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@Gyro.9182 said:Repeating myself, if there are reasons (lack of money, the lead Mac developer is leaving Anet, ...) that prevent Anet from supporting the current client, I would understand that (thought I would, of course, still not be happy about it).can it be some pressure from powerful x64 fans in some management or side government?

Apple's new chipsetmagic that it drop support form all line, not only m1.

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@Master Ketsu.4569 said:Can't Apple use Wine?it can only on OLD Apple that already was normal native working client. You cant run wine on m1. The virtualization is obsolete on new cpu.

My laptop is running Kubu linux and can run GW2 with wine at about 50 fps which isn't the best but it's not bad. Vulkan drivers help.we happy that you run linux+wine and gw2

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@Gyro.9182 said:

@"Linken.6345" said:So if anet advertise that its avaliable on mac and then dont work on all type of macs people will accept that?I dont think so hence why they are pulling out.

If Anet advertised that it is available on
macOS/Intel
, but they are unable to provide a
macOS/M1
version, I would assume that (a) almost all Mac users will accept that (you will never reach 100% acceptance for
anything
, I assume), (b) it will not matter to most Mac users at the moment, © the current player base would simply be able to continue playing.Saying "we can't port it to a system
you and 99% of all current Mac users
are not actually using, so we will go a step further and kill the game that works on your machine, too" is a somewhat different message, isn't it? And that's the one Anet is sending.Repeating myself, if there are reasons (lack of money, the lead Mac developer is leaving Anet, ...) that prevent Anet from supporting the current client, I would understand that (thought I would, of course, still not be happy about it). But blaming Apple's new chipset
that has no bearing on the existing client
and the announcing "so we just kill it for everybody who is not affected by the new chip, and who could have continued using the game"...?

And then you would have the people that read, oh macOS great it works for my machine not knowing what intel means and then get mad at anet.

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@"Linken.6345" said:And then you would have the people that read, oh macOS great it works for my machine not knowing what intel means and then get mad at anet.I am sure one can spin things in any direction, if one really wants to. Does not mean it makes sense to do so.If Anet no longer wanted to support Windows 7, should they also stop the Windows client for Windows 10 (and 8), because some people are not aware which version of Windows they are running?As it is, all Mac users are to some extend "mad at Anet", I fail to see how that is better than your proposal.

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@"lare.5129" said:Guild Wars 2 Running on M1 MacBook Air Using Parallels Windows 10 ARMlooks it have great performance. It I set on my new GeForce same settings I have less fps ..

In this vid you keep constantly dropping below 15-20 fps (around 1:03 you dropped to 8 because you turned your camera around -stopped watching beyond this point) in an instance you're alone in. So no, you don't "have less fps on new geforce" LOL

I mean it's great you can play it on whatever you want to play it on. But if you're trying to make a competition out of it (again) for whatever reason, at least don't bend the facts.

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@"Linken.6345" said:And then you would have the people that read, oh macOS great it works for my machine not knowing what intel means and then get mad at anet.

If "what if someone doesn't understand system requirements and gets mad about it" was a show-stopper for game development, literally zero video games would be published.

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@"lare.5129" said:!!!! extra news:

Guild Wars 2 Running on M1 MacBook Air Using Parallels Windows 10 ARMlooks it have great performance. It I set on my new GeForce same settings I have less fps ..

Except anyone that is unbiased will not say it is "great performance". It is on lowest model limit and dips to ~12 FPS in an instanced DRM zone. The only way that you have less FPS on a "new Geforce" is if you don't have DX9 installed or your settings are way out of whack.

Also even before the announcement, GW2 runs better via Boot Camp than in the MacOS client.

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Apple doesn't appreciate software with 3rd party billing services. Apple doesn't appreciate software being available on their platforms that wasn't entirely made in Apple's extremely expensive development tools. Apple's new chips are good enough to justify clamping down on old x86-64 software. Apple plainly doesn't want you to be able to deal with ArenaNet, and they are seizing the opportunity to lock you out now that they have the "our ARM chips are good enough for general compute now" excuse. If you aren't happy with software unavailability on your Mac, sell it. You can buy an equivalently spec'd general purpose x86-64 machine brand new for your used Mac price. Being mad at ArenaNet over Apple's misanthropic view is pointless. This happening should not be a shock to Mac users. ArenaNet isn't in a position of folding at the first sign of resistance here, they are one of the longest holdouts who tried the hardest to make the relationship with Apple work. Apple doesn't want it to work, so it is never going to work. ArenaNet's mistake was thinking they could get through to Apple and they let this drag on too long.

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@lare.5129 said:

@"Infusion.7149" said:Except anyone that is unbiased will not say it is "great performance".for me it great. Currently on 2060 if preset same I get less.

That's statistically impossible unless your Intel CPU is ancient.M1 Mac using all 8 cores in Parallels gets a singlethreaded Cinebench score of 513 single thread in Windows 10 virtualized with 1833 points across all cores (versus 1520 single thread and 7794 in MacOS natively which can be partly attributed to OS optimizations and code paths). That's lower in Windows 10 than an Intel i7-4850HQ (only turbos to 3.5GHz) which scores 750 single thread and a performance hit of over two-thirds relative to native macOS.

From 2011 (before GW2 was launched) to 2013ish when the i7-4850HQ was released there has only been around 10-20% single threaded improvement from Sandy Bridge on 32nm to Haswell on 22nm (a node shrink and a FIVR power experiment). The only exception is if the application uses AVX2 instruction-sets which aren't present in Sandy Bridge. It wasn't until Kaby Lake on 14nm with DDR4 and higher clocks that there was a sizable performance gain on Intel chips ; until the Coffee Lake set of chips there were no mainstream mobile chips with more than 6 cores.

!

See also:Quick Apple M1 macOS reference points against Intel Tiger Lake and AMD Renoir Linux laptops by Michael Larabel. https://openbenchmarking.org/result/2012250-FI-2012032FI40


As far as native MacOS performance, read this review by notebookcheck in 2019 (https://www.notebookcheck.net/Apple-MacBook-Pro-16-2019-Laptop-Review-A-convincing-Core-i9-9880H-and-Radeon-Pro-5500M-powered-multimedia-laptop.445902.0.html#toc-gaming-on-macos-doable-but-not-recommended) :

We also looked at gaming performance on macOS in case you did not fancy running Boot Camp. In short, the experience is not as good as it is on Windows 10. While Planetary Annihilation: TITANS remains playable at maximum graphics and the display's native resolution, we would recommend running League of Legends at a slightly reduced resolution if you are an avid gamer. Unfortunately, we could not show the frame rates our unit achieved when playing League of Legends.

Conversely, the MacBook Pro 16 could only average 40 FPS in Fortnite at 1636x960 and maximum graphics. The game does a wonderful job of scaling though, so do not let the resolution put you off. Meanwhile, Planetary Annihilations ran at 60 FPS natively and at maximum graphics, as we implied earlier. We achieved 60 FPS while playing skirmish games with two computers, for reference.

Overall, we would recommend using Windows 10 if you are planning on gaming with the MacBook Pro 16. Doing so will not only deliver a better gaming experience than macOS offers as many games are optimised better for DirectX but also a wider library of games from which to choose.


@lare.5129 said:

@"Asgaeroth.6427" said:Could you rephrase that? I have no idea what you are trying to say.some time ago I buy new x86-64 laptop with itel cpu and geforce 2060. Now on aprox half of this price I can buy macbook air.And how I say
if
I set native rendering and same graphics options I have same fps as in m1 in Parallel

That's also impossible unless you bought a $2000+ PC which also manages to throttle with a RTX 2060 (a quintessential 1440p GPU) which means you didn't read reviews or do your own due diligence. The only Apple M1 computer below $1000 is the Mac Mini for $700 without the screen ; even with double that budget ($1500) there are quite a few computers you could have bought or built. If you look on noteb which I linked to someone else looking for PCs, there's notebooks that run this game 40+ FPS that are below $1000 , since it's CPU bound more or less anything with a discrete GPU that isn't a 15W constrained CPU is going to do the job.

In fact a laptop with i7-9750H + RTX 2060 was benchmarked this past year there: https://noteb.com/?content/review.php?/2020/03/13/acer-predator-helios-300-15-2019-ph315-52-review/FPS min = 21 , FPS average = 62 (model limit = highest , best appearance preset)

!

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@"Asgaeroth.6427" said:Apple doesn't appreciate software with 3rd party billing services.

… in the App Store. Most users aren't married to the App Store.

The tussle over Fortnite was about App Store billing structure, which is the same reason you can't buy Fortnite on Steam. (And the reason "how do we put Guild Wars 2 on Steam?" has been a months-long process for Anet even though just uploading a game to Steam takes like a single afternoon.)

You can install any software you want directly, or through a storefront like Steam, GOG, Epic Games Store, &c. without giving Apple a single cent of your money. The only obstacle is a single clicky box saying "hey, did you download this installer from a website you trust?"

@"Asgaeroth.6427" said:Apple plainly doesn't want you to be able to deal with ArenaNet, and they are seizing the opportunity to lock you out now that they have the "our ARM chips are good enough for general compute now" excuse.

They're not locking you out of anything, though. The OGL layer is still there. x86 binary translation is there. The forced 64-bit thing was annoying (why no legacy layer for that?) and the app-signing thing is annoying, but neither of these have had a visible impact on Anet's ability to provide a GW2 Mac client so far. If they want to take the same approach that Steam did where they just slap "This product is not compatible with Mac OS version blah blah" on the product page and call it a day, I wouldn't begrudge them that — I'm sure the end of the OS 10.x line is a big deal under the hood and it's okay if they don't have the resources to continually iterate on an old game.

I'm not here to defend a giant computer manufacturer, but you are absolutely reaching to try to paint a cost-cutting move as something they've been forced into by a hardware/OS roadmap that mostly affects new computers while we're talking about the needs of an existing customer base still playing their ten-year-old game.

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@ASP.8093 said:

@"Asgaeroth.6427" said:Apple doesn't appreciate software with 3rd party billing services.

… in the App Store. Most users aren't married to the App Store.

The tussle over Fortnite was about App Store billing structure, which is the same reason you can't buy Fortnite on Steam. (And the reason "how do we put Guild Wars 2 on Steam?" has been a months-long process for Anet even though just uploading a game to Steam takes like a single afternoon.)

You can install any software you want directly, or through a storefront like Steam, GOG,
Epic Games Store
, &c. without giving Apple a single cent of your money. The only obstacle is a single clicky box saying "hey, did you download this installer from a website you trust?"

@"Asgaeroth.6427" said:Apple plainly doesn't want you to be able to deal with ArenaNet, and they are seizing the opportunity to lock you out now that they have the "our ARM chips are good enough for general compute now" excuse.

They're not locking you out of anything, though. The OGL layer is still there. x86 binary translation is there. The forced 64-bit thing was annoying (why no legacy layer for that?) and the app-signing thing is annoying, but neither of these have had a visible impact on Anet's ability to provide a GW2 Mac client so far. If they want to take the same approach that Steam did where they just slap "This product is not compatible with Mac OS version blah blah" on the product page and call it a day, I wouldn't begrudge them that — I'm sure the end of the OS 10.x line is a big deal under the hood and it's okay if they don't have the resources to continually iterate on an old game.

I'm not here to defend a giant computer manufacturer, but you are absolutely reaching to try to paint a cost-cutting move as something they've been forced into by a hardware/OS roadmap that mostly affects
new computers
while we're talking about the needs of an existing customer base still playing their ten-year-old game.

There's more to it than the technical issues. If Apple doesn't think they can onboard you onto Apple Pay and sell you $2 million of development kit, they wont even respond to your emails. The Apple MO is to stonewall developers who aren't 100% in the program. They make it as difficult as possible to work with them because they know most studios are going to bend over backwards to get access to the Apple customers, you know, those people who pay $3000 for $750 hardware configurations because it has rounded bezels? Apple has a really good scam going and it is hard to wrap your mind around the horror of dealing with it until you've had to.

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@Asgaeroth.6427 said:There's more to it than the technical issues. If Apple doesn't think they can onboard you onto Apple Pay and sell you $2 million of development kit, they wont even respond to your emails. The Apple MO is to stonewall developers who aren't 100% in the program. They make it as difficult as possible to work with them because they know most studios are going to bend over backwards to get access to the Apple customers, you know, those people who pay $3000 for $750 hardware configurations because it has rounded bezels? Apple has a really good scam going and it is hard to wrap your mind around the horror of dealing with it until you've had to.

This has rather little bearing on an existing game that's basically in maintenance mode as far as the engine itself is concerned.

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@ASP.8093 said:

@"Asgaeroth.6427" said:There's more to it than the technical issues. If Apple doesn't think they can onboard you onto Apple Pay and sell you $2 million of development kit, they wont even respond to your emails. The Apple MO is to stonewall developers who aren't 100% in the program. They make it as difficult as possible to work with them because they know most studios are going to bend over backwards to get access to the Apple customers, you know, those people who pay $3000 for $750 hardware configurations because it has rounded bezels? Apple has a really good scam going and it is hard to wrap your mind around the horror of dealing with it until you've had to.

This has rather little bearing on an existing game that's basically in maintenance mode as far as the engine itself is concerned.

The age of the game and the limited ArenaNet development resources are why it has to go this way, not why it shouldn't go this way. With a broader and more realistic perspective, this is obvious and unavoidable. It's nice to live in a world where you can say "just do X thing and it's fine". The problems start when the people who actually have to do X thing live in reality, and the people who proposed X thing can't see the spectrum of problems that make X thing completely unrealistic.

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@Asgaeroth.6427 said:

@ASP.8093 said:

@Asgaeroth.6427 said:There's more to it than the technical issues. If Apple doesn't think they can onboard you onto Apple Pay and sell you $2 million of development kit, they wont even respond to your emails. The Apple MO is to stonewall developers who aren't 100% in the program. They make it as difficult as possible to work with them because they know most studios are going to bend over backwards to get access to the Apple customers, you know, those people who pay $3000 for $750 hardware configurations because it has rounded bezels? Apple has a really good scam going and it is hard to wrap your mind around the horror of dealing with it until you've had to.

This has rather little bearing on an existing game that's basically in maintenance mode as far as the engine itself is concerned.

The age of the game and the limited ArenaNet development resources are why it has to go this way, not why it shouldn't go this way. With a broader and more realistic perspective, this is obvious and unavoidable. It's nice to live in a world where you can say "just do X thing and it's fine". The problems start when the people who actually have to do X thing live in reality, and the people who proposed X thing can't see the spectrum of problems that make X thing completely unrealistic.

You have no greater insight into "the spectrum of problems that make X thing completely unrealistic" than anyone else here, you're throwing stuff at the wall and at least half of it very evidently doesn't fit the situation at hand.

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