate to call it that, it's not the same as you'll see), in EU servers.

But what it boils down to it is not that a blob is camping at spawn and killing anyone that dares get out, it's more like, an opposing guild comes and waits there for guild fights. And they don't just bomb everyone as soon as they're in range, they wait for everyone to stack, buff, etc., then fight a bit. If the guild closes to spawn is defeated, they wait for another fight, prep, stack, etc., and if the "spawncamping" (again, that's not spawncamping) guild gets defeated, they go away anyway.And after a few fights, if the guild close to spawn keeps losing, they move on anayway, there's really no reason to park a blob at someone's spawn when there's other blobs capturing your objectives...

So i never saw some blob, or even roamers, camp at someone's spawn because it's just not worth the time.Firstly, there's 3 spots to leave, you're not going to block anyone by camping there, you'll just lose participation.

So no, there's no real spawncamping in GW2, just some guild fights here and there at spawn and maybe some unfortunate soul gets caught in the crossfire.

You’ve obviously never been against Maguuma.

Obviously... :smile:

Which one is that? I'm too lazy to check, is it NA?Cuase i've notice a LOT of difference between NA and EU servers in terms of community.From the posts and whatnot on this forum, NA servers tend to be a lot more toxic.

yep it’s NA

Ah yes. There seems to be a rather large difference between those communities...

But still, even if a guild is spawncamping a site, there's 2 more exits and 3 more maps, plus, that guild is dumb for doing that because they're losing participation just to be jerks so the joke is on them i guess...

But yeah, i'm glad i'm on EU. :tongue:

What dumber is that people stay there and get killed over and over then complain instead of just going out another way. lol

True lol. I mean, you have multiple exits, just leave the blob on one, let them waste participation if they want, then go elswhere haha. :smiley:

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Not a bad design. Good design. You don't have to walk that much if the enemy is nice enough to come to your spawn. They probably will find it much more annoying - especially when trying to keep up the participation and doing their dailies. (If they fully own the whole map and can camp at your spawn and have to fight between themselves to get at least a bit damage done to some of your guys to get kill credit. :D)

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