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Why play any other support but Scrapper?


aaron.7850

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@"Voltekka.2375" said:Booncorrupt is still a thing and several nec skills turn one boon into multiple condies.

It's more that it proc condition(s) on applying a condition than turning one boon into multiple condition. A lot of the necromancer's "tools design" are fondamentally dangerous, especially since it's tools are mostly geared toward PvP situations. Traits proc'ing conditions when applying another condition are amongst those dangerous design (I mean, let's imagine that I corrupt stability as a reaper/curse/spite necromancer. This lead me to apply fear that will apply chill, shiver of dread, and torment, insidious disruption. Chill will then lead to 1 bleeds, deathly chill, and 3 vuln, bitter chill. Basically, you turn stability into fear and gain 4 condi as bonus for a 5 condi combo.)

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@God.2708 said:

@"Doug.4930" said:

.........

What? Berserker? Of all the stats to draw comparisons to that's the one you chose? Your point is any group not running berserker gear will lose to groups that are running zerk?? Ill humour you. Tell me, assuming 2 duo roamer groups are equally skilled, 2 condi heralds vs 2 berserker heralds. Who wins? Or hell one berserker herald and one condi herald against 2 condi heralds? Spoiler alert the condi builds win. Because condi is typically stronger roaming. Despite the fact that berserker herald is more than viable it just isn't going to stand up to condi stats like dire/trailblazer.

So..... im not really sure how you think berserker substitutes for minstrel at all. Its all too common that a group that is running zerk will lose to groups running dire, cele or other gear stats. But you throw a minstrel support class into that 2v2 [EDIT: Or any size fight to be honest] and whichever duo [or group] thats running it now becomes un-killable. All other gear stats are now irrelevant. Because like i said above no gear/build comes close to rivaling how much a minsterl support class brings to the table in ANY WvW related fight large or small.

So you can edit my post to replace minstrel with any gear stat. Personally I would have gone with Marauders/trailblazer/dire etc as those gear stats are usually more powerful than straight zerk. But none of them, not even trailblazer which is an abomination in its own right comes close to affecting/breaking the game as much as minstrel gear does.

Two people spiking properly will eat through even dire or minstrel gear. If you think two (or any number of) people coordinating builds to work together should lose to two people simply playing... I don't think you understand how teamwork works.

I have seen time and again plenty of my server's people spike a fully booned minstrel down to 20% hp.Edit: i mean solo spike, not even a coordinated spike from 2 or more.

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@Stand The Wall.6987 said:so does anyone have a reason to play heal rev over druid other then dwarf? ventari got massively nerfed and i'm pretty sure druid out heals them now, not to mention they don't have to worry about the crappy tablet and energy management.

Both druid and ventari rev are really for enthusiasts only. But still, druid is complete garbo in terms of healing and support in WvW. Herald can still have its moments in zergs - ranged healing and condi cleanse, projectile denial. ---all are still good even after nerfs. And the tablet isn't crappy. It's the person behind the tablet who isn't so good at energy management. Just saying.

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@Dadnir.5038 said:

@"Voltekka.2375" said:Booncorrupt is still a thing and several nec skills turn one boon into multiple condies.

It's more that it proc condition(s) on applying a condition than turning one boon into multiple condition. A lot of the necromancer's "tools design" are fondamentally dangerous, especially since it's tools are mostly geared toward PvP situations. Traits proc'ing conditions when applying another condition are amongst those dangerous design (I mean, let's imagine that I corrupt stability as a reaper/curse/spite necromancer. This lead me to apply fear that will apply chill,
shiver of dread
, and torment,
insidious disruption
. Chill will then lead to 1 bleeds,
deathly chill
, and 3 vuln,
bitter chill
. Basically, you turn stability into fear and gain 4 condi as bonus for a 5 condi combo.)

If you run the aforementioned traits, that reaper isnt really useful. Especially against a blob. Unless you play a condi reaper. Which is pretty bad.

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@Dadnir.5038 said:

@Dadnir.5038 said:If you run the aforementioned traits, that reaper isnt really useful. Especially against a blob. Unless you play a condi reaper. Which is pretty bad.

Condi reaper isn't much worse than condi core or condi scourge. It's just less popular than it's power variant.

Mind sharing a build? Cause condireaper lacks the tankiness of core or the corrupts of scourge

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@Voltekka.2375 said:

@Dadnir.5038 said:If you run the aforementioned traits, that reaper isnt really useful. Especially against a blob. Unless you play a condi reaper. Which is pretty bad.

Condi reaper isn't much worse than condi core or condi scourge. It's just less popular than it's power variant.

Mind sharing a build? Cause condireaper lacks the tankiness of core or the corrupts of scourge

Reaper isn't less tanky than core, especially when playing condi since playing condi basically mean playing scepter (furthermore while slightly inferior in LF management, the reaper is superior to core in damage reduction and sustain). As for scourge having more boon corrupt, that's arguable, sure you can say that scourge is the only one with a heal and elite skill that corrupt but does it really make a significant difference? I don't think so. The only unknown is whether one is willing to drop power for condi as a reaper since power make better use of the shroud.

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in the end, firebrand is just the best allround-healer. you never do top cleanse as FB, bc its more important to keep everyone alive and with ageis, stab, boons etc... firebrand has more dodges since two weapons as well (sigil of energy switcherama)

but yeah, support scrapper is a great healer and esp cleanser and has reflects/superspeed/cc as well

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Probably given the recent nerfs to support tempest, I'd say it's optimal to have a support firebrand (mostly for boons but also for healing and cleanses) and a support scrapper (for big healing, lots of condi conversion and access to stealth) in each party. Then fill up the rest of the squad with heralds, scourges, spellbreakers, chronomancers and possibly other classes depending.

Spellbreaker is arguably still best with a support build in public squads because powerbreaker usually has a pretty hard time doing its job when fighting bigger zergs. However, the actual support it provides is pretty meaningsless compared to what scrapper and firebrand do for their parties. The class is pretty much there for some CC and boonstrip with the addition of some support abilities.

That being said, I find it a bit strange how they nerf the weaker one of the two secondary support classes while not touching the already stronger one. It's almost as if they are actively trying to minimise the class variety in WvW.

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  • 2 weeks later...

@Voltekka.2375 said:Necro has booncorrupt, i think its fair scrapper has condi conversion. Just remove condi conversion skills (apart from contemplation of purity) from firebrand and make it condi removal instead. Booncorrupt is still a thing and several nec skills turn one boon into multiple condies.

Boon corrupt is what got scourge severely nerfed. It affects 2 targets now (not including utilities and wells) and is no where near the level of rapid conversion that scrapper is at. Scrapper alone keeps condi builds entirely out of zerging. This doesn't take into consideration the other support it provides - damage reduction, stealth, projectile destruction, the best group super speed in the game, AND some of the strongest healing in the game provided that your group is booned up.

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@Strider.7849 said:

@Voltekka.2375 said:Necro has booncorrupt, i think its fair scrapper has condi conversion. Just remove condi conversion skills (apart from contemplation of purity) from firebrand and make it condi removal instead. Booncorrupt is still a thing and several nec skills turn one boon into multiple condies.

Boon corrupt is what got scourge severely nerfed. It affects 2 targets now (not including utilities and wells) and is no where near the level of rapid conversion that scrapper is at. Scrapper alone keeps condi builds entirely out of zerging. This doesn't take into consideration the other support it provides - damage reduction, stealth, projectile destruction, the best group super speed in the game, AND some of the strongest healing in the game provided that your group is booned up.

It is more so people's stupidity that keeps conditions out of large scale gameplay.

The way conditions are designed you have to overwhelm an opponents counters to bring the conditions to bear. It will never work to just bring a condi build or two into an otherwise power-damage environment because the opposing side will build cleanses to deal with the control conditions and whatever damage a handful of condi-damage dealers put out will just blend into that.

By the same virtue, if you do manage to overwhelm opponents' condition counters with conditions all those control conditions will weave into the damage output and the damage output will just climb making the opposing side collapse with little to no other retort. That also makes conditions potentially incredibly powerful and play-breaking. People occassionally experience that in small doses when they get caught behind and get to feel the state of hopelessness that comes from self-cleansing away only covers and just standing there in a sea of cripple, chill and imob no matter how many buttons they push. Many stab skills come with breaks. Few cleanse skills come with resist.

If you want to see what conditions can do at different scales you need to build a comp around it. It's also probably a good idea that building such comps is not overly appealing, common or simple because most people remember things like the epi meta with unfun dread. That showed what conditions can do and you only need to tally up some numbers to see what it still potentially could do.

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@Dadnir.5038 said:

@Dadnir.5038 said:If you run the aforementioned traits, that reaper isnt really useful. Especially against a blob. Unless you play a condi reaper. Which is pretty bad.

Condi reaper isn't much worse than condi core or condi scourge. It's just less popular than it's power variant.

Mind sharing a build? Cause condireaper lacks the tankiness of core or the corrupts of scourge

Reaper isn't less tanky than core, especially when playing condi since playing condi basically mean playing scepter (furthermore while slightly inferior in LF management, the reaper is superior to core in damage reduction and sustain). As for scourge having more boon corrupt, that's arguable, sure you can say that scourge is the only one with a heal and elite skill that corrupt but does it really make a significant difference? I don't think so. The only unknown is whether one is willing to drop power for condi as a reaper since power make better use of the shroud.Yet everyone running superbunker lf regen builds is running... core. So necros seem to disagree with you.
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