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Is Burn Guardian OP right now, or are other condi classes just under-performing?


Wuffy.9732

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So I notice in fractals and raids that more and people tend to be running condi firebrand. This is more prevalent in fractals where condi FB is being requested more frequently for 100cm now too, and this may or may not discourage players who do not play condi FB, by discrimination. I normally main Necro(reaper/scourge) and Warrior(berserker), but even I decided to go and make a condi FB recently and tested out my dps in the Aerodome Training Area. And I gotta say, compared to both my reaper and berserker, condi fb just blows them away by up to 5k-10k more dps. With far easier rotations.

So this pegs the question, is the current state of condi FB OP? For other condi classes, they don't even come close. Condi FB burst damage is insane; 33k-40k burn damage!? and 30-35k sustain condi damage? Something doesn't seem right with that lol... I used these build/guides as a reference before I made a condi FB:


Now I'm not calling for nerfs either. If anet will acknowledge that other classes might just be under performing, then perhaps buffing other condi classes maybe the right thing to do. For instance, I've always been disappointed in how anet has handled scourge when it comes to condition damage. I mean sure, against multiple mobs, scourge performs outstandingly (because of epidemic usually). But against single target enemies, scourge under-performs really badly... And that's kind of disappointing for a "Necromancer" if you ask me...

What are yalls thoughts? Is condi FB too OP or should anet consider reworking other classes where condition damage is still an option.

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I'm not much of a pver but one aspect I would have to presume is that its favored due to being simple.If something is simple and effective then you can relatively trust any pug to be at a minimal but still effective enough level.

Anyone from gw1 can relate this concept back to ursanway. It was good because so long as they had that skill on their bar you knew they had a good skill bar ;)

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@Wuffy.9732 said:So this pegs the question, is the current state of condi FB OP? For other condi classes, they don't even come close.Looking at SC benchmarks, condi Tempest and Weaver are around 38k dps. So is condi Renegade. Condi Berserker is at 37k. The best condition FB build is at ~36.5, slightly above condi holo, and only 1k better than condi Sb. The build you've shown in the first movie starts with a 38k burst, but then starts going down to 32k, which is not really all that amazing.

So, no, in any sustained fight condi FB does not seem OP at all.

Hint: don't confuse shortterm burst values (which burn guard is indeed good at) with longterm sustained dps.

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@Astralporing.1957 said:

@"Wuffy.9732" said:So this pegs the question, is the current state of condi FB OP? For other condi classes, they don't even come close.Looking at SC benchmarks, condi Tempest and Weaver are around 38k dps. So is condi Renegade. Condi Berserker is at 37k. The best condition FB build is at ~36.5, slightly above condi holo, and only 1k better than condi Sb. The build you've shown in the first movie starts with a 38k burst, but then starts going down to 32k, which is not really all that amazing.

So, no, in any sustained fight condi FB does not seem OP at all.

Hint: don't confuse shortterm burst values (which burn guard is indeed good at) with longterm sustained dps.

Sadly, when people are being told that "condi FB" isbetter in PVE, people will start to play it. Other condi class might have better avg dps than FB but FB can lash out tons of burning stacks in a very short period of time.

So base on these condition, the only way to win dps race in fractal/raid is you play other class that have much higher burst damage than condi FB---OR you play FB too.

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Firebrand on any build:

  • free aegis as dps
  • tons of utility skills (one could argue more useful utility skills than any other class)
  • tomes with even more utility skills

Condi Firebrand specific:

  • highest burst condition with burning
  • insanely easy to get burning condition duration, which allows for more condition damage and power stacking
  • easy to medium rotation

The reason condi Firebrand is requested for 100CM is due to:

  • condi burning is very bursty compared to other condis
  • extra aegis and tome utility skills are useful
  • Renewed Focus allows one to stay middle and ignore her aoe while at the same time providing a reset for one of the main damage skills (F1)
  • insane amounts of easy to place range CC (Sanctuary does 750 defiance bar damage at range, 2 condi FB clear a Sorrow without every moving 1 step which again allows more damage uptime mid)
  • using scepter 3 on a dying sorrow resets F1, even more damage

What is not to like?

EDIT:and remember, the golem rotation does NOT include resets of F1 which are available on certain fights

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@"Rodrick.1942" said:Sadly, when people are being told that "condi FB" isbetter in PVE, people will start to play it. Other condi class might have better avg dps than FB but FB can lash out tons of burning stacks in a very short period of time.

So base on these condition, the only way to win dps race in fractal/raid is you play other class that have much higher burst damage than condi FB---OR you play FB too.Fractals, maybe, because encounters there are very short. Raids on the other hand, with their much longer fights put far more emphasis on sustained dps.

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Condi Firebrand only performs great in half of the fractals or raids.What makes it Op is the bursty nature of the burn condition by itself. Make a burn condi tempest or weaver and will do the same.I think is the right balance, high burty dps at the cost of low HP pool and being in melee range. I'm talking about axe, I dont consider scepter in a full burn build.

In addition, only works well against stationary bosses, others that move or teleport a lot are harder to make them eat all the burns.

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I say it simple 3 cFBs + HFB + Alarcrene in 100cm is meta and yes there are other options tooBut:

  • They die easier because less HP and no free aegis which is when you have one shoot mechanic with certain instabilities this makes the run much smoother
  • Their rota is often much more complex like condi weaver hust
  • Their dps is often not on pair what cFB can or the players can't do their rota as good as needed for this
  • Some builds don't offer enough cc at all like scourge and condi weaver(only in air). Not enough cc means sure wipe in the sorrow phase.

To add what Cyninja.2954 said the pros:

  • We are kinda forced to run cFB at least one because of the nerf of the cc utilities there are condi builds which can do good cc but nothing which comes on this level.
  • The reason to pick condi builds is they tick even when the boss moves away this combined with the possibility to burst your dmg out is what makes the build strong

Where is it weak?

  • On a stationary boss with big hit box means 98cm(Nightmare) Molten Boss.This is because power DPS build doing more dmg on big hitboxes because some skills hit them multiply times also the advantage with the ticking condution while the boss is moving falls away. Yes basically what frareanselm.1925 said is nonsense.

Where is it strong?

  • Especially good where the boss moves around and has a small hitboxes meaning :Twillight Oasis,Mai Trin, Deep Stone , Snow Blind , 99cm , 100 cm

The point is for the rest it isn't necessary strong but it isn't bad either.

Personally:When this with cFB started when the 100 cm was new our premade group/guild though that cFb will get a nerf relatively quickly because of it absurd dmg in compare to other build especially power and be good on so many other fractals. As a complete premade group this we don't have problems but we can't always run as premades when that happens BS can become a problem because for random groups it has fallen kind out of meta because it is random if you have one or not. I also saw how burn guards overperform in other modes too. It seem guard became what ele was during HoT

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@"Wuffy.9732" said:So I notice in fractals and raids that more and people tend to be running condi firebrand. This is more prevalent in fractals where condi FB is being requested more frequently for 100cm now too, and this may or may not discourage players who do not play condi FB, by discrimination. I normally main Necro(reaper/scourge) and Warrior(berserker), but even I decided to go and make a condi FB recently and tested out my dps in the Aerodome Training Area. And I gotta say, compared to both my reaper and berserker, condi fb just blows them away by up to 5k-10k more dps. With far easier rotations.

So this pegs the question, is the current state of condi FB OP? For other condi classes, they don't even come close. Condi FB burst damage is insane; 33k-40k burn damage!? and 30-35k sustain condi damage? Something doesn't seem right with that lol... I used these build/guides as a reference before I made a condi FB:

Now I'm not calling for nerfs either. If anet will acknowledge that other classes might just be under performing, then perhaps buffing other condi classes maybe the right thing to do. For instance, I've always been disappointed in how anet has handled scourge when it comes to condition damage. I mean sure, against multiple mobs, scourge performs outstandingly (because of epidemic usually). But against single target enemies, scourge under-performs really badly... And that's kind of disappointing for a "Necromancer" if you ask me...

What are yalls thoughts? Is condi FB too OP or should anet consider reworking other classes where condition damage is still an option.

Fractals is all about guardians

They are the meta healersOne of the top condi dps classesOne of the top power dps

They been struggling in fitting in the alac spot so it’s only fair for them to get that boon buff soon or else their new elite spec will be fully dedicated to be alac

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If you're talking about fractals ultimately it comes down to "free" aegis and the CC of sanctuary for 100. The low ramp time of 70+% burning (as opposed to running 50% burning and 20% bleeding as on some other condi classes) along with power damage means it functions similar to a power build (see power chrono with shatters) when things don't die in less than a few seconds. This also means higher damage within an "exposed" window.

Sustained damage such as in a raid or strike isn't amazing otherwise without adds because you don't get F1 resets. The only thing that's a real outlier is the mantra of solace skill really.

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Guardian is in a decent spot but it's not doing better than other professions. If you have a look at snowcrows the benchmark is currently dominated by mesmers with 42k dps. Considering Anet is not going to nerf the current Meta builds I would rather buff those builds who are not in the Meta with a balance patch before EoD is released so the staff can focus on balancing the new elite specialisations.

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@Touchme.1097 said:Guardian is in a decent spot but it's not doing better than other professions. If you have a look at snowcrows the benchmark is currently dominated by mesmers with 42k dps. Considering Anet is not going to nerf the current Meta builds I would rather buff those builds who are not in the Meta with a balance patch before EoD is released so the staff can focus on balancing the new elite specialisations.

It depend if we talk about raids or fractals , Raids have mostly bosses with big hitboxes in fractal it is the other way around . We basically we said cFB is meta in cm fractal runs without serious competition if you look at your average player.

Actually I didn't heard before that there is a 42k Chrono build this is more a proof that Arena.NET holding their hands in the air atm because they made their policy before that 40k is the limit and every build above it gets the hammer and yes there are also build which under perform like Mirage ,Spellbreaker, Scrapper(and core), Scourge and ELe in PvE

On the healing side Revenants Ventri missing 10 people condi cleans, Chrono can be played is half a healer but not so really.

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@Lord of the Fire.6870 said:

@Touchme.1097 said:Guardian is in a decent spot but it's not doing better than other professions. If you have a look at snowcrows the benchmark is currently dominated by mesmers with 42k dps. Considering Anet is not going to nerf the current Meta builds I would rather buff those builds who are not in the Meta with a balance patch before EoD is released so the staff can focus on balancing the new elite specialisations.

It depend if we talk about raids or fractals , Raids have mostly bosses with big hitboxes in fractal it is the other way around . We basically we said cFB is meta in cm fractal runs without serious competition if you look at your average player.

Actually I didn't heard before that there is a 42k Chrono build this is more a proof that Arena.NET holding their hands in the air atm because they made their policy before that 40k is the limit and every build above it gets the hammer and yes there are also build which under perform like
Mirage
,Spellbreaker, Scrapper(and core), Scourge and ELe in PvE

On the healing side Revenants Ventri missing 10 people condi cleans, Chrono can be played is half a healer but not so really.

Mirage can reach like 45k if you factor in confusion. Ele is meta in fractals.

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@Lord of the Fire.6870 said:

@"Touchme.1097" said:Guardian is in a decent spot but it's not doing better than other professions. If you have a look at snowcrows the benchmark is currently dominated by mesmers with 42k dps. Considering Anet is not going to nerf the current Meta builds I would rather buff those builds who are not in the Meta with a balance patch before EoD is released so the staff can focus on balancing the new elite specialisations.

It depend if we talk about raids or fractals , Raids have mostly bosses with big hitboxes in fractal it is the other way around . We basically we said cFB is meta in cm fractal runs without serious competition if you look at your average player.

Actually I didn't heard before that there is a 42k Chrono build this is more a proof that Arena.NET holding their hands in the air atm because they made their policy before that 40k is the limit and every build above it gets the hammer and yes there are also build which under perform like Mirage ,Spellbreaker, Scrapper(and core), Scourge and ELe in PvE

On the healing side Revenants Ventri missing 10 people condi cleans, Chrono can be played is half a healer but not so really.

You're not going to get that chrono benchmark realistically especially in fractals because slow uptime will be atrocious and No Pain No Gain / Vengeance eats into your 15% Vicious Expression damage bonus, so at best you're looking more along the lines of 35K due to Danger Time (10% damage , 15% crit chance vs slowed). On top of that when you shatter it takes time for the clone to pop. Frankly wouldn't care if Danger Time was deleted, because the biggest benefactors are stacked squads with multiple chronos.

In addition, scrapper really isn't as bad as you make it out to be , it's around 33K. The reason why people don't run it is holo is even more theoretical DPS.https://lucky-noobs.com/builds/scrapper-power

The same goes for spellbreaker (~29K). https://lucky-noobs.com/builds/power-spellbreaker

Mirage only performs well when confusion ticks often.

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condi firebrand has a very short avg condi duration (~6s) and both a high and fast condi reapplication rate (to balance out), allowing it to reap all the advantages of being condi while avoiding a good chunk of the disadvantages of supposedly dealing dmg ‘over time’

compare this to other condi specs which hover around 8-20s durations, ofc they wont compare, especially since situations that allow condis to tick never really last longer than 5s, and then they have to reapply and re-ramp (which condi firebrand excels in, yay?)

burning is a factor but its not the same when one is 5 stacks for 3s (6s with 100% dura) applied in 1s vs 3 stacks for 5s (10s) (and applied over 3s in some instances)

special mention to f1 tome skill #5, basically 15 stacks of burning for the same shortish duration (~7s) at a press of a button, meanwhile other specs have skills that do 10k dmg in 27s lol

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Because it's the ultimate PUG class for fractals. High boon independence + not as reliant on breakbar timing + risk free ashes precast + don't get cucked if your rev is slow at stripping prot. It actually gets better the worse your team is, and given the skill level of the vast majority of players, this naturally means that cFB is exceptionally strong. Still, if you have an actually decent fractal group, running cFB is a dick move(except on 100cm). Past a certain skill level cFB as a fractal DPS is objectively bad due to inherent greediness(no unique offensive support + mediocre cc without sacrificing damage) and will fall behind in encounters where enough people know how to properly burst.

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Keep in mind this the Lucky noobs video is solo. This is no way you're going to get all the boons/class buffs realistically alone. So if we're talking team content, you're going to get more DPS from ashes of the just, regardless. That video is nothing more then this is how you need to do your rotation and where you should be to get max DPS. Furthermore Condi Firebrand really shines when two criteria are met, a boss that is largely immobile or huge, and ones that can refresh your tome skills on kill. There are better more consistent builds out there when those criteria aren't met.

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FOR BURN GUARD IN FRACTALS:

Mist Offensive Potion applies 2 different bonuses to condi dmg (see notes section). One is the obvious +3% outgoing dmg per stack; the other is a +3% increase per stack to the condi dmg stat (applied to all sources besides might stacks and stat% conversions) which I have tested and still exists.

This means that condi builds have a naturally higher virtual (fractal) bench, including burn guard. With condi dmg being naturally bad in fractals, this possibly unintentional bonus served more to level the playing field between power and condi (especially in absurdly long fights where decent condi dps would ‘eventually’ win).

Given the higher virtual benchmarks, it technically means burn guard and higher condi specs sit up there with rifle DE and pchrono (both of which are impractical for fracs anyway). But what makes burn guard special is what I pointed out in my other comment - it is the least condi-like of condi specs (with enough duration to excel on 100cm) being completely unfazed by phases/initial burst which, along with this additional bonus, makes it potentially the best (#1) dps in unless ab/using full power setups with competent players (so #1 at least with pugs).

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Short version, Condition Firebrand and even Guardian in general isn't in a very good spot at the moment in PvE. The only reason people call it 'strong', is because the class is very versatile, which's totally different from being broken.

  • Radiance DH is okay, but it's not a meta DPS in any gamemode currently, it's actually one of the worst classes in raids and sub-meta in fractals
  • Virtues DH is fine but depends a lot of the group and boss, making it very hard to play correctly in pug
  • Condition FB is fine, its bench is only slightly below top-tier condition classes for raids. For fractals, it's one of the best condition classes due to the fast ramp-up from burning. Mainly used in 100 CM for its utilities, does okay on the rest but not better than meta classes correctly played.
  • Quick FB is currently inferior to StM chronos in many ways in raids, it's only used in fractals since chrono won't benefit from good slow uptimes
  • Heal FB is inferior to Heal Renegade in almost any situation in both Raids and Fractals, given that Quick FB does more DPS than normal Alac while being given the possibility to retain all of its utilities. Better going with Heal Ren in almost any situation.

TL;DR : The first strenght of Guardian is to be very versatile, i.e it does everything okay. The second one is that the rotations are not really complicated to execute, although there are many variations and reaching benchmark is still very hard in my opinion. Qfb/DH with FMW is still meta in high-end fractals, and Virtues DH for some raid records, but that's about it. There's no way Condition FB can be considered as OP.

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