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WvW Spawn bad design


nargilli.6987

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Yes there are servers in NA that do a "next level" spawncamping, one I directly experienced was a 2 days long spawn farm done by mag, thet took almost everything in the other side, keep, the 2 towers and camps all upgraded to T3, keep full of sieges to cover other open filed siege, and various zerg and roamer groups farming everyone spawning by the gate, they destroyed any siege in front of the gate but was impossible from a treb (just for example) to destroy the one was hittinghim from keep (I suppose maybe due to "higher ground" position of the one at keep) if we leave aside the ethic part of doing this (btw it's a war and every server choose how to waste time camping or wasting bags keeping spawning from the waypoint for no reason instead going somewere else) the problem i saw and i agree with the original post is that this is not balanced and surely open to be abused as it is now, my2c

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I don't think I've ever seen a coordinated, concerted map effort to block all three spawn exits simulateously, completely and relentlessly. I'm not saying you're exaggerating, I've just never seen it.

I was on DH a few years back and Mag spawn camped them for 3 days solid. All 3 exits. I've been on the other side with Mag and it's happened multiple times.

You're correct in saying it's mainly due to boredom and a poor matchup. What's also obvious is that you really don't relentlessly need to fling yourself, lemming-like, on to the campers.

Leaves a bad taste in the mouth frankly but children do like to hurt others on occasion.

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Any thoughts on possible solutions to deterring spawn camping? (thinking out loud.. would any of the below work? Issues/side-effects this might cause? Thoughts & feedbacks?)

  • Example scenario 1: Low-population on 1 side, Keep held by enemy for too long + no commander present for more than 'x' minutes:A. System initiates NPC Commander Siegerazer, it tags up, offering bonus buffs (such as Commanders' presence - # scales by player #s or other conditions/formula), the NPC can offer speed boosts? Lay down siege to take a keep back? or:B. If outnumbered on 1 side, system...spawns a giant super awesome drivable Mecha Siege Turtle at spawn area :p

  • Example scenario 2: Enemies camping a spawn non-stop (4 thieves, 10 guardians etc. or due to population imbalance):A. System apply de-buffs to spawn campers within the area after 'x' Minutes (examples: -200 toughness or stealth disabled + 'revealed')B. Elevate terrain for spawn area or add exit portals, enemy players can't see beyond portal (One way mirror, similar to GW1 Alliance battles?)

(Below: Design reference from GW1 Factions Alliance battles map Etnaran Keys: https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Etnaran_Keys

Full image: https://i.imgur.com/f2oqvrB.png

f2oqvrB.png

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@nargilli.6987 said:if you even try to use Champion Commander Siegecrusher he do not even try to take back the keep but do a wide path to try to reach one of the side tower.

A bit of a side-note but even Developer Cal said Siegeraiser should one-shot gates. I think he should be invulnerable, too. You had your fun capping all their shiz, now go and do something else!

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@Doo Lally.8594 said:

I don't think I've
ever
seen a coordinated, concerted map effort to block all three spawn exits simulateously, completely and relentlessly. I'm not saying you're exaggerating, I've just never seen it.

I was on DH a few years back and Mag spawn camped them for 3 days solid. All 3 exits. I've been on the other side with Mag and it's happened multiple times.

You're correct in saying it's mainly due to boredom and a poor matchup. What's also obvious is that you really don't relentlessly need to fling yourself, lemming-like, on to the campers.

Leaves a bad taste in the mouth frankly but children do like to hurt others on occasion.

@"Woop S.7851" said:Any thoughts on possible solutions to deterring spawn camping? (thinking out loud.. would any of the below work? Issues/side-effects this might cause? Thoughts & feedbacks?)
  • Example scenario 1:
    Low-population on 1 side, Keep held by enemy for too long + no commander present for more than 'x' minutes:A. System initiates
    , it tags up, offering bonus buffs (such as
    - # scales by player #s or other conditions/formula), the NPC can offer speed boosts? Lay down siege to take a keep back? or:B. If outnumbered on 1 side, system...spawns a giant super awesome drivable Mecha
    at spawn area :p
  • Example scenario 2:
    Enemies camping a spawn non-stop (4 thieves, 10 guardians etc. or due to population imbalance):A. System apply de-buffs to spawn campers within the area after 'x' Minutes (examples: -200 toughness or stealth disabled + '
    ')B. Elevate terrain for spawn area or add exit portals, enemy players can't see beyond portal (
    , similar to GW1 Alliance battles?)

(Below: Design reference from GW1 Factions
map Etnaran Keys:

Full image:

f2oqvrB.png

@Tuna Bandit.3786 said:Incorrect.Some servers love to bully others.I have whitnessed this behavior happening last and this week.Hours on end even.

They call it Spawn Camping or Bag Farming. The minute you step out of the save zone (determined is off) you are bombared by rangers, thiefs, from all 3 exits.They even tier up surrounding towers to have Watchtower on it, to seriously prevent anyone entering the map.

I myself simply see that happening and leave. I will never give such low life bullies the pleasure to kill constantly.

But saying it's not happening... open your eyes. Some servers are Notorious for doing it even.Not naming here though, not going into a dirt fight.

So, let me help here: there are maps other that eternal battlegrounds. The border lands work very well.

I feel bad that people keep walking into a death trap on the same map over and over and don’t seem to understand that there are other options, both within the map they are trying to enter ( 3 exits) and the other three maps. (Which each have three exits.)

Just trying to help some peeps out.

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Some people don't understand the meaning of spawn camped either. Have had people claiming I was spawn camping them by sitting in NE and NW alpine camps and the map not being home borderland map lol. Hard to explain to these types of players that its not spawn camping its just happening to be entertained by mindless zombies coming at me and immediately getting killed. However there is also that one guild of people that pretty much are bots with just a weapon to tag people with my problem with them is that since they don't have decent builds or have any armor or trinkets the npc's will double down them before I can hit them once. Then the headache if they are on your server but at the same time amusing because if someone drops something like DH traps it will kill about half of them instantly so if you are lagging any it will look like a whole blob of players died from running into a breeze with no enemies in sight. So its a rough era for WvW and hoping your allies can make it to an enemy without dying much less being spawn camped.

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Yeah, we're against Maguuma this week. Both CD and TC are taking a "go kitten yourself" approach to them by simply not playing on EBG. They have been the worst server to play against. If you don't play on EBG, they whine and throw a fit because they're bored. Meanwhile, we're having fun playing the other team on all the other BLs.

All they want to do is spawn camp and hump SMC. EBG's spawn is terrible, but that's why there's 3 other maps to play on.

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@"Bristingr.5034" said:Yeah, we're against Maguuma this week. Both CD and TC are taking a "go kitten yourself" approach to them by simply not playing on EBG. They have been the worst server to play against. If you don't play on EBG, they whine and throw a fit because they're bored. Meanwhile, we're having fun playing the other team on all the other BLs.

All they want to do is spawn camp and hump SMC. EBG's spawn is terrible, but that's why there's 3 other maps to play on.

Oh dear! I never thought staying around the spawning area to kill enemies is still a thing! I admit that the spawning points in Eternal Battlegrounds are terrible. Barely I have the journey in it. I often roam in the others. (P.S I like to encounter with enemy roamers and learn their builds, mechanics, abilities and skillplay most of the time)

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So basically there's this giant neon light sign that says "don't come here", and out of the 4 maps and 3 possible exits from each, you insist on going out that way. Not to mention that fighting at spawn gives you the biggest advantage possible (you can instantly come back) as well as pull people into the legendary defenders. If you're getting crushed when you have legendary defenders on your side, how do you stand a chance anywhere else?

I mean at this point, you have to ask, why wouldn't they farm those players? I mean you can excuse people that picked up the game yesterday, but falling for it over and over again? Especially Mag's EB. It's not like it's some giant secret. They basically are telling you upfront, and you're still walking into it.

If you can't handle this, then there's always pve.

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The 3 exits on EBG are not an argument, because spawn camping is usually a result of snowballing. This means you don't have any structure you can move to after you left the exit and it is quite eay to chase you down by the campers.

So the only real workaround (I don't call that solution, because being forced to leave the map to be able to enjoy some basic gameplay is not acceptable) is switching to a borderland. Unfortunately all borderlands are inferior in design to EBG. So it's no surprise, when people just log out and never come back.

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@KrHome.1920 said:The 3 exits on EBG are not an argument, because spawn camping is usually a result of snowballing. This means you don't have any structure you can move to after you left the exit and it is quite eay to chase you down by the campers.

Hmm. It’s too bad you can’t party up as 2 or 3 groups of 5 and leave one of the side exits and start to take other items from them.

So the only real workaround (I don't call that solution, because being forced to leave the map to be able to enjoy some basic gameplay is not acceptable) is switching to a borderland. Unfortunately all borderlands are inferior in design to EBG. So it's no surprise, when people just log out and never come back.

If you only like EBG, maybe you should transfer to Mag. Otherwise, either tank your matchup to avoid them, or, and here is a better solution, work with your server to own their BL as they won’t defend it at the expense of EBG and push them out of your tier.

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@"Strider Pj.2193" said:Hmm. It’s too bad you can’t party up as 2 or 3 groups of 5 and leave one of the side exits and start to take other items from them.What? Thats ridiculous. Small parties distracting the enemy?! Its 50 man and pushing straight forward or nothing!

Its the same when there is say a bridge and there are 2 zergs about to square off on either side. Your zerg has been loosing most of the evening, but you got lucky and managed to get behind the enemy zerg. You pop tornado and start the mayhem.

5 people are sent flying.

And 5 more.

And another 5.

By now the enemy zerg is dropping AoE on you trying to bring you down, half of them turning their backs on the friendly zerg. As you draw your last breath, thinking you did something good...

"Alright boys, stack up!"

"Wait for it"

"Lets do a fake push"

Friendly zerg promptly gets one pushed

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@KrHome.1920 said:The 3 exits on EBG are not an argument, because spawn camping is usually a result of snowballing. This means you don't have any structure you can move to after you left the exit and it is quite eay to chase you down by the campers.

So the only real workaround (I don't call that solution, because being forced to leave the map to be able to enjoy some basic gameplay is not acceptable) is switching to a borderland. Unfortunately all borderlands are inferior in design to EBG. So it's no surprise, when people just log out and never come back.

I mean, sure, Red BL kinda sucks, but if you're limiting yourself to 1/3 of WvW, that's not the game's problem either.

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@Dawdler.8521 said:

@"Strider Pj.2193" said:Hmm. It’s too bad you can’t party up as 2 or 3 groups of 5 and leave one of the side exits and start to take other items from them.What? Thats ridiculous. Small parties distracting the enemy?! Its 50 man and pushing straight forward or nothing!

Its the same when there is say a bridge and there are 2 zergs about to square off on either side. Your zerg has been loosing most of the evening, but you got lucky and managed to get behind the enemy zerg. You pop tornado and start the mayhem.

5 people are sent flying.

And 5 more.

And another 5.

By now the enemy zerg is dropping AoE on you trying to bring you down, half of them turning their backs on the friendly zerg. As you draw your last breath, thinking you did
something
good...

"Alright boys, stack up!"

"Wait for it"

"Lets do a fake push"

Friendly zerg promptly gets one pushed

Psshh. independent thought is overrated.

I can almost hear the commander in coms saying: Look at that (Ele/Engi) off tag. That’s what happens!

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@"Voltekka.2375" said:Yes, yes, bullying is a thing on overstacked "fight" servers. I can only suggest you dont feed them, ignore them, let em upgrade tour whole corner to T3 and play on another map. They get bored eventually and try to bully others, or log off.

wrong, the effective spawncamping with thief/rangers on all spawn exits as described (btw very rare sight in EU overall, cannot really remember one situation) is exactly only the numberly overstacked ppt servers ... fighting based group won't spawncamp normally, unless u flood blobsize out of spawn continously - they might consider farming bags then...

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@Strider Pj.2193 said:

@"KrHome.1920" said:The 3 exits on EBG are not an argument, because spawn camping is usually a result of snowballing. This means you don't have any structure you can move to after you left the exit and it is quite eay to chase you down by the campers.

Hmm. It’s too bad you can’t party up as 2 or 3 groups of 5 and leave one of the side exits and start to take other items from them.

So the only real workaround (I don't call that solution, because being forced to leave the map to be able to enjoy some basic gameplay is not acceptable) is switching to a borderland. Unfortunately all borderlands are inferior in design to EBG. So it's no surprise, when people just log out and never come back.

If you only like EBG, maybe you should transfer to Mag. Otherwise, either tank your matchup to avoid them, or, and here is a better solution, work with your server to own their BL as they won’t defend it at the expense of EBG and push them out of your tier.

This. It's literally what CD and TC have been doing. Don't bother fighting them, don't give them what they want, just ignore this map and fight each other on the other BLs, and/or play PvP/PvE.EqrhPwk.png

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ow I myself wont stay on a map that is spawn camped by a bully server, no way.I do, however hold such servers responsible for the deminish of WvW.They chase away new players, and scream the loudest that WvW is boring and dying.

Look, I am not arguing that there are 3 other maps to play on. I myself love Red BL due to the terrain deminishing the advantage of blobs vs roamers.I am just saying this type of basement kiddie bullying should be delt with.

How can they prevent anyone from leaving?

  1. They put TONS upon TONS of siege down from the keep to the very edge,but just out of reach of anything you can build
  2. Anything you build is destroyed IMMEDIATLY
  3. they heavily protect the 2 flanking towers and put Watchtower on them the minute it is available to see everything
  4. Anyone trying to escape and caught by the 2 watchtowers is jumped upon with great force (average 10+ on 1 player) and laughed at

Spawn Camping to this level is due to the poor design of EBG. There are 3 exits yes, but not much room to manouvre around.Unlike the Borderlands where the closest towers are far enough away to sneak around them without being caught by watchtower mechanics.I can get to a camp without being marked by a watchtower or sentry on any of the BLs from any of the spawn points.I can NOT do that on EBG from either Blue or Green corner and only can get to Speldan's avoiding watchtower on Mendon's by taking the most northern route.

These are not fight servers, The minute you are caught by a sentry or watchtower you are jumped upon by 10 players.They are not looking for an evenly matched fight, they are looking for easy bags and a false sence of superiority

"Look how badass we are, killing that player with the 10+ of us!! Woot!!! "

And those are in general the same people screaming and crying that WvW is dying,And why you think it is dying? Ow wait, That might be a too difficult question for you.

I don't feed spawncamping bullies and stay clear of servers known to do so.I also protest if our side does it, although if they manage to do that against a server that does it all the time, I really cannot blame them... but please don't be part of the problem...

just my 2 cents... Not expecting any change from Anet to begin with.

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@"Strider Pj.2193" said:So, let me help here: there are maps other that eternal battlegrounds. The border lands work very well.I feel bad that people keep walking into a death trap on the same map over and over and don’t seem to understand that there are other options, both within the map they are trying to enter ( 3 exits) and the other three maps. (Which each have three exits.)

Thanks! Every bit of info helps! =)Would the below work to counter-balance such scenarios? (EBG as an map example)

**EBG UI/UX Triggers:

  • After entering EB (1st time): minimap ping/flash for all 3 exits for player
  • if: player leaving spawn area alone, prompt/alert players with popup warning of venturing alone (borrow popup dialogue box from Strike missions or DRM)
  • Triggered first time joining map or when crossing the front-gate exit:

wUIwNVJ.png

  • Prompt/motivate players teaming up before existing spawn area
  • Currently missing automated grouping find feature (can pop-up right away after entering map);
  • Add exit door portal (similar to the glowing doors used to enter a keep)

Timer-gated Triggers to counter spawn camping:

  • Unlike EOTM running 4 hour match reset at intervals, EBG runs 24/7 with match ongoing throughout the week, if staying with this design:
  • Need timer triggered intervention functions (similar to board games like chess - it should not be 1 person's turn for a week 24/7)
  • Event triggers: based on battle conditions (Is Red dominating team Blue at spawn? Range? For how long? Red player #s vs. Blue, 10:1 ratio? etc.)
  • Example: Players given spawn point specific buffs (+200 toughness etc.), similar to Objective Auras, can be triggered alongside 'outnumbered', if both buffs lasts 15-minutes (5 x 3 warscore) or more, trigger the following:- Apply -200 Toughness/vitality debuff for spawn campers in an area near spawn exit choke- Apply 'revealed' within an area near front exit choke- Remove downed state, apply defeated or instant death to enemy players within a radius of spawn area

What do you think? Comments, thoughts, concerns? :)

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@"Bristingr.5034" said:This.EqrhPwk.pngYikes, that looks...very colorful :3

EB Terrain flow analysis/solutions:

  • Red + Blue spawn has lower terrain elevation to Keep
  • Only Green spawn (bottom left corner - water area) has higher elevation compared to keep, not sure why
  • Distance from spawn > keep > camps uneven (example: alt-route distance from blue spawn at bottom right corner is very long if a player wanted to reach supply camp)
  • Barriers (high walls) placed right outside of spawn seems to form chokes (funnels respawned players, opposite of intended purpose?)
  • No fog of war present at spawn area (1-sided mirror)
  • Triangle/Diamond design theory (from competitive board games) not present on map for balanced 3-way competition (from time/distance in reaching an objective, to walls/barricades, to proper alternative routing from spawn due to 1-sided dominance)
  • Sternhalma (3 players +) uses this, while Go and Chess uses square and lines (2-players):

k0CoeBl.png

  • Examples of this exists in EOTM: has 4-hour match reset intervals, instanced, hot-join enabled, uses the triangle design theory:

gpPuCM8.png

  • GW1 Alliance battles uses the Triangle/diamond movement flow as well + portals (to balance both sides' travel time, flow, player movement)

73u78Lx.png

  • Missing synchronized group spawn timer (5-10 seconds) like in GW1 Alliance Battles, 4-5 players respawn together, higher chance to push out of spawn against say: 4 camping thieves if roaming, GW1 example:

6stG3VQ.png

Comments? Thoughts? :)

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I will at least confirm this happens alot in NA, especially on T1.

Certain servers will first steamroll all your towers and your keep, then finally they'll build siege all around your spawn entries and camp with small parties of 5-6 players, with the main zerg near the keep just in case you succeed at a push.

You can tell its intentional because they'll often build Shield Generators to defend the siege and change the players builds to have as many pulls as possible so they can farm anyone who tries to run back to the spawn.

However, the point of this isn't to spawn camp, but to ensure they can escort yaks to the keep from all sides to upgrade it. Redacted especially seems to take pride and joy in having SMC and at least one enemy keep T3 at all times on EBG.

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@"Hannelore.8153" said:However, the point of this isn't to spawn camp, but to ensure they can escort yaks to the keep from all sides to upgrade it. Redacted especially seems to take pride and joy in having SMC and at least on enemy keep T3 at all times on EBG.Which really just emphesize many things other than getting out of spawn - T3 still gives way to much passive PPT, maintaining "enemy" objectives should be harder and we still need better/cheaper siege to attack objectives with smaller groups (will trebuchet ever get the damage/cost pass that catapults did?).

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