[FEEDBACKS] ArenaNet has given up on MAC OS customers

[Touchme.1097]

Dear ArenaNet,I can't describe you how disappointed I feel about your decision to stop supporting the MAC client, I have been one of your most supporting MAC customers since September 2020 and now the news about your decision to drop support on the MAC client has taken me unprepared and hugely disappointed.I expect game developers in the future to stop using OpenGL as their only jack of all trades rendering SDK and be more flexible exploring other alternatives more compatible with the different platforms existing today.Even Windows is planning to get rid of OpenGL, so I don't know how you will survive chasing a dead horse, I think you should have considered Metal or other alternatives instead of using OpenGL for MAC OSX, this would have improved the game client performance and continue your support for MAC users. Other companies did it, so I don't understand why you don't. It's easy to stick with OpenGL and be a game developer working for a multimillion company, it's harder to be more knowledgeable with other rendering alternatives, for this reason I define your discontinued support to MAC users a business failure.Please consider taking feedback about the product you sell as well, there are a lot of feedbacks on Reddit on how terribly optimised your game is and you should really start to work on some serious improvements because it's not possible to play GW2 on max settings without being affected by lag and poor rendering, not even a reasonably expensive computer could do it and GW2 is meant to be using a very old engine.

I will add a few links to enrich my feedback with useful information about OpenGL alternatives, in case your (well paid) developers didn't already:The end of OpenGL, Vulkan: https://gamefromscratch.com/cross-platform-opengl-alternatives/#:~:text=Use%20Vulkan%20%2B%20MoltenVK&text=Vulkan%20is%20a%20lower%20level,graphical%20functionality%20in%20modern%20GPUs.

Metal (API): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metal_(API)

I have spent a lot of money in GW2 since I started playing the game and I honestly feel betrayed by your decision to drop MAC entirely.I have a question for you, will the last things I have unlocked with gems be locked back if I asked for a refund or will they stay unlocked (for example all the living world content bought with gems)?

Regards

Touchme

[Sansar.1302]

in windows guild wars use dx9 NOT OpenGL

[Touchme.1097]

@"Sansar.1302" said:in windows guild wars use dx9 NOT OpenGL

You are just reinforcing my argument where I have claimed that even Windows is dumping OpenGL.From google search: Does Windows 10 have OpenGL? "Pretty much any OpenGL error is caused by a lack of optimization of drivers for Windows 10. This means that if you run your favorite games smoothly in previous versions of Windows, you might experience some graphic card issues in Windows 10."

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

@Touchme.1097 said:

@"Sansar.1302" said:in windows guild wars use dx9 NOT OpenGL

You are just reinforcing my argument where I have claimed that even Windows is dumping OpenGL.From google search: Does Windows 10 have OpenGL? "Pretty much any OpenGL error is caused by a lack of optimization of drivers for Windows 10. This means that if you run your favorite games smoothly in previous versions of Windows, you might experience some graphic card issues in Windows 10."

OpenGL isn't disappearing any time soon as its the standard API for CAD and rendering software, and that's unlikely to change.

Any talk about removing it from Windows is a myth; Apple is doing it because their machines are never used in that capacity, they're purely user-based platforms and they want to duplicate more and more the design of the iPhone and iPad on the desktop Mac PC.

It used to be the opposite; in the '90s Mac was the professional system to have in companies. But over time Apple pretty much gave up on that all together and started targetting users, supplanting Windows in many parts of the home market (especially mobile),, but in doing so gave up the professional market, as a result nearly all corporate environments use Windows or Linux these days on workstations and render farms, which are used for a multitude of tasks even as complex as producing entire movies.

Removing OpenGL would require massive rewrites to well-established (some of them for nearly 30 years) franchises that cost literally thousands of dollars per license, and would be a financial disaster.

Also, expecting a game company to rewrite their entire backend on the whim of a third party is silly.

[VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.]

so it is anet's fault that APPLE gave up on an industry standard (opengl) and decided to introduce a homebrewn cpu (to make more money and don't have to share with others)? Get a grib on reality.

Apple sells overprized low quality junk. If you bought it, ask yourself about the wisdom of your decision.

[sunrun.4521]

@Hannelore.8153 said:It used to be the opposite; in the '90s Mac was the professional system to have in companies. But over time Apple pretty much gave up on that all together and started targetting users, supplanting Windows in many parts of the home market (especially mobile),, but in doing so gave up the professional market

Not sure which professionals you're talking about, but all the professionals I know use Macs at work. Apple is huge in the professional market. Web programmers, Android and iPhone game and app developers, graphics designers, video editors, sound engineers, photographers... all use Macs at their workplaces. And every day I see about a 3:2 split of Mac/PC laptops for people in the services industries like insurance, accounting, etc.

All the major game engines already support Metal, too, and have for years, which is why a huge number of Steam games run on Mac as well now (including the new M1 Macs via Rosetta translation - often better than they did on Intel Macs).

It's just that ArenaNet uses an outdated custom engine - even on Windows, where they can't even move it past DX9.

[Ashantara.8731]

@Touchme.1097 said:I can't describe you how disappointed I feel about your decision to stop supporting the MAC client

Have you read the annoucement carefully? It's not ANet's fault.

P.S. Macs were never meant for gaming anyway, and Apple has decided to make this very clear with their latest decisions. Go blame them, not the game developers, especially when it's not a big budget studio.

@sunrun.4521 said:Not sure which professionals you're talking about, but all the professionals I know use Macs at work. Apple is huge in the professional market. Web programmers, Android and iPhone game and app developers, graphics designers, video editors, sound engineers, photographers... all use Macs at their workplaces.

And this is going to change for some departments now.

P.S. I don't know a single web programmer or Android app developer who uses a Mac. It's only for graphics design, photography and the like (and you can do the same work just as well on a PC).

[Linken.6345]

5 months and you say you have been their most supporting mac member?What about a mac user thats played for 8 years?

[hobotnicax.7918]

@"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:so it is anet's fault that APPLE gave up on an industry standard (opengl) and decided to introduce a homebrewn cpu (to make more money and don't have to share with others)? Get a grib on reality.

Apple sells overprized low quality junk. If you bought it, ask yourself about the wisdom of your decision.

Macbook Air M1 would like to have a word with you.

[Dydzio.1320]

Mac may be good for some sorts of "professionals" but it definitely isn't good for power users and running incompatible stuff via compatibility layer software may be roadblocked by Apple etc. I still vote for game engine upgrade to newer directx so there will be performance gain on both windows and linux via wine software. If Anet goes further and decides to use vulkan then they may be able to semi-support Mac indirectly via MoltenVK and maybe even make GW2 work natively on linux while providing even higher performance.

@hobotnicax.7918 said:

Macbook Air M1 would like to have a word with you.

Hi Apple, have you finally started making standalone computers that are somewhat Power User friendly, with ability to replace broken part without buying new device?

[VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.]

@hobotnicax.7918 said:

@"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:so it is anet's fault that APPLE gave up on an industry standard (opengl) and decided to introduce a homebrewn cpu (to make more money and don't have to share with others)? Get a grib on reality.

Apple sells overprized low quality junk. If you bought it, ask yourself about the wisdom of your decision.

Macbook Air M1 would like to have a word with you.

it can talk to my hand. The hand pushing it back into the dumpster fire where it belongs. Apple is a great marketing machine, but their products aren't even half as good as they try to tell people.

[Kaiser.5926]

@Ashantara.8731 said:P.S. Macs were never meant for gaming anyway, and Apple has decided to make this very clear with their latest decisions. Go blame them, not the game developers, especially when it's not a big budget studio.

I fully agree with this one simply because Macs aren't being made to be low-budget reconfigurable devices, unlike desktop (PC) machines (whatever OS they might run on it). If you're unable to reconfigure your own device to run the stuff you want (be it gaming / video editing / workstation or w/e else), I can't see how it's only devs fault. Yes, it's true that with technological advances development studios should try and keep the pace, but it's not always possible / profitable, but it's also true you should try and keep the pace from your own end and not being stuck in a "static" build that would necessarily lead to you not being able the experience stuff in the way you'd want. Not to even mention that you can have your own custom desktop build that's 3 times more effective than Macs' while being cheaper for more than double.

@Ashantara.8731 said:P.S. I don't know a single web programmer or Android app developer who uses a Mac. It's only for graphics design, photography and the like (and you can do the same work just as well on a PC).

And with this I fully disagree. I've been using OSX professionally for web / mobile software development for more than 7 years, and it's rare that I stumble upon a dev that actually uses Windows for programming. Couple of years ago it was almost impossible to do any sort of high-end work on Windows from the web perspective as all the latest web / mobile tools had problems with Windows ENV paths and symlinks. Most of Windows devs I know are there because they're working in VisualStudio or are too afraid to touch UNIX shell.

On the other side, I have my own desktop machine with Windows on it that's built for gaming only, and I'll probably be using it forever in that purpose, just replacing / upgrading specific parts from time to time when needed.

[hobotnicax.7918]

@"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:

@hobotnicax.7918 said:

@"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:so it is anet's fault that APPLE gave up on an industry standard (opengl) and decided to introduce a homebrewn cpu (to make more money and don't have to share with others)? Get a grib on reality.

Apple sells overprized low quality junk. If you bought it, ask yourself about the wisdom of your decision.

Macbook Air M1 would like to have a word with you.

it can talk to my hand. The hand pushing it back into the dumpster fire where it belongs. Apple is a great marketing machine, but their products aren't even half as good as they try to tell people.

Dude, the M1 is destroying everything in the laptop market and it's and entry level chip... Apple is changing the PC market and some people (you for instance), just don't want to accept it.

[Dydzio.1320]

@"hobotnicax.7918" said:Dude, the M1 is destroying everything in the laptop market and it's and entry level chip... Apple is changing the PC market and some people (you for instance), just don't want to accept it.Nope, how about the points from my comment above? I am software developer, gamer, power user and I would not touch apple devices with a stick considering their "dumbed-down foolproof limitation what you can do on their devices". Yes, I like being able to break my hard drive firmware on linux with hdparm tool if I want to.

[hobotnicax.7918]

@Dydzio.1320 said:

@"hobotnicax.7918" said:Dude, the M1 is destroying everything in the laptop market and it's and entry level chip... Apple is changing the PC market and some people (you for instance), just don't want to accept it.Nope, how about the points from my comment above? I am software developer, gamer, power user and I would not touch apple devices with a stick considering their "dumbed-down foolproof limitation what you can do on their devices". Yes, I like being able to break my hard drive firmware on linux with hdparm tool if I want to.

What points? You're just complaining that YOU don't like it, which is irrelevant in an objective view on the matter.Have you ever even owned a Mac - be it a Macbook or iMac?

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

@sunrun.4521 said:

@Hannelore.8153 said:It used to be the opposite; in the '90s Mac was the professional system to have in companies. But over time Apple pretty much gave up on that all together and started targetting users, supplanting Windows in many parts of the home market (especially mobile),, but in doing so gave up the professional market

Not sure which professionals you're talking about, but all the professionals I know use Macs at work. Apple is huge in the professional market. Web programmers, Android and iPhone game and app developers, graphics designers, video editors, sound engineers, photographers... all use Macs at their workplaces. And every day I see about a 3:2 split of Mac/PC laptops for people in the services industries like insurance, accounting, etc.

All the major game engines already support Metal, too, and have for years, which is why a huge number of Steam games run on Mac as well now (including the new M1 Macs via Rosetta translation - often better than they did on Intel Macs).

It's just that ArenaNet uses an outdated custom engine - even on Windows, where they can't even move it past DX9.

I'm talking about professional graphics hardware use--not a browser, spreadsheet, IDE, or anything like that.

[Infusion.7149]

Use Parallels desktop instead of complaining.It makes no economic sense for them to continue development for OpenGL.

[Lucio.4190]

No matter how good Mac will be with the M1, it will still be built on a new architecture, new type of instructions and just porting the current version to the new Mac architecture will require lots of hard work and still not be good enough. It will be like building a totally new game, like suddenly adding support to XBox, PS or Nintendo.Apple has good stuff, fast hardware, which makes it ideal for graphical work in high resolution. Still, there's a big difference in rendering animations and graphic material compared to playing a game. I'm only guessing, but it looks like Mac will not be focusing on making hardware for playing games.

In comparison, Celeron CPU has a very high clock frequency and has for decades been said to be the king of overclocked CPUs, but I've heard the L2 cache is damaged and it shows on the bad performance in MMO or RTS games. How the M1 will handle those games is yet to be discovered. I read the following review at forbes:https://www.forbes.com/sites/patrickmoorhead/2020/12/26/apple-macbook-pro-13-m1-aaa-gaming-experience-good-performance-for-thin-and-lite-but-rough-experience-for-some-games/

If Dota 2 can't get higher than 45-60 fps on average graphical settings at 1440x900, I wouldn't get to giggly about the M1. But Apple computers will be great tools when working with Photoshop.Do we really want ANet to spend lots of money and resources on rebuilding the game for an expensive M1 Mac and will people really spend $3000 on a new Mac to play Guild Wars 2?

[Fueki.4753]

Apple chose to abandon a tool, not Arenanet.The direction in which the finger has to be pointed should be blatantly obvious with that small fact alone.

[Moira Shalaar.5620]

@"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:

@hobotnicax.7918 said:

@"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:so it is anet's fault that APPLE gave up on an industry standard (opengl) and decided to introduce a homebrewn cpu (to make more money and don't have to share with others)? Get a grib on reality.

Apple sells overprized low quality junk. If you bought it, ask yourself about the wisdom of your decision.

Macbook Air M1 would like to have a word with you.

it can talk to my hand. The hand pushing it back into the dumpster fire where it belongs. Apple is a great marketing machine, but their products aren't even half as good as they try to tell people.

I'd be curious if you have ever taken the time to use Mac and get to know it, or if this is simply your opinion formed without having used a Mac in the last decade or so.

[Touchme.1097]

OpenGL is being deprecated by Apple because it's not an efficient tool to use the hardware at its full potential, it will soon be deprecated on all platforms. What is ArenaNet doing about it? You can't live forever on a thin line and false hopes that OpenGL will last forever. Good luck with that. Game development was never meant to be an easy job.

[Smoosh.2718]

I wish people would stop trying to defend Apple tbh. They are anti consumer, they use very cheap labour to make parts to sell at very high prices.. since they are the only ones making Apple products.

Simply put, Apple is like that guy in your guild who leaves the guild and make a new one, asking everyone to join them for a 1000g entry fee and a bizarre set of rules. To little surprise, no one followed them.

In many ways I see this split off a good thing, as now the Devs can focus on working out how to get the performance of GW2 decent on PC... Rather than having to split manpower into creating new code for MAC on every single release.

[maddoctor.2738]

I can understand posts like this one but it's not that Arenanet gave up on Mac OS customers, but Apple gave up on Guild Wars 2 (and other applications). Instead of asking Arenanet to do something that is beyond their control you should instead ask Apple to implement proper APIs for the Mac OS so other applications can be used there. After all I'm sure you spend more money on Apple than Arenanet, and THEY can do something about it.

[Touchme.1097]

Dear ArenaNet, please consider writing an official guide on how to allow MAC users to play GW2 in order to give players at least the chance to enjoy the game they paid for. Nobody is going to refund me my 80 Euros I have spent for the ultimate bundle 4 months ago and I don't think it's reasonable that someone has to spend all that money to see the game client sink all of a sudden.

[Lucio.4190]

Okay.. the pattern in this thread. Before this turns into a discussion on PC/Windows vs Apple, the question isn't about which computer is the best. There's been lots of people almost starting a war about that.The question is however ANet will rewrite the whole Guild Wars 2 for a totally new architecture or not. If they rewrite the whole game for a new Apple architecture, why not building for PS, XBox or Nintento too? Lots of more consoles bought by gamers (duh..) than the Mac.The history of Apple isn't to their advantage either. They were built on a different architecture once, then about 20 years ago they decided to switch to Intel. Now they make a different turn again. How do we know they wont make a new strategic decision again, in maybe 10 years?

While the x86 architecture is technically inferior, the PC market has sticked to this for a very long time and makes it more reliable. I totally support ANet on this decision and I totally understand why they made it. We have no idea if people will buy the M1 and if it will become a success for gamers. But if it is, then it's totally another situation and we could ask ANet to reconsider. As if now, with the cards we now have at hand, it would mean a great risk and a lot of money.I've learned with time that nothing is carved in stone, with other conditions everyone can change their mind.

I would also like to add that ANet has actually asked if GeForce Now is an option, if Apple users are interested in that kind of solution AND offered to refund all gem purchases! This detail says a lot about how expensive it would be to rewrite the whole code to support the new Mac. It is much cheaper to refund all Mac users, than rewriting the game for a new architecture. Please, that is an important detail to keep in mind.