How to make better jumping puzzles - [Merged]

[mindcircus.1506]

@Ahrya.3097 said:

Regarding cheese of JPs:

! > @"mindcircus.1506"! > Out of curiosity why do you feel it's a positive to allow one player to cheese another through the content?Were this a discussion being had in 2012 at the conception of the game, I'd probably be against it. However assisted cheesing of the content has been around since portals and has just gotten more prevalent with all the other mechanics added on top over time. I think at this point it is more or less an accepted and almost expected part of the GW2 community and taking it away would make many people quite angry. I am not suggesting anything that makes it more cheeseable than it already is, aside from maybe making it easier to practice. To actually get the achievements or rewards the JPs still need to be done at least in the way they currently exist. Then on top of that, I'm proposing modes that return some integrity to the JP achievements which require them to be done solo, without cheese and as they were originally intended to be done. However I strongly suggest the rewards for this remain JP related, and mastery points or the legendary collections are not shifted from the unrestricted mode to the restricted or time trial modes.The Community getting upset about not being able to trivialize content is not a reason to stop them from trivializing it. Imagine if the developers has said "oh well we cannot possibly stop AB Multiloot now, people would get upset" (and many people did). This is. after all, a method of people getting rewards (JP chests, daily completion, achievements) that they are not earning. Your proposed changes would be a perfect place to close this issue out, however you stop short either because you think (rightfully) that it would make your suggestions unpopular or it would put your tip money from being a "a daily JP porter" at risk.The absolute first thing Anet would need to do to make this content legitimate and devote more resources to things like increased rewards, challenge modes, time trials, is close down the way players are exploiting mesmer portals to cheese each other through the content. Then they would need to put an end to the mount skips that exist for just about every JP.The fact that you have suggested a system that would address these issues but have chosen to muddy the waters with some sort of facility to keep skipping players to rewards and achievements they have not earned removes pretty much all value from your suggestion to me.Seems just like another self-interested suggestion in a forum filled with them.

[Ahrya.3097]

Regarding adequacy of current rewards and difficulty

@"DeanBB.4268" said:! >There are currently over 50 jumping puzzles, and I believe they all reward AP's when first completed. Cumulatively, that's enough for a reward chest (plus or minus, not sure they all reward 10 AP). I wouldn't want to see them changed to require some sort of check point or really anything to make them more difficult. If "time trial mode" or somesuch were to be added, just have that be above and beyond the normal JP requirements.!! >But really, this is Anet. When do they ever go back to change old things? Retreat! is not their motto, Charge! is! :)Not asking for them to be more difficult, asking for the option to do them as they were originally intended to be done for better rewards/ currency and the possibilty of time trials like the beetle races have; whilst also retaining the option to do them in their current state. All while removing the zones that have been brought up in other threads as disruptive to exploration. To me it seems anet tries to engage players in old content like JPs since daily JP is a thing as is daily activity. I think this would be a way of doing that outside of dailies and gives the JPs better repeatability, a bit more on par with other forgotten content like dungeons.

~~ ~~~~ ~~Regarding promoting improvement of player skill? this is more of an @Mungo Zen.9364

@Mungo Zen.9364 said:!>In general, I really like JP. I have completed all JP as intended multiple times, most before mounts came to be a thing (but I keep going back for fun). My comments below are thinking of future JP, not changing existing ones.

!> I am thinking of the Siren's Landing JP and Draconis Mons JP as being challenging JP that do have recall mechanics via checkpoints. These appear to be examples of Anet learning from prior JP like Ember Bay. However, those three JP have a higher challenge than most JP available before them and I would anticipate them being difficult for players regardless of the checkpoints; they require a certain level of skill to accomplish.

!> While the suggestions the OP presented do have merit, the skill level of the player in using the terrain and character physics is where the focus should be. What is the difference between a player dying and running back at Not So Secret JP or them falling and resetting on the JP closer than a WP? They save time but they still have to repeat part or all of the JP. It does give them the opportunity to learn more about the JP and JP skill in general but I question if it is a learning tool or a crutch.

!> The common complaints are JP are too hard, as OP pointed out "pixel perfect" is how hard some claim they are. What would these proposed changes do for changing the mentality of players trying the JP? A hard jump is a hard jump regardless. If I jump, fall and reset to the beginning of the puzzle or some arbitrary checkpoint, I still have to make that next jump and cannot proceed until I do.

!> In short, I believe that the OP suggestions promote repeated learning attempts at a single JP, while they do not change the difficulty of the JP, and that I approve of. However, as the difficulty doesn't change, that means that there will be a portion of the player base asking for nerfs to JP to match their skill level.

!> What is a way that the game could promote learning how to manipulate the physics of player and terrain, to increase player skill level in this area, and get better at the JP?So the idea is fail quicker and it was brought up in the previous thread I addressed at the begining of this one. The best way for someone to get better at something is to practice the parts they find difficult. If there is a long arduous road in getting to those parts, the process of practice becomes frustrating and off putting. Why is a game like Bennett Foddy's Getting Over It so irritating and prone to provoking rage quitting? Because it exploits this by doing the complete opposite of enabling quicker failing. If you fail in that game at one part you are finding hard, you are likely to loose a huge amount of progress if not be put back at the start.In regards to JPs, I've seen it many times in custom Guild Hall JPs, where if someone falls at a spot; they jump on their skyscale and go right back to where they fell and reattempt it. If they fall in NSS, they might try 5 more times and then call it a day or a month or possibly not ever return to it. The question you ask at the end about promoting learning; well I think that is first tacked by removing the frustration from the process and I believe the changes I've proposed will allow people the crutches they might need to engage in what is currently for them inaccessible practice. Obviously this will not appease everyone, and there will still be people with the "too hard" mentality but if you have a perfect fix that satisfiess everyone, I'm all ears for it.

~~ ~~~~ ~~Regarding Self Interest:

@"mindcircus.1506" said:!> The Community getting upset about not being able to trivialize content is not a reason to stop them from trivializing it. Imagine if the developers has said "oh well we cannot possibly stop AB Multiloot now, people would get upset" (and many people did). This is. after all, a method of people getting rewards (JP chests, daily completion, achievements) that they are not earning. Your proposed changes would be a perfect place to close this issue out, however you stop short either because you think (rightfully) that it would make your suggestions unpopular or it would put your tip money from being a "a daily JP porter" at risk.!> The absolute first thing Anet would need to do to make this content legitimate and devote more resources to things like increased rewards, challenge modes, time trials, is close down the way players are exploiting mesmer portals to cheese each other through the content. Then they would need to put an end to the mount skips that exist for just about every JP.!> The fact that you have suggested a system that would address these issues but have chosen to muddy the waters with some sort of facility to keep skipping players to rewards and achievements they have not earned removes pretty much all value from your suggestion to me.!> Seems just like another self-interested suggestion in a forum filled with them.

So the amount of tip money porters get is miniscule in comparison to other activities in game. Personally I don't ask for tips, I say thankyou when I get them, and I return the excess of 1g back to the player on the rare occasion someone gives more. Probably 90% of people don't tip. I also only really bother porting daily when there is only 1 other doing it. So again about 90% of the time I am just hanging around at the end interacting with people and helping those who ask for assistance in learning how to do the JP the intended way. The other place I've been tipped is NSS where I try to checkpoint people up the JP, not port them to the end. I essentially mentor them on the way up and teach them how to do some of the more annoying jumps or ones that require tricks like the gears on the way to the goggles which are just straight up broken. Again I don't ask for tips and anything that's excessive gets mailed back. Unless they insist and they keep sending it.I could do without the tip money, it's really not an income I rely on and I don't much care for having stuff in this game. Played on and off since 2012 on 2 differenct accounts and never once had a legendary lol. I just don't care for that stuff; I like developing skills, exploring and interacting; that's where my fun comes from in this game. It's that interaction part that I see best displayed at daily JPs where people are just there to get their daily done and are thankful for the people who stick around to expediate that process. I don't think there is much more difficulty in other dailies like interact with a vista or mine nodes in your home instance or guild hall that interacting with a mesmer portal becomes such an outlier and egrigous offender. I don't think the current rewards for JPs are anything to celebrate over either which is probably why their exploitability hasn't been a top priority for being adderssed. The restricted and time trial modes would return the integrity that you want and I also want, but I am trying to be diplomatic about it and strike some compromise that is beneficial for everyone. These devisive topics tend to lead to people being all one way or the other and the thread quickly degrades into ever louder shouting at each other that each sides respective stance is the correct one. That is not what I want, as Obi-Wan said "only a sith deals in absolutes". I think you'll find I'm more on your side than you know, but shutting down porting would be removing an emergent part of the game that fosters player interaction and does very little in the way of excessively rewarding the player. Also, how would you propose dealing with everyone who has already recieved the achievements and rewards? How would you distinguish between who completed the puzzles legitimately and who relied on assistance? Would you propose a complete wipe of jumping puzzle related achievements and ask everyone to go do them again, or just say from this date forth they have to be done legitimately while everyone else who got in before then can get away with it? That's why im saying add a second tier, with possible title as a reward, which is earned by doing them in restricted.