Champions Part 2 [lore discussion]

[EdwinLi.1284]

The new Trailer is released and we a glimps into a bit of the reasons and mind set of Jormag's minions and beliefs. Along with a glimps of this war turning into a three way war.

Jormag's minions are following the belief of preserving the world in Ice so it remains protected as was suspected in past discussions and ingame dialogue. It will preserve everything exactly the way they are forever in Ice but nothing will ever change for eternity. It is Jormag's ideal world where everything is protected and everything remains the same forever just like being frozen in Ice.

What do you think about recent upcoming developments, where it may go, and why it may happen?

[Zola.6197]

An accelerated story is to be expected, but I did not anticipate Jormag becoming hostile toward us this soon. I figured the ruse of a 'truce' would be drawn out till chapter 3 or 4, but I suppose we don't have that kind of time.

Do Svanir sometimes cover themselves in ice, or is that only for those corrupted into Icebrood? I thought for a moment perhaps these are a rogue faction of Svanir going against our truce, but that seems unlikely. I could see them being upset about Jormag selecting a charr champion instead of someone from the Sons of Svanir, but I don't think corrupted Icebrood would be able to go against Jormag's wishes.

There is a prominent Svanir in the trailer not covered in ice though. I wonder if this could be another champion of Jormag gifted with more freedom than the average Icebrood.

[Chaos.7614]

@"EdwinLi.1284" said:The new Trailer is released and we a glimps into a bit of the reasons and mind set of Jormag's minions and beliefs. Along with a glimps of this war turning into a three way war.Jormag's minions are following the belief of preserving the world in Ice so it remains protected as was suspected in past discussions and ingame dialogue. It will preserve everything exactly the way they are forever in Ice but nothing will ever change for eternity. It is Jormag's ideal world where everything is protected and everything remains the same forever just like being frozen in Ice.

I never really bought into this being a three-way war; Jormag was never really on our side since it's idea of preserving the world is covering it in ice and having everything stagnate. Primordus is the polar opposite extreme of plunging everything into chaos and destroying everything until it consumes enough magic to sleep again. Obviously, neither are good endpoints for Tyria and we're just caught in the crossfire - they're both enemies in the end.

What do you think about recent upcoming developments, where it may go, and why it may happen?

The "truce" we have with Jormag really only applies to when we engage in the more powerful and immediate threat of destroyers, so it's not a permanent peace - this means we're on a timer for figuring out how to stabilize the balance of magic when a dragon is destroyed. The nature of this fight means that one dragon or the other is going to die, or at least weaken and release large amounts of magic back into the world. I think that our journey to Cantha is going to be about finding a way to harness dragon energy and recirculate it, essentially finding replacements for the dragons. The EoD trailer said that "[mortals] built new lives upon the very thing that sought to end theirs", which I think is a reference to the Deep Sea Dragon.

It's a bit far-fetched, but I think that the Empire of the Dragon has found a way to control the Deep Sea Dragon/harness its energy/make it benevolent, and the reason they've been so isolationist aside from Zhaitan's rise is because they were waiting for the right time to take over the rest of Tyria and Elona. The rest of the world has had to deal with dragons rising and thus expend their energy opposing them, while the Empire of the Dragon continues to use the DSD's power to strengthen its military. This would hold a bit more weight if the rulers of Cantha have upheld Emperor Usoku's isolationist and Canthan supremacy philosophy.

I wouldn't be surprised if we saw our arrival in Cantha begin with a massive destroyer assault on the southern aspect of Cantha, using the chaos to infiltrate our way into Kaineng City and finding the exact mechanism of how the Empire is harnessing dragon energy so we could apply that to making beings capable of circulating magic on a large-scale.

[draxynnic.3719]

Jormag was showing pretty clear signs of being Not Really Our Friend to anyone who's had experience with abusive relationships (noting that this does not need to mean abusive "romantic" relationships).

Regarding Cantha - the DSD connection is possible, but I've generally thought the link might simply be "we need more dragons to replace the Elder Dragons, Cantha has/had dragons that are friendly to mortals.

[EdwinLi.1284]

@Chaos.7614 said:

@"EdwinLi.1284" said:The new Trailer is released and we a glimps into a bit of the reasons and mind set of Jormag's minions and beliefs. Along with a glimps of this war turning into a three way war.Jormag's minions are following the belief of preserving the world in Ice so it remains protected as was suspected in past discussions and ingame dialogue. It will preserve everything exactly the way they are forever in Ice but nothing will ever change for eternity. It is Jormag's ideal world where everything is protected and everything remains the same forever just like being frozen in Ice.

I never really bought into this being a three-way war; Jormag was never really on our side since it's idea of preserving the world is covering it in ice and having everything stagnate. Primordus is the polar opposite extreme of plunging everything into chaos and destroying everything until it consumes enough magic to sleep again. Obviously, neither are good endpoints for Tyria and we're just caught in the crossfire - they're both enemies in the end.

What do you think about recent upcoming developments, where it may go, and why it may happen?

The "truce" we have with Jormag really only applies to when we engage in the more powerful and immediate threat of destroyers, so it's not a permanent peace - this means we're on a timer for figuring out how to stabilize the balance of magic when a dragon is destroyed. The nature of this fight means that one dragon or the other is going to die, or at least weaken and release large amounts of magic back into the world. I think that our journey to Cantha is going to be about finding a way to harness dragon energy and recirculate it, essentially finding replacements for the dragons. The EoD trailer said that "[mortals] built new lives upon the very thing that sought to end theirs", which I think is a reference to the Deep Sea Dragon.

It's a bit far-fetched, but I think that the Empire of the Dragon has found a way to control the Deep Sea Dragon/harness its energy/make it benevolent, and the reason they've been so isolationist aside from Zhaitan's rise is because they were waiting for the right time to take over the rest of Tyria and Elona. The rest of the world has had to deal with dragons rising and thus expend their energy opposing them, while the Empire of the Dragon continues to use the DSD's power to strengthen its military. This would hold a bit more weight if the rulers of Cantha have upheld Emperor Usoku's isolationist and Canthan supremacy philosophy.

I wouldn't be surprised if we saw our arrival in Cantha begin with a massive destroyer assault on the southern aspect of Cantha, using the chaos to infiltrate our way into Kaineng City and finding the exact mechanism of how the Empire is harnessing dragon energy so we could apply that to making beings capable of circulating magic on a large-scale.

Well in my eyes it is a three way way but simply developed into it due to Primordus joining in the middle of the already on going war between the Commander/Pact/Alliance vs Jormag.

The War started simply started with the Commander/Pact/Alliance vs Jormag but then Primordus and his minions joined right after Jormag's awakening.

I suspect for a while the Truce was Jormag's way to seeing who can be tricked into joining her due to conflicting ideals of trusting Jormag or not to trust her due to different groups having different opinions towards Primordus joining the conflict.

@"draxynnic.3719" said:Jormag was showing pretty clear signs of being Not Really Our Friend to anyone who's had experience with abusive relationships (noting that this does not need to mean abusive "romantic" relationships).

Regarding Cantha - the DSD connection is possible, but I've generally thought the link might simply be "we need more dragons to replace the Elder Dragons, Cantha has/had dragons that are friendly to mortals.

However, in a way she does not really lie about what she promise to give them but the promise is only twisted as a result.

It is like making a deal with the Devil, the Devil will give you what you want but your soul is now his in return. The Son of Svanir were very simple in their demands being for them to have more power thus Jormag gave them more power as promised. However, we also see more complicated forms of desires Jormags seek to keep such as with Ryland being to be recognized and given what he believe his right due to all his hard work which it is given to him by making him the Champion and leader of the Icebroods.

There is also Olar who we killed in Episode 1 where he is promised that he will never be abandoned again if he joined Jormag's forces and he got what he wanted being now a member of a group who will never abandon him. However, he must now serve Jormag in return.

[draxynnic.3719]

Lying isn't the only way someone can be abusive.

For instance, what really tipped me off is Jormag's discussion with Aurene in the first instance. They're telling her that mortals can't help her, that what she's been trying to accomplish is a fantasy, and that only with Jormag can she reach her full potential. That's a pretty blatant isolating technique.

I've gone into some more detail here. (So glad I got that up BEFORE the teaser, if only by a day.)

[Hypnowulf.7403]

I have raised awareness of this elsewhere but I will do so here too, succinctly, for the sake of notice. Where is the Frost legion? All is not as it seems.

[Fueki.4753]

I can only see two plausible ways for the story to go:1) Jormag outright "betrays" the truce (which never actually existed to begin with).Everyone will be "surprised".

2) It'll be a situation where Jormag tells the Svanir to attack us and then tells use that they did it on their own volition.And the brain-dead commander and followers will belief Jormag.

At this point, I don't think Arenanet can salvage Season 5 into anything even resembling an almost-decent story.

[Zola.6197]

@"Fueki.4753" said:I can only see two plausible ways for the story to go:1) Jormag outright "betrays" the truce (which never actually existed to begin with).Everyone will be "surprised".

2) It'll be a situation where Jormag tells the Svanir to attack us and then tells use that they did it on their own volition.And the brain-dead commander and followers will belief Jormag.

At this point, I don't think Arenanet can salvage Season 5 into anything even resembling an almost-decent story.

This is my fear. The current interactions with Jormag seem to require the Commander and Co. to be dumbed down. I think it'll come down to 'persuasion magic' in the end, so it's technically not our fault we were gullible because we, along with Aurene, were being subtly influenced by Jormag's magical domain. In the past we've usually had some indication people are being influenced by Jormag though, or at least Jormag via Drakkar. If the resolution is 'we made a mistake' it's going to have to be perfectly written and executed with all the proper reasoning and evidence, or else I'll be so disappointed and upset. I am still not over Jormag telling us the balance is fake and no one making a peep. The only excusable explanation is magical manipulation, and even that feels like a weak argument, though one I could accept with proper build-up and explanation.

Something GW2 devs seem to do a lot is leave things vague in game, and then 'confirm' or explain things in dev talks, which is... bad. These things should be clear in the context of the game.

[EdwinLi.1284]

@"Svennis.3852" said:

@"Fueki.4753" said:I can only see two plausible ways for the story to go:1) Jormag outright "betrays" the truce (which never actually existed to begin with).Everyone will be "surprised".

2) It'll be a situation where Jormag tells the Svanir to attack us and then tells use that they did it on their own volition.And the brain-dead commander and followers will belief Jormag.

At this point, I don't think Arenanet can salvage Season 5 into anything even resembling an almost-decent story.

This is my fear. The current interactions with Jormag seem to require the Commander and Co. to be dumbed down. I

think

it'll come down to 'persuasion magic' in the end, so it's technically not our fault we were gullible because we, along with Aurene, were being subtly influenced by Jormag's magical domain. In the past we've usually had some indication people are being influenced by Jormag though, or at least Jormag via Drakkar. If the resolution is 'we made a mistake' it's going to have to be perfectly written and executed with all the proper reasoning and evidence, or else I'll be so disappointed and upset. I am still not over Jormag telling us the balance is fake and no one making a peep. The only excusable explanation is magical manipulation, and even that feels like a weak argument, though one I

could

accept with proper build-up and explanation.

Something GW2 devs seem to do a lot is leave things vague in game, and then 'confirm' or explain things in dev talks, which is... bad. These things should be clear in the context of the game.

Well magical influence of a person's thoughts and desires have been Jormag's thing since Icebrood Saga began. We see it in episode 1 and episode 2 as simply whispers that slowly leaves words of doubt and temptation. The stronger the voice gets the weaker the will the person Jormag whispers to is but it is still easy to tell that voice is not their own but another being's voice so people could resist it willingly. However, that is during a time Jormag is still sleeping and that means the temptation magic used may have been very weak despite its strong influence during that time.

Now Jormag is awake, it is possible she can use it to a point that people may not hear whispers of another being trying to tempt them but hear voices of themselves thus they think they are thinking these things but it is actually a fake voice that sounds like themselves to trick them into thinking they are thinking these things.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@"Svennis.3852" said:An accelerated story is to be expected, but I did not anticipate Jormag becoming hostile toward us this soon. I figured the ruse of a 'truce' would be drawn out till chapter 3 or 4, but I suppose we don't have that kind of time.

I'm not sure this is Jormag. The leader seems to be a non-corrupted Son of Svanir, so he's acting independently. The icebrood norn are established as pretty much mindless, so it following another of power makes sense. Jormag is largely in the "does not care" / apathetic area when it comes to killing individuals and cares more about preserving the world itself, so it probably doesn't care how the free willed followers do things so long as the end goal is met.

@"Svennis.3852" said:Do Svanir sometimes cover themselves in ice, or is that only for those corrupted into Icebrood? I thought for a moment perhaps these are a rogue faction of Svanir going against our truce, but that seems unlikely. I could see them being upset about Jormag selecting a charr champion instead of someone from the Sons of Svanir, but I don't think corrupted Icebrood would be able to go against Jormag's wishes.Only the corrupted become Icebrood. A short reference would be:

• "Son of Svanir" = not corrupted
• "Svanir" = corrupted

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

So part 1 gave us the Crystal Bloom, and Seraph, allied factions.Part 2 is giving us the Stone Dwarves, and based on the release page's comment about "floating" the Exalted.Part 3 looks like its giving us the Tengu, Skritt, and a 3rd one... possibly Kodan? based on the trailer for part 1.

Also, given that one of the new DRMs is located in Snowden Drifts, I wouldn't be surprised if they include the ruined Owl lodge in it, and we got some more info about Owl's return in it.

[PseudoNewb.5468]

@"Svennis.3852" said:An accelerated story is to be expected, but I did not anticipate Jormag becoming hostile toward us this soon. I figured the ruse of a 'truce' would be drawn out till chapter 3 or 4, but I suppose we don't have that kind of time.

This chapter is titled "Power". Which is sorta Jormag's thing and means of persuasion so far. From that reasoning, I though it was kind of obvious that this chapter would focus on Jormag. Jormag is not friendly, and Jormag's power, has only one use, to crush and convert mortals. So getting assaulted by it seems most likely. The next chapter is "Balance" which is definitely something related to Aurene. I don't think we will fight Aurene, that would be a bit odd, but the Commander's patience with Aurenes aloofness is wearing thing, so some kind of reckoning might occur there. So we will have a chapter on Primordus, Jormag, and Aurene. The final chapter is "Judgement" and should be the finale... but with EOD, I suspect it will be more or less a plot bridge to Cantha (waves to season 2 final episode). Then there is the last known (unknown) dragon. Going into EOD I would expect all the dragons to have been introduced before being sent off into obsolescence, so I suspect the chapter might finally pull back the curtain on that thing... Raveling that thing might just make all these DRMs worth it.

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:I'm not sure this is Jormag. The leader seems to be a non-corrupted Son of Svanir, so he's acting independently. The icebrood norn are established as pretty much mindless, so it following another of power makes sense. Jormag is largely in the "does not care" / apathetic area when it comes to killing individuals and cares more about preserving the world itself, so it probably doesn't care how the free willed followers do things so long as the end goal is met.

Can the Son's of Svanir summon a cold blast that completely freezes the area and create free standing ice structures. All without at least the blessing of Jormag? The trailer shows Mantle's Breach and large parts of Lake Doric completely frozen over. Also Divinity's Reach defenses are active in the map too. Jormag seems to have begun assaulting the rest of Tyria bringing worse than Shiverpeaks weather down the mountains and across the region. Freezing Divinity's Reach is hostile regardless of how much Jormag says it wants to be nice.

[draxynnic.3719]

@"Svennis.3852" said:

@"Fueki.4753" said:I can only see two plausible ways for the story to go:1) Jormag outright "betrays" the truce (which never actually existed to begin with).Everyone will be "surprised".

2) It'll be a situation where Jormag tells the Svanir to attack us and then tells use that they did it on their own volition.And the brain-dead commander and followers will belief Jormag.

At this point, I don't think Arenanet can salvage Season 5 into anything even resembling an almost-decent story.

This is my fear. The current interactions with Jormag seem to require the Commander and Co. to be dumbed down. I

think

it'll come down to 'persuasion magic' in the end, so it's technically not our fault we were gullible because we, along with Aurene, were being subtly influenced by Jormag's magical domain. In the past we've usually had some indication people are being influenced by Jormag though, or at least Jormag via Drakkar. If the resolution is 'we made a mistake' it's going to have to be perfectly written and executed with all the proper reasoning and evidence, or else I'll be so disappointed and upset. I am still not over Jormag telling us the balance is fake and no one making a peep. The only excusable explanation is magical manipulation, and even that feels like a weak argument, though one I

could

accept with proper build-up and explanation.

Something GW2 devs seem to do a lot is leave things vague in game, and then 'confirm' or explain things in dev talks, which is... bad. These things should be clear in the context of the game.

I don't think we're likely to see the Commander buy in to what Jormag is saying here. The Commander has been pretty consistently supportive of Braham in previous parts of the Icebrood Saga, and was pretty sceptical of Ryland, his relationship to Jormag, and the Frost Legion in "Truce". I don't think it's going to be the Commander being the gullible one here - if nothing else, the Commander is keeping in mind the prophecy involving Braham and expecting it to come to a head sometime.

The bigger potential problem is that Jormag is clearly getting to some of the others. With that said, though, the asura seem to have been the only ones who have really bought in so far. Caithe is polite with Ryland, but sceptical, and starts pushing back harder when Ryland starts gaslighting her and the Commander - given her past experience with Faolain, she possibly recognised what Ryland was doing.

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

@"draxynnic.3719" said:I don't think we're likely to see the Commander buy in to what Jormag is saying here. The Commander has been pretty consistently supportive of Braham in previous parts of the Icebrood Saga, and was pretty sceptical of Ryland, his relationship to Jormag, and the Frost Legion in "Truce". I don't think it's going to be the Commander being the gullible one here - if nothing else, the Commander is keeping in mind the prophecy involving Braham and expecting it to come to a head sometime.This. The Commander hasn't ever bought into Jormag's BS this whole Saga, and I don't see them doing it now.Even back in episode 2 when Braham, Rytlock, and Crecia, fell under the Whisper's power it was the Commander who fought it.

[Fueki.4753]

@"draxynnic.3719" said:The Commander has been pretty consistently supportive of Braham in previous parts of the Icebrood Saga, and was pretty sceptical of Ryland, his relationship to Jormag, and the Frost Legion in "Truce". I don't think it's going to be the Commander being the gullible one here - if nothing else, the Commander is keeping in mind the prophecy involving Braham and expecting it to come to a head sometime.The commander didn't smash Ryland to pieces as soon as possible.To me, that's far more than enough of an indicator that the commander is buying into Jormag's story.

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

@Fueki.4753 said:The commander didn't smash Ryland to pieces as soon as possible.To me, that's far more than enough of an indicator that the commander is buying into Jormag's story.Not being a psychopath who just kills everything on sight doesn't mean your buying into anything.

[Fueki.4753]

@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

@Fueki.4753 said:The commander didn't smash Ryland to pieces as soon as possible.To me, that's far more than enough of an indicator that the commander is buying into Jormag's story.Not being a psychopath who just kills everything on sight doesn't mean your buying into anything.He's a non-Aurene Dragon Champion, thus a big danger to Tyria.Despite what Jormag says, it does not care for Tyria's safety.There is literally no benefit in allowing Ryland to continue existing, but too many possible detriments.The commander ought to know that.

That is, Arenanet pulls something that unrealistically and unreasonably makes Jormag a good dragon, which would shatter the last remnants of cohesive story-telling. And in doing so, Arenanet would make a literal joke of the entire story.

[hugo.4705]

@draxynnic.3719 said:

@"Svennis.3852" said:

@"Fueki.4753" said:I can only see two plausible ways for the story to go:1) Jormag outright "betrays" the truce (which never actually existed to begin with).Everyone will be "surprised".

2) It'll be a situation where Jormag tells the Svanir to attack us and then tells use that they did it on their own volition.And the brain-dead commander and followers will belief Jormag.

At this point, I don't think Arenanet can salvage Season 5 into anything even resembling an almost-decent story.

This is my fear. The current interactions with Jormag seem to require the Commander and Co. to be dumbed down. I

think

it'll come down to 'persuasion magic' in the end, so it's technically not our fault we were gullible because we, along with Aurene, were being subtly influenced by Jormag's magical domain. In the past we've usually had some indication people are being influenced by Jormag though, or at least Jormag via Drakkar. If the resolution is 'we made a mistake' it's going to have to be perfectly written and executed with all the proper reasoning and evidence, or else I'll be so disappointed and upset. I am still not over Jormag telling us the balance is fake and no one making a peep. The only excusable explanation is magical manipulation, and even that feels like a weak argument, though one I

could

accept with proper build-up and explanation.

Something GW2 devs seem to do a lot is leave things vague in game, and then 'confirm' or explain things in dev talks, which is... bad. These things should be clear in the context of the game.

I don't think we're likely to see the Commander buy in to what Jormag is saying here. The Commander has been pretty consistently supportive of Braham in previous parts of the Icebrood Saga, and was pretty sceptical of Ryland, his relationship to Jormag, and the Frost Legion in "Truce". I don't think it's going to be the Commander being the gullible one here - if nothing else, the Commander is keeping in mind the prophecy involving Braham and expecting it to come to a head

sometime.

The bigger potential problem is that Jormag is clearly getting to some of the

others

. With that said, though, the asura seem to have been the only ones who have really bought in so far. Caithe is polite with Ryland, but sceptical, and starts pushing back harder when Ryland starts gaslighting her and the Commander - given her past experience with Faolain, she possibly recognised what Ryland was doing.

Dunno about the asura, maybe taimi, but if you see the end of the dock instance the council or haia said that asura are enough strong to defend themselves but she thanks about the gesture and alliance. To me is that tjey discussed, but asura stay independant and don't really made a traty or anything with ryland. In the first instance too, only three councillors, what about opinions of others?Seeing that asura got nuked by primordius underground because they were confident, don't see why the story wouldn't repeat itself.The dialogue don't really hint as alliance, it would have ended more like "you proven to be worthy and a correct ace in the hand for what is upcoming, the alliance is concluded, you and your troops are free to patrol around" it's the opposite in the in game dialogue.

I'm worried for taimi that seems pro jormag and said skrittshit in drm metrica, gorrik seems to have it's head with rytlock and braham and commander that are against/not trusting jormag. Dunno about jora, marjory, kasmeer, canach, but don't think they like jormag either.

[draxynnic.3719]

@Fueki.4753 said:

@draxynnic.3719 said:The Commander has been pretty consistently supportive of Braham in previous parts of the Icebrood Saga, and was pretty sceptical of Ryland, his relationship to Jormag, and the Frost Legion in "Truce". I don't think it's going to be the Commander being the gullible one here - if nothing else, the Commander is keeping in mind the prophecy involving Braham and expecting it to come to a head

sometime.

The commander didn't smash Ryland to pieces as soon as possible.To me, that's far more than enough of an indicator that the commander is buying into Jormag's story.

There's a wide spectrum between killing someone at the first reasonable opportunity and believing everything they say.

At the moment, I think the Commander's attitude is "the enemy's enemy is my enemy's enemy." I don't think the Commander has any reasonable expectation of an outcome that doesn't involve bringing Jormag down, but if Jormag can be made to help in fighting Primordus at least a little before it becomes a three-way war, that's better than precipitating the three-way war right away. Attacking Ryland at the first opportunity would essentially be a declaration of war, at a point where there's little benefit to doing so except perhaps deny Jormag some tactical insight.

The Commander has been sceptical of Ryland in all their discussions, and even if the Commander was willing to declare war right away, attacking Ryland in Rata Sum when he was there as the Arcane Council's guest would probably have just got the Commander arrested, and doing so in Brisban Wildlands may have been the distraction that led to destroyers (or Frost Legion reinforcements) winning there. Ryland hightailed out of there pretty quickly (via portal) after the region was secured.

@hugo.4705 said:

@draxynnic.3719 said:

@"Svennis.3852" said:

@Fueki.4753 said:I can only see two plausible ways for the story to go:1) Jormag outright "betrays" the truce (which never actually existed to begin with).Everyone will be "surprised".

2) It'll be a situation where Jormag tells the Svanir to attack us and then tells use that they did it on their own volition.And the brain-dead commander and followers will belief Jormag.

At this point, I don't think Arenanet can salvage Season 5 into anything even resembling an almost-decent story.

This is my fear. The current interactions with Jormag seem to require the Commander and Co. to be dumbed down. I

think

it'll come down to 'persuasion magic' in the end, so it's technically not our fault we were gullible because we, along with Aurene, were being subtly influenced by Jormag's magical domain. In the past we've usually had some indication people are being influenced by Jormag though, or at least Jormag via Drakkar. If the resolution is 'we made a mistake' it's going to have to be perfectly written and executed with all the proper reasoning and evidence, or else I'll be so disappointed and upset. I am still not over Jormag telling us the balance is fake and no one making a peep. The only excusable explanation is magical manipulation, and even that feels like a weak argument, though one I

could

accept with proper build-up and explanation.

Something GW2 devs seem to do a lot is leave things vague in game, and then 'confirm' or explain things in dev talks, which is... bad. These things should be clear in the context of the game.

I don't think we're likely to see the Commander buy in to what Jormag is saying here. The Commander has been pretty consistently supportive of Braham in previous parts of the Icebrood Saga, and was pretty sceptical of Ryland, his relationship to Jormag, and the Frost Legion in "Truce". I don't think it's going to be the Commander being the gullible one here - if nothing else, the Commander is keeping in mind the prophecy involving Braham and expecting it to come to a head

sometime.

The bigger potential problem is that Jormag is clearly getting to some of the

others

. With that said, though, the asura seem to have been the only ones who have really bought in so far. Caithe is polite with Ryland, but sceptical, and starts pushing back harder when Ryland starts gaslighting her and the Commander - given her past experience with Faolain, she possibly recognised what Ryland was doing.

Dunno about the asura, maybe taimi, but if you see the end of the dock instance the council or haia said that asura are enough strong to defend themselves but she thanks about the gesture and alliance. To me is that tjey discussed, but asura stay independant and don't really made a traty or anything with ryland. In the first instance too, only three councillors, what about opinions of others?Seeing that asura got nuked by primordius underground because they were confident, don't see why the story wouldn't repeat itself.The dialogue don't really hint as alliance, it would have ended more like "you proven to be worthy and a correct ace in the hand for what is upcoming, the alliance is concluded, you and your troops are free to patrol around" it's the opposite in the in game dialogue.

I'm worried for taimi that seems pro jormag and said skrittshit in drm metrica, gorrik seems to have it's head with rytlock and braham and commander that are against/not trusting jormag. Dunno about jora, marjory, kasmeer, canach, but don't think they like jormag either.

And like I said above, there's a spectrum. The Arcane Council don't trust Jormag enough to have icebrood (even intelligent icebrood like the Frost Legion) stationed in their city... or perhaps their refusal is more of a matter of pride (something they have in spades). The impression I get, though, is that the Arcane Council might at least be considering the idea that long-term coexistence with Jormag is possible, while I think the Commander, at least for now, has ruled that out due to the prophecy (and possibly because the Commander has seen what Jormag has already done and doesn't buy the "I did what I had to to survive" justification). Come to think on it, one other part of the Commander's viewpoint is that while Jormag can speak honeyed words when talking to mortals, they seem to have forgotten (or not realised) that the Commander was listening in while Jormag was expressing absolute contempt towards mortals to Aurene.

[EdwinLi.1284]

A important thing I think we need to consider is the order of the upcoming missions. Assuming there is maybe only 3 new missions, it is possible the first two focus on Primordus minions and the last one is when Jormag minions attack.

If I have to guess Mission 1 to 5 (the first 3 missions we have now + first 2 missions of the upcoming update) are probably the focus on Primordus army and once we defeat the Destroyer Wyvern boss in Mission 5 then mission 6 happens with Jormag attacking. She may see that both the Commander/Pact/Alliance and Primordus have been weakened from their conflict just enough for Jormag to now consider taking them all out at once during their weakened state

Heck the fake Truce negotiations may have been Jormag's plan to set soldiers within major locations of each Kingdom where Destroyers have been sighted which could be the reason why the Son of Svanir got so close to Divinity's Reach. Trust was not needed to make this possible, only the threat of Destroyers and appearing as diplomats there to aid them against the Destroyers may have been enough for them to be allowed to get close to these locations. We should probably expect one of the upcoming missions in Part 3 to focus on the Frost Legion attack from within Rata Sum as well since Ryland already place agents within Rata Sum under the pretense of helping with protecting the City from Destroyers.

If this is the case then Ryland may have been smart enough to sabotage key locations within Rata Sum. Worst case, Ryland's possible attack in Rata Sum may end up successful in killing alot of people and Taimi being among them considering how Taimi and many Asura are willing to let Ryland and his Frost Legion up close.

[Chaos.7614]

@EdwinLi.1284 said:A important thing I think we need to consider is the order of the upcoming missions. Assuming there is maybe only 3 new missions, it is possible the first two focus on Primordus minions and the last one is when Jormag minions attack.

If I have to guess Mission 1 to 5 (the first 3 missions we have now + first 2 missions of the upcoming update) are probably the focus on Primordus army and once we defeat the Destroyer Wyvern boss in Mission 5 then mission 6 happens with Jormag attacking. She may see that both the Commander/Pact/Alliance and Primordus have been weakened from their conflict just enough for Jormag to now consider taking them all out at once during their weakened state.

I think you're on to something here, especially since Ryland's been described as an effective strategist. Would play into the theme Jormag has with deception too.

Heck the fake Truce negotiations may have been Jormag's plan to set soldiers within major locations of each Kingdom where Destroyers have been sighted which could be the reason why the Son of Svanir got so close to Divinity's Reach. Trust was not needed to make this possible, only the threat of Destroyers and appearing as diplomats there to aid them against the Destroyers may have been enough for them to be allowed to get close to these locations. We should probably expect one of the upcoming missions in Part 3 to focus on the Frost Legion attack from within Rata Sum as well since Ryland already place agents within Rata Sum under the pretense of helping with protecting the City from Destroyers.

If this is the case then Ryland may have been smart enough to sabotage key locations within Rata Sum. Worst case, Ryland's possible attack in Rata Sum may end up successful in killing alot of people and Taimi being among them considering how Taimi and many Asura are willing to let Ryland and his Frost Legion up close.

Another thing I've been thinking about is exactly how much of Primordus' strength he's using right now. These little skirmishes that he's been sending are little more than vanguards and I'm not sure how we'd deal with the might of his entire army, even if Jormag roused all its forces. It's also possible that he's got destroyers far stronger than the ones he's made recently; according to the wiki, destroyers are corrupted versions of living creatures - so what if he has inactive destroyers that mimic powerful creatures from ages past like the giants?

[EdwinLi.1284]

@Chaos.7614 said:

@"EdwinLi.1284" said:A important thing I think we need to consider is the order of the upcoming missions. Assuming there is maybe only 3 new missions, it is possible the first two focus on Primordus minions and the last one is when Jormag minions attack.

If I have to guess Mission 1 to 5 (the first 3 missions we have now + first 2 missions of the upcoming update) are probably the focus on Primordus army and once we defeat the Destroyer Wyvern boss in Mission 5 then mission 6 happens with Jormag attacking. She may see that both the Commander/Pact/Alliance and Primordus have been weakened from their conflict just enough for Jormag to now consider taking them all out at once during their weakened state.

I think you're on to something here, especially since Ryland's been described as an effective strategist. Would play into the theme Jormag has with deception too.

Heck the fake Truce negotiations may have been Jormag's plan to set soldiers within major locations of each Kingdom where Destroyers have been sighted which could be the reason why the Son of Svanir got so close to Divinity's Reach. Trust was not needed to make this possible, only the threat of Destroyers and appearing as diplomats there to aid them against the Destroyers may have been enough for them to be allowed to get close to these locations. We should probably expect one of the upcoming missions in Part 3 to focus on the Frost Legion attack from within Rata Sum as well since Ryland already place agents within Rata Sum under the pretense of helping with protecting the City from Destroyers.

If this is the case then Ryland may have been smart enough to sabotage key locations within Rata Sum. Worst case, Ryland's possible attack in Rata Sum may end up successful in killing alot of people and Taimi being among them considering how Taimi and many Asura are willing to let Ryland and his Frost Legion up close.

Another thing I've been thinking about is exactly how much of Primordus' strength he's using right now. These little skirmishes that he's been sending are little more than vanguards and I'm not sure how we'd deal with the might of his entire army, even if Jormag roused all its forces. It's also possible that he's got destroyers far stronger than the ones he's made recently; according to the wiki, destroyers are corrupted versions of living creatures - so what if he has inactive destroyers that mimic powerful creatures from ages past like the giants?

Vanguards or not, they appear to be attacking key locations to weaken the Commander's allies. Despite defending these locations, most likely the damage done by the time the fights are over is a critical state. Thus each location is now vulnerable for Jormag's forces to just walk right through since most of the forces that will normally defend these locations have been weakened by Primordus attacks.

It has been rather curious why the forces with Ryland have normally only appear after the attacks or only himself is appearing in these locations when the Commander is the only one getting aid from his/her allies in these fights. I never buy the "I am strong enough to be a worth a army" talk he tends to give off.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@"PseudoNewb.5468" said:Can the Son's of Svanir summon a cold blast that completely freezes the area and create free standing ice structures. All without at least the blessing of Jormag? The trailer shows Mantle's Breach and large parts of Lake Doric completely frozen over. Also Divinity's Reach defenses are active in the map too. Jormag seems to have begun assaulting the rest of Tyria bringing worse than Shiverpeaks weather down the mountains and across the region. Freezing Divinity's Reach is hostile regardless of how much Jormag says it wants to be nice.

Sons of Svanir are well established as being capable of spreading Jormag's corruption without being corrupted themselves, and Jormag is well established as not caring who or what gets corrupted, even in IBS. For example, we see Sons of Svanir summon flash blizzards that freeze over individuals in Dredgehaunt Cliffs events. And it isn't like Jormag is the sole source of powerful ice magic, either, and such sources would interest the Sons of Svanir if for no other reason than to feed to Jormag.

In addition, we have one historical elementalist capable of flash freezing a lake in the past, so it isn't unprecedented - this is the ice elementalist equivalent of a mesmer summoning an army of illusions or an illusion as large as a massive tower.

Combine the fact Sons of Svanir can channel Jormag's magic without being corrupted (yet), with a powerful uncorrupted elementalist capable of flash freezing, and flash freezing a lake with Jormag's magic isn't out of the possibility.

@Fueki.4753 said:

@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

@Fueki.4753 said:The commander didn't smash Ryland to pieces as soon as possible.To me, that's far more than enough of an indicator that the commander is buying into Jormag's story.Not being a psychopath who just kills everything on sight doesn't mean your buying into anything.He's a non-Aurene Dragon Champion, thus a big danger to Tyria.Despite what Jormag says, it does not care for Tyria's safety.There is literally no benefit in allowing Ryland to continue existing, but too many possible detriments.The commander ought to know that.

That is, Arenanet pulls something that unrealistically and unreasonably makes Jormag a good dragon, which would shatter the last remnants of cohesive story-telling. And in doing so, Arenanet would make a literal joke of the entire story.

Ryland is an individual of free will with an unclear position. The Commander was getting a feel for Ryland, to see if he still had free will. This was unrelated to Jormag, and the fact Ryland has free will means he can be convinced to the proper side or isn't strictly an outright threat whereas an enslaved icebrood is just as Jormag is.

The Commander isn't buying into Jormag's claims, but they're also not treating them as an imminent danger because as firmly established throughout Season 3 to Season 4, the world needs 4+ Elder Dragons to survive, and we don't have another replacement. The whole race has been to prevent Jormag's awakening, but now that it's happened we can't just go and bash the dragon and be done with it.

Jormag wasn't antagonized yet and the Commander and friends were taking advantage of this to pull resources and information. Killing Ryland (especially without knowing how strong he's gotten - last two times the Commander did that, they died the first time, and got stuck in a spell the second time) would antagonize Jormag.

[Teratus.2859]

I've never seen it so much as Jormag want's to be our friend but more Jormag want's us to help it achieve it's own agenda.Jormag is a manipulator and a deceiver, it's just what it does and what it's best at doing.

It knows we will never think of it as an ally or benevolent like Aurine yet it still spends it's time trying to get us "on it's side" and make us question whether we are doing the right thing.I think for the most part Jormag just wants us to stay out of it's way.. it doesn't want to fight Aurine but it does want to control her.. and we being Aurine's Champion grants us certain privileges in the sense that Jormag doesn't want us dead either.. for now at least.

As it stands atm this whole fighting on 2 fronts thing is being more set up as our fault.. Primordus being the big bad and then the enemies of Primordus also fighting amongst themselves rather than working together.To the ignorant people of Tyria this could easily evolve into a problem for the commander, specially if Jormag attempts to convert more people by spreading propaganda around that it wants peace and to save the world and we are the evil ones getting in it's way and stopping it.

This wouldn't be a new direction at all either.. we saw something similar with Balthazar returning and being a giant hole and people still followed him because he was a god.Then there was Joko and his brilliant speech before he was forcefully introduced to the bowels of a dragon.And lets not forget the fact that we have in the past spared the lives of Primordus, Jormag and Kralkatorrik from Balthazar who intended in killing them all.Add to that we are the champion of an Elder Dragon ourselves and there was that whole narrative that drove Bangar to do what he did.Jormag could very easily manipulate all of that information to turn people against us..

Who knows, perhaps that's how we'll end up in Cantha after IBS.. Jormag turns Tyria against us and we either get exiled or are forced to flee..Unlikely I know lol but that was fun to think about.