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Primordus' Rampage


The Greyhawk.9107

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@EdwinLi.1284 said:Primordus is for certain not doing this out of desire for destruction alone because if so then he will not seek to create a world where all life are basically Destroyers and filled with lava.Yet we have not seen Primordus doing anything other than destroying and creating Destroyers to destroy things.As far as we know, Primordus has not corrupted anything yet.If you are thinking of the magma Stone Summit Dwarves, that transformation is not something Primordus did.They accidentally corrupted themselves with Primordus' essence in an attempt to stay alive, rather than becoming stone.

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@Fueki.4753 said:

@EdwinLi.1284 said:Primordus is for certain not doing this out of desire for destruction alone because if so then he will not seek to create a world where all life are basically Destroyers and filled with lava.Yet we have not seen Primordus doing anything other than destroying and creating Destroyers to destroy things.As far as we know, Primordus has
not
corrupted anything yet.If you are thinking of the magma Stone Summit Dwarves, that transformation is
not
something Primordus did.They accidentally corrupted themselves with Primordus' essence in an attempt to stay alive, rather than becoming stone.

I never once thought about the Stone Summit Dwarves because we just never seen them again after that one mission. So I avoid talking about them until further development for them. Worst case Anet may have completely forgotten about the Stone Summit since we have never seen them again after that one mission.

Now back on topic:

There is just too much to be certain yet what Primordus goals are. We know his actions for creating destruction but we yet to look into his mind into why.

It is easier to judge a being through actions alone but harder to understand them only through actions.

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@The Greyhawk.9107 said:

@"Teratus.2859" said:Dunno why some of you guys want Primordus redeemed, if anything I want him to be exactly what we expect him to be.. a being of pure destruction and evil.We already had this redemption not it's fault thing with Kralkatorrik, no need to do that again specially with Primordus.

We've already got Jormag playing the "im not bad really" card while clearly being a bad dragon.For Primordus I want to be dealing with essentially a pure evil, living nuclear bomb who's only agenda is to watch the world burn.That to me makes him far, far more dangerous than any other enemy we've had in Gw2, including the other Elder Dragons and I want to see that represented in the game with us feeling almost completely useless and outclassed compared to him.We came close to something like that with Kralkatorrik but in the end it was just setback after setback.

With Primordus they need to go all the way.. like Smaug in the hobbit when he just flies off and destroys lake town while the heros can do nothing but watch the carnage completely helpless to do anything.. I hope we get something like that with Primordus where we see the cost of our failure through the carnage and destruction he wages on the world and the regret that we once spared his life really kicks us in the gut.I want Dragon's Watch to be brought to the absolute brink of giving up and accepting the end of the world due to witnessing the sheer power of Primordus.

Really only one person brought up "Redeeming" Primordus in this thread, and rather randomly at that. I don't think its something anyone else expects from what is quite literally the embodiment of destruction. Even if that somehow ended up being the case I can't imagine the current iteration of Arenanet being able to write that in a way that was believable.

It's not the first time i've seen the subject raised.

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@Teratus.2859 said:

@Teratus.2859 said:Dunno why some of you guys want Primordus redeemed, if anything I want him to be exactly what we expect him to be.. a being of pure destruction and evil.We already had this redemption not it's fault thing with Kralkatorrik, no need to do that again specially with Primordus.

We've already got Jormag playing the "im not bad really" card while clearly being a bad dragon.For Primordus I want to be dealing with essentially a pure evil, living nuclear bomb who's only agenda is to watch the world burn.That to me makes him far, far more dangerous than any other enemy we've had in Gw2, including the other Elder Dragons and I want to see that represented in the game with us feeling almost completely useless and outclassed compared to him.We came close to something like that with Kralkatorrik but in the end it was just setback after setback.

With Primordus they need to go all the way.. like Smaug in the hobbit when he just flies off and destroys lake town while the heros can do nothing but watch the carnage completely helpless to do anything.. I hope we get something like that with Primordus where we see the cost of our failure through the carnage and destruction he wages on the world and the regret that we once spared his life really kicks us in the gut.I want Dragon's Watch to be brought to the absolute brink of giving up and accepting the end of the world due to witnessing the sheer power of Primordus.

Really only one person brought up "Redeeming" Primordus in this thread, and rather randomly at that. I don't think its something anyone else expects from what is quite literally the embodiment of destruction. Even if that somehow ended up being the case I can't imagine the current iteration of Arenanet being able to write that in a way that was believable.

It's not the first time i've seen the subject raised.

shrugs Can't say I've seen it anywhere else either.

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In my case, it's not really a case of "wanting" anything, so much as being open to the possibility. Just as I was open to the possibility of Jormag being genuine about having had change of approach around the start of the Icebrood Saga, and it was when they started tripping red flags in their dialogue that I concluded that Jormag just regards us as tools rather than allies.

(I note that I do think that Jormag genuinely seeks to preserve things, in their own twisted way... but keep in mind that Zhaitan's obsession also seemed to be a world in which nothing ever truly died, but the 'eternal life' that Zhaitan offered is one that few would choose for themselves. The Frozen have also disproven Jormag's claim that they only give what is asked for, however Faustian the bargain - I'm pretty sure that those civilians did NOT ask to be frozen indefinitely.)

In Primordus' case... we don't know much, largely because Primordus is the Elder Dragon that interacts least with mortals. Even most Destroyers, despite names like "Destroyer Troll" and "Destroyer Harpy", are not actually corrupted regular creatures, but constructs given life by Primordus' power (and in some case, being able to reproduce by laying eggs, something that dragon minions of other dragons seem to generally be unable to do unless they were corrupted while pregnant). Which means we know zilch about Primordus' actual motivations, just his actions.

Technically speaking, we only have Jormag's word that Primordus identifies as male. Given that line about being two sides of a coin that can't see each other directly, Jormag might not even know.

Applying some meta-thinking to the topic, though, the hints that Braham might have some connection to the Destroyers provides an avenue through which that might change. That's their opportunity to spring a twist that changes our interpretation of Primordus, if they were so inclined. And it does have to be noted that the saga is focused on Jormag, not Primordus - it's Jormag who's been corrupting the spirits and the charr, and Jormag with whom one of the major NPCs has a prophecy wherein they must slay Jormag or be slain by Jormag. Primordus' role, thus far, has pretty much just been to be a third party that provides a justification for cooperation with Jormag in an 'enemy of my enemy' fashion. It's possible that ArenaNet is planning a twist whereby it turns out that Primordus is the one that just wants to be left alone, but which has been driven to aggression by a justified (albeit possibly exacerbated by his own version of Torment) paranoia. Primordus has probably never had a champion that he didn't create before, and if that IS what's happening to Braham, it might end up being an eye-opener for both of them.

It's also just as possible that Primordus is exactly the monster he looks like, and we're going to end up rushing to Cantha looking for more dragons that can help control the release of magic from further Elder Dragon deaths before the world explodes. I'm not really invested in either, and unlike some people I'd happily switch theories as evidence comes in to support one over the other. Just making observations and speculations.

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@"draxynnic.3719" said:In Primordus' case... we don't know much, largely because Primordus is the Elder Dragon that interacts least with mortals. Even most Destroyers, despite names like "Destroyer Troll" and "Destroyer Harpy", are not actually corrupted regular creatures, but constructs given life by Primordus' power (and in some case, being able to reproduce by laying eggs, something that dragon minions of other dragons seem to generally be unable to do unless they were corrupted while pregnant). Which means we know zilch about Primordus' actual motivations, just his actions.

The only interest Primordus has shown in both games regarding mortals is exterminating them wherever he can find them.It's why theories about redemption or misunderstanding him kinda of fall flat.. if he just wanted to be left alone he would avoid conflict and bury himself deep underground where he would be safe and isolated.He has not done this though, he has consistently attacked and killed at every opportunity, driven multiple races out of their homes with his constant attacks and lived up to his reputation as a being of pure destruction.Primordus is in fact the one dragon that has been somewhat recorded in history by other races who survived his last awakening.. most notably the Dwarfs who to this day consider Destroyers and Primordus as their mortal enemies because of the legends that still existed about him and his Destroyers from his previous awakening.

Technically speaking, we only have Jormag's word that Primordus identifies as male. Given that line about being two sides of a coin that can't see each other directly, Jormag might not even know.

A misleading line tbh, It's not so much that they "can't" see each other directly it's that Jormag is avoiding such an encounter for it's own self preservation.Jormag and Primordus have physically clashed before and Jormag was injured during that encounter.The Shards of Jormag scattered about the Drizzlewood Coast are splinters of Jormag's body and blood that were broken off by Primordus when the two dragons fought each other during their last awakening.Knowing that information it's a safe bet that Jormag's motives against Primordus now are more to do with it being afraid to face Primordus again without a big advantage or it could be as simple as revenge.Either way Jormag is hell bent on killing it's brother.

Applying some meta-thinking to the topic, though, the hints that Braham might have some connection to the Destroyers provides an avenue through which that might change. That's their opportunity to spring a twist that changes our interpretation of Primordus, _if they were so inclined.

We don't know much about this yet but so far aside from being able to sense destroyers there's no apparent connection between Braham and Primordus.. but there is between Braham and Jormag.What we do know is that Braham is some kind of Norn of Prophecy and linked to several Spirits of the Wild, it's possible that since Jormag has corrupted a couple of them (3 that Braham has directly associated with) that Brahams ability to sense destroyers maybe something that Jormag is influencing somehow.Jormag's dedication to corrupting Owl (another spirit Braham is associated with) as part of some plan Jormag and Ryland are working on and the fact that Braham was specifically called out by an Icebrood who said "this doesn't concern you Eirsson" could also suggest that this is another of Jormag's plots to manipulate Braham, the one who's been prophesied to kill Jormag into being a weapon Jormag can use against it's brother.

At the moment it's too soon to know for sure yet, we just don't have enough to go on so it's all just speculation.

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@Teratus.2859 said:What we do know is that Braham is some kind of Norn of Prophecy and linked to several Spirits of the Wild, it's possible that since Jormag has corrupted a couple of them (3 that Braham has directly associated with) that Brahams ability to sense destroyers maybe something that Jormag is influencing somehow.Braham's ability to sense Destroyer should come from his connection to Wolf.Wolf has the ability to give mortals the ability to track down dragon minions.Unless Arenanet pulls something completely unnecessary, it's the very same ability that Wolf blessed the human heroes with in GW1, so that they could track down the Nornbear, which was a minion of Jormag.

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As I've explained in previous posts, Primordus's tendency to attack everything within reach could be a learned behaviour. Animals or people that have been hurt multiple times can get to a point where they paranoiacally lash out at anything that gets too close in a kind of pre-emptive retaliation to push away anything that might hurt it again. Primordus' behaviour makes sense when viewed through this lens, and in the context that he has minions. Just that instead of claws or words, his weapons are the destroyers.

We have one dragon who's good at manipulating mortals, and one dragon that appears to view all mortals as enemies (more so than other Elder Dragons). The first dragon wants to destroy the second, while the opinion of the second regarding the first is unknown. These two statements... might be connected.

Or Primordus might genuinely be the monster he's being made out to be. Like we've both said now... speculation.

Regarding Braham - my reaction last chapter was "don't be silly, Braham's a follower of Wolf who only recently gained the ability to transform, he's probably using the same Wolf-granted tracking ability that we used to track Svanir in Eye of the North". Now, though, we're getting strong hints that Braham has the destroyers "calling to" him.

While I don't think we can rule out the idea that Jormag instilled Braham with some destroyer-sensing ability while he was communing with the corrupted Spirits, I also don't think it's the most likely explanation. First, because the term "calling to" suggests that there's more going on that Braham simply sensing their presence - the choice of description implies communication, albeit on a very primitive level, and that Braham is somehow linked to them rather than simply feeling their proximity. There's also the thing about Braham being prophesied to be able to kill Jormag, something that has otherwise been suggested to require Primordus' power - the two dragons are each other's weaknesses, after all. If this is true and they genuinely are each other's weakness rather than a simple "fire melts ice, ice extinguishes fire" thing, than that implies that to be able to kill Jormag as the prophecy demands, Braham must have access to some of Primordus' power.

Where could he have picked that up? Well, we don't know where the power of that jotun scroll came from, but we do know that a lot of ancient magic involved tapping directly into the energies of the dragons. It's possible that the jotun harnessed some of Primordus' power to make that scroll. Now, most of that power went into the bow, of course, but if just some of it transferred to Braham instead as he was empowering the bow, that would explain why he seems to have some connection to the Destroyers now.

And raises the question of why Braham isn't suffering the effects of dragon corruption, but that might be why Primordus doesn't normally corrupt the living - his form of corruption might be much less potent at twisting living creatures to serve his will than the other dragons.

At this stage, I think this is the best explanation for what's going on with Braham. I wouldn't say that I'm 100% sure - probably more like a little over 60% sure - but it does seem more consistent with the evidence than the other explanations thus far.

And if it turns out that Braham becomes the first mortal to ever communicate with Primordus... that could well be a game-changer. Or it might not. It's probably still more likely, given the precedents of the other Elder Dragons, that Primordus' destructiveness is just his form of the insanity that the other Elder Dragons (except Aurene) seem to suffer from, along with mortals who absorb too much magic. But at the moment we're just speculating, and it is a line of speculation that remains consistent with observations.

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@Fueki.4753 said:

@"Teratus.2859" said:What we do know is that Braham is some kind of Norn of Prophecy and linked to several Spirits of the Wild, it's possible that since Jormag has corrupted a couple of them (3 that Braham has directly associated with) that Brahams ability to sense destroyers maybe something that Jormag is influencing somehow.Braham's ability to sense Destroyer should come from his connection to Wolf.Wolf has the ability to give mortals the ability to track down dragon minions.Unless Arenanet pulls something completely unnecessary, it's the very same ability that Wolf blessed the human heroes with in GW1, so that they could track down the Nornbear, which was a minion of Jormag.

That is the other popular theory too yeah, although nothing in game has been raised so far to prove it other than the link to Volfen Blessing in Gw1.There's also one thing that kind of disproves it as well.. Volfen Blessing was used in Gw1 to track Svanir.. a minion of Jormag as you said.If this power Braham has does come from wolf then he should be able to sense all Dragon Minions, not exclusively Destroyers which so far is all he can sense.It's also curious how only Braham has this power so far and no other Norn attuned to Wolf have been revealed who also possess it..I would think if it is a gift from Wolf other Norn would have it as well not only Braham.

Then again Anet could also write it in as "he's the norn of prophecy so he has special powers" and have that explain it which would be a pretty mediocre excuse to give him that ability tbhEither way I guess we'll find out in the next few episodes ^^

@"draxynnic.3719" said:As I've explained in previous posts, Primordus's tendency to attack everything within reach could be a learned behaviour. Animals or people that have been hurt multiple times can get to a point where they paranoiacally lash out at anything that gets too close in a kind of pre-emptive retaliation to push away anything that might hurt it again. Primordus' behaviour makes sense when viewed through this lens, and in the context that he has minions. Just that instead of claws or words, his weapons are the destroyers.

We have one dragon who's good at manipulating mortals, and one dragon that appears to view all mortals as enemies (more so than other Elder Dragons). The first dragon wants to destroy the second, while the opinion of the second regarding the first is unknown. These two statements... might be connected.

Or Primordus might genuinely be the monster he's being made out to be. Like we've both said now... speculation.

I don't think Primordus views mortals as enemies, if anything he probably thinks of them as irrelevant, weak and pathetic life forms compared to himself.. although that attitude could definitely have changed in recent years as he's most certainly aware that 3 beings as powerful as himself have been killed by them.It's quite likely he does consider us a threat now.. although I doubt he did before the events of Gw2.

I don't think it's learned behaviour though.. nothing seems to suggest that so far and the only times we know of where Primordus has been in a dangerous situation was previously in a physical conflict with Jormag in which he came out the victor and back in living world 3 where Balthazar was trying to kill him using Jormag's magic.That would put Jormag as the priority threat to Primordus both now and thousands of years in the past and who knows how long those two have been trying to kill one another really.. and who started that conflict, we can all assume Jormag will put the blame on Primordus.. but that is one opinion we can definitely not trust.

The best I can think of that would make your theory make sense to me is that Primordus targets mortals because either he associates them with Jormag's minions and cannot tell the different (which I strongly doubt as it would imply a lack of intelligence) or he does it preemptively as a means to deny Jormag potential minions in the future.. which does make sense tbh.

For the record i'm not saying you're wrong and just dismissing your theory, I just think it's very unlikely that's all.

Regarding Braham - my reaction last chapter was "don't be silly, Braham's a follower of Wolf who only recently gained the ability to transform, he's probably using the same Wolf-granted tracking ability that we used to track Svanir in Eye of the North". Now, though, we're getting strong hints that Braham has the destroyers "calling to" him.

If they were calling to him though I would think they wouldn't attack him.. but then again they have been described recently as "Rabid".Plus there's the fact that Primordus doesn't corrupt living beings.. and the fact he doesn't associate with mortals.There's a lot with this particular story element which doesn't make much sense atm.. and it's hard to buy into these theories that Primordus wants Braham as a champion or servant.Jormag may have changed recently taking on Ryland and it could be possible that Primordus may have changed in a similar way too but so far there's too just little info about to put much stock in those kinds of theories.I really can't wait for Anet to finally reveal this lol it's one of the more interesting elements in the story so far.

While I don't think we can rule out the idea that Jormag instilled Braham with some destroyer-sensing ability while he was communing with the corrupted Spirits, I also don't think it's the most likely explanation. First, because the term "calling to" suggests that there's more going on that Braham simply sensing their presence - the choice of description implies communication, albeit on a very primitive level, and that Braham is somehow linked to them rather than simply feeling their proximity. There's also the thing about Braham being prophesied to be able to kill Jormag, something that has otherwise been suggested to require Primordus' power - the two dragons are each other's weaknesses, after all. If this is true and they genuinely are each other's weakness rather than a simple "fire melts ice, ice extinguishes fire" thing, than that implies that to be able to kill Jormag as the prophecy demands, Braham must have access to some of Primordus' power.

It's a long shot theory admittedly, but it would be a fun twist.Manipulating is what Jormag does best and it would explain why Jormag is so interested in corrupting more spirits.. but yeah im not 100% sold on it either, was just something I put together based on available info and events that could explain a few things.

I don't know if Braham will require Primordus power though not in the way some expect him to "possess" it.. there are other means of hurting Jormag as we saw with the Jotun Scroll and I expect the same is true for Primordus as well.That said we also got that little comment from the Norn in the Thunderhead Keep Mission about not understanding prophecies until they have been fulfilled.

Braham's involvement in Jormag's death could be extremely literal as in Braham actively kills Jormag in combat or it could be something extremely different such as a key decision or action that Braham takes results in the death of Jormag.For an example of that think about how Logan fled the battle with Kralkatorrik to protect the Queen and Glint and Snaff died in the battle to which he was blamed for years as his decision to leave potentially caused those events to take place.

Braham could do something similar such as Killng Ryland which could distract Jormag long enough for Primordus to deliver a deathblow.. which is a scenario I've suggested in another thread as well as a potential way IBS could end and set us up with Primordus and Sea Dragon for End of Dragons.That would technically fulfil the prophecy as Braham's actions directly lead to the death of Jormag.This is ultimately the problem with Prophecies and why they are typically so vague and hard to understand.. it's also what makes them a lot of fun to play with in games too ^^

Where could he have picked that up? Well, we don't know where the power of that jotun scroll came from, but we do know that a lot of ancient magic involved tapping directly into the energies of the dragons. It's possible that the jotun harnessed some of Primordus' power to make that scroll. Now, most of that power went into the bow, of course, but if just some of it transferred to Braham instead as he was empowering the bow, that would explain why he seems to have some connection to the Destroyers now.

I have also put forward that exact theory in the past as well, this is another of those unanswered questions that Anet has yet to go back and explain but I still think there could be merit in this theory and it would explain a lot if it were true.

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We know that Primordus and Jormag have fought in a previous Dragonrise - that's the fluff behind there being pieces of Jormag's crystallised blood in Drizzlewood. So I think it's plausible that the "Jormag tries to get mortals to kill Primordus" thing has happened more than once, enough for Primordus to have decided that mortals are too dangerous to have around.

In that context, I don't think Primordus would be deliberately seeking Braham as a champion - however, if Braham has picked up Primordus-power from the scroll, it's plausible that a connections has formed accidentally, and if Primordus has never had a link with a sapient mortal before, doing so might be enough for him to reconsider his attitude towards mortals somewhat.

Or, y'know, not. It definitely falls within the region of wild speculation.

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