Blood Bank: Anet, this is Design Failure

[Anchoku.8142]

@Nimon.7840 said:

@Kodama.6453 said:

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@Apokriphos.7042 said:Necro is missing a single target dps spec. Not to mention that scourge is lacking in support.

^I agree and this has been a sore point among Necromancers since HoT was released and Reaper began cycles of nerfs and buffs.

The irony is that core Necro really is a single-target specialization having the least cleave dps. It had such poor cleave dps it was widely reviled for years. Death Shroud also received recent buffs to its dps, too, so why does core still kind of suck?

[Dadnir.5038]

@"Anchoku.8142" said:Death Shroud also received recent buffs to its dps, too, so why does core still kind of suck?

It's because the profession have a design leaning toward the concept of "outlasting your opponent", translated into something slow in it's skill use but able to take a beating. A dull monster relying more on raw stats than skills use. Minions are basically signets that attack, ANet even try to make signet do the same things than minions (SoV). The incensitive is toward a passive gameplay not a dynamic one, you can't make it do to much damage.

[Taril.8619]

@Anchoku.8142 said:

@Nimon.7840 said:

@Kodama.6453 said:

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@Apokriphos.7042 said:Necro is missing a single target dps spec. Not to mention that scourge is lacking in support.The irony is that core Necro really is a single-target specialization having the least cleave dps. It had such poor cleave dps it was widely reviled for years. Death Shroud also received recent buffs to its dps, too, so why does core still kind of suck?

Well... Core weapons suck.

In order to optimize around Soul Barbs, you'll spend 50% of your time in and out of shroud. Which means half the time you're using your normal weapons.

But if you look at Core weapons... There's Axe 2 for damage and that's it. Then you spend 8 seconds auto attacking before Shroud comes back up. (The reason why Axe is good for Reaper, is they can swap to GS after using Axe 2 and GS is actually a good weapon for damage)

Maybe you try Condi Core... Well, you've got Scepter. And... ??? On top of this, you also have sucky damage while in Shroud as a result due to only having one innate condi damage skill in Shroud 5, otherwise you're relying on all the traits that Scourge uses but without all the advantages Scourge has for Condi damage (Such as the plethora of Torment procs from Shroud 1, 33% Torment damage increase from Demonic Lore, Burning procs from Demonic Lore and Sadistic Searing and Torch offhand as an actually decent weapon) - Even with these buffs to Condi damage, Condi Scourge is still bottom tier DPS, so how's Condi Core ever going to compete...

[Dadnir.5038]

@Taril.8619 said:so how's Condi Core ever going to compete...

Condi core isn't that far from condi scourge and condi reaper. The 3 specs are all close in condi damage.

[Svarty.8019]

@"Obtena.7952" said:

3. Blowing a heal as a combat opener to get maximum impact from this trait is poor design; If people are going to use a heal, it should be to primarily heal, not to trigger a GM trait for an damage mitigation effect that the same heal would provide (and more effectively in some cases) in the first place.

I think this is part of the same muddle-headed thinking that some players might want to put conditions on self.

I don't like the idea of self-harm as a core mechanic.

[Nimon.7840]

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@Taril.8619 said:so how's Condi Core ever going to compete...

Condi core isn't that far from condi scourge and condi reaper. The 3 specs are all close in condi damage.

Only in pvp modes

In pve scourge is at around 29k dps, condi reaper might be a bit above. But the last test I did, core was below 20k

[Nabbut.7480]

I see that most of the negative comments are coming from endgame/PvP elitists.Well here's an opinion from PvE lowbie: I like Blood Bank because I dislike taking damage to health, it feels bad.With it now I am able to run into a pack, activate Signet of Locust and take no damage to health. Or Life Siphon a creature while I am running to it and again take no health damage while I shank it. Or use Signet of Vampirism for group support not saving it for self-heal. Or use Lesser Well of Blood to absorb a big boss hit while reviving. The applications are numerous and convenient.

[Laila Lightness.8742]

@Coeruleum.9164 said:My redesign for Blood Bank: Whenever you are healed, you gain a barrier with half the amount of health.Secondary option: Whenever you siphon health, you gain a barrier with an equal amount of health.

These should be tested to see which is better, and if they're equal the devs can just pick the one they like more. Either of these would be infinitely more useful than the current Blood Bank.

Basicly sanctuary runes i want this redesign i could be immortal with sanct runes comboed :)

[Shiyo.3578]

@Kodama.6453 said:

@Crazy.6029 said:It is kind of an odd trait, it is probably going to have some use with the next expansion would be my guess. Extremely flimsy as it is now but as others have said in zergs with heal bot specs just spamming heals it makes you (with a little situational awareness) pretty much unkillable, but it is only for the necro which is weird cause what does it matter if the necro lives longest while the rest of the zerg goes down in that situation. Very weird design direction, that is why I think it might be for the next expansion, but if that is the case then I guess that means necro will play some kind of support role.

I think it might be a bruiser elite spec.

Necro already has a support elite spec with scourge. Reaper is their dps elite spec. What is missing is a bruiser ala scrapper/daredevil.If the next elite spec, for example, has alot of lifesteal, then blood bank might become a good option to increase your survivability even further.

It'll be really silly if NECROMANCER doesn't have a single good condition PvE build still.

@Kodama.6453 said:The reason why Anet still keeps reaper at a lower dps than other classes might be because reapers tend to be better at keeping themselves alive over other professions, especially while playing solo.

Reaper literally benchmarks higher than DH, a spec people constantly complain is "overpowered" in PvE and "everyone plays DH".

https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/guardian/dragonhunter/power/ 33khttps://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/necromancer/reaper/power/ 34k

[Obtena.7952]

@Shiyo.3578 said:

@Kodama.6453 said:

@Crazy.6029 said:It is kind of an odd trait, it is probably going to have some use with the next expansion would be my guess. Extremely flimsy as it is now but as others have said in zergs with heal bot specs just spamming heals it makes you (with a little situational awareness) pretty much unkillable, but it is only for the necro which is weird cause what does it matter if the necro lives longest while the rest of the zerg goes down in that situation. Very weird design direction, that is why I think it might be for the next expansion, but if that is the case then I guess that means necro will play some kind of support role.

I think it might be a bruiser elite spec.

Necro already has a support elite spec with scourge. Reaper is their dps elite spec. What is missing is a bruiser ala scrapper/daredevil.If the next elite spec, for example, has alot of lifesteal, then blood bank might become a good option to increase your survivability even further.

It'll be really silly if NECROMANCER doesn't have a single good condition PvE build still.

Good thing Necro has multiple good Condi PVE builds. The things that prevent Necro from being meta have nothing to do with how much or what kind of DPS it does.

[Dadnir.5038]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@"Shiyo.3578" said:It'll be really silly if NECROMANCER doesn't have a single good condition PvE build still.

Good thing Necro has multiple good Condi PVE builds. The things that prevent Necro from being meta have nothing to do with how much or what kind of DPS it does.

Well yes, the necromancer have the tools for a potential mindblowing condi dps in PvE, unfortunately PvE is designed in such a way that it's impossible to even begin to see this potential dps. The fact that the necromancer's "support" tools ain't especially attractive on top of that close the lid of the coffin.

That's why I'm always asking for boon hate (boon corruption/rip/steal) to proc an answer when it hit defiance (not just the breakbar). That's why I always ask for arena damage on boss to be replaced by slow ramping conditions so that the necromancer can develop it's usefulness through it's existing tools. (That said I'm sure we would get a load of "nerf necro" thread if ANet were to replace the arena power damage by slow ramping conditions.)

[Mormegil.2345]

necro probably has the best self heal amongst all classes and if you mind it tactically, at the end you will call it one of your best grandmaster traits, if it isnt the one. do i have to mention how absurd your survival becomes when siding with a wvw zerg where you get insane amounts of extra heals? lol... im just being immortal with it:Dif theres anything to discuss, imo trait system should change to let you choose your every trait (minors and majors) individually out of lines, basing all upon a point system like you have a total point cap and each trait worth a certain amount of points based on their tier and majority so for example we can choose more than 3 grandmaster majors by sacrificing some minors, and go genius c:im sure there is people like me, hating to have a whole line just for one trait at all. it ignores customizing after certain standards and make no mistake that customizing means almost all the joy that gw2 offers, considering both mechs and style synergies.its actually another topic but im lazy enough to not to start it, i appreciate if anyone else open a discuss for it so anet can feel the pressure of creative players like us all >:)

[Obtena.7952]

@Mormegil.2345 said:necro probably has the best self heal amongst all classes and if you mind it tactically, at the end you will call it one of your best grandmaster traits, if it isnt the one. do i have to mention how absurd your survival becomes when siding with a wvw zerg where you get insane amounts of extra heals?

No you don't ... because I already pointed out that's literally the ONLY place this trait has a use. That's one of the major issues with it ... your survivability SHOULDN'T be absurd in specific situations due to a single GM trait in the first place.

[Anchoku.8142]

@Mormegil.2345 said:necro ... absurd your survival becomes when siding with a wvw zergBalance and trait design fail

if theres anything to discuss, imo trait system should change to let you choose your every trait (minors and majors) individually out of lines, basing all upon a point system like you have a total point cap and each trait worth a certain amount of points based on their tier and majority so for example we can choose more than 3 grandmaster majors by sacrificing some minors, and go genius c:A point-buy system is a balance nightmare Arenanet likely has no budget for or system need for. A huge point of the current trait system is simplifying balance by bundling.

[Agrippa.1693]

@Kodama.6453 said:

@Nimon.7840 said:

@Kodama.6453 said:

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@"Apokriphos.7042" said:Whatever Anets design philosophy for this trait was, it is getting no real use. Even in the niche scenario described above where the entire zergs resources are dedicated to overhealing their necro pre engage, that effect is both extremely wasteful and ultimately pointless due to duration.

If there ever becomes a scenario where a hypothetical zerg consists only of druids and necros using this trait to barrier facetank, it will be swiftly nerfed to the ground.

This redesign needs a redesign.

You just have to look at it for what it is: A 50% increase to the necromancer's health pool that can be sustained in a fight. This is just yet another overpowered trait (due to the already large health pool of the necromancer) within the necromancer WvW niche that's lackluster outside this very niche.

It's a tank trait for a profession that cannot tank due to a lack of stability and utility for it's group. The only area where it can really bloom is in WvW zergling with the support of a heal and someone providing stability/aegis. An area where the necromancer didn't need any buff.

It is a tank trait for a profession that cannot tank

yet

.A third elite spec is coming in the future and it seems likely that the next elite spec for the necromancer will be a bruiser/tank spec ala scrapper/daredevil/spellbreaker.

You still don't understand what reaper is supposed to be, do you?Even though core fits this theme a little bit better in my opinion.

Reaper isn't really a dps spec. Else it would have long been buffed to equal levels dps wise, like all other classes.Necro is missing a single target dps spec. Not to mention that scourge is lacking in support.Kinda every support class got buffed to a point, that you can almost use it in good groups in endgame pve, scourge is the only one that's bad in good groups.You cannot keep up 25might on 10 people, you don't give quickness or alacrity or any other boon, that is asked for in endgame pve. And you can't even play scourge as a full support in wvw.

And this trait, does basically have no synergy with a necro's kit. But I don't believe, that you can make anything out of this trait.It's just a bad implementation disguised as a "new exciting trait" because they wanted to remove the wells trait. Why? Well there was a spvp well reaper that might have performed too good in anets opinion.

So I am holding my judgement for this trait here until the next elite spec is released.

Just because reaper doesn't exactly match the dps of other elite specs does not necessarily mean it isn't supposed to be necromancer's dps elite spec.

Alot of changes they did to reaper over time are showing that Anet intents it to be the dps option for necromancers. They replaced the trait that made reapers take less damage from chilled foes with a trait that gives more damage against chilled foes. Reapers now get permanent quickness while in reaper's shroud. Reapers also get a big load of ferocity while in reaper's shroud.

The reason why Anet still keeps reaper at a lower dps than other classes might be because reapers tend to be better at keeping themselves alive over other professions, especially while playing solo. It doesn't make sense to give them the same damage while they are also having an easier time to stay alive.Not every class needs to do the same thing on the same level. Reaper can be an intended dps elite spec, even if it does less damage than dps elite specs on other classes.This keeps on being a stigma that will never go away I'm afraid, but its'really annoying because it's factually a false statement that I see popping up still, on these forums!It's easy, slap on Marauder (or Trailblazers if you want condi) gear on ANY other class, and it will both outdps the Reaper (because Reaper is

more

than 10% behind in maxdps, while Marauder is about a 10% dps loss) AND you'd be more durable as well!Not to mention the fact that if you use your shroud for survivability, you'd drop

even more

in DPS, so this whole argument is flawed to begin with! I mean, I can slap on Soldier's gear on an Ele, do almost as much damage as a Berserker Reaper that is in "surviving mode" while being far more tankier as well!

[Shroud.2307]

Gain Barrier equal to Bleeding damage applied(?)

[Kodama.6453]

@Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:

@Kodama.6453 said:

@Nimon.7840 said:

@Kodama.6453 said:

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@"Apokriphos.7042" said:Whatever Anets design philosophy for this trait was, it is getting no real use. Even in the niche scenario described above where the entire zergs resources are dedicated to overhealing their necro pre engage, that effect is both extremely wasteful and ultimately pointless due to duration.

If there ever becomes a scenario where a hypothetical zerg consists only of druids and necros using this trait to barrier facetank, it will be swiftly nerfed to the ground.

This redesign needs a redesign.

You just have to look at it for what it is: A 50% increase to the necromancer's health pool that can be sustained in a fight. This is just yet another overpowered trait (due to the already large health pool of the necromancer) within the necromancer WvW niche that's lackluster outside this very niche.

It's a tank trait for a profession that cannot tank due to a lack of stability and utility for it's group. The only area where it can really bloom is in WvW zergling with the support of a heal and someone providing stability/aegis. An area where the necromancer didn't need any buff.

It is a tank trait for a profession that cannot tank

yet

.A third elite spec is coming in the future and it seems likely that the next elite spec for the necromancer will be a bruiser/tank spec ala scrapper/daredevil/spellbreaker.

You still don't understand what reaper is supposed to be, do you?Even though core fits this theme a little bit better in my opinion.

Reaper isn't really a dps spec. Else it would have long been buffed to equal levels dps wise, like all other classes.Necro is missing a single target dps spec. Not to mention that scourge is lacking in support.Kinda every support class got buffed to a point, that you can almost use it in good groups in endgame pve, scourge is the only one that's bad in good groups.You cannot keep up 25might on 10 people, you don't give quickness or alacrity or any other boon, that is asked for in endgame pve. And you can't even play scourge as a full support in wvw.

And this trait, does basically have no synergy with a necro's kit. But I don't believe, that you can make anything out of this trait.It's just a bad implementation disguised as a "new exciting trait" because they wanted to remove the wells trait. Why? Well there was a spvp well reaper that might have performed too good in anets opinion.

So I am holding my judgement for this trait here until the next elite spec is released.

Just because reaper doesn't exactly match the dps of other elite specs does not necessarily mean it isn't supposed to be necromancer's dps elite spec.

Alot of changes they did to reaper over time are showing that Anet intents it to be the dps option for necromancers. They replaced the trait that made reapers take less damage from chilled foes with a trait that gives more damage against chilled foes. Reapers now get permanent quickness while in reaper's shroud. Reapers also get a big load of ferocity while in reaper's shroud.

The reason why Anet still keeps reaper at a lower dps than other classes might be because reapers tend to be better at keeping themselves alive over other professions, especially while playing solo. It doesn't make sense to give them the same damage while they are also having an easier time to stay alive.Not every class needs to do the same thing on the same level. Reaper can be an intended dps elite spec, even if it does less damage than dps elite specs on other classes.This keeps on being a stigma that will never go away I'm afraid, but its'really annoying because it's factually a false statement that I see popping up still, on these forums!It's easy, slap on Marauder (or Trailblazers if you want condi) gear on ANY other class, and it will both outdps the Reaper (because Reaper is

more

than 10% behind in maxdps, while Marauder is about a 10% dps loss) AND you'd be more durable as well!Not to mention the fact that if you use your shroud for survivability, you'd drop

even more

in DPS, so this whole argument is flawed to begin with! I mean, I can slap on Soldier's gear on an Ele, do almost as much damage as a Berserker Reaper that is in "surviving mode" while being far more tankier as well!

Do you have any playtests or numbers to prove that any class running marauder has more survivability than reaper?Because, honestly, I doubt that this is true.

I personally main engineer, so I will go with the power holosmith dps build as an example:That build uses as utility skills rifle turret, laser disk and grenade kit, the elite skill is prime light beam.Traits are: explosives 323, firearms 332 and holosmith 322. Weapons are sword/pistol.

The only survivability this build has are some aling from heat therapy and big boomer and barrier from crystal configuration eclipse. I don't think that this build really has more survivability than a reaper in the meta dps setup.

Reaper has: stability in shroud, projectile block in shroud, damage reduction in shroud (2 times even, 50% damage reduction just from shroud itself and 20% damage reduction additionally from infusing terror), converting 5% of your melee damage into healing. Additionally alot of life force generation from greatsword (which basically can also be seen as some form of healing/barrier). The entire life force mechanic basically is a gigantic barrier in general.

Just looking at these dps setups, I would say that the reaper gets more survivability here.

[Agrippa.1693]

@Kodama.6453 said:

@Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:

@Kodama.6453 said:

@Nimon.7840 said:

@Kodama.6453 said:

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@"Apokriphos.7042" said:Whatever Anets design philosophy for this trait was, it is getting no real use. Even in the niche scenario described above where the entire zergs resources are dedicated to overhealing their necro pre engage, that effect is both extremely wasteful and ultimately pointless due to duration.

If there ever becomes a scenario where a hypothetical zerg consists only of druids and necros using this trait to barrier facetank, it will be swiftly nerfed to the ground.

This redesign needs a redesign.

You just have to look at it for what it is: A 50% increase to the necromancer's health pool that can be sustained in a fight. This is just yet another overpowered trait (due to the already large health pool of the necromancer) within the necromancer WvW niche that's lackluster outside this very niche.

It's a tank trait for a profession that cannot tank due to a lack of stability and utility for it's group. The only area where it can really bloom is in WvW zergling with the support of a heal and someone providing stability/aegis. An area where the necromancer didn't need any buff.

It is a tank trait for a profession that cannot tank

yet

.A third elite spec is coming in the future and it seems likely that the next elite spec for the necromancer will be a bruiser/tank spec ala scrapper/daredevil/spellbreaker.

You still don't understand what reaper is supposed to be, do you?Even though core fits this theme a little bit better in my opinion.

Reaper isn't really a dps spec. Else it would have long been buffed to equal levels dps wise, like all other classes.Necro is missing a single target dps spec. Not to mention that scourge is lacking in support.Kinda every support class got buffed to a point, that you can almost use it in good groups in endgame pve, scourge is the only one that's bad in good groups.You cannot keep up 25might on 10 people, you don't give quickness or alacrity or any other boon, that is asked for in endgame pve. And you can't even play scourge as a full support in wvw.

And this trait, does basically have no synergy with a necro's kit. But I don't believe, that you can make anything out of this trait.It's just a bad implementation disguised as a "new exciting trait" because they wanted to remove the wells trait. Why? Well there was a spvp well reaper that might have performed too good in anets opinion.

So I am holding my judgement for this trait here until the next elite spec is released.

Just because reaper doesn't exactly match the dps of other elite specs does not necessarily mean it isn't supposed to be necromancer's dps elite spec.

Alot of changes they did to reaper over time are showing that Anet intents it to be the dps option for necromancers. They replaced the trait that made reapers take less damage from chilled foes with a trait that gives more damage against chilled foes. Reapers now get permanent quickness while in reaper's shroud. Reapers also get a big load of ferocity while in reaper's shroud.

The reason why Anet still keeps reaper at a lower dps than other classes might be because reapers tend to be better at keeping themselves alive over other professions, especially while playing solo. It doesn't make sense to give them the same damage while they are also having an easier time to stay alive.Not every class needs to do the same thing on the same level. Reaper can be an intended dps elite spec, even if it does less damage than dps elite specs on other classes.This keeps on being a stigma that will never go away I'm afraid, but its'really annoying because it's factually a false statement that I see popping up still, on these forums!It's easy, slap on Marauder (or Trailblazers if you want condi) gear on ANY other class, and it will both outdps the Reaper (because Reaper is

more

than 10% behind in maxdps, while Marauder is about a 10% dps loss) AND you'd be more durable as well!Not to mention the fact that if you use your shroud for survivability, you'd drop

even more

in DPS, so this whole argument is flawed to begin with! I mean, I can slap on Soldier's gear on an Ele, do almost as much damage as a Berserker Reaper that is in "surviving mode" while being far more tankier as well!

Do you have any playtests or numbers to prove that any class running marauder has more survivability than reaper?Because, honestly, I doubt that this is true.

I personally main engineer, so I will go with the power holosmith dps build as an example:That build uses as utility skills rifle turret, laser disk and grenade kit, the elite skill is prime light beam.Traits are: explosives 323, firearms 332 and holosmith 322. Weapons are sword/pistol.

The only survivability this build has are some aling from heat therapy and big boomer and barrier from crystal configuration eclipse. I don't think that this build really has more survivability than a reaper in the meta dps setup.

Reaper has: stability in shroud, projectile block in shroud, damage reduction in shroud (2 times even, 50% damage reduction just from shroud itself and 20% damage reduction additionally from infusing terror), converting 5% of your melee damage into healing. Additionally alot of life force generation from greatsword (which basically can also be seen as some form of healing/barrier). The entire life force mechanic basically is a gigantic barrier in general.

Just looking at these dps setups, I would say that the reaper gets more survivability here.

I know your build quite well actually, it has insane DPS!!!But let me tell you why it's not that far off on the survivability compared to a Reaper: first of all, Engi has innate more armor rating than a Necro (i.e. damage reduction). Secondly, the healing options on an Engi (and also this Holo,) are a LOT better (incl. F1)! Third, You're wearing Marauder and there's actually quite some Barrier application in that build as well (which you know goes well with higher Vitality from Marauder), even if you completely stick to your maxdps rotation! Four: What are you on about on projectile block in shroud? Skill 2 in shroud you don't use, cause it's quite a DPS loss! Technically you don't even suppose to use skill 3 as well, cause it's also a (minor) DPS loss. Like I said before: you're not supposed to go into shroud for surviving if you're there to do DPS: and you're already doing the lowest DPS possible, so if you want to be useful in your role, do DPS!!!Otherwise I could also ask you to change your pistol to a shield (which is btw not even that big of a DPS loss) and/or change Rifle Turret to Spectrum Shield / Hard Light Arena. ... And here it comes: and STILL outdps a Reaper.

[Kodama.6453]

@Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:

@Kodama.6453 said:

@Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:

@Kodama.6453 said:

@Nimon.7840 said:

@Kodama.6453 said:

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@"Apokriphos.7042" said:Whatever Anets design philosophy for this trait was, it is getting no real use. Even in the niche scenario described above where the entire zergs resources are dedicated to overhealing their necro pre engage, that effect is both extremely wasteful and ultimately pointless due to duration.

If there ever becomes a scenario where a hypothetical zerg consists only of druids and necros using this trait to barrier facetank, it will be swiftly nerfed to the ground.

This redesign needs a redesign.

You just have to look at it for what it is: A 50% increase to the necromancer's health pool that can be sustained in a fight. This is just yet another overpowered trait (due to the already large health pool of the necromancer) within the necromancer WvW niche that's lackluster outside this very niche.

It's a tank trait for a profession that cannot tank due to a lack of stability and utility for it's group. The only area where it can really bloom is in WvW zergling with the support of a heal and someone providing stability/aegis. An area where the necromancer didn't need any buff.

It is a tank trait for a profession that cannot tank

yet

.A third elite spec is coming in the future and it seems likely that the next elite spec for the necromancer will be a bruiser/tank spec ala scrapper/daredevil/spellbreaker.

You still don't understand what reaper is supposed to be, do you?Even though core fits this theme a little bit better in my opinion.

Reaper isn't really a dps spec. Else it would have long been buffed to equal levels dps wise, like all other classes.Necro is missing a single target dps spec. Not to mention that scourge is lacking in support.Kinda every support class got buffed to a point, that you can almost use it in good groups in endgame pve, scourge is the only one that's bad in good groups.You cannot keep up 25might on 10 people, you don't give quickness or alacrity or any other boon, that is asked for in endgame pve. And you can't even play scourge as a full support in wvw.

And this trait, does basically have no synergy with a necro's kit. But I don't believe, that you can make anything out of this trait.It's just a bad implementation disguised as a "new exciting trait" because they wanted to remove the wells trait. Why? Well there was a spvp well reaper that might have performed too good in anets opinion.

So I am holding my judgement for this trait here until the next elite spec is released.

Just because reaper doesn't exactly match the dps of other elite specs does not necessarily mean it isn't supposed to be necromancer's dps elite spec.

Alot of changes they did to reaper over time are showing that Anet intents it to be the dps option for necromancers. They replaced the trait that made reapers take less damage from chilled foes with a trait that gives more damage against chilled foes. Reapers now get permanent quickness while in reaper's shroud. Reapers also get a big load of ferocity while in reaper's shroud.

The reason why Anet still keeps reaper at a lower dps than other classes might be because reapers tend to be better at keeping themselves alive over other professions, especially while playing solo. It doesn't make sense to give them the same damage while they are also having an easier time to stay alive.Not every class needs to do the same thing on the same level. Reaper can be an intended dps elite spec, even if it does less damage than dps elite specs on other classes.This keeps on being a stigma that will never go away I'm afraid, but its'really annoying because it's factually a false statement that I see popping up still, on these forums!It's easy, slap on Marauder (or Trailblazers if you want condi) gear on ANY other class, and it will both outdps the Reaper (because Reaper is

more

than 10% behind in maxdps, while Marauder is about a 10% dps loss) AND you'd be more durable as well!Not to mention the fact that if you use your shroud for survivability, you'd drop

even more

in DPS, so this whole argument is flawed to begin with! I mean, I can slap on Soldier's gear on an Ele, do almost as much damage as a Berserker Reaper that is in "surviving mode" while being far more tankier as well!

Do you have any playtests or numbers to prove that any class running marauder has more survivability than reaper?Because, honestly, I doubt that this is true.

I personally main engineer, so I will go with the power holosmith dps build as an example:That build uses as utility skills rifle turret, laser disk and grenade kit, the elite skill is prime light beam.Traits are: explosives 323, firearms 332 and holosmith 322. Weapons are sword/pistol.

The only survivability this build has are some aling from heat therapy and big boomer and barrier from crystal configuration eclipse. I don't think that this build really has more survivability than a reaper in the meta dps setup.

Reaper has: stability in shroud, projectile block in shroud, damage reduction in shroud (2 times even, 50% damage reduction just from shroud itself and 20% damage reduction additionally from infusing terror), converting 5% of your melee damage into healing. Additionally alot of life force generation from greatsword (which basically can also be seen as some form of healing/barrier). The entire life force mechanic basically is a gigantic barrier in general.

Just looking at these dps setups, I would say that the reaper gets more survivability here.

I know your build quite well actually, it has insane DPS!!!But let me tell you why it's not that far off on the survivability compared to a Reaper: first of all, Engi has innate more armor rating than a Necro (i.e. damage reduction). Secondly, the healing options on an Engi (and also this Holo,) are a LOT better (incl. F1)! Third, You're wearing Marauder and there's actually quite some Barrier application in that build as well (which you know goes well with higher Vitality from Marauder), even if you completely stick to your maxdps rotation! Four: What are you on about on projectile block in shroud? Skill 2 in shroud you don't use, cause it's quite a DPS loss! Technically you don't even suppose to use skill 3 as well, cause it's also a (minor) DPS loss. Like I said before: you're not supposed to go into shroud for surviving if you're there to do DPS: and you're already doing the lowest DPS possible, so if you want to be useful in your role, do DPS!!!Otherwise I could also ask you to change your pistol to a shield (which is btw not even that big of a DPS loss) and/or change Rifle Turret to Spectrum Shield / Hard Light Arena. ... And here it comes: and STILL outdps a Reaper.

The thing about reaper's shroud skill 2 is that, even if it is not used in the actual dps rotation, you have the option to use it if you need it to survive.

That's what I am talking about. A holosmith can survive quite well if built for it, like there are also traits to remove conditions in that trait line, more damage reduction (15%) or as you stated, you can switch out utility skills.

But all of this comes with an opportunity cost. These are choices you make, stuff that you actually have to invest utility slots and/or traits into. Reaper's shroud on the other hand comes with quite some survivability baked in without any further investment. As a reaper, you always have stability, damage reduction (2 kinds), projectile block, life force replacing health (which effectively works like a big barrier), etc.

You get this defense by default, without further investment. Holosmith is different. It almost has no inherent survivability at all, it just has the options to pick additional survivability if desired.

And about the innate more armor rating: necromancer has more base health in return.

[Agrippa.1693]

@Kodama.6453 said:

@Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:

@Kodama.6453 said:

@Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:

@Kodama.6453 said:

@Nimon.7840 said:

@Kodama.6453 said:

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@"Apokriphos.7042" said:Whatever Anets design philosophy for this trait was, it is getting no real use. Even in the niche scenario described above where the entire zergs resources are dedicated to overhealing their necro pre engage, that effect is both extremely wasteful and ultimately pointless due to duration.

If there ever becomes a scenario where a hypothetical zerg consists only of druids and necros using this trait to barrier facetank, it will be swiftly nerfed to the ground.

This redesign needs a redesign.

You just have to look at it for what it is: A 50% increase to the necromancer's health pool that can be sustained in a fight. This is just yet another overpowered trait (due to the already large health pool of the necromancer) within the necromancer WvW niche that's lackluster outside this very niche.

It's a tank trait for a profession that cannot tank due to a lack of stability and utility for it's group. The only area where it can really bloom is in WvW zergling with the support of a heal and someone providing stability/aegis. An area where the necromancer didn't need any buff.

It is a tank trait for a profession that cannot tank

yet

.A third elite spec is coming in the future and it seems likely that the next elite spec for the necromancer will be a bruiser/tank spec ala scrapper/daredevil/spellbreaker.

You still don't understand what reaper is supposed to be, do you?Even though core fits this theme a little bit better in my opinion.

Reaper isn't really a dps spec. Else it would have long been buffed to equal levels dps wise, like all other classes.Necro is missing a single target dps spec. Not to mention that scourge is lacking in support.Kinda every support class got buffed to a point, that you can almost use it in good groups in endgame pve, scourge is the only one that's bad in good groups.You cannot keep up 25might on 10 people, you don't give quickness or alacrity or any other boon, that is asked for in endgame pve. And you can't even play scourge as a full support in wvw.

And this trait, does basically have no synergy with a necro's kit. But I don't believe, that you can make anything out of this trait.It's just a bad implementation disguised as a "new exciting trait" because they wanted to remove the wells trait. Why? Well there was a spvp well reaper that might have performed too good in anets opinion.

So I am holding my judgement for this trait here until the next elite spec is released.

Just because reaper doesn't exactly match the dps of other elite specs does not necessarily mean it isn't supposed to be necromancer's dps elite spec.

Alot of changes they did to reaper over time are showing that Anet intents it to be the dps option for necromancers. They replaced the trait that made reapers take less damage from chilled foes with a trait that gives more damage against chilled foes. Reapers now get permanent quickness while in reaper's shroud. Reapers also get a big load of ferocity while in reaper's shroud.

The reason why Anet still keeps reaper at a lower dps than other classes might be because reapers tend to be better at keeping themselves alive over other professions, especially while playing solo. It doesn't make sense to give them the same damage while they are also having an easier time to stay alive.Not every class needs to do the same thing on the same level. Reaper can be an intended dps elite spec, even if it does less damage than dps elite specs on other classes.This keeps on being a stigma that will never go away I'm afraid, but its'really annoying because it's factually a false statement that I see popping up still, on these forums!It's easy, slap on Marauder (or Trailblazers if you want condi) gear on ANY other class, and it will both outdps the Reaper (because Reaper is

more

than 10% behind in maxdps, while Marauder is about a 10% dps loss) AND you'd be more durable as well!Not to mention the fact that if you use your shroud for survivability, you'd drop

even more

in DPS, so this whole argument is flawed to begin with! I mean, I can slap on Soldier's gear on an Ele, do almost as much damage as a Berserker Reaper that is in "surviving mode" while being far more tankier as well!

Do you have any playtests or numbers to prove that any class running marauder has more survivability than reaper?Because, honestly, I doubt that this is true.

I personally main engineer, so I will go with the power holosmith dps build as an example:That build uses as utility skills rifle turret, laser disk and grenade kit, the elite skill is prime light beam.Traits are: explosives 323, firearms 332 and holosmith 322. Weapons are sword/pistol.

The only survivability this build has are some aling from heat therapy and big boomer and barrier from crystal configuration eclipse. I don't think that this build really has more survivability than a reaper in the meta dps setup.

Reaper has: stability in shroud, projectile block in shroud, damage reduction in shroud (2 times even, 50% damage reduction just from shroud itself and 20% damage reduction additionally from infusing terror), converting 5% of your melee damage into healing. Additionally alot of life force generation from greatsword (which basically can also be seen as some form of healing/barrier). The entire life force mechanic basically is a gigantic barrier in general.

Just looking at these dps setups, I would say that the reaper gets more survivability here.

I know your build quite well actually, it has insane DPS!!!But let me tell you why it's not that far off on the survivability compared to a Reaper: first of all, Engi has innate more armor rating than a Necro (i.e. damage reduction). Secondly, the healing options on an Engi (and also this Holo,) are a LOT better (incl. F1)! Third, You're wearing Marauder and there's actually quite some Barrier application in that build as well (which you know goes well with higher Vitality from Marauder), even if you completely stick to your maxdps rotation! Four: What are you on about on projectile block in shroud? Skill 2 in shroud you don't use, cause it's quite a DPS loss! Technically you don't even suppose to use skill 3 as well, cause it's also a (minor) DPS loss. Like I said before: you're not supposed to go into shroud for surviving if you're there to do DPS: and you're already doing the lowest DPS possible, so if you want to be useful in your role, do DPS!!!Otherwise I could also ask you to change your pistol to a shield (which is btw not even that big of a DPS loss) and/or change Rifle Turret to Spectrum Shield / Hard Light Arena. ... And here it comes: and STILL outdps a Reaper.

The thing about reaper's shroud skill 2 is that, even if it is not used in the actual dps rotation, you have the

option

to use it if you need it to survive.

That's what I am talking about. A holosmith can survive quite well if built for it, like there are also traits to remove conditions in that trait line, more damage reduction (15%) or as you stated, you can switch out utility skills.

But all of this comes with an opportunity cost. These are

choices

you make, stuff that you actually have to invest utility slots and/or traits into. Reaper's shroud on the other hand comes with quite some survivability baked in without any further investment. As a reaper, you always have stability, damage reduction (2 kinds), projectile block, life force replacing health (which effectively works like a big barrier), etc.

You get this defense by default, without further investment. Holosmith is different. It almost has no inherent survivability at all, it just has the options to pick additional survivability if desired.

And this is the biggest issue with Necro in general imo: The Necro doesnt have the options / choices that other classes generally do have (like you stated yourself with the Holo)! The only option a Necro has, is just to not touch those abilities in order to do their MaxDPS (which is significantly lower than that of a Holo to begin with). See it as training wheels that a Necro simply can't take off! Which you can as a Holo. Or put them on (with Marauder gear and Shield, and maybe even swapping one Utility skill to a far more defensive one) and STILL have a higher DPS cap than a Necro (about 5%)! Both can then choose to touch their defensive abilities when in dire situations (making them comparable), but if not needed (by proper placement, knowing your class and environment, knowing the encounter, timers, etc.) they can perform their maxDPS rotations: and Reaper will still come out lower (and I know this by own experience, cause like I said before: I'm quite familiar with that Holo setup).So Necro is punished twice here in this example: when a Holo is build by choice for more survivability it still outDPS-es a fully DPS build power Reaper, but that's not it: you can even do more DPS if you want to as a Holo, when you gear yourself optimally and choose to go for less survivability!

And about the innate more armor rating: necromancer has more base health in return.Which in general is less useful in PvE, cause it's only relatively more useful in the case of receiving damaging conditions. The extra AR is relatively more useful in pretty much all other situations when it comes to receiving damage. Next to the fact that in (endgame) PvE, you'd rather not want to take toughness with you as a DPS spec (for tanking reasons), so also in this case that extra AR, is again very welcome!

[Mormegil.2345]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Mormegil.2345 said:necro probably has the best self heal amongst all classes and if you mind it tactically, at the end you will call it one of your best grandmaster traits, if it isnt the one. do i have to mention how absurd your survival becomes when siding with a wvw zerg where you get insane amounts of extra heals?

No you don't ... because I already pointed out that's literally the ONLY place this trait has a use. That's one of the major issues with it ... your survivability SHOULDN'T be absurd in specific situations due to a single GM trait in the first place.

why shouldnt it? gm traits offer the most dynamic approcah, they meant to be based on at the first place. i mean blood line is trash in my opinion but blood bank isnt. it doesnt have to be usefull for every kind of thing, just like most of the other gms.

[Mormegil.2345]

@Anchoku.8142 said:

@Mormegil.2345 said:necro ... absurd your survival becomes when siding with a wvw zergBalance and trait design fail

if theres anything to discuss, imo trait system should change to let you choose your every trait (minors and majors) individually out of lines, basing all upon a point system like you have a total point cap and each trait worth a certain amount of points based on their tier and majority so for example we can choose more than 3 grandmaster majors by sacrificing some minors, and go genius c:A point-buy system is a balance nightmare Arenanet likely has no budget for or system need for. A huge

point

of the current trait system is simplifying balance by bundling.

balance matters only as much as the oppurtunities are limited. when you make it all beyond, meta dies amongst chaos.it is simple as the term of expection is. when you know that you cant expect a certain way that your opponent shouldve been using(thanks to chaotic numbers of ways to build up without trait lines), you also cant be prepared particularly for it. anet acts with hesitation on balance matters, if we take only in game matters ofc. i know that its a tactic of marketing the incomings but anyways if people see that how enormous the range of customization is given, there will be incomers. for their current budget, im sure they already are spending much effort on the nerf oops i mean balance part:Pi think anyone(including you too ofc) can understand that its annoying to be forced to take a bunch of traits that you dont want in order to claim the one you want.

[Obtena.7952]

@Mormegil.2345 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Mormegil.2345 said:necro probably has the best self heal amongst all classes and if you mind it tactically, at the end you will call it one of your best grandmaster traits, if it isnt the one. do i have to mention how absurd your survival becomes when siding with a wvw zerg where you get insane amounts of extra heals?

No you don't ... because I already pointed out that's literally the ONLY place this trait has a use. That's one of the major issues with it ... your survivability SHOULDN'T be absurd in specific situations due to a single GM trait in the first place.

why shouldnt it?

That question doesn't make sense ... you are going to honestly sit here and say it's OK to obtain absurd levels of survival from a single GM trait? You shouldn't be able to get absurd levels of ANYTHING in this game because of one GM trait. I mean, that doesn't stop it from happening ... but I'm pretty sure that Anet gives us THREE GM traits per line because they want the choices they make available to be meaningful to players. Anyone that thinks the situation is fine as is doesn't understand this and isn't qualified to ask why.

Aside from the lack of meaningful choice and other reasons (check my first post) ... there actually is LOTS wrong with how you are portraying this as a non-issue because of how biased you are to it's effect in WvW. I mean, it's arguable that Necro's even needed a trait like this for WvW in the first place. I'm no stranger to Anet's completely thematic approach to balancing but in so few instances have we seen traits so blatantly focused on a specific game mode.

[PedroWins.4371]

Rune of tormenting?

[Dadnir.5038]

@pdrowboi.2870 said:Rune of tormenting?

The necromancer isn't that good at applying torment, sure it can seem overwhelming in WvW but it's mainly because there is a lot of scourges. Mesmer (with scepter) is a lot more reliable when it come to benefiting from this runeset since your clone applying torment proc the heal. All in all rune of tormenting's gain for the scourge is not really worth taking BB, If it's to solo play you'll probably gain more survivability out of the 2 other traits and a more fitting rune than out of BB. If it's in a group, and you got a healer backing you, BB is fine and you probably don't need the runeset anyway.