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Champions Part 2 [lore discussion]


EdwinLi.1284

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@Teratus.2859 said:As it stands atm this whole fighting on 2 fronts thing is being more set up as our fault..I don't see this is in any way being set up as our fault. There's been no point so far where we got the blame for any of this. Bangar is the one with most of the blame, for letting his paranoia get to him, and go on the whole crusade to wake Jormag in the first place. Nor do I see a significant portion of Tyria buying into Jormag's attempts to sell that line when its clearly not helpful either.

What I find more likely is that, from what we know based on how many mastery points were added to the game map, there are 10 DRMs.

  • Chapter 1 gave us 3 DRMs
  • Chapter 2 is giving us 4 DRMs
  • Chapter 3 will likley give us the last 3 DRMs
  • That leaves Chapter 4 without its own set of DRMs. I've heard that there have been updates to the map area around EoTN, which fits with the original IBS trailer which ended with a large army standing in front of a structure, presumably the Eye, with Jormag's forces marching on it.

I find it more likely chapter 4 will invove some final showdown at the Eye, and either Primordus lives, and then moves down to Cantha to take out Bubbles, absorb its power, and become the Dragon of Dragons so to speak, or with Primordus and Jormag's deaths, and their energies rushing off to Aurene and Bubbles, we have to go down there to end it once and for all, with Aurene sensing a disturbance in the force as she did when Jormag woke.

Primordus living and going down to Cantha would fit with the EoD logo, which, unlike all previous logos, shows two dragons. One underwater, and one above water. Primrodus and Bubbles? Jormag and Bubbles?

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@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

@"Teratus.2859" said:As it stands atm this whole fighting on 2 fronts thing is being more set up as our fault..I don't see this is in any way being set up as our fault. There's been no point so far where we got the blame for any of this.

Not to us players, but the the people of Tyria.It's easy for us to know Jormag bad.. but to others who have had the luxury of living normal lives and not being on the front lines of the dragon war it will be far less apparent.There could be plenty more like Bangar out there among the other races.. in fact realistically id say it's probably a certainty that there are plenty of people that would easily succumb to Jormag's manipulations as it spreads it's territory and influence.

Among the Norn the Sons of Svanir.. among the Charr the Dominion forces.. I would bet heavily on there being a very strong possibility some Humans would be foolish enough to follow that same trend.. and we've already seen the Asura are willing to work with Jormag and the frost legion against Primordus as well.

I don't think it would be that hard for Jormag to put the idea in peoples heads that Jormag is only our "enemy" because we keep going after it.That's what I mean when I said this is being set up as our fault.We had a choice to avoid fighting this way and we refused, so having to fight 2 dragons instead of just 1 is something we choose to do, ergo technically it is our fault.. even if it was the right thing to do.Jormag being Jormag and all.. lying with the truth is pretty much something it is especially proficient at.

What I find more likely is that, from what we know based on how many mastery points were added to the game map, there are 10 DRMs.

  • Chapter 1 gave us 3 DRMs
  • Chapter 2 is giving us 4 DRMs
  • Chapter 3 will likley give us the last 3 DRMs
  • That leaves Chapter 4 without its own set of DRMs. I've heard that there have been updates to the map area around EoTN, which fits with the original IBS trailer which ended with a large army standing in front of a structure, presumably the Eye, with Jormag's forces marching on it.

That structure isn't the eye of the north, it's actually old concept art of a norn lodge that has been around for years.. even before Gw2 came out if I recall correctly..It was one of the original Gw2 wallpapers that you could download and you can still find it near the bottom of the wallpaper section onf the official Gw2 website.https://www.guildwars2.com/en-gb/media/wallpapers/And the specific wallpaper itself.https://d3b4yo2b5lbfy.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/wallpapers/GuildWars2_NornBonusWP01-1920x1200.jpg

They must have reused this art for the trailer because as far as I can tell it looks identical.But I'm no developer so I can't tell you if there was a reason for reusing this specific artwork or whether it was to just save time or just because it looked cool.. but as many others have said in the past, these kinds of trailers are often featuring details that do not accurately represent the game (in that same trailer for example.. land spears and Jhavi using a shield as a Necro) so it's best not to take everything you see in them literally.

I find it more likely chapter 4 will invove some final showdown at the Eye, and either Primordus lives, and then moves down to Cantha to take out Bubbles, absorb its power, and become the Dragon of Dragons so to speak, or with Primordus and Jormag's deaths, and their energies rushing off to Aurene and Bubbles, we have to go down there to end it once and for all, with Aurene sensing a disturbance in the force as she did when Jormag woke.

I strongly expect there will be a showdown at the Eye as well but it's the aftermath of that fight that I am curious about.I do not want Primordus to be killed off this quickly, that much i've said a number of times now and I will be very disappointed if Anet take that road.That said while i'd accept it I don't want to see Jormag wiped out this quickly either and would much rather have the finale of End of Dragons become a massive 4 way battle between the last 4 Elder Dragons.

That said, there are plenty of ways to theory craft how we get to Cantha but very little to solidify any of them with the canon of the game so far.

Primordus living and going down to Cantha would fit with the EoD logo, which, unlike all previous logos, shows two dragons. One underwater, and one above water. Primrodus and Bubbles? Jormag and Bubbles?

I'm glad you also feel the logo is relevant as well.Trailers have shown us much in the past but also mislead us a lot as well.. a prime example being the gigantic leviathan world boss teaser in the Manifesto trailer that never made it into the actual game (remedy that one day Anet please!!! lol)

But logo's.. Gw2's logos have always been on point and featured an elder dragon that is related to or visually shows up in that expansion.Core Gw2's generic dragon.. I'd say it represents Zhaitan since he ended up being the first one we went after.HoT, Mordremoth.PoF, Kralkatorrik.And End of Dragons.. there are 2 in the logo, one of which is clearly a representation of the Sea dragon.

I am agreed with you on this point, I am certain that End of Dragons will definitely feature multiple dragons and one of them will definitely be the sea dragon.What I am not certain on though is how we get from where we are in the story currently to fighting a completely different dragon in a foreign country miles to the south..That is a massive hole for speculation and leaves me pretty excited to see where the Ice Brood Saga takes us.

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@"Teratus.2859" said:Not to us players, but the the people of Tyria.I know, I was speaking about the people of Tyria. There has been nothing to suggest the common person in Tyria would have any reason to blame us for this, and with it coming out what Jormag has done in the far north(manipulating Bangar, the attacks on Jora's Keep, and Still Water Speaking), as well as his upcoming attacks on Lake Doric, and Snowden Drifts, there is even LESS reason for the common person to Tyria to feel that way. Especially with the whole theme of Champions being us getting the last even remotely major factions of Tyria together to help fight against Jormag and Primordus's forces.

so it's best not to take everything you see in them literally.I wasn't. Obviously we never saw the Charr Homelands burning down, the Kodan putting their dead to sea, or centaurs with enslaved humans, but the overall progression of the trailer has matched up with that of the plot.

  • Scene 1 is the Charr Homelands = Grothmar Valley
  • Scene 2 is the Kodan putting their dead to rest = Bjora Marches
  • Scene 3 is centaurs with enslaved humans in a woodland area = Drizzlewood
  • Scenes 4, 5, and 6, are a sinking ship, Norn in a snowy area, and the standoff at the structure. Which are likely the DRMs, and the final standoff at the Eye. the sinking ship would be in Bloodtide, which we know will have a DRM due to the mastery point that showed up there, the snowy area is Snowden, for the same reason, and the standoff is the Eye.

I do not want Primordus to be killed off this quickly, that much i've said a number of times now and I will be very disappointed if Anet take that road.I would find it odd as well given that he isn't even awake yet. He is only waking up as per Chapter 1 Truce.

That said while i'd accept it I don't want to see Jormag wiped out this quickly eitherI don't think its been quickly for Jormag. Jormag has been manipulating events since Bound by Blood came out. By the time we reach the end of IBS it will be 18 months of Jormag plot. A year and a half, especially in MMO time, is forever. And we have pretty much already exploited all the big Jormag lore beats. Tooth prophecy, lost spirits, battle with Asgeir, Drakkar, etc. etc.

What I am not certain on though is how we get from where we are in the story currently to fighting a completely different dragon in a foreign country miles to the south..Easy, with Jormag, and possibly Primordus, dead, the Deep Sea Dragon is the last of the original, evil, Elder Dragons left. Why wouldn't we take the initiative, and the momentum we have built up since forming the Pact back in core, to go off and kill the last Elder Dragon so we can end what has been nearly a decade of battle for this specific objective? There is no reason for us to not go there.

Not to mention we have largely wrapped up all the major threats, and story beats, in Tyria and Elona

  • Kryta's war with the Centaurs? Done. Seraph pushed them back into their lands, and killed their war leader.
  • The Bandit/White Mantle infiltration? Done. The bandit leaders are dead, and the Mantle has collapsed.
  • The mystery behind the Sylvari's origins, and immunity to dragon corruption? Done. Covered in HoT.
  • The Pale Tree being injured? Done. Reforging Caladbolg put her back on the path to recovery.
  • The Nightmare Court? Largely done. There will be holdouts of any group like that, but the losses they took in core, LWS1, and HoT, would have pushed thier already few numbers into the tank.
  • Bangar being an idiot? Done. Charr civil war plot is ended.
  • The Flame Legion being evil? Done. Original leadership killed, and remnants brought back into Charr civilization with Efram at the head,
  • Branded problems in Charr lands? Done. Kralkatorrik is dead, Aurene is purifying the Brand, and the Charr are using thumper machines to force the last of the branded out from underground so they can be killed.
  • Charr/Human conflicts? Done. the treaty has been signed, and the major funders of both the Renegades, and the Separatists, have been killed.
  • Anything to do with the Norn? The Tooth Prophecy? The lost Spirits of the Wild? Asgeir's battle with Jormag? Drakkar/Jhavi getting revenge? Pretty much done, or in the process.
  • Elona issues? Forged have been mopped up. Joko is dead, and his empire collapsed. Sunspears have been restored. There is a new coalition government helping rebuild the region.

Once IBS ends, the only systemic issues left in Tyria/Elona are the ghost problem in Ascalon, and the Inquest being up to no good. There really just isn't much left for us to do in Tyria right now. Even if there is no big story hook into it, there is no reason for us to not immediately go "lets go to Cantha and kill Bubbles to end this" to ride the momentum and finish the job we started back in core.

I think needing a big story reason, like Jormag manipulating everyone into forcing us out, is over thinking a simple issue.

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@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

@"Teratus.2859" said:Not to us players, but the the people of Tyria.I know, I was speaking about the people of Tyria. There has been nothing to suggest the common person in Tyria would have any reason to blame us for this, and with it coming out what Jormag has done in the far north(manipulating Bangar, the attacks on Jora's Keep, and Still Water Speaking), as well as his upcoming attacks on Lake Doric, and Snowden Drifts, there is even LESS reason for the common person to Tyria to feel that way. Especially with the whole theme of Champions being us getting the last even remotely major factions of Tyria together to help fight against Jormag and Primordus's forces.

That's the thing though, Bangar knew what he was doing.. he knew he was being manipulated and didn't care because he wanted the power Jormag was offering and he wanted to have his own Elder Dragon to defend his people against us.. and he constantly used us having an Elder Dragon as a call to arms for his Dominion.He just wasn't expecting Jormag to screw him over in the end in favour of a more devoted servant, much to our amusement as players :D

So we've quite literally already seen this "people turning on us" thing happen among the Charr because of people like Bangar being under Jormag's influence.We've also seen the Asura in all their intelligence consider working with Jormag and the Frost legion because "Primordus is the bigger threat"And Human's.. well a good bunch of them decided to revive the White Mantle.. another bunch decided to follow Balthazar on a suicidal end of the world mission.I have no doubts what so ever that a human faction of Jormag followers would be extremely likely if Jormag was able to spread it's influence that far south.. which is what I suspect it is trying to do in the upcoming release.Jormag need only broadcast to Divinity's Reach it's messages of peace, protection and friendship and you'd see a bunch of foolish humans buy it, i'd put good money on that lolThe Norn are the ones most likely to resist Jormag due to their history but many of them still fell in with the Son's, that's just how effective Jormag is at manipulating mortals.. and much as we saw in Champions Norn aka Braham's warnings fell on deaf ears with the Asura who are far far smarter than Humans and Norn.

I do not want Primordus to be killed off this quickly, that much i've said a number of times now and I will be very disappointed if Anet take that road.I would find it odd as well given that he isn't even awake yet. He is only waking up as per Chapter 1 Truce.

Many are predicting it.. and there's reason to suspect it may happen but god I hope it doesn't.Zhaitan got a campaign.Mordremoth got a season and an expansion.Kralkatorrik got a cameo in an expansion then a season with some of the most epic Elder Dragon moments in the game so far.Primordus has had nothing but a cameo in GW1 and a Cameo in season 3 and a few DRM's.. having him wake up and die within a few episodes would be a complete insult to what many fans believe is the biggest and baddest of all the Elder Dragons.

That said while i'd accept it I don't want to see Jormag wiped out this quickly eitherI don't think its been quickly for Jormag. Jormag has been manipulating events since Bound by Blood came out. By the time we reach the end of IBS it will be 18 months of Jormag plot. A year and a half, especially in MMO time, is forever. And we have pretty much already exploited all the big Jormag lore beats. Tooth prophecy, lost spirits, battle with Asgeir, Drakkar, etc. etc.

Yeah, hence why i'd accept it though i'd still rather Jormag stick around a little longer and have a few more awesome moments :)

What I am not certain on though is how we get from where we are in the story currently to fighting a completely different dragon in a foreign country miles to the south..Easy, with Jormag, and possibly Primordus, dead, the Deep Sea Dragon is the last of the original, evil, Elder Dragons left. Why wouldn't we take the initiative, and the momentum we have built up since forming the Pact back in core, to go off and kill the last Elder Dragon so we can end what has been nearly a decade of battle for this specific objective? There is no reason for us to not go there.

Because we don't know where it is and it hasn't been making a problem of itself outside of some minor incidents.Plus there's still the whole Killing Dragons dooms the world problem that has still not been addressed yet.There's a lot of blanks to fill in there to get us from A to B.

Not to mention we have largely wrapped up all the major threats, and story beats, in Tyria and Elona

  • Kryta's war with the Centaurs? Done. Seraph pushed them back into their lands, and killed their war leader.Not quite done yet.. but they are demoralised and far less active now.

  • The Bandit/White Mantle infiltration? Done. The bandit leaders are dead, and the Mantle has collapsed.

  • The mystery behind the Sylvari's origins, and immunity to dragon corruption? Done. Covered in HoT.These two stories are done yes.

  • The Pale Tree being injured? Done. Reforging Caladbolg put her back on the path to recovery.She hasn't fully recovered yet though, we've not seen the Pale Tree in a long time.

  • The Nightmare Court? Largely done. There will be holdouts of any group like that, but the losses they took in core, LWS1, and HoT, would have pushed thier already few numbers into the tank.It's unknown how many losses they took, a lot of Nightmare Court resisted Mordremoth as well.Their biggest loss however was loosing Faolin which left them leaderless.. although a group like this you would expect to recover over time so while they are not a major threat now they could be again in the future.

  • Bangar being an idiot? Done. Charr civil war plot is ended.Sorta.. Bangar is a slave but his Dominion army is still active.. and under Jormag's control.So sure, the civil war is over but Jormag's invasion is yet to come.

  • The Flame Legion being evil? Done. Original leadership killed, and remnants brought back into Charr civilization with Efram at the head.Largely yes.. I expect there are still hold outs for the old ways though, i'm still not entirely sold on the idea of Flame Legion being the "good guys" now lolI expect a bunch fell in with Bangar which severely crippled them but a small handful of diehards went underground much like the Mantle did in Gw1 to regroup over time, I doubt we've seen the last of the bad Flame Legion yet, but we probably won't see them again for a long time either.. unless i'm right not to trust the ones claiming to be good now lol

  • Branded problems in Charr lands? Done. Kralkatorrik is dead, Aurene is purifying the Brand, and the Charr are using thumper machines to force the last of the branded out from underground so they can be killed.In Charr lands.. the brand stretches far and if I recall right the branded were often migrating southward to be closer to their master so I expect they will be lingering around in the more remote areas of the desert for a while, I don't think they've all been destroyed yet nor will be for a long time.Specially since we learned Kralkatorrik learned how to revive them in his last year of life.There's also the damage Kralk did in the mists, we've yet to see the major effects of that.

  • Charr/Human conflicts? Done. the treaty has been signed, and the major funders of both the Renegades, and the Separatists, have been killed.Yep this one is done, at best a few remnants left on the human side.. as we saw early in IBS Renegades were joining up with Bangar so these factions did still exist over the years.

  • Anything to do with the Norn? The Tooth Prophecy? The lost Spirits of the Wild? Asgeir's battle with Jormag? Drakkar/Jhavi getting revenge? Pretty much done, or in the process.

  • Elona issues? Forged have been mopped up. Joko is dead, and his empire collapsed. Sunspears have been restored. There is a new coalition government helping rebuild the region.

These are largely done too I agree.

Once IBS ends, the only systemic issues left in Tyria/Elona are the ghost problem in Ascalon, and the Inquest being up to no good. There really just isn't much left for us to do in Tyria right now. Even if there is no big story hook into it, there is no reason for us to not immediately go "lets go to Cantha and kill Bubbles to end this" to ride the momentum and finish the job we started back in core.

I think needing a big story reason, like Jormag manipulating everyone into forcing us out, is over thinking a simple issue.

But we don't know where the sea dragon is, it's not causing mainland Tyria any problems and hasn't been for a very long time.That need to go to Cantha is one of those missing pieces, we don't even know the sea dragon is there or anywhere near Cantha.Just having our characters say "lets see what Cantha is upto" would be a really poor way to take us there lol

As I said too, we still don't have a solution for killing Elder Dragons yet without replacements and that could be a reason we do end up doing to Cantha to seek out Kuunavang but atm there appears to be nothing suggesting that will end up happening.. and if that's how we do end up solving the problem then it still leaves 2 dragons needing replacements.There is always the dreaded Aurine can replace them all option too but that would be such a cop out excuse in my and a lot of peoples opinions.. we really don't want to end up with another "hey we found mordremoths weakness at the last minute through sheer coincidence" moment lol

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@"Teratus.2859" said:That's the thing though, Bangar knew what he was doing.. he knew he was being manipulatedExcept he didn't. In fact, he explicitly says he believed he WASN'T being manipulated, but with how everything turned out, wonders if he was the whole time.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Bangar_Ruinbringer#During_the_Confer_with_Bangar_achievementPlayer: You think Jormag always just meant to use you?Bangar: I don't know... You asked me before this, I would have said no chance. No one "mind-controls" Bangar Ruinbringer. But the way it played out... Was there an inflection point, a specific moment when...? If there was, I didn't know. I never felt for one second like my mind wasn't my own. But... I heard the whispers. Maybe that's all it takes.

And Human's.. well a good bunch of them decided to revive the White MantleThey never revived the White Mantle. The Mantle was never gone, they just ran off into the jungle at the end of GW1, and largely stayed there beyond sneding agents to try to manipulate Kryta.Because we don't know where it is and it hasn't been making a problem of itself outside of some minor incidents.We know its down near CanthaPlus there's still the whole Killing Dragons dooms the world problem that has still not been addressed yet.That's not really been an issue in regards to possibly killing Jormag and Primordus.So sure, the civil war is over but Jormag's invasion is yet to come.Sure, but thats another plot entirely.

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@"Teratus.2859" said:And Human's.. well a good bunch of them decided to revive the White Mantle.. another bunch decided to follow Balthazar on a suicidal end of the world mission.I have no doubts what so ever that a human faction of Jormag followers would be extremely likely if Jormag was able to spread it's influence that far south.. which is what I suspect it is trying to do in the upcoming release.Jormag need only broadcast to Divinity's Reach it's messages of peace, protection and friendship and you'd see a bunch of foolish humans buy it, i'd put good money on that lol

I don't think this is quite the same situation, though. The White Mantle had an established insurrection that had been present since their overthrow in GW1, while Balthazar's priesthood was an established institution in Kryta and his living (as opposed to Forged) followers seemed to be fairly few even then. Bangar, similarly, was an established authority figure, and he presented his effort as controlling Jormag rather than serving him. Considering the level of persuasion Jormag has already been shown to do, I wouldn't rule it out, but I don't think the precedents suggest that Jormag is suddenly going to get a significant level of support from the human population. Heck, we might be seeing the first signs of trouble happening in Lake Doric specifically because those humans most susceptible to demagoguery have been weeded out and they refuse to cooperate.

I'd also note, in the Dominion's case, there was mention that after what went down at the Frost Citadel, those Dominion who weren't already transformed started going "Hell no!" and surrendering.

I will note, though, that I think a large part of the reason for going to Cantha will be to find more friendly dragons so that the burden of regulating magic isn't entirely on Aurene.

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@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

@"Teratus.2859" said:That's the thing though, Bangar knew what he was doing.. he knew he was being manipulatedExcept he didn't. In fact, he explicitly says he believed he WASN'T being manipulated, but with how everything turned out, wonders if he was the whole time.

Player: You think Jormag always just meant to use you?Bangar: I don't know... You asked me before this, I would have said no chance. No one "mind-controls" Bangar Ruinbringer. But the way it played out... Was there an inflection point, a specific moment when...? If there was, I didn't know. I never felt for one second like my mind wasn't my own. But... I heard the whispers. Maybe that's all it takes.

I read it somewhere but I can't remember where exactly.. he knew that Jormag was saying what he wanted to hear or something like that.. he was aware of the attempts to manipulate him that's probably why he thought he wasn't being manipulated when he actually was.I can't recall where I saw that though, pretty sure it's in game dialogue or something but don't take my word for it.

And Human's.. well a good bunch of them decided to revive the White MantleThey never revived the White Mantle. The Mantle was never gone, they just ran off into the jungle at the end of GW1, and largely stayed there beyond sneding agents to try to manipulate Kryta.

Yes but they grew back into power, that's the point.They were able to recruit and manipulate people and successfully gain very high positions of power within human society.When Balthazar reappeared a great deal of his followers blindly followed him to war as well.Point is, whenever there is a power in the world that offers people what they view as a "good deal" or a "noble cause" there are always going to be those foolish enough to follow it no matter how many obvious red flags it sends up for everyone else.There's always people like that and you can bet if Jormag comes on down and starts "preaching" to humans it will seduce a good number of them with it's lies and promises.. Jormag would not be as dangerous as it is if it couldn't pull that off.

Because we don't know where it is and it hasn't been making a problem of itself outside of some minor incidents.We know its down near Cantha

Actually we don't, we know that it is somewhere in the ocean but not where it is exactly.This discussion has been had many times on the forums with various arguments but nothing official regarding the dragon's location has been confirmed yet.

Plus there's still the whole Killing Dragons dooms the world problem that has still not been addressed yet.That's not really been an issue in regards to possibly killing Jormag and Primordus.

It's something people bring up a lot in discussions though, atm killing them isn't really being discussed in game outside of Braham's destiny thing.. either he does or Jormag does.But a serious discussion about how to kill them and what will happen has yet to occur in game although Jormag has only recently awoke and prior to that our goal was't killing it, it was preventing it's awakening which we failed to do.So this is a discussion I expect our characters to have with Aurine in the near future when it's set in stone for our characters that we are going to be fighting both dragons to the death and there are no other options.

@draxynnic.3719 said:

@"Teratus.2859" said:And Human's.. well a good bunch of them decided to revive the White Mantle.. another bunch decided to follow Balthazar on a suicidal end of the world mission.I have no doubts what so ever that a human faction of Jormag followers would be extremely likely if Jormag was able to spread it's influence that far south.. which is what I suspect it is trying to do in the upcoming release.Jormag need only broadcast to Divinity's Reach it's messages of peace, protection and friendship and you'd see a bunch of foolish humans buy it, i'd put good money on that lol

I don't think this is quite the same situation, though. The White Mantle had an established insurrection that had been present since their overthrow in GW1, while Balthazar's priesthood was an established institution in Kryta and his living (as opposed to Forged) followers seemed to be fairly few even then. Bangar, similarly, was an established authority figure, and he presented his effort as controlling Jormag rather than serving him. Considering the level of persuasion Jormag has already been shown to do, I wouldn't rule it out, but I don't think the precedents suggest that Jormag is suddenly going to get a significant level of support from the human population. Heck, we might be seeing the first signs of trouble happening in Lake Doric specifically
because
those humans most susceptible to demagoguery have been weeded out and they refuse to cooperate.

It's not the same no but it's human nature want to believe in something more powerful than them.If Aurine showed up in DR preaching protection and friendship people would listen and they would do the same if Jormag did it on the same grounds.Jormag could have attacked and wiped us out.. but instead offered us peace and friendship, maybe it's not so bad after all and we were wrong about it... there's always people who think that way and succumb to the manipulation of malevolent forces.

I'd also note, in the Dominion's case, there was mention that after what went down at the Frost Citadel, those Dominion who weren't already transformed started going "Hell no!" and surrendering.

Some of them got that kick in the tail they needed lolBut there were those who still choose to become corrupted, it's much like the flame legion in the past as well, you always get those kinds of people, fanatics and zealots for a cause they believe in.

I will note, though, that I think a large part of the reason for going to Cantha will be to find more friendly dragons so that the burden of regulating magic isn't entirely on Aurene.

Yeah this is a popular prediction that I also find likely as well.Guess we just have to wait and see, atm there isn't anything solid to go on but hopefully that will change soon.

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@Teratus.2859 said:

  • The Nightmare Court? Largely done. There will be holdouts of any group like that, but the losses they took in core, LWS1, and HoT, would have pushed thier already few numbers into the tank.It's unknown how many losses they took, a lot of Nightmare Court resisted Mordremoth as well.Their biggest loss however was loosing Faolin which left them leaderless.. although a group like this you would expect to recover over time so while they are not a major threat now they could be again in the future.Not quite. They have a new leader, she is there after the DS meta and has a bit of dialog. Doesn't appear to be overly antagonistic. The new Nightmare Court could develop into some sort of allied faction, if needed.

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@Fenella.2634 said:

  • The Nightmare Court? Largely done. There will be holdouts of any group like that, but the losses they took in core, LWS1, and HoT, would have pushed thier already few numbers into the tank.It's unknown how many losses they took, a lot of Nightmare Court resisted Mordremoth as well.Their biggest loss however was loosing Faolin which left them leaderless.. although a group like this you would expect to recover over time so while they are not a major threat now they could be again in the future.Not quite. They have a new leader, she is there after the DS meta and has a bit of dialog. Doesn't appear to be overly antagonistic. The new Nightmare Court could develop into some sort of allied faction, if needed.

I don't remember that.

edit:You're referring to Duchess Chrysanthea right?She's not technically the leader, or wasn't back then at least.She may have arisen to the role since HoT but we can't know that until there's new story or news involving the Court.

She maybe the last Duchess of the court left though.. don't know for sure.But the leader of the court is known by the Grand Duchess title.. or for males I would assume Grand Duke..

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Honestly, the removal of the Nightmare Court Story part of Heart of Thorns really put a "thorn" into the Nightmare Court side of the storyline.

It is something that is really needed to be covered considering how much the Final Boss Meta implied about the Nightmare Court's fate because of Mordremoth's actions. Not to mention the removed 4th Path for the meta that was going to be tied to the Nightmare Court side of the Story for Heart of Thorns.

Now we hardly hear anything about the Nightmare Court and their current status in current storyline even for small mentions.

It really leaves a feel they rushed and skipped the Nightmare Court story in Heart of Thorns so they can hastily remove the Nightmare Court from future storylines after Heart of Thorns which currently does appear that way.

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Ok so story released now and we have 4 missions this time.

2 Primodus and 2 Jormag

Well it was expect that Jormag will start acting up and now we know the reason for both sides.

Primordus seeks to destroy everything and the more of the world that is destroyed the stronger he becomes.

Jormag seeks to freeze everything and the more of the world that is frozen the stronger she becomes.

Ryland is only going along with this because he still believes Jormag will make him the new Jesus Christs of the new world she seeks to create once she is the only Elder Dragon alive. Of course that obviously will never happen since that will require the world to become warm enough for these people frozen to be free which will never happen in Jormag's new world where everything is frozen in Ice.

Also it is a bit sad Owl is now dead. I was hoping to see more of her but guess death is a better fate than being corrupted to a Elder Dragon.

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All I gotta say is the plot of Champions so far is just a whole show of "seriousness" with no depth underneath.

GO TO HERE! FIGHTING! DANGER!GO TO THERE! FIGHTING! STRESSFUL!GO TO HERE! FIGHTING! CONFUSION!GO TO THERE! FIGHTING! SURPRISE PLOT TWIST (which isn't a surprise at all)

Meanwhile Aurene : Dur, I can't take action. Balance. Blah blah blah.Meanwhile Jormag : turns some villages into an Ice cream truck I'm good guys, I swearMeanwhile Primordus : rawr burn rawr death and destructionMeanwhile Braham : WAAAAAAA WAAAAAA IM CONFUSED, WHO AM I, WHAT AM I, WAAAAA OWL DEAD

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@"Yasai.3549" said:All I gotta say is the plot of Champions so far is just a whole show of "seriousness" with no depth underneath.

GO TO HERE! FIGHTING! DANGER!GO TO THERE! FIGHTING! STRESSFUL!GO TO HERE! FIGHTING! CONFUSION!GO TO THERE! FIGHTING! SURPRISE PLOT TWIST (which isn't a surprise at all)

Meanwhile Aurene : Dur, I can't take action. Balance. Blah blah blah.Meanwhile Jormag : turns some villages into an Ice cream truck I'm good guys, I swearMeanwhile Primordus : rawr burn rawr death and destructionMeanwhile Braham : WAAAAAAA WAAAAAA IM CONFUSED, WHO AM I, WHAT AM I, WAAAAA OWL DEAD

Well the whole "I am a good guy" talk is not wrong. Jormag naturally believes she is doing the right thing by freezing the entire world to preserve and protect the world.

In Jormag's eyes, her ideal world where everything is forever trapped in eternal stagnated state due to being frozen forever is a better world. No one can be harmed by change and be harmed by others because they are forever frozen in Ice. It is a type of twisted idea that Jormag has of being a Benevolent Dictator where everyone gets what they want but in return they must always provide everything she always wants in a land that will forever be frozen in time.

@draxynnic.3719 said:Personally, what really disappointed me is that the second 'Confer with Aurene' got interrupted, and the Commander apparently didn't think that people getting frozen in carbonite Jormagicite was worth going back to Aurene over.

I blame how they must cut up this last episode of Icebrood saga into 4 parts. It can leave a lot of inconsistency due to X or Y part not fully explored until a certain future mission is released. We technically are not missing much time between the wait lorewise as these Champion missions are intended to happen right after each other.

Though, the mission setup now does feel like the GW1 style of handling story missions with the addition players can choose free join for their story mission

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@"EdwinLi.1284" said:Well the whole "I am a good guy" talk is not wrong. Jormag naturally believes she is doing the right thing by freezing the entire world to preserve and protect the world.

That's the thing.... I wish they had put that across in a better way.Jormag went from "hey, we friends, we talk now, we share info, we work together" to "I'm chit chat with Aurene, and er, thanks for the info guys ima go do my.... stuff now"

Did Jormag JUST come up with this idea of turning the world into a fridge?Why not just act on it in the first place? It's not like they needed an alliance to go around turning things into popsicles.Doubt they needed to consult the Asuras on who or where to freeze over, Jormag could have just frozen over whatever they reached.

It's just a whole jumbled mess, trying to bring some humanity to Jormag by wanting alliance, but then deciding to "lol nvm, everyone's a popsicle now"I've mentioned it before : the entire Ice Brood Saga is just a convulated mess of trying to make a "deep intriguing storyline" but ended up just digging holes everywhere with no plan.

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@Yasai.3549 said:

@"EdwinLi.1284" said:Well the whole "I am a good guy" talk is not wrong. Jormag naturally believes she is doing the right thing by freezing the entire world to preserve and protect the world.

That's the thing.... I wish they had put that across in a better way.Jormag went from "hey, we friends, we talk now, we share info, we work together" to "I'm chit chat with Aurene, and er, thanks for the info guys ima go do my.... stuff now"

Did Jormag JUST come up with this idea of turning the world into a fridge?Why not just act on it in the first place? It's not like they needed an alliance to go around turning things into popsicles.Doubt they needed to consult the Asuras on who or where to freeze over, Jormag could have just frozen over whatever they reached.

It's just a whole jumbled mess, trying to bring some humanity to Jormag by wanting alliance, but then deciding to "lol nvm, everyone's a popsicle now"I've mentioned it before : the entire Ice Brood Saga is just a convulated mess of trying to make a "deep intriguing storyline" but ended up just digging holes everywhere with no plan.

I will not say no plot because this is a plot but it is rather rushed as there is obvious moments that will require probably a good 3 to 4 Story moments to explore these areas between the Story Missions.

As for Jormag, the Benevolent Dictator personality of Jormag has been her personality for a long time as the Icebroods have presented her that way since the beginning of GW2 as a Elder Dragon that will always give those who serve her what they want in return they give her what she wants. Also Jormags needs to do is whisper and talk to these people into believing what she provides is what they want. While it was not presented properly due to how the Champion Episode is split into such small pieces and does appear rushed in certain areas, Jormag is all about appearing benevolent and having people willingly join her instead of forcing them to join her. They have not changed anything about Jormag's method of trying to corrupt people being to always attempt to have people willingly accept becoming her minion through promises of getting what they want and desire.

With Aurene being young, Jormag thought she could persuade Aurene to join her though the idea of being a Benevolent Ruler and sharing that rule as equals while reminding Aurene that she is lacking life experience and Aurene should follow her suggestions because she is older and has more experience due to living long. At this point it is obvious Jormag has given up on trying since Aurene refuse to be persuaded by her words. It is not deep as it should be if it was running on a normal planned schedule but it does follow up on past knowledge about how Jormag handle things when it comes to attempting to corrupt beings and how she acts when she considers her attempt to corrupt people a failure.

As draxynnic said, Jormag is that one person in a abusive relationship but in this case it is like a abusive adult, or should I say abusive Aunt, to someone they consider a child.

They always act nice and give a certain attention to the child with making them feel comfort as long they get what they want from the child but if they don't get what they want despite the child behaving and done nothing wrong they get very violent.

At this point we are past the giving the feeling of comfort and acting nice since Aurene refuse to give Jormag what she wants. Now it has become the violent stage of that abusive relationship thing of the family.

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@radda.8920 said:absolutely no one is talking about the massacre of the dwarves?They come back with hardly a single line of dialogueFor a Guild Wars 1 player like me ,it's really hard to see, a shame.I imagined so much better for them with underground maps ..

One of many thing rushed in Champions sadly.

We should expect Champion story to be in this state since this single episode split into 4 parts is meant to be the one episode that leads into End of Dragons. It originally may have been long as all other epsiodes if released as a normal episode of Icebrood Saga.

The current state of our own world may have also contributed to this state due to restrictions placed on businesses.

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@"Yasai.3549" said:Did Jormag JUST come up with this idea of turning the world into a fridge?Why not just act on it in the first place? It's not like they needed an alliance to go around turning things into popsicles.Doubt they needed to consult the Asuras on who or where to freeze over, Jormag could have just frozen over whatever they reached.Yes, they explain this in the dialog of Asuran Counsel instance, and the Lake Doric DRM.

Ryland was in the meeting with the Asura where they told him that Primrodus has a feedback loop with his minions, where the more the burn, the stronger he gets, and the more they burn. Ryland is like "hmm, I'm gonna go try something" and leaves. Then we get the Lake Doric DRM, and at the end Ryland reveals this is what he was leaving to do, to see if the same worked for Jormag.

@EdwinLi.1284 said:As for Jormag, the Benevolent Dictator personality of Jormag has been her personality for a long time as the Icebroods have presented her that way since the beginning of GW2 as a Elder Dragon that will always give those who serve her what they want in return they give her what she wants. Also Jormags needs to do is whisper and talk to these people into believing what she provides is what they want. While it was not presented properly due to how the Champion Episode is split into such small pieces and does appear rushed in certain areas, Jormag is all about appearing benevolent and having people willingly join her instead of forcing them to join her. They have not changed anything about Jormag's method of trying to corrupt people being to always attempt to have people willingly accept becoming her minion through promises of getting what they want and desire.Except they HAVE presented this properly since the saga began, with Jormag's manipulation of Bangar, and Bangar's self admittance that he never felt like he was being mind controlled. Not to mention all the Whisper stuff in Bjora where this concept was further talked about. Champions didn't just introduce this idea, nor doesit particularly need to present it. Its been established for months now via numerous dialog.

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@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

@Yasai.3549 said:Did Jormag JUST come up with this idea of turning the world into a fridge?Why not just act on it in the first place? It's not like they needed an alliance to go around turning things into popsicles.Doubt they needed to consult the Asuras on who or where to freeze over, Jormag could have just frozen over whatever they reached.Yes, they explain this in the dialog of Asuran Counsel instance, and the Lake Doric DRM.

Ryland was in the meeting with the Asura where they told him that Primrodus has a feedback loop with his minions, where the more the burn, the stronger he gets, and the more they burn.This part was weird, anyway. Doesn't that make them a Perpetuum mobile? Something seems to be wrong there.

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@Fenella.2634 said:Also it is a bit sad Owl is now dead. I was hoping to see more of her but guess death is a better fate than being corrupted to a Elder Dragon.Don't forget Owl's cryptic comment about the Spirit's being able to guide the fall.

@Fenella.2634 said:This part was weird, anyway. Doesn't that make them a Perpetuum mobile? Something seems to be wrong there.Not weird to me. Dragon of fire gets more powerful the more fire there is, and if it makes more fire then yeah, its going to get stronger from that.

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@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

@Fenella.2634 said:This part was weird, anyway. Doesn't that make them a Perpetuum mobile? Something seems to be wrong there.Not weird to me. Dragon of fire gets more powerful the more fire there is, and if it makes more fire then yeah, its going to get stronger from that.Physics, though? I know, Tyria has magic, but still, even an Elder Dragon shouldn't be able to practically infinitely grow its own magic from basically nothing. Fire has to have something to burn, otherwise it should go down at some point.

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@"Svennis.3852" said:An accelerated story is to be expected, but I did not anticipate Jormag becoming hostile toward us this soon. I figured the ruse of a 'truce' would be drawn out till chapter 3 or 4, but I suppose we don't have that kind of time.

I think you and others misinterpret what Jormag is still doing. Jormag still hasn't lied nor become "hostile." Its basically white lies. I'm here to protect you and this world! (which is true but now we know this means covering people and the world in ice forever.) Ryland has told us that they havn't actually killed anyone just preserving them. Sure, icrbrood are attacking TO preserve us in ice and when you are attacked you defend yourself (even mobs). Its basically a calculated step on their part to undermine our efforts to stop Jormag and now we really are caught between the two.

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@EdwinLi.1284 said:As for Jormag, the Benevolent Dictator personality of Jormag has been her personality for a long time as the Icebroods have presented her that way since the beginning of GW2 as a Elder Dragon that will always give those who serve her what they want in return they give her what she wants. Also Jormags needs to do is whisper and talk to these people into believing what she provides is what they want. While it was not presented properly due to how the Champion Episode is split into such small pieces and does appear rushed in certain areas, Jormag is all about appearing benevolent and having people willingly join her instead of forcing them to join her. They have not changed anything about Jormag's method of trying to corrupt people being to always attempt to have people willingly accept becoming her minion through promises of getting what they want and desire.Except they HAVE presented this properly since the saga began, with Jormag's manipulation of Bangar, and Bangar's self admittance that he never felt like he was being mind controlled. Not to mention all the Whisper stuff in Bjora where this concept was further talked about. Champions didn't just introduce this idea, nor doesit particularly need to present it. Its been established for months now via numerous dialog.

She's the icedragon of mental abuse and gaslighting and we played right into it.

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