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unhappy mac player - [Merged]


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@Sol.6340 said:Instead of attacking us, consider being sympathetic that one day we were able to login and play a game that we loved to play and the next, we were told we weren't a valued member of the game ecosystem. You're all missing the point. This is Mac players saying, we're part of the group that loves to play this game. We're stuck. Many of us can't afford to pay a subscription, or buy a PC or whatever to keep playing and we are (collectively) upset, disappointed, and angry. IF IT WAS A PC VERSION THAT WAS BEING DISCONTINUED WITH LITTLE TO NO WARNING, WOULDN'T YOU BE UPSET AS WELL?

We are not attacking you, we are telling you to put the blame where it belongs.AND THAT IS APPLE

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@Sol.6340

I'm afraid of quoting you because the last quote got removed along with your post.

But can you stop with the hyperbole? Nobody is attacking you. Literally nobody. Most people want to help Mac players with suggestions and helpful tips to help them keep playing the game. Yet you are flinging your misplaced anger at the community and Anet because some ppeople dared to point out it's not Anet's fault, it's Apple's. Apple is to blame, Apple doesn't want you playing Guild Wars, not Anet.

Anet even offered a few suggestions themselves that could help you keep playing. If they didn't want you or don't value you, they wouldn't have bothered.

But god forbid someone suggests your god has anything to do with you not being able to play GW2 on a Mac, suddenly it's an attack on you.Stop being so single minded and accept that Apple has flaws. They're not perfect and gaming and GW2 don't fit in their vision of the future. So you got left behind because of that. There's nothing wrong with pointing that out and criticising it. You can still like Apple, and most people still agree they do some great things (the monitors and their color space are amazing!), but you can't just blindly follow Apple like a god and when they do something objectionable, redirect your anger at everyone else rather than the ones responsible.

Blame Apple. Not the community, not Anet.At the very least, it's not constructive.

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@Nephalem.8921 said:Have you read the anet post? Apple dropped openGl support. The client will just not work with newer macOS versions anymore unless its build around metal or vulkan which could use moltenVK then. I would like an engine rework which uses vulkan but that would require a lot more staff and time. Anet doesnt have the resources for this.Well, now that they're no longer developing for Mac, they might actually have the resources to update the Windows client since it'll be the only one they work on. I imagine it was quite time consuming building 2 different clients and ensuring they both work as expected. Now they can focus entirely on one, and it might even benefit Mac users who use bootcamp or dual boot Windows or simmilar. It might even work better with wine and other forms of emulation. Could be a blessing in disguise to be honest. We'll see.

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@"Sol.6340" said:Instead of attacking us, consider being sympathetic that one day we were able to login and play a game that we loved to play and the next, we were told we weren't a valued member of the game ecosystem. You're all missing the point. This is Mac players saying, we're part of the group that loves to play this game. We're stuck. Many of us can't afford to pay a subscription, or buy a PC or whatever to keep playing and we are (collectively) upset, disappointed, and angry. IF IT WAS A PC VERSION THAT WAS BEING DISCONTINUED WITH LITTLE TO NO WARNING, WOULDN'T YOU BE UPSET AS WELL?

Multiple people asked you how are you being attacked after you claimed the same in your thread (where you were the one insulting others btw) and you didn't answer. Instead you came to another thread and still try to claim that saying things like "anet didn't do it to you, apple did" is somehow offensive towards you. It's not.And it's clearly you who's missing the point here. Blame apple about what they decided to do with products you buy and use.

...also there are ways around it that people keep posting on this forum as well.

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It costs you zero monetarily to install Linux if you (people that have the kneejerk hatred to Arenanet) want to be cheap / obtuse and not use Windows via Boot Camp or Parallels. As such I really don't understand the need for macOS users to spam this sort of thread on the official forum.Cheap (Linux) , Fast (Boot Camp), Easy (Parallels) ... choose one. You can post all you want but you have to realize the decision has been made at the executive level already. There was probably in-house discussion on the ramifications of a change.

Given the amount of lawsuits a company as big as Epic Games had with Apple, it is utterly unreasonable to expect NCSoft (and Arenanet indirectly) to put up with that stuff.

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@lare.5129 said:

@Nephalem.8921 said:Do you know how programming works?yes. And you know how programming and Market works?

Android is

MacOS doesAndroid and MacOS is a market. If you not support that this is product problem, but not problem for Android or MacOS.

And what I meant with mac hardware was that its not common to have very powerful graphic cards in imacs. Can you even get something like a 3080 or 6800xt inside one?I don't care about big fps rate. We talk is it supported or not.

MacOS is not iOS (iPhone/iPad).

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@Sol.6340 said:Instead of attacking us, consider being sympathetic that one day we were able to login and play a game that we loved to play and the next, we were told we weren't a valued member of the game ecosystem. You're all missing the point. This is Mac players saying, we're part of the group that loves to play this game. We're stuck. Many of us can't afford to pay a subscription, or buy a PC or whatever to keep playing and we are (collectively) upset, disappointed, and angry. IF IT WAS A PC VERSION THAT WAS BEING DISCONTINUED WITH LITTLE TO NO WARNING, WOULDN'T YOU BE UPSET AS WELL?

GW2 was a PC based game from inception. Your last point is flawed.

Also, no one is telling anyone that they are not longer a valued member of the game ecosystem. I get it. You're upset. But hyperbole never helps an argument.

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@lare.5129 said:

@"crepuscular.9047" said:OpenGL has been around for close to 30 years, and it's open-sourced, so this is an Apple issue for not adopting open-sourced APIyou wrong

It runs fine does not mean it's is not officially by supported by Apple

just like running Windows application on Linux via Wine, it's not supported, you can try to call the software provider and complaint about their software is broken, but they will reject your support request once they figure out how you are trying to run it.

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@Veprovina.4876 said:

@"crepuscular.9047" said:OpenGL has been around for close to 30 years, and it's open-sourced, so this is an Apple issue for not adopting open-sourced APIyou wrong

Unfortunately that's not the point. Yes it works
for now
. But, and i quote Anet:

"In 2018, Apple ended support for the OpenGL graphics technology that Guild Wars 2 uses on the Mac. While games and other software that rely on OpenGL still work for now, Apple has made it clear that this will not always be the case in new OS versions. They have also stopped actively fixing problems on Mac OS related to OpenGL, including graphics hardware driver issues. "

It may not work for much longer. Apple stop fixing any problems with OpenGL on their systems, dropped support for it, and while it's still there in a kind of "legacy" capacity, it might not be for much longer. That's the problem, the "what next", not "how it is now"... Anet, and many others can't bank on OpenGL working and it's not a good idea to base your support on assumptions.

As for the other Apple stuff like a new chip and Metal (i think?) API, that requires a re-write of the code to work with that. Anet just doesn't have the resources to do it.It is what it is, and you have only Apple to blame.

This is the price of exclusivity as opposed to inclusivity. Apple wants to have an exclusive club of users, devs and their ecosystem, but that unfortunately means that not everyone is invited. That's what you pay for. A cool secure OS and app ecosystem that's entirely under Apple's control with no chance of any "unwanted" software on it. It just so happens that Guild Wars 2 falls under "unwanted" because they use OpenGL.

The kernel of MacOS is Open Source.

OpenGL last update was 3+ years ago. Vulkan has a lot more future.

Anet probably can't updated their own engine.

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@Sol.6340

No one is saying you shouldn't be upset. I would be upset in your shoes. Whether it was because I played on a Mac or if ANet was discontinuing support for Windows.

What people are saying is that the reason for the discontinuation is due to a choice that Apple made. So yelling at ANet isn't going to change anything. Because they aren't the ones to blame.

I'm sure ANet looked at the cost it would take to take the Mac client and make it compatible with the hardware/software Apple is continuing support on. I'm sure if they had unlimited funds and time, that they would have gladly made the changes required to make the game work on the new OS. But they likely ran the numbers on the estimated expenses and the estimated profits and compared it to the estimated loss of income that dropping those not willing to do workarounds to continue playing and decided that it would cost them too much to make the changes.

Larger companies may have the money and manpower to make the changes necessarily. But unfortunately, decisions like these hurt smaller gaming companies who don't have the time or money to continue support.

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@PadmaPhala.1824 said:

@"crepuscular.9047" said:OpenGL has been around for close to 30 years, and it's open-sourced, so this is an Apple issue for not adopting open-sourced APIyou wrong

Unfortunately that's not the point. Yes it works
for now
. But, and i quote Anet:

"In 2018, Apple ended support for the OpenGL graphics technology that Guild Wars 2 uses on the Mac. While games and other software that rely on OpenGL still work for now, Apple has made it clear that this will not always be the case in new OS versions. They have also stopped actively fixing problems on Mac OS related to OpenGL, including graphics hardware driver issues. "

It may not work for much longer. Apple stop fixing any problems with OpenGL on their systems, dropped support for it, and while it's still there in a kind of "legacy" capacity, it might not be for much longer. That's the problem, the "what next", not "how it is now"... Anet, and many others can't bank on OpenGL working and it's not a good idea to base your support on assumptions.

As for the other Apple stuff like a new chip and Metal (i think?) API, that requires a re-write of the code to work with that. Anet just doesn't have the resources to do it.It is what it is, and you have only Apple to blame.

This is the price of exclusivity as opposed to inclusivity. Apple wants to have an exclusive club of users, devs and their ecosystem, but that unfortunately means that not everyone is invited. That's what you pay for. A cool secure OS and app ecosystem that's entirely under Apple's control with no chance of any "unwanted" software on it. It just so happens that Guild Wars 2 falls under "unwanted" because they use OpenGL.

The kernel of MacOS is Open Source.

OpenGL last update was 3+ years ago. Vulkan has a lot more future.

Anet probably can't updated their own engine.

What's your point? I'm curious.

Cause even if Anet updates to Vulkan somehow, Apple still won't support that, especially not on the M1 chip (which they'll move on to exclusively soon, or at least that's what they told), not to mention that, even if Anet does support Vulkan on M1 there's still a matter of a different architecture to code for which still means it's 2 completely different clients for Anet to maintain.

But also, yes, OpenGL being last updated so long kinda is the problem as well.

And MacOS being open source has nothing to do with this particular issue that arose.

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@sniperman.1738 said:the mac users are a small margin of gw2, plus reality is if you are going to game you should be buying a windows pc not a mac, as windows is designed more for gaming and is more realistically priced.

That's not the point. Some people have a mac for whatever work they need it for, and just hapen to play one or two games on it, GW2 being and example.For those people it wouldn't make sense to buy a gaming PC just to play GW2. So until now they had the option, but Apple took that option away from them.

Don't make this into Mac vs PC because that's not the issue. Most Mac players didn't specifically buy their mac to play games, they bought it for X reason and just happened to play GW2 on it.

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I feel your pain.

However, I agree with others when they say this is an Apple issue. Apple made decisions that Arenanet is not able to comply with.

Good news is, you can emulate Windows (for free even) on a Mac. You could also purchase a PC for probably about $300 to play Guild Wars 2. It really just depends on how much Guild Wars 2 is worth to you and how much you are willing to spend on your hobbies.

I think it is terrible that there wasn't a longer window for support after the announcement. Supporting the Apple OS for 6 more months (or until EoD) after an announcement so players have a better opportunity to prepare and transition. OpenGL is likely to still work for that timeframe. 2 months or whatever is pretty harsh.

This could also be an indication that they may be updating the client with EoD and really only have resources to update the PC client.

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@"Veprovina.4876" said:As for the other Apple stuff like a new chip and Metal (i think?) API, that requires a re-write of the code to work with that.yes, some part if project alive should be always rewritten. This is common situation.

Anet just doesn't have the resources to do it.I see it.

It is what it is, and you have only Apple to blame.I don't see any reason blame Ocean wind if ship have trouble.

This is the price of exclusivity as opposed to inclusivity.15% of USE market? exclusivity is Haiku OS market. But not macos.

but that unfortunately means that not everyone is invited.ofc should not everyone is invited. If you think that giant as Apply should run around Anet and suggest better solution - this is wrong vision.Everyone should jump and dance around IT Kings, but nut wait spcial invite.

A cool secure OS and app ecosystem that's entirely under Apple's control with no chance of any "unwanted" software on it. It just so happens that Guild Wars 2 falls under "unwanted" because they use OpenGL.And ? Look around, see how to solved other company, how we many time discuss one of GW2 concurrents:Blizzard updates 'World of Warcraft' with native support for Apple Siliconhttps://appleinsider.com/articles/20/11/17/blizzard-updates-world-of-warcraft-to-natively-support-apple-silicon

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I don't see reason blame Ocean wind (Apple) from small ship (anet)

Giant do what he want. Don't like and don't update yourself ? it way to be dead.

Today apple with new fantastic architecture, after few years drop support of Nvidia or AMD Radeon? Or don't support new discrete Intel video cards? (will be presented this year on comp tech)

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@Veprovina.4876 said:

@sniperman.1738 said:the mac users are a small margin of gw2, plus reality is if you are going to game you should be buying a windows pc not a mac, as windows is designed more for gaming and is more realistically priced.

That's not the point. Some people have a mac for whatever work they need it for, and just hapen to play one or two games on it, GW2 being and example.For those people it wouldn't make sense to buy a gaming PC just to play GW2. So until now they had the option, but Apple took that option away from them.

Don't make this into Mac vs PC because that's not the issue. Most Mac players didn't specifically buy their mac to play games, they bought it for X reason and just
happened
to play GW2 on it.

“they brought it for X reason and just happened to play on GW2.” It pretty accurate on me lol.I work on Mac for professional until my friend suggest me to try play GW2 for first time I play. Time fast and I loved it.

So, pretty much sum everything about i understand. I blame Apple still if only they told earlier. 1 month away from that and it really broke my heart. I don’t learn the mistake actually. but for the future i will get pc when I’m ready to get for LWS and expansion! Here i come!

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@"Sol.6340" said:I don't know how many other players were also playing on the Mac client, it certainly had its drawbacks but it worked for what I needed. As you drop Mac players, with almost no warning, you're also dropping a selection of your player base and telling us that we're not worthy of your time, your effort, or your game - regardless of the investments that we've made to be part of the game ecosystem. I was a beta tester, I've been here 8 years, but now? Now I'm a nobody.

What's next? Dropping the ability to play via nVidia? With little or no warning AND I have to buy a subscription to play and hope that my internet connection is fast enough to do so? Or do I buy a current generation PC to game on, spend thousands of dollars on a computer only to be told, again with little or no warning, that my operating system/graphics card/whatever is no longer viable? Yes, in this case, Mac users got screwed but now that its happened, who's next under the knife?

For the PC users who are like, "I don't know why you'd buy a Mac to game with anyways" - let me respond with, for 8 YEARS it was okay, and then one day, I woke up, logged in, and found out it wasn't. This isn't on me, this is on Arena Net. This is on the people who are unwilling to upgrade to an actual solution for OpenGL. There's options, but it would take effort and I've been told I'm not worth the effort.

This game was my lifeline, a place where I had a community, friends, and something that mattered. No longer available, I'm very frustrated. I'm tired of the flames, I'm tired of not being good enough, and I'm tired of the idea that you're not willing to even turn over your code to the community so that we can build our own solution for the Mac side of the equation.

I was looking forward to Factions. I was looking forward to fighting with my friends in wvw this week. I was doing my best to actually buy currency to support development. And at the end of the day, none of it matters.

I'm just one voice in a sea of thousands, but just because you don't hear me, doesn't mean it doesn't matter.

Youre pointing the finger on wrong direction, go write this at your belowed Mac devs. They are the ones to blame and no one else.Its not the beginning of the end, well maybe for the Mac users it is but not for us the majority.And the dropping support with nvidia will most probably never happen. Why you ask? because they actually work with everyone else, they dont think about their own arse only like some devs seems to.

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Apple has long claimed that their computers run PC software better than PCs run PC software. They have even claimed that PC software on a Mac runs bug free, regardless of how buggy the software might be. So, there has never been a reason to make an Apple version of any software, because Macs are magic!

I am on team Anet on this. I am not on Apple's team corporate marketing. Using Anet resources to keep up with the Apple "change for change sake" treadmill is a waste.

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@"anduriell.6280" said:Probably the dev who did the OpelGL adaptation is working no more for Anet. So there is nobody to work in the mac client.

I assume that this, or something similar, is the real reason. Not the fact that Apple will fully drop OpenGL support at some (unknown) point in the future - and only for those updating to the then-new version of OpenGL -, meaning that those on Intel-based Macs could continue playing until then, or "forever" as long as they do not update to a Mac with M1/M2/... (whatever they have at the time), or a macOS that precludes OpenGL support.I would appreciate calling a banana a banana, however, and stating outright "we lack the resources to maintain the current client, or to develop a new one for macOS, or even to port new additions, after 2020. We are sorry about this and hope for your understanding". I would be 100% OK with that (although still quite sad). But what they communicate is something totally different, and there simply is no reason to kill the game for all Intel-based current users "by mid-February" that is dictated by Apple, as some here have stated.(I am well aware of the difficulties of porting, so skip explaining that to me, as I do not ask for this. Being unable or unwilling to keep the client alive given no changes from Apple's side for the current user base, minus M1-based users - which is a very small minority at the moment, surely -, but blaming Apple's decisions and their future effect is simple false representation and using a scapegoat, however, and I am totally fed up with such behaviour.)

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