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unhappy mac player - [Merged]


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Arenanet should seriously just port GW2 to Stadia. Heck, it would take next to nothing as it is already PC based, and then all the mac players can hop right back on without missing a beat--plus they don't have to wait to download updates anymore and can even play on their iPad.

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@Halandir.3609 said:Sure it sucks but don't blame Anet - This was the result of an Apple decision!Streaming might do it but that could be a budget problem - Emulation (virtualbox/wine) just won't cut it for laptop mac's.Nice of Anet to offer refunds when it was Apple that screwed their users.Virtualization has come a long way. Parallels desktop has DirectX 9 and DirectX 11 support.

Even on Linux you can play GW2 as fast as Windows more or less with dxvk.

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@"Danikat.8537" said:I'm not surprised to see them say that. Elder Scrolls Online announced much the same back in November, although they said they will keep supporting old Macs for a while if there's enough users (maybe they have more Mac players?)

Not sure how the Mac playerbase is, but ZOS actually put in the effort to make a MoltenVK client for macOS so ESO actually runs quite well on the platform, and they are now stopping because they don't want to get it working on Apple Silicon. GW2's Mac client never ran well and is just a slapped together WINE wrapper, so I personally wasn't surprised to hear ArenaNet will discontinue it.

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@nykur.2154 said:

@"Danikat.8537" said:I'm not surprised to see them say that.
, although they said they will keep supporting old Macs for a while if there's enough users (maybe they have more Mac players?)

Not sure how the Mac playerbase is, but ZOS actually put in the effort to make a MoltenVK client for macOS so ESO actually runs quite well on the platform, and they are now stopping because they don't want to get it working on Apple Silicon. GW2's Mac client never ran well and is just a slapped together WINE wrapper, so I personally wasn't surprised to hear ArenaNet will discontinue it.

Oi. Do not disparage slapping together the WINE wrapper. Valve, Crossover, Collabora, linux community has turn windows API into a portable library. The wrapper is practically native in both performance and feature set. Linux players probably have a better GW2 experience than many Windows players.

Arenanet choosed a crappy WINE fork called Cider maintained by Nvidia (formally Transgaming). Arenanet loses the years and years of Q/A Crossover devoted into WINE.

Mac Port suffers from two issues: Crappy Wine Fork and Apple under platform investment.

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Will Bootcamp allow MAC users to continue playing the game using the Windows client or not?Looking at GeForce Now I see no reason to buy a new computer anymore, it's ridiculous how gaming companies have kept using low rendering technology for years without investing money into more profitable and better quality alternatives, easy money I suppose...

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So here's the thing, Apple's M-Series silicon is insanely good, GW2 performs decently under TWO layers of emulation: Rosetta2+Anet's, and this is the WORST silicon Apple is ever going to make for Macs.

There's 2 posibilites: 1) Apple drops support for OGL in a macOS update or 2) Apple drops support for OGL in newer M-Series silicon.For (1), i understand, the game hasn't been updated DX9 for windows, i dont expect it to be updated to Metal2 for the much smaller player base on Mac, i get it, but why not wait for the WWDC when it happens and announce it then? It's not like one and a half months is a long time; there's like 3-4 months between macOS dev beta and public release.

For (2) is something similar; if it's dropped on the new architectures, i get it, you want consistency and if it doesnt work on one Mac, it shouldnt work in any bc it could confuse costumers, fine; but we don't know that and same as the previous option, it can be checked before release and communicate it when it happens.

As far as i know, and apologies if im wildly oversimplifying, Anet just uses a wine wrapper for the Mac client, right? So it should be too difficult to just let continue to be for the time being since updates don't requiere a port to macOS. Or maybe they could delete the .dmg installer from the server and maybe block base game files from being downloaded from the Mac client and only allow updates to already-installed macs that are proven to work already? - this is probably too much hassle for the ROI it would produce, but still. :(

Or is it that maybe i missed the point? Maybe it's bc of those OGL issues they mention?

This is my favourite game of all time and now i wont be able to play it if it becomes a subscription-based game if i have to rent a computer just for it. :/

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They're dropping it because Apple is making it impossible to code cross platform for developers. They're moving to proprietary chips and an entirely different architecture that current code doesn't work on well, and in the future might not even work, especially because Apple is not known for supporting their older systems. And they're not about to code a new client from scratch just to accomodate Apple's stuff. Sure it kinda still works now, but one new Apple chip later andthe support for the current OS is gone. Probably a few other reasons but, that's the "Apple way".

It's the same why most developers don't code their games for Linux. First, there's like, no market share for them, Apple maybe, but not gaming related so not much market there. And second, there's a lot of effort involved into coding, and maintaining 2-3 different clients. It's not like this is a single player game where you code once, publish and maybe update a few times before you forget about it, the updates need to be constant. And since Apple is dead set on making developer's lives harder with the decision they made - that means double the work for every update of GW2. Linux at least is bridging the gap between Windows and Linux. Apple is widening it.

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They're dropping it because Apple is making it impossible to code cross platform for developers.I thought Universal2 was there to make it easier.They're moving to proprietary chips and an entirely different architecture that current code doesn't work on well,The game currently runs fine under Rosetta2Apple is not known for supporting their older systemsLooks at 2013 Macs on macOS 11.1And they're not about to code a new client from scratch just to accomodate Apple's stuffYeah, i understand that, i mentioned it in the post. Regardless, isnt it a wine wrapper anyway? And i'm not asking for them to build a new client, im asking for them to keep using it until option (1) or (2) happen.Sure it kinda still works now, but one new Apple chip later andthe support for the current OS is gone.The option (1) of what could happen, yes, but why not maintain it until then?Apple is dead set on making developer's lives harder with the decision they madeI mean, not really? They've been building up Swift for like half a decade and it's great for coding. Open source, too. And Catalyst helps being multiplatform.that means double the work for every update of GW2Again, thought it was a wine wrapper so it shouldnt require much maintenance if any at all >.< (please correct me if im wrong)Linux at least is bridging the gap between Windows and Linux. Apple is widening it.M$ has been trying for years to build ARM machines and native ARM windows. Linux has a huge technological investment in ARM as well. But this is besides the point.

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@"Veprovina.4876" said:They're dropping it because Apple is making it impossible to code cross platform for developers. They're moving to proprietary chips and an entirely different architecture that current code doesn't work on well, and in the future might not even work, especially because Apple is not known for supporting their older systems. And they're not about to code a new client from scratch just to accomodate Apple's stuff. Sure it kinda still works now, but one new Apple chip later andthe support for the current OS is gone. Probably a few other reasons but, that's the "Apple way".

It's the same why most developers don't code their games for Linux. First, there's like, no market share for them, Apple maybe, but not gaming related so not much market there. And second, there's a lot of effort involved into coding, and maintaining 2-3 different clients. It's not like this is a single player game where you code once, publish and maybe update a few times before you forget about it, the updates need to be constant. And since Apple is dead set on making developer's lives harder with the decision they made - that means double the work for every update of GW2. Linux at least is bridging the gap between Windows and Linux. Apple is widening it.

Your assumptions are full of flaws and one in particular is just a myth: "> It's the same why most developers don't code their games for Linux. First, there's like, no market share for them". The current market on apple devices is currently growing and a lot of people use Linux, but hey...There are always people like you who don't know and fuel the stereotype where only Windows deserve the whole gaming market cake. You are not considering gaming companies just don't want to invest in improving the quality of their products anymore. There are better alternatives than OpenGL, go and read them.

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@Vangalter.5210 said:M$ has been trying for years to build ARM machines and native ARM windows. Linux has a huge technological investment in ARM as well. But this is besides the point.And today M1 macbooks run Windows 10 on arm emulated twice as fast as MS run Windows 10 on arm native, lol. I dont quite understand the mac announcement either since I thought they could just run the emulator. But I dont have an M1 so dont know how that works with OpenGL. If Apple isnt allowing macs to run it, well thats the end of that.

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I mean, MaCs are nothing more than overpriced status symbols. They were never meant for gaming, and Apple's 'exclusivity ' money-grab policy is going to get worse and worse, and so will the ability of devs to build for it. TBH, I was surprised when anet actually introduced GW2 on MaC. All good things come to an end..

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I just use mac for uni work, apart from that I know it's shit at everything else, windows all the way. Anyway pretty sure you can buy cheap setups to run GW2 that exceeds the current macs. Saying that I play GW2 casually but I would be extremely sad if I couldn't play it anymore, all the friends mac users have made and their progressions, mac is fucking shit.

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@Touchme.1097 said:Will Bootcamp allow MAC users to continue playing the game using the Windows client or not?Looking at GeForce Now I see no reason to buy a new computer anymore, it's ridiculous how gaming companies have kept using low rendering technology for years without investing money into more profitable and better quality alternatives, easy money I suppose...

Anet doesn't have Blizzard money so calm down. It's crap Apple has done this, don't blame anet.

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I just want to point out that (a) ANet has apparently (if memory serves) laid off a number of staff lately, and (b) it was clear since at least 2018 that OpenGL is not going to be, or remain, a viable option for macOS X (then Mac OS X) for a "longer amount of time". It still works, but support might be discontinued with Big Sur (in autumn) or next year.However, that does not mean that everybody with a Mac will update, or will be able to update, to the latest OS that will then no longer provide OpenGL support (e.g., your Mac might be too old to allow installation of the new OS, you don't want to be an early adopter, you have other software that prevents an early (or any) update, ...).Simply giving up on the platform with little advance warning is making me feel a mix of emotions, none of which are "happy".

However, it's also quite possible that due to (a) above, they simply lack the manpower to continue working on the Windows-only version and expansions, while also at least maintaining the Mac platform. I also notice that the posting said that For the time being, Mac users can still play Guild Wars 2 using the Nvidia GeForce Now service while streaming over the Internet. (Apart from the fact that this costs money, and I am not sure how well it will work depending on your Internet connection, the for the time being means "this will probably end at any point in time, perhaps soon, and perhaps with little advance warning".

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@Touchme.1097 said:

@"Veprovina.4876" said:They're dropping it because Apple is making it impossible to code cross platform for developers. They're moving to proprietary chips and an entirely different architecture that current code doesn't work on well, and in the future might not even work, especially because Apple is not known for supporting their older systems. And they're not about to code a new client from scratch just to accomodate Apple's stuff. Sure it kinda still works now, but one new Apple chip later andthe support for the current OS is gone. Probably a few other reasons but, that's the "Apple way".

It's the same why most developers don't code their games for Linux. First, there's like, no market share for them, Apple maybe, but not gaming related so not much market there. And second, there's a lot of effort involved into coding, and maintaining 2-3 different clients. It's not like this is a single player game where you code once, publish and maybe update a few times before you forget about it, the updates need to be constant. And since Apple is dead set on making developer's lives harder with the decision they made - that means double the work for every update of GW2. Linux at least is bridging the gap between Windows and Linux. Apple is widening it.

Your assumptions are full of flaws and one in particular is just a myth: "> It's the same why most developers don't code their games for Linux. First, there's like, no market share for them". The current market on apple devices is currently growing and a lot of people use Linux, but hey...There are always people like you who don't know and fuel the stereotype where only Windows
deserve
the whole gaming market cake. You are not considering gaming companies just don't want to invest in improving the quality of their products anymore. There are better alternatives than OpenGL, go and read them.

It's not really a myth though. I know the share is growing and Linux has made some amazing advancements in gaming being available there. But the fact is still that most AAA or even AA developers don't want to waste their resources on it. If they wanted, we'd have more native linux games. As it is, only a few of them bother, and linux gaming is dominated by indie titles.

And i'm not talking about wine or its wrappers, that's still "basically windows". Which i persume Guild Wars 2 was anyway. Or did it have a native MAC client? If it was a wine thing, then you have your proof right there. Developers don't want to code everything from scratch just to accomodate apple's stuff when windows is more widespread OS in gaming circles anyway.

Also, i don't know what stereotype i'm fueling, the fact is that there's not many AAA titles, especially MMOs for Linux. I didn't say linux has no games, i said it has a lower share than windows and that's just a fact.

https://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey/Steam-Hardware-Software-Survey-Welcome-to-Steam

I know steam stats are only for steam, but as it's the most widespread platfrom for games, and very focused on linux you can see how much each OS is doing realistically. Windows is still on top. WAY on top!

Windows 91.35%MacOS 2.82%Linux 0.78%

Where's the myth? Those are facts!

So, you said that gaming companies don't want to invest in improving the quality of their products. First of all, that has noting to do with what i said, quality is not tied in any way to the OS platform coding. Second of all, if you did mean that for OS', then the above numbers should tell you why they don't. Because it doesn't make sense.You're doubling the maintenance cost for (let's be generous) 5% or whatever MacOS users - for each update. It's a wonder Mac support lasted this long.

Then there's the matter of Apple slowly changing their chip architecture. The new M1 chip still supports legacy stuff, but Apple made it clear that they're moving away from the "PC" type processor. That might be an assumption, but it's one that raises concerns for the developers of GW2, and upon that they decided it's not worth it anymore.

And lastly, don't put words in my mouth. I bolded the part in your text. I never said that someone "deserves" more cake. It's just how it currently is. If i could do all the stuff i need + game on Linux i would switch immediately, but NONE of what i need for work, and most my games are not available there so i use Windows. That's just the reality.

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I don't really mind that they drop mac support (not that they had a good mac support anyway, I needed it last year and on the one-each-two-days replies I managed to get I even was told to run a windows app to check the performance of my computer, which was kind of wtf?), but at least I wish they would let us continue running the old client and playing with old computers. Now I have the feeling I have only one month to either manage how to install a windows emulator of find another equally complicated solution.

Or stop playing my favourite game ever. Which, by the way, was my favourite because I COULD play it on my mac.

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@"Vangalter.5210" said:

They're dropping it because Apple is making it impossible to code cross platform for developers.I thought Universal2 was there to make it easier.They're moving to proprietary chips and an entirely different architecture that current code doesn't work on well,The game currently runs fine under Rosetta2Apple is not known for supporting their older systems
Looks at 2013 Macs on macOS 11.1
And they're not about to code a new client from scratch just to accomodate Apple's stuffYeah, i understand that, i mentioned it in the post. Regardless, isnt it a wine wrapper anyway? And i'm not asking for them to build a new client, im asking for them to keep using it until option (1) or (2) happen.Sure it kinda still works now, but one new Apple chip later andthe support for the current OS is gone.The option (1) of what could happen, yes, but why not maintain it until then?Apple is dead set on making developer's lives harder with the decision they madeI mean, not really? They've been building up Swift for like half a decade and it's great for coding. Open source, too. And Catalyst helps being multiplatform.that means double the work for every update of GW2Again, thought it was a wine wrapper so it shouldnt require much maintenance if any at all >.< (please correct me if im wrong)Linux at least is bridging the gap between Windows and Linux. Apple is widening it.M$ has been trying for years to build ARM machines and native ARM windows. Linux has a huge technological investment in ARM as well. But this is besides the point.

Oops sorry, didn't notice the post.

Look, just look at my previous post and you'll see the reason.The game might currently run fine and all, but the fact is, it's a wonder support lasted for as long as it did.Anet, from what i read (bits and pieces), is no longer staffed like they used to be. With covid and all the crap that's happening right now i can't imagine they would be.

Whatever the new chip is, Universal2, etc., the fact still remains that they're doubling the work basically for a very small userbase.

Case in point: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/119332/m1-apple-silicon-client-where-is-it#latest

Did Guild wars really work on M1? Cause from reading the comments, it didn't, and Apple made it clear they're moving to that type of chip going forward...That means coding from scratch for Anet... And if that's the case, i don't see how Universal2 or whatever made it easier.GW2 might run fine now, but even Anet said in their post (i think), that in the future it's probably not going to work, in future OS updates.

Wine is fiddly. Just look at Linux for that. Every new update to linux can and will mess up wine. Every linux distro, every distro version, all need slightly different wine settings, wine versions, etc. to make something work. That all has been managed by Anet so far, and it's still a lot of work for "just a wine wrapper". Anyone who messed with wine on Linux will tell you it's not that simple. It's not just the same client but with wine slapped on it and it "just works". There's tons of other stuff that needs doing for something to reliably work with wine. And every new update requires that process all over again.

Bottom line is - it's probably too much work for a company that has less staff than it used to, and they're dropping support so they can focus on what needs fixing in game.And there's a LOT that needs fixing. Performance for instance. It runs laughably bad on laughably overpowered hardware for such an old game.

I mean, don't get me wrong, i'd love for everyone to have everything available for every platform, but that's just not viable.

Besides, while Anet is dropping support for GW2, that doesn't mean people can't pick it up and make the windows client work on a Mac with Wine... That's what pepople do on Linux so... Unless the new M1 chip won't allow it. Wine is a windows wrapper after all, and windows is coded for the style of chips that are in PCs now, that architecture. M1 chip is very much different from that so it's really a gamble if it'll work and when. Nonetheless, i'm sure someone will figure out a way soon enough, and Mac users will be able to play GW2 on Macs again, just not in an "official" capacity.

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@"Vangalter.5210" said:Apple's M-Series silicon is insanely good

kek, ok.

I thought Universal2 was there to make it easier.

  1. create a problem
  2. create a "solution" by still adding steps to the process, which normally were not needed
  3. "what do you mean? They made it easier!"

I mean, not really? They've been building up Swift for like half a decade and it's great for coding. Open source, too. And Catalyst helps being multiplatform.

See? Again. And then you somehow convinced yourself this is normal to the point you still think... "Harder for devs? ...not really?" . Yes, really.

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