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KPs good in high population - KPs bad in low population - No KPs is good in low population


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@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:There’s a difference between players offering to teach you and expecting all of them to teach you.

Board games are also very different as players are not driven for rewards compared to those doing raids/fractals. Progress for board/card games is nonexistent in the sense that you’re simply playing the game whereas progress in fractals/raids can be slowed or even halted with having new players.

I don't expect all of them to teach me. The teaching doesn't happen enough. If I'm wrong the raiding community would grow. And I'm completely fine with being wrong.

You’re assuming that the reason that the raiding community isn’t growing is because veteran players are not teaching new players every chance that they get. You’re wrong.

but i think he's partly correct, still.

i even don't do the cm's for all the strike and drm things mostly, because it's just superrandom who you get into. i don't even try to explain to people who go "ping KP" that i'll have 20 times the apm they have as i'm only playing Wvw. still not done a single raid, but i can copy every build, as done on alacrene and straight done some CMs... half of the time goes pretty smooth, other times some people mess hard up.

i can just adapt where i press which button to get which effect. just Wvw has no killproofs... cannot ping the 2k kills per week lol. kinda know from that how slow many people are... and since i have been in a strong gvg guild, i also know how minmaxed timing works.

while technically it is true that this might be solveable by just joining a pvE guild. i still have most of my guild slots unused... one wvw guild, one dead pvE guild...

but what made me ultimately saying "nope, not gonna happen" towards raids... u need to plan like 3h learntime for each try with newbie group, and i'd fall asleep during that... for what? for finally legendary armor? i have one yet from wvw, i just have to say i don't really see the big use.... my legendary gear does in fact not swap stats very often. the legy-legs actually are minstrel since over a year by now thaha.

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@kamikharzeeh.8016 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:There’s a difference between players offering to teach you and expecting all of them to teach you.

Board games are also very different as players are not driven for rewards compared to those doing raids/fractals. Progress for board/card games is nonexistent in the sense that you’re simply playing the game whereas progress in fractals/raids can be slowed or even halted with having new players.

I don't expect all of them to teach me. The teaching doesn't happen enough. If I'm wrong the raiding community would grow. And I'm completely fine with being wrong.

You’re assuming that the reason that the raiding community isn’t growing is because veteran players are not teaching new players every chance that they get. You’re wrong.

but i think he's partly correct, still.

He’s not. Veterans raiders are often teaching in the training guilds/discords. There’s even a training event going on if you go to Reddit.

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@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@Firebeard.1746 said:I don't expect all of them to teach me. The teaching doesn't happen enough. If I'm wrong the raiding community would grow. And I'm completely fine with being wrong.

You’re assuming that the reason that the raiding community isn’t growing is because veteran players are not teaching new players every chance that they get. You’re wrong.

but i think he's partly correct, still.

He’s not. Veterans raiders are often teaching in the training guilds/discords. There’s even a training event going on if you go to Reddit.

And that's where it is only
partly
correct. There are indeed training guilds and discords, and some veterans help new wound-be raiders trhrough those, or through in-guild trainings. It is also equally true that most veterans don't do that, and that the training capacity the community does have doesn't come even close to the actual needs for it.

On the other hand, it's not like the lack of enough training options is the main issue here. Even if raiding community as a whole would be far more inclusive than it is now, it would not be enough - that's because it's the content itself that's too exclusive for majority of this game's players.

So, partial truth. Some veterans are teaching new players. Those teaching opportunities are still very limited. But even if they weren't, it doesn't mean the community would start growing.

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@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Firebeard.1746 said:I don't expect all of them to teach me. The teaching doesn't happen enough. If I'm wrong the raiding community would grow. And I'm completely fine with being wrong.

You’re assuming that the reason that the raiding community isn’t growing is because veteran players are not teaching new players every chance that they get. You’re wrong.

but i think he's partly correct, still.

He’s not. Veterans raiders are often teaching in the training guilds/discords. There’s even a training event going on if you go to Reddit.

And that's where it is only
partly
correct. There are indeed training guilds and discords, and some veterans help new wound-be raiders trhrough those, or through in-guild trainings. It is also equally true that most veterans don't do that, and that the training capacity the community does have doesn't come even close to the actual needs for it.

Whether most veterans teach or not wasn’t what they were saying. Are the trainers on the training discord’s would inundated with requests that they are unable to help? Are players using those discords unable to get assistance? I don’t recall either of those mentioned so it’s a bit odd that you suddenly bring it up as a fact out of the blue.

On the other hand, it's not like the lack of enough training options is the main issue here. Even if raiding community as a whole would be far more inclusive than it is now, it would not be enough - that's because it's the content itself that's too exclusive for majority of this game's players.

Not related to what I said in my post although you do counter what the poster had said that the lack of training is why the raiding community doesn’t grow.

So, partial truth. Some veterans are teaching new players. Those teaching opportunities are still very limited. But even if they weren't, it doesn't mean the community would start growing.

Limited or not doesn’t really matter if the number of players actually seeking them is limited as well. Unless the existing options are unable to fulfill requests, you really cannot state that.

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All the people I know that run fractal CMs regularly started out by doing it with friends or guildies. They eventually got the LNHB or DwD or KP to run solo and eventually just stopped playing together.

In the end, you're going to need to do the same thing. For what it's worth, the majority of LNHB and DwD title holders I've played with are competent but nothing special. They run meta builds, and know what utility/boons/cc are useful and at what time. Your aim is to find equally competent people at the hours you play. LFG is only a starting point, since you're rolling the dice.

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@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:There’s a difference between players offering to teach you and expecting all of them to teach you.

Board games are also very different as players are not driven for rewards compared to those doing raids/fractals. Progress for board/card games is nonexistent in the sense that you’re simply playing the game whereas progress in fractals/raids can be slowed or even halted with having new players.

I don't expect all of them to teach me. The teaching doesn't happen enough. If I'm wrong the raiding community would grow. And I'm completely fine with being wrong.The raid community doesn't grow not because there's not enough players wanting to teach, or not enough opportunities to learn. It's because learning process itself is too tedious/painful for a majority of players, which results in not enough players being willing to stick with it to the end. Which is a byproduct of both content difficulty and the skill discrepancies within community. And those are a byproduct of the combat/skill/traits/gear system design Anet decided on.

With whole game as it is, and the content being as it is, Raids being sustainable would require GW2 having way, way bigger playerbase than it has. Possibly even bigger than it ever had (, well, apart from maybe first months of the game, but
without
content locust padding a large part of that number).

I disagree with you. It's not that tedious to learn, sure you may die a lot during training runs, but it's really just people making mistakes, not that the raid is tedious. If it were tedious I'd hear people sobbing in tears on discord, but realistically most of these boss mechanics are not aggressively tedious to work with. I would add that Dhumm CM is probably the most aggressive I've seen.

In contrast I AM THANKFUL, EXTREMELY THANKFUL, that it's not like wow where you need like 80 tries on a boss in mythic before you're able to kill it. I swear when I did that crap I was ready to give up at try #40; still was fun though. The challenge is always the beauty.

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@"Aridon.8362" said:I disagree with you. It's not that tedious to learnFor you. Rather obviously, the current raiders are mostly those that do find it okay. Because those that thought otherwise more often than not never became the raiders in the first place.

If it were tedious I'd hear people sobbing in tears on discordYou wouldn't, because we're talking about people that aren't raiding. They are not on your discord.

In contrast I AM THANKFUL, EXTREMELY THANKFUL, that it's not like wow where you need like 80 tries on a boss in mythic before you're able to kill it. I swear when I did that kitten I was ready to give up at try #40; still was fun though. The challenge is always the beauty.Lol, that only underscores how different the experience of different players is.My anecdotal example is VG, which took our group over 2 months to kill for the first time (and another month before we were able to get to the point where replicating this "feat" became something expected). I don't know when we passed 40 tries, but i'm quite sure that it took us literally several hundred of those before we managed to get the boss on farm status. And that's even when we ignore all the tries that were too short to notice, because something went bad in the very beginning.

And VG is not a "mythic difficulty" equivalent - it's the entry boss.

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@Aridon.8362 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:There’s a difference between players offering to teach you and expecting all of them to teach you.

Board games are also very different as players are not driven for rewards compared to those doing raids/fractals. Progress for board/card games is nonexistent in the sense that you’re simply playing the game whereas progress in fractals/raids can be slowed or even halted with having new players.

I don't expect all of them to teach me. The teaching doesn't happen enough. If I'm wrong the raiding community would grow. And I'm completely fine with being wrong.The raid community doesn't grow not because there's not enough players wanting to teach, or not enough opportunities to learn. It's because learning process itself is too tedious/painful for a majority of players, which results in not enough players being willing to stick with it to the end. Which is a byproduct of both content difficulty and the skill discrepancies within community. And those are a byproduct of the combat/skill/traits/gear system design Anet decided on.

With whole game as it is, and the content being as it is, Raids being sustainable would require GW2 having way, way bigger playerbase than it has. Possibly even bigger than it ever had (, well, apart from maybe first months of the game, but
without
content locust padding a large part of that number).

I disagree with you. It's not that tedious to learn

It's not that it's tedious to learn, it's that it's tedious to organize.

The point of this thread was to point out that heavy KP expectation exasperates this problem in a low population community.

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Soooooo we're repeating this thread?https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/119910/impossible-for-new-players-raids/

It's not tedious to learn, if you want to learn and get into raiding you will. If you don't want to learn, then you have noone and nothing to blame."KPs bad in low pop" -maybe, but then again maybe not. Seeing how all it does is providing the way to distinguish players that are experienced/inexperienced (not a fool-proof method, sure, but it's... something), I'm not sure not having kps would somehow make anything better. You'd get into raid party, instantly show you don't know what is happening and get kicked. You lost time and learned nothing, party lost time and need to "rng in another player". Not a fan of KP, but it seems that the problem isn't so much KP as it is player attitude. You want a new player squad? Make one. You want no kp req chill squad? Make one. You want training squad? Read up and make one or wait for others to make one. KPs don't really seem to be the problem, they just seem to be the thing that helps people get into their respective raiding squad according to their preferences. Unless your preference is just to get carried, then huh, no comments.

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Aridon.8362 said:I disagree with you. It's not that tedious to learnFor you. Rather obviously, the current raiders are mostly those that do find it okay. Because those that thought otherwise more often than not never became the raiders in the first place.

If people aren't willing to learn, there's pretty much nothing you or anet can do to make them want to learn.

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:There’s a difference between players offering to teach you and expecting all of them to teach you.

Board games are also very different as players are not driven for rewards compared to those doing raids/fractals. Progress for board/card games is nonexistent in the sense that you’re simply playing the game whereas progress in fractals/raids can be slowed or even halted with having new players.

I don't expect all of them to teach me. The teaching doesn't happen enough. If I'm wrong the raiding community would grow. And I'm completely fine with being wrong.

You’re assuming that the reason that the raiding community isn’t growing is because veteran players are not teaching new players every chance that they get. You’re wrong.

but i think he's partly correct, still.

He’s not. Veterans raiders are often teaching in the training guilds/discords. There’s even a training event going on if you go to Reddit.

True, you're correct and the person you've answered to is just not. There's plenty of resources, guilds and even ""random"" squads that are willing to teach the players. Not 24/7? Sure. But nobody is bound to be some kind of "on duty teacher" because the new player isn't willing to read up or watch a video. Claiming that raids aren't growing because of veteran players is some... bold claim to make.

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@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:No, other games invalidate old content allowing skill less players to have a sense of success by beating content which otherwise would be unbeatable to them at a later point. Or they introduce difficulty tiers which are barely above free loot, to make even the worst players feel accomplished.

Nox100. I agree but you're moving what i was saying a different direction. The refresh helps make getting into groups easier.

No, it doesn't. Players who did not properly tackle challenging content gain NOTHING with gear depreciation in other MMOs in regards to improving game skill wise. What they gain is the ability to out-gear old content and experience it.

In that regard GW2 is actually superior. There is no required "cut-off" point one has to wait for. If you want to take on challenging content, you can start doing so at any point in time. Most often all it requires is a different approach to content in this game, often ideally paired with a more social approach and making contacts, but even that is only beneficial and not needed.

Simply put:If you lacked the knowledge, experience and underlying understanding how to approach challenging content, you are/were in the exact same spot in every other MMO even after a new gear set.

@Cyninja.2954 said:We have that in GW2. We have that in lower tier fractals. What we do not have is the gear deprecation and dumbing down of content to the same extent, though power creep is certainly present.

If you want to be successful in other MMOs and take on challenging content, the approach there is exactly the same as here: join a guild, practice, improve, succeed.

What % of guilds are doing progression runs?

Irrelevant in that most players who want to get into CMs never even take that approach. They demand others take them "as is" via LFG groups. You are demanding just that in this very thread. I linked you youtube video of a fractal training guild member/leader. There obviously are discord and guilds.

Even if not, here is what I did:I asked guildies in one of my more casual guilds which were already doing T4 semi regularly if they would be interested in-trying CMs. I did so AFTER actually spending a ton of time as duo with a friend in learning how to run CMs. I trained up 3 roster worth of guildies to be able to run CMs because eventually people don't have time or take a break from the game or fractals, etc.

The point is: the key in succeeding at this content is playing with other players regularly.

@Firebeard.1746 said:As for your comment on time, if nourishing the community around raiding is too time consuming then the game mode isn't sustainable.

No, a game mode becomes unsustainable if the amount of players playing it drops to far or the developers decide that they have to move on due to technical reasons (dungeons were by far not underpopulated but a mess code wise) which is far more related to updates that content receives.

Nourishing happens, just not the way you like it: between random parties all the time constantly. It happens in social groups of different degree most of the time.

I agree with you.It seems to me people always seem to confuse being friendly with being social.

People don't just stroll to random people playing boardgames and ask then to teach it to them.

Actually, that is usually how people learn new board games or card games. You go somewhere and people are playing a game and they want you to play so they sit you down and teach you. I've been watching it happen for 35+ years.

I have never once sat down and read a ruleset for monopoly or scrabble or poker or hearts, nor basketball or soccer or baseball. I learned these games because there were people around who wanted to get others involved in them, rather than push them away.

Strangely enough, I can't help to imagen that people wanting to teach other people these games, must have something to do with why these games are undying and have stood the test of time. And as much can be said in contrast for why raids are dying Guild Wars 2, because people want to isolate instead of create community cohesion.

It truly is an interesting difference in sociology to evaluate. The difference between how things work IRL vs. an online video game, and why.

So, if I was now to make the case that every person you walk up to is unsocial because they might not be interested to teach you a board game right at that very moment in time, I'd have a strong argument?

Yes, friends or family teach each other new board games. It's a social interaction. Or people go to comic/board game/trading card game shops and play and teach others. That's on their terms. That is akin to taking a guild member along or doing a training run.

At no point in time does this happen though when the other party is not interested or lacking time.

The differences between RL and online video game are not that different, IF one accounts for the fact that in RL you have spacial distance which manages interest and goals. In online games you do not since it's basically a binar state: online or offline.

All you have to imagine is this:Players who are not in the mood to train others are basically not in your spacial vacinity. In real lifey, you wouldn't have met them at that point in time, aka they wouldn'thave shown up to that game night. If you want something from them, do so at the appropriate time and place, just as you would when interacting with them im real life. Easy peasy.

This conversation has somehow deviated far far away from where it started.

My OP post was never about player reluctance to take the time and effort to train someone new.

My OP post was about experienced players discriminating against experienced players because someone has 9000 LIs and someone else only has 6000.

A veteran wanting to get his clear done quickly on a night rather than taking hours and hours to train new players is certainly reasonable. But veterans discriminating against other veterans over some diminutive difference in skill value, could only be viewed as ridiculous at best.

Big difference there.

9000 and 6000 LIs? I guess making an unrealistic assumption to judge a community isn't ridiculous to you.

Kill Proofs simply represent a means to bypass the trust barrier when strangers joining a squad for something that is only meant for players of a certain skill level. Even eliminating all KPs doesn't meant there won't be trust issues among different level of players, veteran players will still find a way to filter out undesired players in order to make the squad functional.

Either way, I don't see experienced and skilled players with low KPs getting kicked often either, these people often communicate well, and know their role enough to convince the squad leader.

And finally, what is the point in this thread?It's not going to convince any veteran Raid commanders because obviously you're not part of that crowd. Nor would anyone here to convince you otherwise. Continuously complaining in the forum wouldn't change the outcome nor the practice that's already been going on for years. It's what you CAN do inside the game that matters.

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@"Sobx.1758" said:Soooooo we're repeating this thread?https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/119910/impossible-for-new-players-raids/

It's not tedious to learn, if you want to learn and get into raiding you will. If you don't want to learn, then you have noone and nothing to blame."KPs bad in low pop" -maybe, but then again maybe not. Seeing how all it does is providing the way to distinguish players that are experienced/inexperienced (not a fool-proof method, sure, but it's... something), I'm not sure not having kps would somehow make anything better. You'd get into raid party, instantly show you don't know what is happening and get kicked.

^ Exactly

@Vilin.8056 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:No, other games invalidate old content allowing skill less players to have a sense of success by beating content which otherwise would be unbeatable to them at a later point. Or they introduce difficulty tiers which are barely above free loot, to make even the worst players feel accomplished.

Nox100. I agree but you're moving what i was saying a different direction. The refresh helps make getting into groups easier.

No, it doesn't. Players who did not properly tackle challenging content gain NOTHING with gear depreciation in other MMOs in regards to improving game skill wise. What they gain is the ability to out-gear old content and experience it.

In that regard GW2 is actually superior. There is no required "cut-off" point one has to wait for. If you want to take on challenging content, you can start doing so at any point in time. Most often all it requires is a different approach to content in this game, often ideally paired with a more social approach and making contacts, but even that is only beneficial and not needed.

Simply put:If you lacked the knowledge, experience and underlying understanding how to approach challenging content, you are/were in the exact same spot in every other MMO even after a new gear set.

@Cyninja.2954 said:We have that in GW2. We have that in lower tier fractals. What we do not have is the gear deprecation and dumbing down of content to the same extent, though power creep is certainly present.

If you want to be successful in other MMOs and take on challenging content, the approach there is exactly the same as here: join a guild, practice, improve, succeed.

What % of guilds are doing progression runs?

Irrelevant in that most players who want to get into CMs never even take that approach. They demand others take them "as is" via LFG groups. You are demanding just that in this very thread. I linked you youtube video of a fractal training guild member/leader. There obviously are discord and guilds.

Even if not, here is what I did:I asked guildies in one of my more casual guilds which were already doing T4 semi regularly if they would be interested in-trying CMs. I did so AFTER actually spending a ton of time as duo with a friend in learning how to run CMs. I trained up 3 roster worth of guildies to be able to run CMs because eventually people don't have time or take a break from the game or fractals, etc.

The point is: the key in succeeding at this content is playing with other players regularly.

@Firebeard.1746 said:As for your comment on time, if nourishing the community around raiding is too time consuming then the game mode isn't sustainable.

No, a game mode becomes unsustainable if the amount of players playing it drops to far or the developers decide that they have to move on due to technical reasons (dungeons were by far not underpopulated but a mess code wise) which is far more related to updates that content receives.

Nourishing happens, just not the way you like it: between random parties all the time constantly. It happens in social groups of different degree most of the time.

I agree with you.It seems to me people always seem to confuse being friendly with being social.

People don't just stroll to random people playing boardgames and ask then to teach it to them.

Actually, that is usually how people learn new board games or card games. You go somewhere and people are playing a game and they want you to play so they sit you down and teach you. I've been watching it happen for 35+ years.

I have never once sat down and read a ruleset for monopoly or scrabble or poker or hearts, nor basketball or soccer or baseball. I learned these games because there were people around who wanted to get others involved in them, rather than push them away.

Strangely enough, I can't help to imagen that people wanting to teach other people these games, must have something to do with why these games are undying and have stood the test of time. And as much can be said in contrast for why raids are dying Guild Wars 2, because people want to isolate instead of create community cohesion.

It truly is an interesting difference in sociology to evaluate. The difference between how things work IRL vs. an online video game, and why.

So, if I was now to make the case that every person you walk up to is unsocial because they might not be interested to teach you a board game right at that very moment in time, I'd have a strong argument?

Yes, friends or family teach each other new board games. It's a social interaction. Or people go to comic/board game/trading card game shops and play and teach others. That's on their terms. That is akin to taking a guild member along or doing a training run.

At no point in time does this happen though when the other party is not interested or lacking time.

The differences between RL and online video game are not that different, IF one accounts for the fact that in RL you have spacial distance which manages interest and goals. In online games you do not since it's basically a binar state: online or offline.

All you have to imagine is this:Players who are not in the mood to train others are basically not in your spacial vacinity. In real lifey, you wouldn't have met them at that point in time, aka they wouldn'thave shown up to that game night. If you want something from them, do so at the appropriate time and place, just as you would when interacting with them im real life. Easy peasy.

This conversation has somehow deviated far far away from where it started.

My OP post was never about player reluctance to take the time and effort to train someone new.

My OP post was about experienced players discriminating against experienced players because someone has 9000 LIs and someone else only has 6000.

A veteran wanting to get his clear done quickly on a night rather than taking hours and hours to train new players is certainly reasonable. But veterans discriminating against other veterans over some diminutive difference in skill value, could only be viewed as ridiculous at best.

Big difference there.

9000 and 6000 LIs? I guess making an unrealistic assumption to judge a community isn't ridiculous to you.

Kill Proofs simply represent a means to bypass the trust barrier when strangers joining a squad for something that is only meant for players of a certain skill level. Even eliminating all KPs doesn't meant there won't be trust issues among different level of players, veteran players will still find a way to filter out undesired players in order to make the squad functional.

^ Exactly

So what you're looking at without KPs, is that everyone gets a chance to prove themselves at least once. And then players can remember each other by account/character name. This is a much more realistic gauge of actual efficiency level, regardless of how many KPs a person has or does not have or is willing to fake ping. Removing KPs entirely would usher in a short phase of the community reevaluating everyone from a true skill standpoint like this, rather than a KP number. Some players may find this to be a frustrating phase, but it would serve as a remedy for the lack of raid participation in general.

Look, you've got 3 different types of players when it comes to raids, concerning level of efficiency. 1) You have experienced players who have been doing it for a long time. 2) You have good players who are willing to watch videos and try hard, who know they as an individual are good enough to learn quickly even though they are inexperienced. 3) You have players doing everything wrong, who won't ever get much done. Now what you have happening with a KP system such as LIs, is that the system is good at distinguishing player type 1 from 2 & 3, but it is not good at distinguishing player type 2 from 3. The player type 1 then builds a wall of KPs around itself, to block out type 2 and type 3, so that runs are faster and more efficient, which works great in higher population. In a higher population there are plenty of 1s to maintain a sound active player base inside of the KP fortress, and there are enough 2s showing up on the scene to find each other and eventually build other fortresses in other places. However, with low population the active numbers inside the type 1 fortress begin to dwindle, and rather than lower the KP gates to allow more in, for some reason the KP gate keeps getting higher. Outside of the gates, the type 2s are also in lower population, and it is becoming much much more difficult for 2s to form groups of 2s. So new 2s show up on the scene and can't get into the gates of the KP walls, so they are forced to play with 3s. When the 2s are forced to play with 3s, even though the 2s know the content and are ready to complete it to build KPs, they can't. Then the 2s end up deciding the raids are neither fun or worth the time to organize. <- This is because there aren't enough 2s to play with and the 1s rarely let them in either. And then the participation rates and population in general, dies off.

Some of you are still not identifying this, and some of you are actively trying to fight this fact. The fact of the matter is, that wall of Kill Proofs and the eminence front that it is, in most cases prevents types 1s from bringing in type 2s, and it prevents type 2s from playing with type 1s so they maintain interest and stick around.

This isn't a hypothesis. This is certainly what is happening and as much is obvious to anyone who takes the time to seriously evaluate it.

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@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@"Sobx.1758" said:Soooooo we're repeating this thread?

It's not tedious to learn, if you want to learn and get into raiding you will. If you don't want to learn, then you have noone and nothing to blame."KPs bad in low pop" -maybe, but then again maybe not. Seeing how all it does is providing the way to distinguish players that are experienced/inexperienced (not a fool-proof method, sure, but it's... something), I'm not sure not having kps would somehow make anything better. You'd get into raid party, instantly show you don't know what is happening and get kicked.

^ Exactly

@Cyninja.2954 said:No, other games invalidate old content allowing skill less players to have a sense of success by beating content which otherwise would be unbeatable to them at a later point. Or they introduce difficulty tiers which are barely above free loot, to make even the worst players feel accomplished.

Nox100. I agree but you're moving what i was saying a different direction. The refresh helps make getting into groups easier.

No, it doesn't. Players who did not properly tackle challenging content gain NOTHING with gear depreciation in other MMOs in regards to improving game skill wise. What they gain is the ability to out-gear old content and experience it.

In that regard GW2 is actually superior. There is no required "cut-off" point one has to wait for. If you want to take on challenging content, you can start doing so at any point in time. Most often all it requires is a different approach to content in this game, often ideally paired with a more social approach and making contacts, but even that is only beneficial and not needed.

Simply put:If you lacked the knowledge, experience and underlying understanding how to approach challenging content, you are/were in the exact same spot in every other MMO even after a new gear set.

@Cyninja.2954 said:We have that in GW2. We have that in lower tier fractals. What we do not have is the gear deprecation and dumbing down of content to the same extent, though power creep is certainly present.

If you want to be successful in other MMOs and take on challenging content, the approach there is exactly the same as here: join a guild, practice, improve, succeed.

What % of guilds are doing progression runs?

Irrelevant in that most players who want to get into CMs never even take that approach. They demand others take them "as is" via LFG groups. You are demanding just that in this very thread. I linked you youtube video of a fractal training guild member/leader. There obviously are discord and guilds.

Even if not, here is what I did:I asked guildies in one of my more casual guilds which were already doing T4 semi regularly if they would be interested in-trying CMs. I did so AFTER actually spending a ton of time as duo with a friend in learning how to run CMs. I trained up 3 roster worth of guildies to be able to run CMs because eventually people don't have time or take a break from the game or fractals, etc.

The point is: the key in succeeding at this content is playing with other players regularly.

@Firebeard.1746 said:As for your comment on time, if nourishing the community around raiding is too time consuming then the game mode isn't sustainable.

No, a game mode becomes unsustainable if the amount of players playing it drops to far or the developers decide that they have to move on due to technical reasons (dungeons were by far not underpopulated but a mess code wise) which is far more related to updates that content receives.

Nourishing happens, just not the way you like it: between random parties all the time constantly. It happens in social groups of different degree most of the time.

I agree with you.It seems to me people always seem to confuse being friendly with being social.

People don't just stroll to random people playing boardgames and ask then to teach it to them.

Actually, that is usually how people learn new board games or card games. You go somewhere and people are playing a game and they want you to play so they sit you down and teach you. I've been watching it happen for 35+ years.

I have never once sat down and read a ruleset for monopoly or scrabble or poker or hearts, nor basketball or soccer or baseball. I learned these games because there were people around who wanted to get others involved in them, rather than push them away.

Strangely enough, I can't help to imagen that people wanting to teach other people these games, must have something to do with why these games are undying and have stood the test of time. And as much can be said in contrast for why raids are dying Guild Wars 2, because people want to isolate instead of create community cohesion.

It truly is an interesting difference in sociology to evaluate. The difference between how things work IRL vs. an online video game, and why.

So, if I was now to make the case that every person you walk up to is unsocial because they might not be interested to teach you a board game right at that very moment in time, I'd have a strong argument?

Yes, friends or family teach each other new board games. It's a social interaction. Or people go to comic/board game/trading card game shops and play and teach others. That's on their terms. That is akin to taking a guild member along or doing a training run.

At no point in time does this happen though when the other party is not interested or lacking time.

The differences between RL and online video game are not that different, IF one accounts for the fact that in RL you have spacial distance which manages interest and goals. In online games you do not since it's basically a binar state: online or offline.

All you have to imagine is this:Players who are not in the mood to train others are basically not in your spacial vacinity. In real lifey, you wouldn't have met them at that point in time, aka they wouldn'thave shown up to that game night. If you want something from them, do so at the appropriate time and place, just as you would when interacting with them im real life. Easy peasy.

This conversation has somehow deviated far far away from where it started.

My OP post was never about player reluctance to take the time and effort to train someone new.

My OP post was about experienced players discriminating against experienced players because someone has 9000 LIs and someone else only has 6000.

A veteran wanting to get his clear done quickly on a night rather than taking hours and hours to train new players is certainly reasonable. But veterans discriminating against other veterans over some diminutive difference in skill value, could only be viewed as ridiculous at best.

Big difference there.

9000 and 6000 LIs? I guess making an unrealistic assumption to judge a community isn't ridiculous to you.

Kill Proofs simply represent a means to bypass the trust barrier when strangers joining a squad for something that is only meant for players of a certain skill level. Even eliminating all KPs doesn't meant there won't be trust issues among different level of players, veteran players will still find a way to filter out undesired players in order to make the squad functional.

^ Exactly

So what you're looking at without KPs, is that everyone gets a chance to prove themselves at least once. And then players can remember each other by account/character name. This is a much more realistic gauge of actual efficiency level, regardless of how many KPs a person has or does not have or is willing to fake ping. Removing KPs entirely would usher in a short phase of the community reevaluating everyone from a true skill standpoint like this, rather than a KP number. Some players may find this to be a frustrating phase, but it would serve as a remedy for the lack of raid participation in general.

Look, you've got 3 different types of players when it comes to raids, concerning level of efficiency. 1) You have experienced players who have been doing it for a long time. 2) You have good players who are willing to watch videos and try hard, who know they as an individual are good enough to learn quickly even though they are inexperienced. 3) You have players doing everything wrong, who won't ever get much done. Now what you have happening with a KP system such as LIs, is that the system is good at distinguishing player type 1 from 2 & 3, but it is not good at distinguishing player type 2 from 3. The player type 1 then builds a wall of KPs around itself, to block out type 2 and type 3, so that runs are faster and more efficient, which works great in higher population. In a higher population there are plenty of 1s to maintain a sound active player base inside of the KP fortress, and there are enough 2s showing up on the scene to find each other and eventually build other fortresses in other places. However, with low population the active numbers inside the type 1 fortress begin to dwindle, and rather than lower the KP gates to allow more in, for some reason the KP gate keeps getting higher. Outside of the gates, the type 2s are also in lower population, and it is becoming much much more difficult for 2s to form groups of 2s. So new 2s show up on the scene and can't get into the gates of the KP walls, so they are forced to play with 3s. When the 2s are forced to play with 3s, even though the 2s know the content and are ready to complete it to build KPs, they can't. Then the 2s end up deciding the raids are neither fun or worth the time to organize. <- This is because there aren't enough 2s to play with and the 1s rarely let them in either. And then the participation rates and population in general, dies off.

Some of you are still not identifying this, and some of you are actively trying to fight this fact. The fact of the matter is, that wall of Kill Proofs and the eminence front that it is, in most cases prevents types 1s from bringing in type 2s, and it prevents type 2s from playing with type 1s so they maintain interest and stick around.

This isn't a hypothesis. This is certainly what is happening and as much is obvious to anyone who takes the time to seriously evaluate it.

The 2s can do what you say no kp will do.Group together use friend list to add good people and build up a big enough nr of 2 to play with right?

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@Linken.6345 said:

@"Sobx.1758" said:Soooooo we're repeating this thread?

It's not tedious to learn, if you want to learn and get into raiding you will. If you don't want to learn, then you have noone and nothing to blame."KPs bad in low pop" -maybe, but then again maybe not. Seeing how all it does is providing the way to distinguish players that are experienced/inexperienced (not a fool-proof method, sure, but it's... something), I'm not sure not having kps would somehow make anything better. You'd get into raid party, instantly show you don't know what is happening and get kicked.

^ Exactly

@Cyninja.2954 said:No, other games invalidate old content allowing skill less players to have a sense of success by beating content which otherwise would be unbeatable to them at a later point. Or they introduce difficulty tiers which are barely above free loot, to make even the worst players feel accomplished.

Nox100. I agree but you're moving what i was saying a different direction. The refresh helps make getting into groups easier.

No, it doesn't. Players who did not properly tackle challenging content gain NOTHING with gear depreciation in other MMOs in regards to improving game skill wise. What they gain is the ability to out-gear old content and experience it.

In that regard GW2 is actually superior. There is no required "cut-off" point one has to wait for. If you want to take on challenging content, you can start doing so at any point in time. Most often all it requires is a different approach to content in this game, often ideally paired with a more social approach and making contacts, but even that is only beneficial and not needed.

Simply put:If you lacked the knowledge, experience and underlying understanding how to approach challenging content, you are/were in the exact same spot in every other MMO even after a new gear set.

@Cyninja.2954 said:We have that in GW2. We have that in lower tier fractals. What we do not have is the gear deprecation and dumbing down of content to the same extent, though power creep is certainly present.

If you want to be successful in other MMOs and take on challenging content, the approach there is exactly the same as here: join a guild, practice, improve, succeed.

What % of guilds are doing progression runs?

Irrelevant in that most players who want to get into CMs never even take that approach. They demand others take them "as is" via LFG groups. You are demanding just that in this very thread. I linked you youtube video of a fractal training guild member/leader. There obviously are discord and guilds.

Even if not, here is what I did:I asked guildies in one of my more casual guilds which were already doing T4 semi regularly if they would be interested in-trying CMs. I did so AFTER actually spending a ton of time as duo with a friend in learning how to run CMs. I trained up 3 roster worth of guildies to be able to run CMs because eventually people don't have time or take a break from the game or fractals, etc.

The point is: the key in succeeding at this content is playing with other players regularly.

@Firebeard.1746 said:As for your comment on time, if nourishing the community around raiding is too time consuming then the game mode isn't sustainable.

No, a game mode becomes unsustainable if the amount of players playing it drops to far or the developers decide that they have to move on due to technical reasons (dungeons were by far not underpopulated but a mess code wise) which is far more related to updates that content receives.

Nourishing happens, just not the way you like it: between random parties all the time constantly. It happens in social groups of different degree most of the time.

I agree with you.It seems to me people always seem to confuse being friendly with being social.

People don't just stroll to random people playing boardgames and ask then to teach it to them.

Actually, that is usually how people learn new board games or card games. You go somewhere and people are playing a game and they want you to play so they sit you down and teach you. I've been watching it happen for 35+ years.

I have never once sat down and read a ruleset for monopoly or scrabble or poker or hearts, nor basketball or soccer or baseball. I learned these games because there were people around who wanted to get others involved in them, rather than push them away.

Strangely enough, I can't help to imagen that people wanting to teach other people these games, must have something to do with why these games are undying and have stood the test of time. And as much can be said in contrast for why raids are dying Guild Wars 2, because people want to isolate instead of create community cohesion.

It truly is an interesting difference in sociology to evaluate. The difference between how things work IRL vs. an online video game, and why.

So, if I was now to make the case that every person you walk up to is unsocial because they might not be interested to teach you a board game right at that very moment in time, I'd have a strong argument?

Yes, friends or family teach each other new board games. It's a social interaction. Or people go to comic/board game/trading card game shops and play and teach others. That's on their terms. That is akin to taking a guild member along or doing a training run.

At no point in time does this happen though when the other party is not interested or lacking time.

The differences between RL and online video game are not that different, IF one accounts for the fact that in RL you have spacial distance which manages interest and goals. In online games you do not since it's basically a binar state: online or offline.

All you have to imagine is this:Players who are not in the mood to train others are basically not in your spacial vacinity. In real lifey, you wouldn't have met them at that point in time, aka they wouldn'thave shown up to that game night. If you want something from them, do so at the appropriate time and place, just as you would when interacting with them im real life. Easy peasy.

This conversation has somehow deviated far far away from where it started.

My OP post was never about player reluctance to take the time and effort to train someone new.

My OP post was about experienced players discriminating against experienced players because someone has 9000 LIs and someone else only has 6000.

A veteran wanting to get his clear done quickly on a night rather than taking hours and hours to train new players is certainly reasonable. But veterans discriminating against other veterans over some diminutive difference in skill value, could only be viewed as ridiculous at best.

Big difference there.

9000 and 6000 LIs? I guess making an unrealistic assumption to judge a community isn't ridiculous to you.

Kill Proofs simply represent a means to bypass the trust barrier when strangers joining a squad for something that is only meant for players of a certain skill level. Even eliminating all KPs doesn't meant there won't be trust issues among different level of players, veteran players will still find a way to filter out undesired players in order to make the squad functional.

^ Exactly

So what you're looking at without KPs, is that everyone gets a chance to prove themselves at least once. And then players can remember each other by account/character name. This is a much more realistic gauge of actual efficiency level, regardless of how many KPs a person has or does not have or is willing to fake ping. Removing KPs entirely would usher in a short phase of the community reevaluating everyone from a true skill standpoint like this, rather than a KP number. Some players may find this to be a frustrating phase, but it would serve as a remedy for the lack of raid participation in general.

Look, you've got 3 different types of players when it comes to raids, concerning level of efficiency. 1) You have experienced players who have been doing it for a long time. 2) You have good players who are willing to watch videos and try hard, who know they as an individual are good enough to learn quickly even though they are inexperienced. 3) You have players doing everything wrong, who won't ever get much done. Now what you have happening with a KP system such as LIs, is that the system is good at distinguishing player type 1 from 2 & 3, but it is not good at distinguishing player type 2 from 3. The player type 1 then builds a wall of KPs around itself, to block out type 2 and type 3, so that runs are faster and more efficient, which works great in higher population. In a higher population there are plenty of 1s to maintain a sound active player base inside of the KP fortress, and there are enough 2s showing up on the scene to find each other and eventually build other fortresses in other places. However, with low population the active numbers inside the type 1 fortress begin to dwindle, and rather than lower the KP gates to allow more in, for some reason the KP gate keeps getting higher. Outside of the gates, the type 2s are also in lower population, and it is becoming much much more difficult for 2s to form groups of 2s. So new 2s show up on the scene and can't get into the gates of the KP walls, so they are forced to play with 3s. When the 2s are forced to play with 3s, even though the 2s know the content and are ready to complete it to build KPs, they can't. Then the 2s end up deciding the raids are neither fun or worth the time to organize. <- This is because there aren't enough 2s to play with and the 1s rarely let them in either. And then the participation rates and population in general, dies off.

Some of you are still not identifying this, and some of you are actively trying to fight this fact. The fact of the matter is, that wall of Kill Proofs and the eminence front that it is, in most cases prevents types 1s from bringing in type 2s, and it prevents type 2s from playing with type 1s so they maintain interest and stick around.

This isn't a hypothesis. This is certainly what is happening and as much is obvious to anyone who takes the time to seriously evaluate it.

The 2s can do what you say no kp will do.Group together use friend list to add good people and build up a big enough nr of 2 to play with right?

No, they can't.

There aren't enough 2s to form groups of 2s. I've already stated this. And when the one or two guys who are 2s are forced to play with a bunch of 3s, they lose interest and leave the scene. This is what is happening. I repeat, there are not enough 2s to group into groups of 2s. This is what those inside of the KP fortress are not understanding.

There is a newer thread here -> https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/119910/impossible-for-new-players-raids and many of these statements, including the OP statement, are 100% detailing what I have explained to you here, but in other words.

Again, this is all happening because of the KP wall. 2s are ready to complete content but they can't because they are forced to play with 3s and there aren't enough 2s to go around. Then the 2s lose interest and leave the scene. If the 2s who are ready, were allowed inside the gates, they would have fun and would maintain interest and stay, adding to the population of participants who can complete content. But they will never be allowed into those walls because the rare 2 cannot complete content with groups of 3s, and thus he will never be able to build KP to show. Even if he does occasionally snag an LI here or there, it will take WAY TOO LONG if it is even possible at all, to ever build enough to be "Trusted" in better groups, for the raids to ever be worth his time.

Click on that link I posted and read just the first page. Finest example on the internet of what I've explained in this thread.

And then you get statements like this:

@"Ayrilana.1396" said:The groups that you see requiring LI are those trying to do clears. They're not intended for new players as they would slow things down and even possibly cause a wipe. Those players are free to create their own LFG with specifications that all are welcome. There are also training guilds/discords which will help teach players new to raids.

The thing that the people who dwell within the KP fortress are not understanding, is that there aren't enough 2s for other 2s to play with. And 2s can't get anything done in groups of all 3s, so they leave the scene and don't come back. And this whole thing about "Just join a raid guild" has become a meme blanket statement within this community. The reality of raid guilds is that you get to wait and sit around for 7 days until someone happens to be in the mood to form a party of five type 1s, so they can train five type 2s. And that's if a person is lucky enough to even get a spot in a training run or two for that week. And that's not even guaranteeing the run will even last longer than an hour.

It simply is no where even in the ballpark of practical for new 2s on the scene to stick around. It simply isn't worth the time neither in fun or reward. And this problem is mainly due to the KP fortress community.

Look, you can argue to preserve your KP wall, that's fine. Just understand what I am saying. What I am saying is that there will be more participation in raids if KPs were removed entirely. Whether the elite community likes it or not, whether their runs in the LFG become more difficult or not, it is true.

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@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@"Sobx.1758" said:Soooooo we're repeating this thread?

It's not tedious to learn, if you want to learn and get into raiding you will. If you don't want to learn, then you have noone and nothing to blame."KPs bad in low pop" -maybe, but then again maybe not. Seeing how all it does is providing the way to distinguish players that are experienced/inexperienced (not a fool-proof method, sure, but it's... something), I'm not sure not having kps would somehow make anything better. You'd get into raid party, instantly show you don't know what is happening and get kicked.

^ Exactly

@Cyninja.2954 said:No, other games invalidate old content allowing skill less players to have a sense of success by beating content which otherwise would be unbeatable to them at a later point. Or they introduce difficulty tiers which are barely above free loot, to make even the worst players feel accomplished.

Nox100. I agree but you're moving what i was saying a different direction. The refresh helps make getting into groups easier.

No, it doesn't. Players who did not properly tackle challenging content gain NOTHING with gear depreciation in other MMOs in regards to improving game skill wise. What they gain is the ability to out-gear old content and experience it.

In that regard GW2 is actually superior. There is no required "cut-off" point one has to wait for. If you want to take on challenging content, you can start doing so at any point in time. Most often all it requires is a different approach to content in this game, often ideally paired with a more social approach and making contacts, but even that is only beneficial and not needed.

Simply put:If you lacked the knowledge, experience and underlying understanding how to approach challenging content, you are/were in the exact same spot in every other MMO even after a new gear set.

@Cyninja.2954 said:We have that in GW2. We have that in lower tier fractals. What we do not have is the gear deprecation and dumbing down of content to the same extent, though power creep is certainly present.

If you want to be successful in other MMOs and take on challenging content, the approach there is exactly the same as here: join a guild, practice, improve, succeed.

What % of guilds are doing progression runs?

Irrelevant in that most players who want to get into CMs never even take that approach. They demand others take them "as is" via LFG groups. You are demanding just that in this very thread. I linked you youtube video of a fractal training guild member/leader. There obviously are discord and guilds.

Even if not, here is what I did:I asked guildies in one of my more casual guilds which were already doing T4 semi regularly if they would be interested in-trying CMs. I did so AFTER actually spending a ton of time as duo with a friend in learning how to run CMs. I trained up 3 roster worth of guildies to be able to run CMs because eventually people don't have time or take a break from the game or fractals, etc.

The point is: the key in succeeding at this content is playing with other players regularly.

@Firebeard.1746 said:As for your comment on time, if nourishing the community around raiding is too time consuming then the game mode isn't sustainable.

No, a game mode becomes unsustainable if the amount of players playing it drops to far or the developers decide that they have to move on due to technical reasons (dungeons were by far not underpopulated but a mess code wise) which is far more related to updates that content receives.

Nourishing happens, just not the way you like it: between random parties all the time constantly. It happens in social groups of different degree most of the time.

I agree with you.It seems to me people always seem to confuse being friendly with being social.

People don't just stroll to random people playing boardgames and ask then to teach it to them.

Actually, that is usually how people learn new board games or card games. You go somewhere and people are playing a game and they want you to play so they sit you down and teach you. I've been watching it happen for 35+ years.

I have never once sat down and read a ruleset for monopoly or scrabble or poker or hearts, nor basketball or soccer or baseball. I learned these games because there were people around who wanted to get others involved in them, rather than push them away.

Strangely enough, I can't help to imagen that people wanting to teach other people these games, must have something to do with why these games are undying and have stood the test of time. And as much can be said in contrast for why raids are dying Guild Wars 2, because people want to isolate instead of create community cohesion.

It truly is an interesting difference in sociology to evaluate. The difference between how things work IRL vs. an online video game, and why.

So, if I was now to make the case that every person you walk up to is unsocial because they might not be interested to teach you a board game right at that very moment in time, I'd have a strong argument?

Yes, friends or family teach each other new board games. It's a social interaction. Or people go to comic/board game/trading card game shops and play and teach others. That's on their terms. That is akin to taking a guild member along or doing a training run.

At no point in time does this happen though when the other party is not interested or lacking time.

The differences between RL and online video game are not that different, IF one accounts for the fact that in RL you have spacial distance which manages interest and goals. In online games you do not since it's basically a binar state: online or offline.

All you have to imagine is this:Players who are not in the mood to train others are basically not in your spacial vacinity. In real lifey, you wouldn't have met them at that point in time, aka they wouldn'thave shown up to that game night. If you want something from them, do so at the appropriate time and place, just as you would when interacting with them im real life. Easy peasy.

This conversation has somehow deviated far far away from where it started.

My OP post was never about player reluctance to take the time and effort to train someone new.

My OP post was about experienced players discriminating against experienced players because someone has 9000 LIs and someone else only has 6000.

A veteran wanting to get his clear done quickly on a night rather than taking hours and hours to train new players is certainly reasonable. But veterans discriminating against other veterans over some diminutive difference in skill value, could only be viewed as ridiculous at best.

Big difference there.

9000 and 6000 LIs? I guess making an unrealistic assumption to judge a community isn't ridiculous to you.

Kill Proofs simply represent a means to bypass the trust barrier when strangers joining a squad for something that is only meant for players of a certain skill level. Even eliminating all KPs doesn't meant there won't be trust issues among different level of players, veteran players will still find a way to filter out undesired players in order to make the squad functional.

^ Exactly

So what you're looking at without KPs, is that everyone gets a chance to prove themselves at least once. And then players can remember each other by account/character name. This is a much more realistic gauge of actual efficiency level, regardless of how many KPs a person has or does not have or is willing to fake ping. Removing KPs entirely would usher in a short phase of the community reevaluating everyone from a true skill standpoint like this, rather than a KP number. Some players may find this to be a frustrating phase, but it would serve as a remedy for the lack of raid participation in general.

Look, you've got 3 different types of players when it comes to raids, concerning level of efficiency. 1) You have experienced players who have been doing it for a long time. 2) You have good players who are willing to watch videos and try hard, who know they as an individual are good enough to learn quickly even though they are inexperienced. 3) You have players doing everything wrong, who won't ever get much done. Now what you have happening with a KP system such as LIs, is that the system is good at distinguishing player type 1 from 2 & 3, but it is not good at distinguishing player type 2 from 3. The player type 1 then builds a wall of KPs around itself, to block out type 2 and type 3, so that runs are faster and more efficient, which works great in higher population. In a higher population there are plenty of 1s to maintain a sound active player base inside of the KP fortress, and there are enough 2s showing up on the scene to find each other and eventually build other fortresses in other places. However, with low population the active numbers inside the type 1 fortress begin to dwindle, and rather than lower the KP gates to allow more in, for some reason the KP gate keeps getting higher. Outside of the gates, the type 2s are also in lower population, and it is becoming much much more difficult for 2s to form groups of 2s. So new 2s show up on the scene and can't get into the gates of the KP walls, so they are forced to play with 3s. When the 2s are forced to play with 3s, even though the 2s know the content and are ready to complete it to build KPs, they can't. Then the 2s end up deciding the raids are neither fun or worth the time to organize. <- This is because there aren't enough 2s to play with and the 1s rarely let them in either. And then the participation rates and population in general, dies off.

Some of you are still not identifying this, and some of you are actively trying to fight this fact. The fact of the matter is, that wall of Kill Proofs and the eminence front that it is, in most cases prevents types 1s from bringing in type 2s, and it prevents type 2s from playing with type 1s so they maintain interest and stick around.

This isn't a hypothesis. This is certainly what is happening and as much is obvious to anyone who takes the time to seriously evaluate it.

The 2s can do what you say no kp will do.Group together use friend list to add good people and build up a big enough nr of 2 to play with right?

No, they can't.

There aren't enough 2s to form groups of 2s. I've already stated this. And when the one or two guys who are 2s are forced to play with a bunch of 3s, they lose interest and leave the scene. This is what is happening. I repeat, there are not enough 2s to group into groups of 2s. This is what those inside of the KP fortress are not understanding.

There is a newer thread here ->
and many of these statements, including the OP statement, are 100% detailing what I have explained to you here, but in other words.

Again, this is all happening because of the KP wall. 2s are ready to complete content but they can't because they are forced to play with 3s and there aren't enough 2s to go around. Then the 2s lose interest and leave the scene. If the 2s who are ready, were allowed inside the gates, they would have fun and would maintain interest and stay, adding to the population of participants who can complete content. But they will never be allowed into those walls because the rare 2 cannot complete content with groups of 3s, and thus he will never be able to build KP to show. Even if he does occasionally snag an LI here or there, it will take WAY TOO LONG if it is even possible at all, to ever build enough to be "Trusted" in better groups, for the raids to ever be worth his time.

Click on that link I posted and read just the first page. Finest example on the internet of what I've explained in this thread.

And then you get statements like this:

@"Ayrilana.1396" said:The groups that you see requiring LI are those trying to do clears. They're not intended for new players as they would slow things down and even possibly cause a wipe. Those players are free to create their own LFG with specifications that all are welcome. There are also training guilds/discords which will help teach players new to raids.

The thing that the people who dwell within the KP fortress are not understanding, is that there aren't enough 2s for other 2s to play with. And 2s can't get anything done in groups of all 3s, so they leave the scene and don't come back. And this whole thing about "Just join a raid guild" has become a meme blanket statement within this community. The reality of raid guilds is that you get to wait and sit around for 7 days until someone happens to be in the mood to form a party of five type 1s, so they can train five type 2s. And that's if a person is lucky enough to even get a spot in a training run or two for that week. And that's not even guaranteeing the run will even last longer than an hour.

It simply is no where even in the ballpark of practical for new 2s on the scene to stick around. It simply isn't worth the time neither in fun or reward. And this problem is mainly due to the KP fortress community.

Look, you can argue to preserve your KP wall, that's fine. Just understand what I am saying. What I am saying is that there will be more participation in raids if KPs were removed entirely. Whether the elite community likes it or not, whether their runs in the LFG become more difficult or not, it is true.

Remove KPs or even LIs and new players just hit another wall, if there is a wall that is. Titles, weapon skins, CM boxes, KP website and what not.

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@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:Now what you have happening with a KP system such as LIs, is that the system is good at distinguishing player type 1 from 2 & 3, but it is not good at distinguishing player type 2 from 3.and2s are ready to complete content but they can't because they are forced to play with 3s and there aren't enough 2s to go around.

How do you propose we differentiate between 2s and 3s? Because KP, as you say, is used to separate 1s from 2s and 3s. But how can we put 1s and 2s on the same side, while making sure 3s remain on the other side? Removing KP won't accomplish this.

Let's say there is no KP and players don't find something else to gate others, everyone is welcome. How will the situation of the 2s really change?Let's say, for the sake of argument, that out of 10 players, 2 are 2s and 8 are 3s. Without LI they will all try to join the squads formed for Raids. Given how statistics work, 2s won't get any easier into groups, the spots will be reserved by the 3s. This will lead to frustration for the 1s, as they won't be able to find competenet players and resort to kicking and actively monitoring anyone they invite, frustration by the 3s, which will be kicked and come here and post about toxicity, and frustration by the 2s themselves because they won't be able to get a spot anyway due to them being a minority overshadowed by the 3s.

Eventually, after kicking 4-5 3s, the Raid squads will invite one of the 2s to replace them, but that's all gonna be a colossal waste of time for everyone involved. Or simply "suck it up" and finish the Raid with a few 3s anyway, many squads can finish the encounters with less than 10, which could, again, lead to neglect towards the 2s.

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@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@"Ayrilana.1396" said:There’s a difference between players offering to teach you and expecting all of them to teach you.

Board games are also very different as players are not driven for rewards compared to those doing raids/fractals. Progress for board/card games is nonexistent in the sense that you’re simply playing the game whereas progress in fractals/raids can be slowed or even halted with having new players.

I don't expect all of them to teach me. The teaching doesn't happen enough. If I'm wrong the raiding community would grow. And I'm completely fine with being wrong.The raid community doesn't grow not because there's not enough players wanting to teach, or not enough opportunities to learn. It's because learning process itself is too tedious/painful for a majority of players, which results in not enough players being willing to stick with it to the end. Which is a byproduct of both content difficulty and the skill discrepancies within community. And those are a byproduct of the combat/skill/traits/gear system design Anet decided on.

With whole game as it is, and the content being as it is, Raids being sustainable would require GW2 having way, way bigger playerbase than it has. Possibly even bigger than it ever had (, well, apart from maybe first months of the game, but
without
content locust padding a large part of that number).

I disagree with you. It's not that tedious to learn

It's not that it's tedious to learn, it's that it's tedious to organize.

The point of this thread was to point out that heavy KP expectation exasperates this problem in a low population community.

How do you know that the gw2 raiding community is low ? Did you know that most raiders create statics and never bother with LFG unless they miss someone ? And how to fill the gap of the person that is missing ? I know some "elite" veteran players that don't even save their KP as they got their static and don't need to prove anything to their friends. However someone that wants to join that group to replace him on his occasional abscence should prove his ability to play that one time in his place somehow. And that is when KP comes in handy. It is only useful to players that don't have statics. Without KP they won't be even finding any groups if they don't want to integrate into statics. Because in that case what will happen is that statics will just recruit additional reserve players to fill the occasional gaps. What KP does is saving time. Please stop trashing raiders already. We have got enough hate on us already. We are normal people like you that want to enjoy our games, we don't want to barrier anyone because we are evil, just please make your own groups with no requirements if it is your thing and be happy, we can't gate you from doing that, can we ?

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@Sobx.1758 said:

@"Aridon.8362" said:I disagree with you. It's not that tedious to learnFor you. Rather obviously, the current raiders are mostly those that do find it okay. Because those that thought otherwise more often than not never became the raiders in the first place.

If people aren't willing to learn, there's pretty much nothing you or anet can do to make them want to learn.If you took the effort to read what i said before, instead of quoting it out, you'd see that i do agree with this.

To quote my earlier statement:

The raid community doesn't grow not because there's not enough players wanting to teach, or not enough opportunities to learn. It's because learning process itself is too tedious/painful for a majority of players, which results in not enough players being willing to stick with it to the end.

So, basically, it's what you said, but with a small (but not unimportant) addition:"If people aren't willing to learn the content as it is now, there's pretty much nothing you or anet can do to make them want to learn, without making changes to the content itself".

@Armen.1483 said:How do you know that the gw2 raiding community is low ?Well, that's what the devs told us. It's low enough they don't feel justified to make more raid content anymore, at the very least.

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@Astralporing.1957 said:

@"Armen.1483" said:How do you know that the gw2 raiding community is low ?Well, that's what the devs told us. It's low enough they don't feel justified to make more raid content anymore, at the very least.

Any
official
quotes ? What I have read is that they have abandonned raids to concentrate into LW for the moment, but no reasons were given. And the "low cummunity" part was assumed by the players. And even if that were true, that would not be the cause, but the concequence.

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@Armen.1483 said:

@"Ayrilana.1396" said:There’s a difference between players offering to teach you and expecting all of them to teach you.

Board games are also very different as players are not driven for rewards compared to those doing raids/fractals. Progress for board/card games is nonexistent in the sense that you’re simply playing the game whereas progress in fractals/raids can be slowed or even halted with having new players.

I don't expect all of them to teach me. The teaching doesn't happen enough. If I'm wrong the raiding community would grow. And I'm completely fine with being wrong.The raid community doesn't grow not because there's not enough players wanting to teach, or not enough opportunities to learn. It's because learning process itself is too tedious/painful for a majority of players, which results in not enough players being willing to stick with it to the end. Which is a byproduct of both content difficulty and the skill discrepancies within community. And those are a byproduct of the combat/skill/traits/gear system design Anet decided on.

With whole game as it is, and the content being as it is, Raids being sustainable would require GW2 having way, way bigger playerbase than it has. Possibly even bigger than it ever had (, well, apart from maybe first months of the game, but
without
content locust padding a large part of that number).

I disagree with you. It's not that tedious to learn

It's not that it's tedious to learn, it's that it's tedious to organize.

The point of this thread was to point out that heavy KP expectation exasperates this problem in a low population community.

How do you know that the gw2 raiding community is low ? Did you know that most raiders create statics and never bother with LFG unless they miss someone ? And how to fill the gap of the person that is missing ? I know some "elite" veteran players that don't even save their KP as they got their static and don't need to prove anything to their friends. However someone that wants to join that group to replace him on his occasional abscence should prove his ability to play that one time in his place somehow. And that is when KP comes in handy. It is only useful to players that don't have statics. Without KP they won't be even finding any groups if they don't want to integrate into statics. Because in that case what will happen is that statics will just recruit additional reserve players to fill the occasional gaps. What KP does is saving time. Please stop trashing raiders already. We have got enough hate on us already. We are normal people like you that want to enjoy our games, we don't want to barrier anyone because we are evil, just please make your own groups with no requirements if it is your thing and be happy, we can't gate you from doing that, can we ?

"Don't trash us we are normal players""Its their fault , for not having enough KP...- not working enough... to join us :P"https://www.thebeaverton.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/rich-guys-wealthy-snob-men-cigars-800x563.jpg

The company should reward , with the Partner program the Training Guilds , insteadThey should also half the rewards , forcing the Raid community to Raid twice per week + their alts .While the Training Guilds will need one

Or joining LFG a representative from that Guild , he cannot type anything in that description , welcoming anyone + rewards are increased +difficulty is reducedAt 50% Hp of the last boss , the damage reduction buff is removed >wipping>getting the lesser reward >having a taste for the boss >try harder next time or see the cutscene on youtube

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@Armen.1483 said:

@Armen.1483 said:How do you know that the gw2 raiding community is low ?Well, that's what the devs told us. It's low enough they don't feel justified to make more raid content anymore, at the very least.

Any
official
quotes ?Sure.

Andrew flat out says here that raids attract small audience, and that this small audience is a challenge to devs wanting to support the content.

Notice also, that when devs say things on forums that players might not like, they prefer to be as subtle as possible and not close any doors if they absolutely don't have to. So, if a dev on GW2 forum says that "the biggest challenge in creating more (raids) is the small audience they attract", you can safely interpret it as trying to nicely say "there's just not enough of you for us to justify making more raids".This is of course my interpretation - if you want to interpret abovementioned quotes as anything but an admission that raid community is low enough that GW2 devs are uncomfortable with it, then be my guest, but i'd have to say you would be grasping at straws.

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@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:Now what you have happening with a KP system such as LIs, is that the system is good at distinguishing player type 1 from 2 & 3, but it is not good at distinguishing player type 2 from 3.and2s are ready to complete content but they can't because they are forced to play with 3s and there aren't enough 2s to go around.

How do you propose we differentiate between 2s and 3s? Because KP, as you say, is used to separate 1s from 2s and 3s. But how can we put 1s and 2s on the same side, while making sure 3s remain on the other side? Removing KP won't accomplish this.

Yes it would. For every reason I already stated. I already explained how it differentiates between 2s and 3s, through raw natural organic evaluation, in the same way I would judge if guys were good or bad at basketball, only after I showed up on a court and played with them. This way everyone gets a chance to at least play.

Some of you guys are still missing the point here. I'm not stating that this is a better system. I am stating that it would increase raid participation rates. I'm stating that current population & participation rates are so low because players are waiting waaaay too long in line before getting to take a ride, and this is because of KPs.

@Armen.1483 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:There’s a difference between players offering to teach you and expecting all of them to teach you.

Board games are also very different as players are not driven for rewards compared to those doing raids/fractals. Progress for board/card games is nonexistent in the sense that you’re simply playing the game whereas progress in fractals/raids can be slowed or even halted with having new players.

I don't expect all of them to teach me. The teaching doesn't happen enough. If I'm wrong the raiding community would grow. And I'm completely fine with being wrong.The raid community doesn't grow not because there's not enough players wanting to teach, or not enough opportunities to learn. It's because learning process itself is too tedious/painful for a majority of players, which results in not enough players being willing to stick with it to the end. Which is a byproduct of both content difficulty and the skill discrepancies within community. And those are a byproduct of the combat/skill/traits/gear system design Anet decided on.

With whole game as it is, and the content being as it is, Raids being sustainable would require GW2 having way, way bigger playerbase than it has. Possibly even bigger than it ever had (, well, apart from maybe first months of the game, but
without
content locust padding a large part of that number).

I disagree with you. It's not that tedious to learn

It's not that it's tedious to learn, it's that it's tedious to organize.

The point of this thread was to point out that heavy KP expectation exasperates this problem in a low population community.

How do you know that the gw2 raiding community is low ?

Oh please

@Armen.1483 said:

@Armen.1483 said:How do you know that the gw2 raiding community is low ?Well, that's what the devs told us. It's low enough they don't feel justified to make more raid content anymore, at the very least.

Any
official
quotes ? What I have read is that they have abandonned raids to concentrate into LW for the moment, but no reasons were given. And the "low cummunity" part was assumed by the players. And even if that were true, that would not be the cause, but the concequence.

You don't need official statements or a world renowned scientific researcher to explain the obvious.

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You can't change people's behaviour, no matter what barriers you remove for people to audit other players with there will always be something they can use to exclude those with less experience. You are never going to be able to alter the culture of gaming to fix a problem that exists in all mmo's when concerned with more difficult content.

Now if you personally think that kp is a bad thing then ignore it, make no kp groups and move on with your life. If you can only play in really off-peak hours on an mmo then low playerbase and difficulty forming groups is also something you need to accept. Even WoW is very difficult to form groups for anything at 2-3 am.

I feel like people keep telling the same anecdotal type stories when it comes to KP or raids in general and it's always to be some kind of "gotcha" moment to try to call out the entire community for not behaving the way you want.

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@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:This way everyone gets a chance to at least play.

And this is what I pointed out to you. Your "2s" will still have a very low chance of playing anyway. It will go like this:Let's pretend we have a team of 9 people looking for their 10th. Let's also pretend the team won't find another way to filter players (we all know they would, but let's play along shall we?) so, as you say, every gets a chance.

Step 1: Open a "no requirements" LFGStep 2: We have 2 possible outcomes here:Step 2a: Team gets one of the 2s, team succeeds, everyone is happy. Huray!orStep 2b: Team gets one of the 3s. Now this splits into 2 possible outcomes again:Step 3a: Team succeeds anyway. The "3" manages to hide their incompetence through seer luck (no important mechanic used on them) or they weren't as much of a "3" after all.orStep 3b: Team fails. The "3" will get the blame anyway (even if it wasn't their fault), will be kicked, and the team will go back to step one.

Since we already know that 3s will be the overwhelming majority, I don't think anyone can dispute this, we can see just how low the chances of a "2" will be in getting in a team anyway.

through raw natural organic evaluation

This is called a gigantic waste of time for everyone involved. You expect a team to "open up", get any rando out there, with the highest possibility, as already explained, of them being a useless player, "evaluate" them and then what? Create a gigantic block list of all the 3s you meet, so you don't have to evaluate them again, and expand your friend list with all the 2s you meet so you can invite them again later?

Some of you guys are still missing the point here. I'm not stating that this is a better system. I am stating that it would increase raid participation rates. I'm stating that current population & participation rates are so low because players are waiting waaaay too long in line before getting to take a ride, and this is because of KPs.

It wouldn't increase raid participation rates though. That will depend on how much time those making the teams would be willing to waste every time they want to Raid. At some point they will simply give up and either stop raiding altogether, or try to raid only if they have a full team. And that's all assuming that the teams won't try to find another way to exclude/filter other players so as not to waste their time.

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@"Psykewne.3025" said:You can't change people's behaviour, no matter what barriers you remove

Are you sure though? Or are you so caught up in your current perspective that you have not well excavated the truths of another?

What you said in your response is like saying:

"Adding or removing a button in-game that allowed players to automatically DC each other, would not make a difference in the amount of players who were automatically DCing each other." <- and this couldn't be further from the truth because having a code that does this is entirely different than not having a code that does this.

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