Can we get a D/D rework?

[Patkus.9178]

Do you think it's possible to get a rework for D/D?Imo it's one of the most underwhelming in PvE and PvP/WvW. Maybe add more cleave or range to daggers so we can get a build that's viable in fractals?Back when I had just started the game I fell in love with thief and D/D in particular. But over time I realised just how trash it is compared to staff DD (I'm talking about PvE). Compared to other classes thief just doesn't have any build variability (again, mostly PvE)

[krixis.9538]

deadeye dagger dagger is not underwhelming in pve :D.

also this is why u have multiple gear sets / builds so you can change as needed for the content you are doing. the 2 you get for free is more then enough as a thief.

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

Personally I'd like to see a bit more focus with it when it comes to condition or power damage. Anet keeps changing around traits and skills, and I'm not sure if dagger is meant to be a hybrid weapon, or if it isn't at all.

I'm not sure how popular this view is, though.

[Antycypator.9874]

D/D is fine, but I would take some damage from Cloak and Dagger, and transfer it to AA chain.

[Patkus.9178]

@Antycypator.9874 said:D/D is fine, but I would take some damage from Cloak and Dagger, and transfer it to AA chain.

That's a solid suggestion but kinda still doesn't solve the problem of daggers having little to no cleave, which is needed in fractals and places where adds are a thing

[Cynz.9437]

Probably will be problematic since it will directly affect d/p and p/d - both are fairly hated in pvp/wvw. The changes will either make those sets stupidly broken or ruin about the only build somehow viable in pvp (i am not talking about silver plays here). They really need to decide weither d/d should be power or condi spec.

[Yasai.3549]

@Antycypator.9874 said:D/D is fine, but I would take some damage from Cloak and Dagger, and transfer it to AA chain.

That would indirectly buff D/P and D/D will still be underused :/If anything, there needs to be significant buffs or reworks to D/D 3, to make offhand Dagger actually worth consideration.

It's only after then shifting power away from CnD should be considered.

[DeceiverX.8361]

@Antycypator.9874 said:D/D is fine, but I would take some damage from Cloak and Dagger, and transfer it to AA chain.

So... remove the last vestiges of any reason to ever take D/D over D/P, ever?

D/D sucks because ANet removed all the damage amp from the core thief in general and put it in the DrD and DE trait lines. Took the fangs mostly from core and generally speaking, hit D/x's sustained damage hard with the overall AA nerfs and removal of damage from CS in favor of EW for PvE.

It's funny seeing the difference of opinion because PvE players say it's fine when it's atrociously bad in the PvP modes and is absolutely and totally eclipsed by D/P in every way now, with those two traitlines/builds having anti-synergy with D/D itself. It's viable in PvE which is good enough. PvP... it's dumpster-tier bad. One of the weakest builds/kits in the entire game.

Here's your D/D rework/fix, as suggested on repeat, for years: It needs one skill change pretty much to at least be PvP-usable.

@DeceiverX.8361 said:Death Blossom needs a rework. Fixed-distance dash evade 600 units with half duration currently, bleeds single-target in larger stacks at the end of the movement so that it won't reveal if used as defense while in stealth (like it currently does which actively works against power D/D). Can't be spammed this way for damage since you'll always be moving away and then dealing the damage, and encourages better spacing and non-spam by condi builds, while providing better mobility and fixes a lot of problems with escapees and disengage potential with power builds, and gets synergy with CnD for the condi variant.

Drop the cost to 4 due to slightly higher dependence on CnD for optimized damage and lack of spammable PbAoE damage, since it no longer becomes a viable damage source like FS nor a true disengage like IS/IR on S/D, and this can keep condi playing in the same style as power by having it use CnD to reposition/gain distance, and strike again for the fixed-distance strike.

With this, condi D/D now requires more skill and active initiative management, and now you've got a consistent performer across power/condi and D/D actually has some synergy and value across its skills for both builds. Power gets buffed in mobility and sustain which it desperately needs.

[Patkus.9178]

@DeceiverX.8361 said:

@Antycypator.9874 said:D/D is fine, but I would take some damage from Cloak and Dagger, and transfer it to AA chain.

So... remove the last vestiges of any reason to ever take D/D over D/P, ever?

D/D sucks because ANet removed all the damage amp from the core thief in general and put it in the DrD and DE trait lines. Took the fangs mostly from core and generally speaking, hit D/x's sustained damage hard with the overall AA nerfs and removal of damage from CS in favor of EW for PvE.

It's funny seeing the difference of opinion because PvE players say it's fine when it's atrociously bad in the PvP modes and is absolutely and totally eclipsed by D/P in every way now, with those two traitlines/builds having anti-synergy with D/D itself. It's viable in PvE which is good enough. PvP... it's dumpster-tier bad. One of the weakest builds/kits in the entire game.

Here's your D/D rework/fix, as suggested on repeat, for years: It needs one skill change pretty much to at least be PvP-usable.

@DeceiverX.8361 said:Death Blossom needs a rework. Fixed-distance dash evade 600 units with half duration currently, bleeds single-target in larger stacks at the end of the movement so that it won't reveal if used as defense while in stealth (like it currently does which actively works against power D/D). Can't be spammed this way for damage since you'll always be moving away and then dealing the damage, and encourages better spacing and non-spam by condi builds, while providing better mobility and fixes a lot of problems with escapees and disengage potential with power builds, and gets synergy with CnD for the condi variant.

Drop the cost to 4 due to slightly higher dependence on CnD for optimized damage and lack of spammable PbAoE damage, since it no longer becomes a viable damage source like FS nor a true disengage like IS/IR on S/D, and this can keep condi playing in the same style as power by having it use CnD to reposition/gain distance, and strike again for the fixed-distance strike.

With this, condi D/D now requires more skill and active initiative management, and now you've got a consistent performer across power/condi and D/D actually has some synergy and value across its skills for both builds. Power gets buffed in mobility and sustain which it desperately needs.

See you did your homework. Interesting idea although I am not a big fan of the Death Blossom rework as I don't think it'd be useable in PvE (and I am a fan of power builds, so bleed is meh). Maybe some kind of spin move would work (spin in place for idk about 0.5s, do damage and get a small evade)? Would work in PvE as cleave as well as work in PvP because I'm guessing you could use it after porting to your enemy?

PoE had an interesting skill called Blade Flury or something like that. Channel and get dmg reduction (maybe block) and if you block/get hit you do more damage.

[The Boz.2038]

@krixis.9538 said:deadeye dagger dagger is not underwhelming in pve :D.Could you toss a build my way? I wanna see how that works.

[DeceiverX.8361]

@Patkus.9178 said:

@DeceiverX.8361 said:

@Antycypator.9874 said:D/D is fine, but I would take some damage from Cloak and Dagger, and transfer it to AA chain.

So... remove the last vestiges of any reason to ever take D/D over D/P, ever?

D/D sucks because ANet removed all the damage amp from the core thief in general and put it in the DrD and DE trait lines. Took the fangs mostly from core and generally speaking, hit D/x's sustained damage hard with the overall AA nerfs and removal of damage from CS in favor of EW for PvE.

It's funny seeing the difference of opinion because PvE players say it's fine when it's atrociously bad in the PvP modes and is absolutely and totally eclipsed by D/P in every way now, with those two traitlines/builds having anti-synergy with D/D itself. It's viable in PvE which is good enough. PvP... it's dumpster-tier bad. One of the weakest builds/kits in the entire game.

Here's your D/D rework/fix, as suggested on repeat, for years: It needs one skill change pretty much to at least be PvP-usable.

@DeceiverX.8361 said:Death Blossom needs a rework. Fixed-distance dash evade 600 units with half duration currently, bleeds single-target in larger stacks at the end of the movement so that it won't reveal if used as defense while in stealth (like it currently does which actively works against power D/D). Can't be spammed this way for damage since you'll always be moving away and then dealing the damage, and encourages better spacing and non-spam by condi builds, while providing better mobility and fixes a lot of problems with escapees and disengage potential with power builds, and gets synergy with CnD for the condi variant.

Drop the cost to 4 due to slightly higher dependence on CnD for optimized damage and lack of spammable PbAoE damage, since it no longer becomes a viable damage source like FS nor a true disengage like IS/IR on S/D, and this can keep condi playing in the same style as power by having it use CnD to reposition/gain distance, and strike again for the fixed-distance strike.

With this, condi D/D now requires more skill and active initiative management, and now you've got a consistent performer across power/condi and D/D actually has some synergy and value across its skills for both builds. Power gets buffed in mobility and sustain which it desperately needs.

See you did your homework. Interesting idea although I am not a big fan of the Death Blossom rework as I don't think it'd be useable in PvE (and I am a fan of power builds, so bleed is meh). Maybe some kind of spin move would work (spin in place for idk about 0.5s, do damage and get a small evade)? Would work in PvE as cleave as well as work in PvP because I'm guessing you could use it after porting to your enemy?

PoE had an interesting skill called Blade Flury or something like that. Channel and get dmg reduction (maybe block) and if you block/get hit you do more damage.

PvE's weaknesses are more or less that they removed damage modifiers from the thief as a whole and cut the AA by 30% a few years ago.

All they have to do is bring back some of the CS traitline's damage and the kit goes back to being plenty strong in PvE and makes CS as a whole more viable in the PvP modes as it's usually on the weaker end due to a total lack of usable utility. Currently, my understanding is D/D is overall decent in PvE as a whole and if it needs anything, it's not that much, but most players suffer because executing to get those numbers is rather difficult.

One of the fundamental things to consider is that D/D is weak in the PvP modes solely because of its design, which the only fix they can make without reworking pretty much every single weapon skill on thief, is to rework DB to have synergy with the rest of the kit and class itself. For PvE, it's mostly a DPS race where there's either no diversity because the meta simply can't evolve thanks to static encounter design, or the case where the people playing ignore the meta and the encounters are designed to allow small losses/variance, anyways. In the former case, people only care about numbers, and in the latter, they don't care at all. In the PvP modes, both need to be taken into serious consideration.