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Mirage Dodging


Undead Lives.7045

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Been using the mirage for a while now, and I've come to one simple conclusion.Not having any movement with the dodge mechanic is beyond garbage.Want to escape an aoe that comes in waves? Don't dodge. Try to stun.Want to get out of a large breadth aoe? Time your dodge well, and forget about using dodge to just get outside the area.I mean removing the movement aspect of dodge to give us...ambushes? a crappier distortion that lasts 1 second? Worth it? I don't think so.

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To be honest. If done well you even have more mobility with dodges than any other class. (other than Daredevil maybe.)You have 1 sec dodge now compared to the 0,75 sec it was before. You have 1 sec superspeed now compared to the 0,75 sec it was before.

You lose the dodge distance other classes get from dodging but the superspeed is there to make up for the loss of that dodge mobility.Don't just backpedal while dodging. When you have to dodge something, dodge, turn around and run. Make use of that superspeed mobility you get.

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@atlashugged.7642 said:Yeah, I think you're a bit off here. I haven't had any issues. Just move forward, or drop target and use the sword ambush, or blink out of it, etc, etc.

Except then we're taking dodging away as an actual defense. If I have to use other skills to gain the movement, what I'm sacrificing should be worth it.

  1. Moving forward works to about the same amount of space as a normal dodge (with superspeed). Unfortunately the movement is restricted to just forward. Superspeed doesn't work when you want to go another direction, like backwards.
  2. Compared to the daredevil's dodge mechanics (DDs also get to choose the dodge they want based on last tier trait) of an extra dodge, superspeed+extra 1/4 second evasion is worse.
  3. Lastly, ambush skills while flashy, seem rather mediocre.
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@Undead Lives.7045 said:

@atlashugged.7642 said:Yeah, I think you're a bit off here. I haven't had any issues. Just move forward, or drop target and use the sword ambush, or blink out of it, etc, etc.

Except then we're taking dodging away as an actual defense. If I have to use other skills to gain the movement, what I'm sacrificing should be worth it.
  1. Moving forward works to about the same amount of space as a normal dodge (with superspeed). Unfortunately the movement is restricted to just forward. Superspeed doesn't work when you want to go another direction, like backwards.
  2. Compared to the daredevil's dodge mechanics (DDs also get to choose the dodge they want based on last tier trait) of an extra dodge, superspeed+extra 1/4 second evasion is worse.
  3. Lastly, ambush skills while flashy, seem rather mediocre.

1) i think anet could make dodge a short blink with one trait and some bonus with it to replace IH and make IH baseline2) mesmer is supposed to use mirror to be comparable with DD dodge but we all know mirror is still trash and likely will be trash forever. we should have more traits to spec mirror and a f5 to active all mirror for a short cd .3) ambush skills are mostly just trash . for some weapons id rather wait to use AA instead coz most ambush skills have long cast time which is stupid for a deceptive spec .the number can be buffed but the problem will remain until anet admit the whole mirage design is flawed .which we know wont happen just look at power reaper and scrapper drone.

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@Undead Lives.7045 said:

@atlashugged.7642 said:Yeah, I think you're a bit off here. I haven't had any issues. Just move forward, or drop target and use the sword ambush, or blink out of it, etc, etc.

Except then we're taking dodging away as an actual defense. If I have to use other skills to gain the movement, what I'm sacrificing should be worth it.
  1. Moving forward works to about the same amount of space as a normal dodge (with superspeed). Unfortunately the movement is restricted to just forward. Superspeed doesn't work when you want to go another direction, like backwards.

Not true. I've gotten so used to right-click panning that I can get out of AoEs w/ Cloak really easily. It's a common misconception that you're restricted forwards (which, similarly, there is a misconception that you need stand in Mirage Oasis to get all the heals). Mirage is new, it'll take time to get used to it.

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@Undead Lives.7045 said:Except then we're taking dodging away as an actual defense. If I have to use other skills to gain the movement, what I'm sacrificing should be worth it.

  1. Moving forward works to about the same amount of space as a normal dodge (with superspeed). Unfortunately the movement is restricted to just forward. Superspeed doesn't work when you want to go another direction, like backwards.
  2. Compared to the daredevil's dodge mechanics (DDs also get to choose the dodge they want based on last tier trait) of an extra dodge, superspeed+extra 1/4 second evasion is worse.
  3. Lastly, ambush skills while flashy, seem rather mediocre.

I don't get your argument. You were complaining about lack of mobility while dodging. Sword Ambush has 600 range (greater than a normal dodge), and can be used whenever you dodge. If you want mobility it's there. You're not taking away dodging for actual defense. If you mirage cloak for defense, you can use sword ambush to get a lot of movement out of it.

The rest of your points.

  1. rotate your camera.
  2. Mirage also get to choose what dodge they want based on the last tier trait. Look at it. All of them are dodge traits. Now you should hopefully see the flaw in your argument here: You're comparing a traited daredevil dodge to an untraited mirage dodge. When you add the traits in, I think mirage dodge is actually better.

    2a. Infinite Horizon lets you use ambush skills in some nifty ways. In particular the sword ambush is hilarious with clones and infinite horizon.

    2b. Elusive Mind is amazing. Breaking stuns and removing a condition based on dodging is better than the daredevil counterpart (and anything else you can get at that level in daredevil).2c. Dune Cloak is comparable to Impaling lotus. It's a bit tougher to evaluate which is better, since they have different positives and negatives Impaling Lotus probably has the edge.

  3. Some are mediocre, and I hope that they get improved to the level of the good ones, like Mirage Thrust.
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@Abelisk.4527 said:

@atlashugged.7642 said:Yeah, I think you're a bit off here. I haven't had any issues. Just move forward, or drop target and use the sword ambush, or blink out of it, etc, etc.

Except then we're taking dodging away as an actual defense. If I have to use other skills to gain the movement, what I'm sacrificing should be worth it.
  1. Moving forward works to about the same amount of space as a normal dodge (with superspeed). Unfortunately the movement is restricted to just forward. Superspeed doesn't work when you want to go another direction, like backwards.

Not true. I've gotten so used to right-click panning that I can get out of AoEs w/ Cloak really easily. It's a common misconception that you're restricted forwards (which, similarly, there is a misconception that you need stand in Mirage Oasis to get all the heals). Mirage is new, it'll take time to get used to it.

You do realise you just wrote 'Its not true you can only move forwards, you can turn the camera around and move forwards' right.

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@Levetty.1279 said:

@Abelisk.4527 said:

@atlashugged.7642 said:Yeah, I think you're a bit off here. I haven't had any issues. Just move forward, or drop target and use the sword ambush, or blink out of it, etc, etc.

Except then we're taking dodging away as an actual defense. If I have to use other skills to gain the movement, what I'm sacrificing should be worth it.
  1. Moving forward works to about the same amount of space as a normal dodge (with superspeed). Unfortunately the movement is restricted to just forward. Superspeed doesn't work when you want to go another direction, like backwards.

Not true. I've gotten so used to right-click panning that I can get out of AoEs w/ Cloak really easily. It's a common misconception that you're restricted forwards (which, similarly, there is a misconception that you need stand in Mirage Oasis to get all the heals). Mirage is new, it'll take time to get used to it.

You do realise you just wrote 'Its not true you can only move forwards, you can turn the camera around and move forwards' right.

You can argue semantics all you want, what the person I quoted was referring to was being restricted to dodging in a forward-facing cone area. He didn't mention the camera in the first place. Also, if you run while panning your camera, you are not at all running forward--how else do you get out of an AoE?

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@Abelisk.4527 said:

@Levetty.1279 said:

@Abelisk.4527 said:

@atlashugged.7642 said:Yeah, I think you're a bit off here. I haven't had any issues. Just move forward, or drop target and use the sword ambush, or blink out of it, etc, etc.

Except then we're taking dodging away as an actual defense. If I have to use other skills to gain the movement, what I'm sacrificing should be worth it.
  1. Moving forward works to about the same amount of space as a normal dodge (with superspeed). Unfortunately the movement is restricted to just forward. Superspeed doesn't work when you want to go another direction, like backwards.

Not true. I've gotten so used to right-click panning that I can get out of AoEs w/ Cloak really easily. It's a common misconception that you're restricted forwards (which, similarly, there is a misconception that you need stand in Mirage Oasis to get all the heals). Mirage is new, it'll take time to get used to it.

You do realise you just wrote 'Its not true you can only move forwards, you can turn the camera around and move forwards' right.

You can argue semantics all you want, what the person I quoted was referring to was being restricted to dodging in a forward-facing cone area. He didn't mention the camera in the first place. Also, if you run while panning your camera, you are not at all running forward--how else do you get out of an AoE?

Playing a normal class with an actual elite spec.

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@Abelisk.4527 said:Ehh. Mirage cloak is a lot more stable than "real" dodging. A lot more control on where you go.

This is just one of those "getting used to" things.

question : how you have more control when you want to move everywhere except forward ?tho things like dodge while stomp can be op for sure . but that's also unhealthy to game . i prefer any healthy design with actual useful function than a broken niche .

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@Undead Lives.7045 said:

@atlashugged.7642 said:Yeah, I think you're a bit off here. I haven't had any issues. Just move forward, or drop target and use the sword ambush, or blink out of it, etc, etc.

Except then we're taking dodging away as an actual defense. If I have to use other skills to gain the movement, what I'm sacrificing should be worth it.
  1. Moving forward works to about the same amount of space as a normal dodge (with superspeed). Unfortunately the movement is restricted to just forward. Superspeed doesn't work when you want to go another direction, like backwards.
  2. Compared to the daredevil's dodge mechanics (DDs also get to choose the dodge they want based on last tier trait) of an extra dodge, superspeed+extra 1/4 second evasion is worse.
  3. Lastly, ambush skills while flashy, seem rather mediocre.

Yeah, last point I can really get behind. Running a full Power build, I'm really only using the Sword Ambush skill for moving around the map and closing the gap to a target.

Isn't moving forward with Superspeed a relative fair bit further than a dodge roll? I really felt like, today on HoT areas, those huge AoE's were all pretty easy to get out off, even though I don't even have Jaunt yet.

One thing that might help here is that my only movement keys bound are QWE, so generally moving at 'top' speed

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@atlashugged.7642 said:

@Undead Lives.7045 said:Except then we're taking dodging away as an actual defense. If I have to use other skills to gain the movement, what I'm sacrificing should be worth it.
  1. Moving forward works to about the same amount of space as a normal dodge (with superspeed). Unfortunately the movement is restricted to just forward. Superspeed doesn't work when you want to go another direction, like backwards.
  2. Compared to the daredevil's dodge mechanics (DDs also get to choose the dodge they want based on last tier trait) of an extra dodge, superspeed+extra 1/4 second evasion is worse.
  3. Lastly, ambush skills while flashy, seem rather mediocre.

I don't get your argument. You were complaining about lack of mobility while dodging. Sword Ambush has 600 range (greater than a normal dodge), and can be used whenever you dodge. If you want mobility it's there. You're not taking away dodging for actual defense. If you mirage cloak for defense, you can use sword ambush to get a lot of movement out of it.

The rest of your points.
  1. rotate your camera.
  2. Mirage also get to choose what dodge they want based on the last tier trait. Look at it. All of them are dodge traits. Now you should hopefully see the flaw in your argument here: You're comparing a traited daredevil dodge to an untraited mirage dodge. When you add the traits in, I think mirage dodge is actually better.

    2a. Infinite Horizon lets you use ambush skills in some nifty ways. In particular the sword ambush is hilarious with clones and infinite horizon.

    2b. Elusive Mind is amazing. Breaking stuns and removing a condition based on dodging is better than the daredevil counterpart (and anything else you can get at that level in daredevil).2c. Dune Cloak is comparable to Impaling lotus. It's a bit tougher to evaluate which is better, since they have different positives and negatives Impaling Lotus probably has the edge.
  3. Some are mediocre, and I hope that they get improved to the level of the good ones, like Mirage Thrust.

Sword Ambush is fine. But it requires you to run sword, which means you are limited in builds. I'm not gonna get into what weapons to run, my argument is purely that making the movement a two-skill function that only uses a specific weapon is limiting and not something that other classes experience.

  1. Rotating the camera takes time. With 1s of superspeed, any time lost is lost quickly.
  2. Technically you're correct since 2 out of three work with mirage cloak, and not just dodging.2a. It's fine.2b. I would argue that Unhindered Combat on DD is superior. Removes 3 (specific) conditions, goes farther, grants 10s of swiftness. I'm making this comparison because of the condi removal. Yes, it's 3 mobility conditions, and it doesn't have a stun break. But it's 3 instead of 1. And I'd rather dodge an incoming stun than get hit by it and then break it.
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@"Undead Lives.7045" said:

  1. Rotating the camera takes time. With 1s of superspeed, any time lost is lost quickly.
  2. Technically you're correct since 2 out of three work with mirage cloak, and not just dodging.2a. It's fine.2b. I would argue that Unhindered Combat on DD is superior. Removes 3 (specific) conditions, goes farther, grants 10s of swiftness. I'm making this comparison because of the condi removal. Yes, it's 3 mobility conditions, and it doesn't have a stun break. But it's 3 instead of 1. And I'd rather dodge an incoming stun than get hit by it and then break it.
  1. About Face is instant. Rotating is pretty fast. I don't know what to tell you other than be faster on your reaction.
  2. All three on mirage modify mirage cloak and how it behaves. All three on daredevil modify dodge and how it behaves. So I don't know what you mean by "technically you're correct." I am correct.2a. Yes.2b. You can dodge stuns even if you take elusive mind. In fact, you can probably dodge more of them than the thief while doing damage, since your dodge won't interrupt your other actions. But eventually someone is going to land one. And that is when Elusive Mind proves its worth over unhindered combat.
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They already removed the thumbs down button from the forums? rip. If it was still here, you'd have one from me... It adds a new element of skill to mesmer. Mesmer have always been the class that have (imo) taken the most skill to play, and this adds a new element, 1 second of invulnerability while maintaining your attacks/etc.

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@tnhalbertsma.7682 said:

@atlashugged.7642 said:Yeah, I think you're a bit off here. I haven't had any issues. Just move forward, or drop target and use the sword ambush, or blink out of it, etc, etc.

Except then we're taking dodging away as an actual defense. If I have to use other skills to gain the movement, what I'm sacrificing should be worth it.
  1. Moving forward works to about the same amount of space as a normal dodge (with superspeed). Unfortunately the movement is restricted to just forward. Superspeed doesn't work when you want to go another direction, like backwards.
  2. Compared to the daredevil's dodge mechanics (DDs also get to choose the dodge they want based on last tier trait) of an extra dodge, superspeed+extra 1/4 second evasion is worse.
  3. Lastly, ambush skills while flashy, seem rather mediocre.

Yeah, last point I can really get behind. Running a full Power build, I'm really only using the Sword Ambush skill for moving around the map and closing the gap to a target.

Isn't moving forward with Superspeed a relative fair bit further than a dodge roll? I really felt like, today on HoT areas, those huge AoE's were all pretty easy to get out off, even though I don't even have Jaunt yet.

One thing that might help here is that my only movement keys bound are QWE, so generally moving at 'top' speed

there are many aoe you do not want to move forward . especially some long lasting big aoe poison pool .or things like oil in demois .> @Xbon.9086 said:

They already removed the thumbs down button from the forums? rip. If it was still here, you'd have one from me... It adds a new element of skill to mesmer. Mesmer have always been the class that have (imo) taken the most skill to play, and this adds a new element, 1 second of invulnerability while maintaining your attacks/etc.

tedious way to play is not equal to more skill .but welp . and it's not invuln 5 years of gw2 , people don't know whats blur whats distortion and talk about skill . LMAO and you cant maintain your attack coz if you turn face most of your attack will stop . yeah it takes so much skill to know how a 5 years old game works ,coz someone just cant know for some reasons .

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@atlashugged.7642 said:

@"Undead Lives.7045" said:
  1. Rotating the camera takes time. With 1s of superspeed, any time lost is lost quickly.
  2. Technically you're correct since 2 out of three work with mirage cloak, and not just dodging.2a. It's fine.2b. I would argue that Unhindered Combat on DD is superior. Removes 3 (specific) conditions, goes farther, grants 10s of swiftness. I'm making this comparison because of the condi removal. Yes, it's 3 mobility conditions, and it doesn't have a stun break. But it's 3 instead of 1. And I'd rather dodge an incoming stun than get hit by it and then break it.
  1. About Face is instant. Rotating is pretty fast. I don't know what to tell you other than be faster on your reaction.
  2. All three on mirage modify mirage cloak and how it behaves. All three on daredevil modify dodge and how it behaves. So I don't know what you mean by "technically you're correct." I am correct.2a. Yes.2b. You can dodge stuns even if you take elusive mind. In fact, you can probably dodge more of them than the thief while doing damage, since your dodge won't interrupt your other actions. But eventually someone is going to land one. And that is when Elusive Mind proves its worth over unhindered combat.

About face isn't instant because it's an extra key to hit and no one's instant unless they're a bot. But maybe I want to move sideways? That's not instant. My point is dodging movement was wrapped in one key, one skill. Now it requires extra steps. Which on the one thing that all classes have as a general reaction, you don't want.

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@atlashugged.7642 said:

@"Undead Lives.7045" said:
  1. Rotating the camera takes time. With 1s of superspeed, any time lost is lost quickly.
  2. Technically you're correct since 2 out of three work with mirage cloak, and not just dodging.2a. It's fine.2b. I would argue that Unhindered Combat on DD is superior. Removes 3 (specific) conditions, goes farther, grants 10s of swiftness. I'm making this comparison because of the condi removal. Yes, it's 3 mobility conditions, and it doesn't have a stun break. But it's 3 instead of 1. And I'd rather dodge an incoming stun than get hit by it and then break it.
  1. About Face is instant. Rotating is pretty fast. I don't know what to tell you other than be faster on your reaction.
  2. All three on mirage modify mirage cloak and how it behaves. All three on daredevil modify dodge and how it behaves. So I don't know what you mean by "technically you're correct." I am correct.2a. Yes.2b. You can dodge stuns even if you take elusive mind. In fact, you can probably dodge more of them than the thief while doing damage, since your dodge won't interrupt your other actions. But eventually someone is going to land one. And that is when Elusive Mind proves its worth over unhindered combat.

you guys defending this dodge could just record a video showus how you make that dodge works to avoid aoe while doing dmg in raid , plain and simple .its not smooth gameplay no matter how you defend it , you just use more steps to force a simple function to work . that's design flaw . canceling AA chain was same for more dps . following your logic anet shouldn't have fixed that.also about face u will stop attacking therefore you lost advantage of mirage dodge . whats the point to make more effort but canceling each other ?btw for 2b i think he meant normal dodge roll has more room for mistake since it moves you away from cc , things like gravity well is easier to dodge without mirage .mirage dodge is especial weak against long last effect .in pvp if you turn around to move , it will lead to more problems .

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