90% of Stat Sets are Un-Used

[The Boz.2038]

@Hesione.9412 said:

@"sorudo.9054" said:all i can say is, welcome to guild wars 2.a place where stats are linear and roles are reduced to 1.

But they're not. There is a viable condi and a viable power version for all professions - first dps role. There is also often (always?) a viable heals/support iteration - second role. In some cases, there is even dps versus support versus heals (guardian), where support can be support/heals or support/dps - third role. Sometimes, depending on the situation (e.g. WvW, fractals) a player needs to be flexible about what build to use in which situation. This isn't always about swapping from condi dps to power dps, or vice versa.

What does "viable" mean? Can we define this first before we continue the discussion?Is "viable" equal to "can complete the campaign solo"? If so, a condition build with green Sentinel gear and Trooper runes is viable, regardless of player skill.Is "can play fractals 1-50 with a group of friends" viable? Well, any random assortment of rares and exotics will do here, as far as stats go, and actually knowing encounters becomes a factor.However, if we complicate things a bit, we soon arrive to the crux of the issue. "Can queue up to 100CM fractals with other randoms and complete them successfully" is a much higher bar, that leaves many, many builds in the dirt.

[Hesione.9412]

@The Boz.2038 said:

@Hesione.9412 said:

@"sorudo.9054" said:all i can say is, welcome to guild wars 2.a place where stats are linear and roles are reduced to 1.

But they're not. There is a viable condi and a viable power version for all professions - first dps role. There is also often (always?) a viable heals/support iteration - second role. In some cases, there is even dps versus support versus heals (guardian), where support can be support/heals or support/dps - third role. Sometimes, depending on the situation (e.g. WvW, fractals) a player needs to be flexible about what build to use in which situation. This isn't always about swapping from condi dps to power dps, or vice versa.

What does "viable" mean? Can we define this first before we continue the discussion?Is "viable" equal to "can complete the campaign solo"? If so, a condition build with green Sentinel gear and Trooper runes is viable, regardless of player skill.Is "can play fractals 1-50 with a group of friends" viable? Well, any random assortment of rares and exotics will do here, as far as stats go, and actually knowing encounters becomes a factor.However, if we complicate things a bit, we soon arrive to the crux of the issue. "Can queue up to 100CM fractals with other randoms and complete them successfully" is a much higher bar, that leaves many, many builds in the dirt.

I do not know what your point is, about my comment on viability. The comment to which I was replying was that there was only 1 role in GW2. My examples were that there are multiple roles. This isn't about builds, this is about whether there is only one role in the game. Only DPS. Only heals. Only tank. The answer is no, there is not only one role in this game. And within a role, such as DPS, there are multiple versions. But, ignoring power/condi then yes, DPS is one role.

I had included WvW in my example. Raids, although I didn't mention those, are a PvE example. There is not one role for everyone in those.

[The Boz.2038]

You said there was a viable power and condi build for each class. To claim that, we first need to agree on what viable means.

[Blockhead Magee.3092]

My group, you conform to my rules or happily join someone else.
Your group, I conform to your rules or happily join someone else.

Isn't it nice that both of us get to play how we want with people who wish (or are willing) to play the same way.

Note: the 'You' above is not directed at any individual in this thread .

[Svarty.8019]

@The Boz.2038 said:You said there was a viable power and condi build for each class. To claim that, we first need to agree on what viable means.

Let's clear it up then. Viable means literally: Vie = Live, Able = Can.Capable of Life. So yes, all builds are capable of life, but let's say it's Capable of Comfortable Life.Your character should at minimum, be able to get loot - that's pretty much all you need - other players can rez you so survivability doesn't really matter.It's a very low bar.

And we're done. But it's silly.

What we want is something more sensible, so let's say, as we want our character to perform about as well as other players' characters do.So let's say Viable means to be able to perform in a similar way to our peers in terms of damage done/taken before dying.

Do you agree to these terms?

[Cuks.8241]

@Firebeard.1746 said:...

So we went completely offtopic here. Would just conclude that I agree with most of what you said. My initial point was just that what we call in gw2 support is nothing new to most other games, it's just that this nomenclature of what constitutes a support role is a bit different here than what I am used to from other mmorpgs. Usually, they are just called dps. Most likely because if there is holy trinity you want to put them somewhere in there. It's not a tank or healer? Well, it's DPS.

[AliamRationem.5172]

@Cuks.8241 said:

@"Firebeard.1746" said:...

So we went completely offtopic here. Would just conclude that I agree with most of what you said. My initial point was just that what we call in gw2 support is nothing new to most other games, it's just that this nomenclature of what constitutes a support role is a bit different here than what I am used to from other mmorpgs. Usually, they are just called dps. Most likely because if there is holy trinity you want to put them somewhere in there. It's not a tank or healer? Well, it's DPS.

That's it exactly. WoW doesn't have a "support" role not because support doesn't exist, but because all classes have some form of support tied to their primary trinity role. I do agree with the poster who noted that "support" in WoW is more of an afterthought (i.e. some buff you passively supply as opposed to a dedicated build and rotation for the purpose of providing support), but in that comparison the same can be said for GW2's take on healing and especially "tanking" which bear only a superficial resemblance to the well-defined and supported roles of a trinity game like WoW.

[Astralporing.1957]

@"The Boz.2038" said:You said there was a viable power and condi build for each class. To claim that, we first need to agree on what viable means.Not really. The statement remains mostly true even if we limit ourselves to high-end play and meta.

Let's look at snowcrows site and meta builds that are there:Ele: 3 tempest builds - Power dps, condi dps and heal, and 2 Weaver builds - Power dps and condi dpsMesmer: 4 Chrono builds - power boon, condi boon, power dps, condi dps, and one condi dps Mirage buildNecro: power dps Reaper, condi dps Scourge and heal ScourgeEngi: heal Scrapper, condi dps Holo and power dps HoloRanger: - heal Druid, condi Druid, power dps Soulbeast, condi Soulbeast (and one hand-kite Sb build, we can ignore here due to being really niche)Thief: Boon core Thief, power dps Daredevil, boon daredevil, and power dps DeadeyeGuard: power dps Core Guard, power dps DH, condi dps Fb, condi quickness Fb, heal FbRev: boon Herald, condi dps Renegade, Alaren, heal Renegade (and handkite Herald, again, ignorable here due to being niche role)War: Power banner Berserker, condi banner berserker, power dps berserker, condi dps berserker, power dps spellbreaker.

Notice, that 7 out of 9 classes here have both power dps and condi dps build, as well as at least one support build. The remaining two are Revenant (lacking power build, but having both boon and heal support builds) and Thief (lacking condi build and a more general use support build - the boon thief is very boss-specific) Notice also, that both power herald and condi daredevil builds do exist, they're just not mentioned on snowcows (but do appear in raid category on metabattle).

So, we can safely say that there is at least one power dps and one condi dps build for each class that is well above being just "viable".

[Nephalem.8921]

@"Veprovina.4876" said:

There's just the meta builds for raids. Meaning, build diversity is practically non existent because you need that DPS to clear the boss before the timer. That's why all the DPS. I'm not arguing that at all. And of course, if someone is super perfect and whatever, they can do raids in suboptimal gear but then again, not really - you still need the DPS, and that's just like someone playing Dark Souls with a guitar hero peripheral, it's just for show, not really something to make an argument around.

I'm just saying that, if there was no timer on raids, there would be more build diversity in raids. There would be no need for X amount of DPS to clear, and people would probably accept pugs more readily even if they don't have meta builds. There would still be an element of learning the encounter, etc., but would be way more forgiving due to some builds being more tanky, so if someone does mess up, people wouldn't be as annoyed as they are now.

But that's not the case right now, and right now, you can't raid if you don't have a snowcrow build. That's just a fact, i can't just go in raids with my "Crit Kitten" build and expect people to let me raid with them. Hence why i said, there's only small amounts of builds that are allowed in at all.

You cant gearcheck. Only results can be seen. You can raid in valk, marauder etc just fine as long as the results are ok. Most players achieve only 70% of the potential anyways so nobody would even notice such sets unless they have toughness.Not sure if you ever raided but timers are never the problem. The timers are so generous that you can 4man most of the bosses within the time limit. There are no timers in fractals and people are still playing high dps builds. Most groups would rather 9man than playing with a mm tank necro that will most likely screw up a mechanic. Most good mechanics cant be tanked anyways because everyone would ignore them if you could. Every mechanic being a oneshot would be too punishing so a timer kinda acts like a soft mechanic check. Only x amounts of mechanics can be failed before you reach enrage. You will never reach the enrage if you do the mechanics even when you wear soldier and other tank gear. Enrage is important in boss design because its a simple check if the group actually does fight the boss or if its spending most of the time rezzing or running around.

[Avatar.3568]

@maddoctor.2738 said:I think a lot of the sets are simply in the game for completeness, to have as many possible combinations as possible. There are some combinations that make no sense, on all tiers of play.

1-stat gear with Toughness provides no meaningful boost to effective health at low levels.2-stat gear with Power and Ferocity is worthless as critical damage without critical chance is useless3-stat gear like Nomad which are only for the memes

Just some quick examples of gear combinations that are absolutely terrible for new or old players, there are many more bad choices out there.To be honest though, multiple stat combinations (at least in the core game) exist to make good gear more rare. If all the gear drops you ever got where the 2-3 good core sets, then it would make gear even easier/faster (for new players) to acquire than it already is. Or alternatively they'd need to lower the chances of anything good dropping.

Power and ferocity are pretty strong on Ranger for example, where you can trait 100% krits, combined with toughness you get a tanky boy

[Dante.1508]

Its been like this for years 80% of the sets are useless and gather dust.. I can't see it ever changing the meta people would be upset. A whole group of sets you can't even get without jumping through massive grind hoops.. and still don't have rings and jewellry for karma or from the npcs in LA etc.

[Aridon.8362]

Stop caring about the meta then. I go minstrels healbrand in strike missions, nobody notices or cares as long as I keep pushing out perma quickness. Why do I do this? Because I don't care about metas. I'm thinking of bringing a full grieving war into a raid one day because I am a savage.

[mindcircus.1506]

@"Dante.1508" said:Its been like this for years 80% of the sets are useless and gather dust.. I can't see it ever changing the meta people would be upset.The "meta people" don't care if the best option is the best of ten or the best of fifty.The "meta people" are the ones adding pieces of Sinister, Assassins or Greiving gear into their sets when non-meta players are happy running complete Berskerer's or Viper's."Meta people" are never going to argue for less options.A whole group of sets you can't even get without jumping through massive grind hoops..There is no stat set that is unavailable from the least expensive stat selectable armor/weapon box. 1 gold for a second-best-in slot helmet off the tp is not a "massive grind hoop". Bladed armor boxes are not a "massive grind hoop". Crafting Lunatic Armor is not a "massive grind hoop". All the runic armor rewards in Eye of the North are stat selectable. Stat selectable armor boxes are flat out given to players in WvW. Even straight crafting sets like Trailblazers or Celestial have never been cheaper due to recent changes.