What actually makes Burn DH strong - nerf Burn DH & buff/rework Power Guards

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@"snoow.1694" said:Neither the condition „Burn“ nor Rune of the Trapper are currently overpowered...

Runes of the trapper

is a pending issue. It was to strong alongside ranger's traps and the result was that ranger's traps got nerfed. After that it ended being to strong alongside thief's traps and the result is that thiefs traps ended up being nerfed and then directly changed to "preparations". Now it's to strong alongside DH traps and you're basically saying the issue isn't the runes...

Let's imagine that EoD give the necromancer an elite spec with traps, how much are you willing to bet that alongside

runes of the trapper

it would be balanced? Come on just imagine necromancer with superspeed and stealth...

Other examples: thematically, traps fit both mesmer and engineer so I wouldn't be surprised to see trap given to them in elite spec (mind traps for mesmers and well mechanisl traps for engi). Just imagine them with extra access to superspeed and stealth. For both it wouldn't hurt thematically at all, but balance wise it would be a nightmare.

From the very begining, this runeset is a balance issue, the fact that it wasn't changed yet is what's surprising.

Not that I have a dog in this fight, but this is a good way to think about the runes.

Think of if the warrior EoD espec got traps. Stealthed Bulls Charge or stealthed Earthshakers would happen. The stealth would cover warrior's biggest weakness, highly telegraphed animations. So, apply the exercise to other classes that lack stealth and ask yourself if they become broken.

Stealth on a rune set is truthfully an incredibly terrible idea. It's thematic for sure, but without an icd it becomes broken. This is in part because of how stealth stacks. If it functioned like superspeed, where it just overrode the last application 85% of the qq on anything that today chest stealth would disappear.

So, IMHO, either change stealth to not stack, or put a 5s cd on the runes. The stealth change would honestly be healthier for the game, but that is my opinion on the issue and others are free to disagree.

[DKRathalos.9625]

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Think of if the warrior EoD espec got traps. Stealthed Bulls Charge or stealthed Earthshakers would happen. The stealth would cover warrior's biggest weakness, highly telegraphed animations. So, apply the exercise to other classes that lack stealth and ask yourself if they become broken.

Stealth on a rune set is truthfully an incredibly terrible idea. It's thematic for sure, but without an icd it becomes broken. This is in part because of how stealth stacks. If it functioned like superspeed, where it just overrode the last application 85% of the qq on anything that today chest stealth would disappear.

So, IMHO, either change stealth to not stack, or put a 5s cd on the runes. The stealth change would honestly be healthier for the game, but that is my opinion on the issue and others are free to disagree.

Now that you mention this I trap on warrior maybe not that bad? Still depend on how they implement it though, so far warrior's utility have no serious damage like compared to DH's trap Procession of Blades and SoJ (power). When translated into competitive warrior's Utility only buff and CC without damage, nothing can seriously dish out damage.I agree on you with stealth change shouldn't stack, well that will also maybe solve the permastealth thief problem at wvw? But the sneak gyro blasting strategy could get hit too and maybe will result in different approach of fight.

[Virdo.1540]

What makes burnguards strong? Bad groups that completely stack on the same spot, so all can be hit with the same symbol.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

@DKRathalos.9625 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Think of if the warrior EoD espec got traps. Stealthed Bulls Charge or stealthed Earthshakers would happen. The stealth would cover warrior's biggest weakness, highly telegraphed animations. So, apply the exercise to other classes that lack stealth and ask yourself if they become broken.

Stealth on a rune set is truthfully an incredibly terrible idea. It's thematic for sure, but without an icd it becomes broken. This is in part because of how stealth stacks. If it functioned like superspeed, where it just overrode the last application 85% of the qq on anything that today chest stealth would disappear.

So, IMHO, either change stealth to not stack, or put a 5s cd on the runes. The stealth change would honestly be healthier for the game, but that is my opinion on the issue and others are free to disagree.

Now that you mention this I trap on warrior maybe not that bad? Still depend on how they implement it though, so far warrior's utility have no serious damage like compared to DH's trap Procession of Blades and SoJ (power). When translated into competitive warrior's Utility only buff and CC without damage, nothing can seriously dish out damage.I agree on you with stealth change shouldn't stack, well that will also maybe solve the permastealth thief problem at wvw? But the sneak gyro blasting strategy could get hit too and maybe will result in different approach of fight.

You're not wrong, but at the same time I want something more utilitarian than traps. There are enough traps in the game. I'd rather have a new unique skill type.

@Virdo.1540 said:What makes burnguards strong? Bad groups that completely stack on the same spot, so all can be hit with the same symbol.

Permeating Wrath with the 3hits/AoE burn, Eternal Armory for more burn per hit, and Symbolic Power for double credit per symbol hit. When I've run burn DH it wasn't with traps. I run Shield of the Avenger, SoJ, and a stunbreak when I do it. Grant it I do that build in WvW, but I melt people there including rangers, most don't bring unblockables and I can sit in SoA forever while forcing them to dance. Was way too effective so I shelved it. Felt too bad playing that build.

There are enough skills to spam that if when you fish all the dodges out, and you can, you can immobilize the target and drop SoJ, a symbol, and use your other skills to build burn stacks.

And that is the issue. A good DH will make you dance until you've burn your dodges, and them immob you, and pack burns on you with enough in reserve so that when you do cleanse they will just reapply them. It has everything to do with the rate of burn application, traps are just a way to maximize the amount of burn, but are entirely not needed on burn DH. The runes just give synergy to the traps, which as I mentioned are really only broken because of the nature of how stealth stacks and not having a built in CD.

Just my experience based on playing burn DH.

[Lord of the Fire.6870]

@"snoow.1694" said:As I think there is alot of misinformation being spread about the current issue with Burn Dragonhunter and people are suggesting ineffective adjustments I would like to give my input as well, while trying to be as objective as possible, because I main Guardian since beta

First of all, the situation we are currently witnessing with Burn DH is the result of constant overnerfs on ArenaNets side, because they don‘t simply adjust overperforming Guardian specs, but straight up eradicate them from competitive play.Firebrand neither offers any form of damage whatsoever nor good support anymore, Core Guardians got the single most reliable way to do power damage as the slowest class ingame taken away since the symbol nerf, a nerf that makes power builds obsolete through our class mechanic and the one last gimmick build Guardians are resorting to, Burn DH, will and should be nerfed. I hope though that ArenaNet won‘t simply nerf Burn DH without giving Guardians some form of power damage, that we can land with our little mobility or I can promise the next meta will be even more bunker heavy, since Guardians will have no more incentive to invest into damage specs and Healbreakers will run on a rampage through PvP.

As I myself think Burn DH should be nerfed as well, it is important to point out what the issue actually is.Neither the condition „Burn“ nor Rune of the Trapper are currently overpowered for basically the same reason, other classes can‘t utilize them as well and make them feel as oppressive. Nerfing burn as an important source of damage would simply make the whole meta even more of a bunker party, nerfing RoT would change absolutely nothing.What makes Burn DH so strong at the moment is the extreme synergy Permeating Wrath offers with Sword of Justice and Eternal Armory. Individually they aren‘t actually strong and can‘t even put up alot of burn uptime, but combined they complement each other too well.What I think should be nerfed isn‘t Permeating Wrath, which offers base 2s burn, but Sword of Justice and Eternal Armory, by turning SoJ from a multihit attack into a one hit attack. All synergy with Permeating Wrath would be instantly gone and the gimmick wouldn’t work anymore

My take on is that what it makes strong is the combination of cc and SoJ. SoJ isn't strong alone in PvP because you can dodge it but with cc it can use it full strength. True every aspect on your list is a bit out of the power curve but not very uncommon but what is uncommon is how SoJ works . The skill which spawns SoJ is a munitions skill while SoJ itself gives something like pulsing dmg there are no other skill like this in Gw 2 . Mathematically speaking this has an insane growth if you look at the dmg as a result this the main burst source for all guardian builds . It looks for me like someone wanted to buff the guard but done it by just dumping dps into SoJ and sure enough when you look at the wiki page https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Sword_of_Justice . It got buffed countless times.

What I say with this is:

1. Yes stealth is not really balanced in Gw2 like in other MMOs
2. Yes fire condis is annoying because the can reapplied easily.
3. Yes cc is annoying because we don't support guard with stabi any more
4. Yes the trapper rune is too gimmicky and people can't say if the stuff they see it legit or people using some kinds of hacksBut nothing of this is so out of the power curve like SoJ and no other skill can apply 20 stacks burn in 5 s in Gw2