unhappy mac player - [Merged]

[Linken.6345]

@Gyro.9182 said:

@"anduriell.6280" said:Probably the dev who did the OpelGL adaptation is working no more for Anet. So there is nobody to work in the mac client.

I assume that this, or something similar, is the real reason. Not the fact that Apple will fully drop OpenGL support at some (unknown) point in the future - and only for those updating to the then-new version of OpenGL -, meaning that those on Intel-based Macs could continue playing until then, or "forever" as long as they do not update to a Mac with M1/M2/... (whatever they have at the time), or a macOS that precludes OpenGL support.I would appreciate calling a banana a banana, however, and stating outright "we lack the resources to maintain the current client, or to develop a new one for macOS, or even to port new additions, after 2020. We are sorry about this and hope for your understanding". I would be 100% OK with that (although still quite sad). But what they communicate is something totally different, and there simply is no reason to kill the game for all Intel-based current users "by mid-February" that is

dictated by Apple

, as some here have stated.(I am well aware of the difficulties of porting, so skip explaining that to me, as I do not ask for this. Being unable or unwilling to keep the client alive given no changes from Apple's side for the current user base, minus M1-based users - which is a very small minority at the moment, surely -, but blaming Apple's decisions and their future effect is simple false representation and using a scapegoat, however, and I am totally fed up with such behaviour.)

You do know that apple fully droped support for OpenGL in 2018 right?

[Gyro.9182]

@"Linken.6345" said:You do know that apple fully droped support for OpenGL in 2018 right?Please, not that tired argument again.

Yes, Apple stopped "support" for OpenGL in 2018, which means that there have not been any (or at least no meaningful ones, perhaps there were a few I did not notice) updates to OpenGL.But guess what, my Macs are running the latest OS, latest update (about a month old), and guess whether Guild Wars 2 still runs as well as ever (not great, but usable) using OpenGL on them? By your logic, Guild Wars 2 should have died sometime in 2018...?Apple "stopping support" means almost nothing, as the game has continued running, and will continue to run until Apple provides a macOS update that actively removes all OpenGL support instead of "keeping it intact, just outdated". (This won't be before this fall at least, by the way). And even then, nobody would force me to update to that macOS release.Instead, Anet is dumping the whole game in about five weeks, although it would have worked just as well as before for Intel-based Mac users, at least until fall. So Anet pulling the plug now, and blaming Apple for it, is scapegoating Apple for a problem Anet has. Sorry.

[kharmin.7683]

@"Random Wax Orc.7695" said:Apple has long claimed that their computers run PC software better than PCs run PC software. They have even claimed that PC software on a Mac runs bug free, regardless of how buggy the software might be. So, there has never been a reason to make an Apple version of any software, because Macs are magic!

I am on team Anet on this. I am not on Apple's team corporate marketing. Using Anet resources to keep up with the Apple "change for change sake" treadmill is a waste.

It's not change for change sake. It's forcing consumers to purchase something to continue the revenue stream.

[Veprovina.4876]

@lare.5129 said:

@"Veprovina.4876" said:As for the other Apple stuff like a new chip and Metal (i think?) API, that requires a re-write of the code to work with that.yes, some part if project alive should be always rewritten. This is common situation.

Anet just doesn't have the resources to do it.I see it.

It is what it is, and you have only Apple to blame.I don't see any reason blame Ocean wind if ship have trouble.

This is the price of exclusivity as opposed to inclusivity.15% of USE market? exclusivity is Haiku OS market. But not macos.

but that unfortunately means that not everyone is invited.ofc should not everyone is invited. If you think that giant as Apply should run around Anet and suggest better solution - this is wrong vision.Everyone should jump and dance around IT Kings, but nut wait spcial invite.

A cool secure OS and app ecosystem that's entirely under Apple's control with no chance of any "unwanted" software on it. It just so happens that Guild Wars 2 falls under "unwanted" because they use OpenGL.And ? Look around, see how to solved other company, how we many time discuss one of GW2 concurrents:Blizzard updates 'World of Warcraft' with native support for Apple Silicon

https://appleinsider.com/articles/20/11/17/blizzard-updates-world-of-warcraft-to-natively-support-apple-silicon

You sound like a marketing bot, seriously...I'm sure everything you said is very helpful to people who can't play Guild Wars 2 anymore because of Apple's changes.+1 for comparing a multi million dollar company like Blizzard with 100x more staff than Anet. Totally relevant!

[Gyro.9182]

You gotta love the community here. "Why would anybody play on a Mac in any case?", "Apple sucks", "Apple is to blame for everything", "Anet has explained that Apple is to blame", yatta yatta. (Not necessarily all in this thread).Please...

1. Just spare us Mac users who are somewhere between sad, tired, frustrated and heart-torn your sentiments on the quality of the macOS platform. We don't care to hear them, they don't help us or the situation, and are usually more insulting than helpful. If a relative you love is badly hurt, comparisons that their brother was always better at playing soccer won't help. I know this is not a good analogy, but if you're not a Mac user, or consider the platform inferior by nature without having anything else to provide, do the respectful thing, keep your mouth shut (or keyboard untouched), and go somewhere else.
2. I don't believe Anet's statement is really fully truthful. (I'll give you some time to get outraged or whatever). Why? Yes, Apple has introduced a new CPU - so Anet could simply state "sorry, we lack the resources to port it to M1, you can try it, but no promises, and no porting to it planned for now". I assume Apple users would understand that - at least those who work with software development do. Yes, Apple "no longer supports OpenGL" - but Apple did that in 2018, and has kept the same version of OpenGL since, in all including the newest macOS versions for Intel-based Macs (it's possibly/probably missing on M1, but I am not sure about that). And guess what, GW2 runs on macOS 11.1 (the latest version there is) just as well (or not-too-great, or whatever) as it did before Apple made the announcement. Yes, there is a chance that Apple will remove OpenGL altogether from a future version of OpenGL - in this case, point that out to users: "note that if you update to macOS XX (with XX > 11.1, and some time in the future), Guild Wars 2 will no longer run." Again, fine, that gives me the ability to choose whether I want to update my OS or keep GW2 alive and running.

What Anet does instead is kill a working and running client, for no valid Apple-caused reason that would mean it could not work beyond February 18, roughly at the half-way point between the release of the current macOS and the next version (11.2?). This is not Apple's fault, or caused by Apple, but a decision made by Anet. And I at least would appreciate honesty, I have heard lies, falsehoods, scapegoating etc. far too often over the course of the last year(s).

[Opopanax.1803]

@"Gyro.9182" said:You gotta love the community here. "Why would anybody play on a Mac in any case?", "Apple sucks", "Apple is to blame for everything", "Anet has explained that Apple is to blame", yatta yatta. (Not necessarily all in this thread).Please...

1. Just spare us Mac users who are somewhere between sad, tired, frustrated and heart-torn your sentiments on the quality of the macOS platform. We don't care to hear them, they don't help us or the situation, and are usually more insulting than helpful. If a relative you love is badly hurt, comparisons that their brother was always better at playing soccer won't help. I know this is not a good analogy, but if you're not a Mac user, or consider the platform inferior by nature without having anything else to provide, do the respectful thing, keep your mouth shut (or keyboard untouched), and go somewhere else.
2. I don't believe Anet's statement is really fully truthful. (I'll give you some time to get outraged or whatever). Why? Yes, Apple has introduced a new CPU - so Anet could simply state "sorry, we lack the resources to port it to M1, you can try it, but no promises, and no porting to it planned for now". I assume Apple users would understand that - at least those who work with software development do. Yes, Apple "no longer supports OpenGL" - but Apple did that in 2018, and has kept the same version of OpenGL since, in all including the newest macOS versions for Intel-based Macs (it's possibly/probably missing on M1, but I am not sure about that). And guess what, GW2 runs on macOS 11.1 (the latest version there is) just as well (or not-too-great, or whatever) as it did before Apple made the announcement. Yes, there is a chance that Apple will remove OpenGL altogether from a future version of OpenGL - in this case, point that out to users: "note that if you update to macOS XX (with XX > 11.1, and some time in the future), Guild Wars 2 will no longer run." Again, fine, that gives me the ability to choose whether I want to update my OS or keep GW2 alive and running.

What Anet does instead is kill a working and running client, for no valid Apple-caused reason that would mean it could not work beyond February 18, roughly at the half-way point between the release of the current macOS and the next version (11.2?). This is not Apple's fault, or caused by Apple, but a decision made by Anet. And I at least would appreciate honesty, I have heard lies, falsehoods, scapegoating etc. far too often over the course of the last year(s).

I dont think anyone is nieve enough to think this all one sided, but the reality is very much that Apple creates there own treadmills. Most of us have known this for quite some time.

When you look at Apple's recent censorship, this just confirms they want to railroad everyone and everything onto their track... giving them money.

The good thing is, there are options for you that will allow you to play on your mac still, and likely better than natively! I call that a win-win.

[ASP.8093]

@Balsa.3951 said:I imagine that's the real reason Anet delayed Steam

To be honest, I think a long internal conversation about how to fix the Living Story monetization model is the real reason Anet is delaying Steam.

(For the simple reason that they could simply do a Windows-only Steam release if they wanted to.)

[DeanBB.4268]

@kharmin.7683 said:

@"Random Wax Orc.7695" said:Apple has long claimed that their computers run PC software better than PCs run PC software. They have even claimed that PC software on a Mac runs bug free, regardless of how buggy the software might be. So, there has never been a reason to make an Apple version of any software, because Macs are magic!

I am on team Anet on this. I am not on Apple's team corporate marketing. Using Anet resources to keep up with the Apple "change for change sake" treadmill is a waste.

It's not change for change sake. It's forcing consumers to purchase something to continue the revenue stream.

Wait. Apple/Mac is an MMO? :open_mouth:

[sorudo.9054]

if you happened to play GW2 on a mac because work then you have no one but yourself to blame, it's bin clear for about 20 years that mac is not, and i repeat, not made to play games on.better yet, any pro gamer would laugh in your face when mentioning mac as a gaming platform, screaming about it now only makes you look petty.

i am not trying to fight or anything but you should know better, a cheap pc of 500 bucks can handle GW2 better than a 2K mac and it has bin proven so many times it's ridicules.Anet just did this to spare them the trouble, mac has never bin their main market in any way and that's the case for many other games.

one big positive thing i see is that they could now upgrade the game without worrying about apple stuff, it's a straight road to windows OS and nothing more.

[dandamanno.4136]

Apple is worth $2 Trillion dollars. NCSoft (which Anet is just a part of) is worth only $12 Billion.

Why do you find faultless one of the worlds richest companies who could very easily maintain compatibility with current games with a pittance of investment, and yet think that Anet, a small subsidiary, of an already smallish company should be tasked with this extra burden financially?

Apple doesn't care that you want to use their machines for gaming. That is clear by their actions.

Also, as a side note ESO put out basically the same letter as Anet. No support for Mac on ESO either. Same reasons too. Two much dev time and simply not enough people play on a Mac to justify it.

[Gyro.9182]

@Opopanax.1803 said:I dont think anyone is nieve enough to think this all one sided, but the reality is very much that Apple creates there own treadmills. Most of us have known this for quite some time.

I like your statement. However, I have seen a sufficient number of posts that indeed blame Apple exclusively for this, so I have to respectfully disagree with the first part of the sentence, without disagreeing with the rest...

[lare.5129]

@Veprovina.4876 said:I'm sure everything you said is very helpful to people who can't play Guild Wars 2 anymore because of Apple's changes.today apply, but as for me soon arm on desctop cam be more mainstream. And not support that - don't look in future.

+1 for comparing a multi million dollar company like Blizzard with 100x more staff than Anet.100x? joke? If you want compare all sum partu you need make Activision Blizzard(wow department) vs NCSOFT (where anet is sub part)An we see revenue $6.489 billion vs$ 1.543 billion. Yes, we have difference, 4.3, but not 100x ...

[lare.5129]

@dandamanno.4136 said:Apple doesn't care that you want to use their machines for gaming. That is clear by their actions.so why they produce api metal ? And why mane games already declare support .. 14800 applications already support this ..

[lare.5129]

@Sobx.1758 said:True. So you should stop crying about it when you're so eager to support these great practices. What's your problem here?there is no any problem if u not worry will be alive gw2

[Sobx.1758]

@lare.5129 said:

@"Sobx.1758" said:True. So you should stop crying about it when you're so eager to support these great practices. What's your problem here?there is no any problem if u not worry will be alive gw2

Good. So instead of saying in these threads whatever you're trying to constantly say (which basically boils down to "mac will make pcs irrelevant" -LOL), maybe tell the complainers to make educated choices and then live with them instead of misplacing blame on anet while still supporting apple's practices by just buying new stuff as a response.

[Nephalem.8921]

@lare.5129 said:

@dandamanno.4136 said:Apple doesn't care that you want to use their machines for gaming. That is clear by their actions.so why they produce api metal ? And why mane games already declare support .. 14800 applications already support this ..

Graphics api is used for more than gaming. How many of the 14800 applications are games? How many are mobile games?

[Gyro.9182]

@"Nephalem.8921" said:Graphics api is used for more than gaming. How many of the 14800 applications are games? How many are mobile games?While I can‘t speak for the 14,800 (Apple apparently lists it as 148,000, „as of June 2017“), you might check the list on Wikipedia here to see some examples including well-known (and not „small“) games like CIV VI, Dota 2, Quake 2, diverse Tomb Raider or Total War games, WoW, or Fortnite. URL for the lazy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metal_(API) (the list is probably neither complete nor very recent)..

[lare.5129]

@"Sobx.1758" said:So instead of saying in these threads whatever you're trying to constantly say (which basically boils down to "mac will make pcs irrelevant" -LOL)will make? no, I don't say that. That it WAS.

maybe tell the complainers to make educated choices and then live with them instead of misplacing blame on anetI am not blame. I am say that it very SAD.

while still supporting apple's practices by just buying new stuff as a response.it is good stuff. Not best,, but is big payable market.

[Veprovina.4876]

@lare.5129 said:

@Veprovina.4876 said:I'm sure everything you said is very helpful to people who can't play Guild Wars 2 anymore because of Apple's changes.today apply, but as for me soon arm on desctop cam be more mainstream. And not support that - don't look in future.

+1 for comparing a multi million dollar company like Blizzard with 100x more staff than Anet.100x? joke? If you want compare all sum partu you need make Activision Blizzard(wow department) vs NCSOFT (where anet is sub part)An we see revenue $6.489 billion vs$ 1.543 billion. Yes, we have difference, 4.3, but not 100x ...

Yes the 100x was an exaggeration obviously, but you see my point, that 4,3 billion difference is enough for them to have multiple clients. Also, you compared NCsoft To blizzard. Not all NCsoft money is going to Anet, so the gap is even larger.

[dandamanno.4136]

@Gyro.9182 said:

@"Nephalem.8921" said:Graphics api is used for more than gaming. How many of the 14800 applications are games? How many are mobile games?While I can‘t speak for the 14,800 (Apple apparently lists it as 148,000, „as of June 2017“), you might check the list on Wikipedia here to see some examples including well-known (and not „small“) games like CIV VI, Dota 2, Quake 2, diverse Tomb Raider or Total War games, WoW, or Fortnite. URL for the lazy:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metal_(API

) (the list is probably neither complete nor very recent)..

https://www.gameinformer.com/2020

Here is a list of all games released in 2020.

Trying to find supported Mac games is like a needle in a haystack.

Most companies find it not worthwhile. Im not sure why people are surprised that Anet wouldn't be willing to support Mac going forward, now that extra time and expense would be required.

[Gyro.9182]

@dandamanno.4136 said:Most companies find it not worthwhile. Im not sure why people are surprised that Anet wouldn't be willing to support Mac going forward, now that extra time and expense would be required.

As pointed out several times, there is a difference between „not supporting the new products“ (fine, everybody can understand that, whether happy about it or not) and „kill the game even for the existing platform that does not require „extra time and expense“ beyond what it always did. The latter is what Anet is doing by killing the game for all Mac users. If this is due to a lack of manpower, time or money, OK, but then they could be honest and say so. It is not because of „changes Apple made“, as they will not affect 99% of the Mac player base anytime soon (most of such probably don‘t have the intention to switch to M1 „right now“, plus they have only introduced the laptops + Mini so far with M1, not the iMac).

[Linken.6345]

@Gyro.9182 said:

@dandamanno.4136 said:Most companies find it not worthwhile. Im not sure why people are surprised that Anet wouldn't be willing to support Mac going forward, now that extra time and expense would be required.

As pointed out several times, there is a difference between „not supporting the new products“ (fine, everybody can understand that, whether happy about it or not) and „kill the game even for the existing platform that does

not

require „extra time and expense“ beyond what it always did. The latter is what Anet is doing by killing the game for all Mac users. If this is due to a lack of manpower, time or money, OK, but then they could be honest and say so. It is

not

because of „changes Apple made“, as they will not affect 99% of the Mac player base anytime soon (most of such probably don‘t have the intention to switch to M1 „right now“, plus they have only introduced the laptops + Mini so far with M1, not the iMac).

So if anet advertise that its avaliable on mac and then dont work on all type of macs people will accept that?I dont think so hence why they are pulling out.

[ASP.8093]

@"Linken.6345" said:So if anet advertise that its avaliable on mac and then dont work on all type of macs people will accept that?I dont think so hence why they are pulling out.

I think the vast majority of the user base would rather have continued "no warranty" access to the native Mac client than jump through all sorts of hoops just to keep playing an old game in a degraded state. I get that MMOGs are "always evolving" but the basic engine code seems to be pretty static (look at how the Windows client is still locked to DX9); continuing to compile the Mac binaries and just letting the chips fall where they may bug-wise would be way better than what we're getting now.

[Gyro.9182]

@"Linken.6345" said:So if anet advertise that its avaliable on mac and then dont work on all type of macs people will accept that?I dont think so hence why they are pulling out.

If Anet advertised that it is available on macOS/Intel, but they are unable to provide a macOS/M1 version, I would assume that (a) almost all Mac users will accept that (you will never reach 100% acceptance for anything, I assume), (b) it will not matter to most Mac users at the moment, © the current player base would simply be able to continue playing.Saying "we can't port it to a system you and 99% of all current Mac users are not actually using, so we will go a step further and kill the game that works on your machine, too" is a somewhat different message, isn't it? And that's the one Anet is sending.Repeating myself, if there are reasons (lack of money, the lead Mac developer is leaving Anet, ...) that prevent Anet from supporting the current client, I would understand that (thought I would, of course, still not be happy about it). But blaming Apple's new chipset that has no bearing on the existing client and the announcing "so we just kill it for everybody who is not affected by the new chip, and who could have continued using the game"...?

[Master Ketsu.4569]

Can't Apple use Wine? I know it doesn't work as well as it does on Linux, but it's worth a shot.

My laptop is running Kubu linux and can run GW2 with wine at about 50 fps which isn't the best but it's not bad. Vulkan drivers help.