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Raid replayability - why not?


Akir.9312

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hello everyone,i dont think needs needs a lenghtly explanation.I clear raids more than one time per week as it is a content i am striving to improve at.The rewards are meaningless after the first weekly clear. to my knowledge it's the end content with less replayability. Is there a reason why? wouldnt it be a good change to introduce some way to make the content replayable?some drops you could still get when repeating (portals, chairs etc...)?some gold per encounter?a way to reset weekly clears so you could do them all twice?Best regards,Akir

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@Akir.9312 said:hello everyone,i dont think needs needs a lenghtly explanation.I clear raids more than one time per week as it is a content i am striving to improve at.The rewards are meaningless after the first weekly clear. to my knowledge it's the end content with less replayability. Is there a reason why? wouldnt it be a good change to introduce some way to make the content replayable?some drops you could still get when repeating (portals, chairs etc...)?some gold per encounter?a way to reset weekly clears so you could do them all twice?Best regards,Akir

Raid rewards are already pretty bad, a bit more than 100 gold from FC once/week if you sell your loot. However if we could repeat them as much as we want, that would change into 100 gold/4 hour for casual players like myself. Imo that would be bit too much.

However what you think about daily reset? Everything else would be daily other than LIs, LIs would still have their weekly cap.That would be ~700 gold/week IF player would do full clear every day. Imo that sounds kinda balanced when compared to other gold farming methods. It would also perhaps make raids less dead content.

Edit: just correct me if i said stupid about the gold from FC, i really dont remember anymore how much it is ?

If above sounds awful, perhaps give as a random daily raid wing to clear. I would be happy with that even.

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@Akir.9312 said:hello everyone,i dont think needs needs a lenghtly explanation.I clear raids more than one time per week as it is a content i am striving to improve at.The rewards are meaningless after the first weekly clear. to my knowledge it's the end content with less replayability. Is there a reason why? wouldnt it be a good change to introduce some way to make the content replayable?some drops you could still get when repeating (portals, chairs etc...)?some gold per encounter?a way to reset weekly clears so you could do them all twice?Best regards,Akir

I think that would be an awsome idea, as my self as a casual palyer, i priety much clear all my raids monday and stay with nothing much more to do, as raids are the most important content for me atm, i can accualy have fun doing raids, but there's this catch that is not worth doing it more then once a week...

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@"Cynz.9437" said:I don't think it is bad idea however, as posted before, with daily reset and only applies to some drops/ (reduced?) gold so we don't have LI/KPs inflation - that would make it impossible for newer players to ever get into raids.

Li problem is not solvable. Anet and community have opposite views on this subject so you will never find a solution to the problem. if you adress the LI/KP aquire rate you will get the "KPs arent the objectrive, every1 should be welcome" response. if you try to erase KP requirements from the community you end up with "how can you distinguish between skilled and non skilled player and avoid time waste".Given that, i only aim to make raids repeatable for all the players that clear them more than once per week like me

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KP, LI/DL and should be once per week, but other rewards (Gold, Shards/Crystals, exotic items and chance for Asc item) — daily. It's still low income compared to specific OW farms or FoTM, but I would probably do raids more, because I actually enjoy raids.

@sokeenoppa.5384 said:That would be ~700 gold/week IF player would do full clear every day. Imo that sounds kinda balanced when compared to other gold farming methods. It would also perhaps make raids less dead content.

Edit: just correct me if i said stupid about the gold from FC, i really dont remember anymore how much it is ?

It's 25 encounters (rewarded):W1: VG, Pre-Gorse, Gorseval, SabethaW2: Sloth, Trio, MatthiasW3: Escort, KC, Twisted Castle, XeraW4: Cairn, MO, Samarog, DeimosW5: SH, River, Statues, DhummW6: CA, Largos, QadimW7: Sabir, Adina, Qadim 2.0Total: 25, so 50g + additional bonus [doubled rewards from 2 random wings] = 62-66g.

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@"sokeenoppa.5384" said:Raid rewards are already pretty bad, a bit more than 100 gold from FC once/week if you sell your loot. However if we could repeat them as much as we want, that would change into 100 gold/4 hour for casual players like myself. Imo that would be bit too much.100g/4 hours is in line with the return from time spent in Drizzlewood and Dragonfall.Why is this number "too much" for players that are completing content that is objectively harder open world zerging?

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@mindcircus.1506 said:

@"sokeenoppa.5384" said:Raid rewards are already pretty bad, a bit more than 100 gold from FC once/week if you sell your loot. However if we could repeat them as much as we want, that would change into 100 gold/4 hour for casual players like myself. Imo that would be bit too much.100g/4 hours is in line with the return from time spent in Drizzlewood and Dragonfall.Why is this number "too much" for players that are completing content that is objectively harder open world zerging?

I agree with that. just trying to understand why are raids such a low income content.

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@Antycypator.9874 said:KP, LI/DL and should be once per week, but other rewards (Gold, Shards/Crystals, exotic items and chance for Asc item) — daily. It's still low income compared to specific OW farms or FoTM, but I would probably do raids more, because I actually enjoy raids.

@sokeenoppa.5384 said:That would be ~700 gold/week IF player would do full clear every day. Imo that sounds kinda balanced when compared to other gold farming methods. It would also perhaps make raids less dead content.

Edit: just correct me if i said stupid about the gold from FC, i really dont remember anymore how much it is ?

It's 25 encounters (rewarded):W1: VG, Pre-Gorse, Gorseval, SabethaW2: Sloth, Trio, MatthiasW3: Escort, KC, Twisted Castle, XeraW4: Cairn, MO, Samarog, DeimosW5: SH, River, Statues, DhummW6: CA, Largos, QadimW7: Sabir, Adina, Qadim 2.0Total: 25, so 50g + additional bonus [doubled rewards from 2 random wings] = 62-66g.

I counted the exotics and other loot in that aswell. They add up fast. It is after all one Guaranteed exotic and some yellow uni gear if im not mistaken. But still 100 was a bit of an overkill. 80-90 depending about rng sounds more correct.

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@Akir.9312 said:

@"sokeenoppa.5384" said:Raid rewards are already pretty bad, a bit more than 100 gold from FC once/week if you sell your loot. However if we could repeat them as much as we want, that would change into 100 gold/4 hour for casual players like myself. Imo that would be bit too much.100g/4 hours is in line with the return from time spent in Drizzlewood and Dragonfall.Why is this number "too much" for players that are completing content that is objectively harder open world zerging?

I agree with that. just trying to understand why are raids such a low income content.We
just
agreed that they offer competitive rewards with the best OW farms in the game.And you want to call them "low income"...This is why the developers cannot take this forum's feedback seriously
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@mindcircus.1506 said:

@"sokeenoppa.5384" said:Raid rewards are already pretty bad, a bit more than 100 gold from FC once/week if you sell your loot. However if we could repeat them as much as we want, that would change into 100 gold/4 hour for casual players like myself. Imo that would be bit too much.100g/4 hours is in line with the return from time spent in Drizzlewood and Dragonfall.Why is this number "too much" for players that are completing content that is objectively harder open world zerging?

If its up to me raids would be hands down the most rewarding content. I tried keep the it a bit lower just because ?‍♂️.

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@mindcircus.1506 said:

@"sokeenoppa.5384" said:Raid rewards are already pretty bad, a bit more than 100 gold from FC once/week if you sell your loot. However if we could repeat them as much as we want, that would change into 100 gold/4 hour for casual players like myself. Imo that would be bit too much.100g/4 hours is in line with the return from time spent in Drizzlewood and Dragonfall.Why is this number "too much" for players that are completing content that is objectively harder open world zerging?

I agree with that. just trying to understand why are raids such a low income content.We
just
agreed that they offer competitive rewards with the best OW farms in the game.And you want to call them "low income"...This is why the developers cannot take this forum's feedback seriously

so let me get this straight, you are able to get as muich money from raids as you can from OW farm on a weekly bases? is this your thesis?

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@Akir.9312 said:

@"sokeenoppa.5384" said:Raid rewards are already pretty bad, a bit more than 100 gold from FC once/week if you sell your loot. However if we could repeat them as much as we want, that would change into 100 gold/4 hour for casual players like myself. Imo that would be bit too much.100g/4 hours is in line with the return from time spent in Drizzlewood and Dragonfall.Why is this number "too much" for players that are completing content that is objectively harder open world zerging?

I agree with that. just trying to understand why are raids such a low income content.We
just
agreed that they offer competitive rewards with the best OW farms in the game.And you want to call them "low income"...This is why the developers cannot take this forum's feedback seriously

so let me get this straight, you are able to get as muich money from raids as you can from OW farm on a weekly bases? is this your thesis?

Raids gives you bit less than 100 gold/week while open world in theory can give atleast 3360 if you would spend every hour of week farming ?

Infact we should say that raids gives you 100gold/168 hour ?

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@sokeenoppa.5384 said:

@Antycypator.9874 said:KP, LI/DL and should be once per week, but other rewards (Gold, Shards/Crystals, exotic items and chance for Asc item) — daily. It's still low income compared to specific OW farms or FoTM, but I would probably do raids more, because I actually enjoy raids.

@sokeenoppa.5384 said:That would be ~700 gold/week IF player would do full clear every day. Imo that sounds kinda balanced when compared to other gold farming methods. It would also perhaps make raids less dead content.

Edit: just correct me if i said stupid about the gold from FC, i really dont remember anymore how much it is ?

It's 25 encounters (rewarded):W1: VG, Pre-Gorse, Gorseval, SabethaW2: Sloth, Trio, MatthiasW3: Escort, KC, Twisted Castle, XeraW4: Cairn, MO, Samarog, DeimosW5: SH, River, Statues, DhummW6: CA, Largos, QadimW7: Sabir, Adina, Qadim 2.0Total: 25, so 50g + additional bonus [doubled rewards from 2 random wings] = 62-66g.

I counted the exotics and other loot in that aswell. They add up fast. It is after all one Guaranteed exotic and some yellow uni gear if im not mistaken. But still 100 was a bit of an overkill. 80-90 depending about rng sounds more correct.

Actually 100g is about right on average.

The pure gold reward is around 60-66g. The reward in guaranteed exotic items is between 7.5 - 25 gold (depending on the exotic items. I calculated 0.30 to 1g per reward. Average should be a bit higher given often at least 1-2 valuable sigils are in there). The Magnetite Shards and Gaeting Crystals are 15g and 18g respectively (at each 150 gained). The CM rewards are 10 gold on top. That is without any ascended loot factored in or potential infusion or other sell-able drops.

I personally don't mind either way. I know enough players who clear raids multiple times per week. Some even multiple full clears.

Only issue I would warn against is players with a completion OCD burning out or creating more pressure to raid after the initial raid clear or creating a situation where experienced raiders are given less motivation in helping out. As it stands, a major reason why some players raid beyond their full clear in other raid squads to help is is exactly because raids don't offer continuous daily rewards.

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@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Antycypator.9874 said:KP, LI/DL and should be once per week, but other rewards (Gold, Shards/Crystals, exotic items and chance for Asc item) — daily. It's still low income compared to specific OW farms or FoTM, but I would probably do raids more, because I actually enjoy raids.

@sokeenoppa.5384 said:That would be ~700 gold/week IF player would do full clear every day. Imo that sounds kinda balanced when compared to other gold farming methods. It would also perhaps make raids less dead content.

Edit: just correct me if i said stupid about the gold from FC, i really dont remember anymore how much it is ?

It's 25 encounters (rewarded):W1: VG, Pre-Gorse, Gorseval, SabethaW2: Sloth, Trio, MatthiasW3: Escort, KC, Twisted Castle, XeraW4: Cairn, MO, Samarog, DeimosW5: SH, River, Statues, DhummW6: CA, Largos, QadimW7: Sabir, Adina, Qadim 2.0Total: 25, so 50g + additional bonus [doubled rewards from 2 random wings] = 62-66g.

I counted the exotics and other loot in that aswell. They add up fast. It is after all one Guaranteed exotic and some yellow uni gear if im not mistaken. But still 100 was a bit of an overkill. 80-90 depending about rng sounds more correct.

Actually 100g is about right on average.

The pure gold reward is around 60-66g. The reward in guaranteed exotic items is between 7.5 - 25 gold (depending on the exotic items. I calculated 0.30 to 1g per reward. Average should be a bit higher given often at least 1-2 valuable sigils are in there). The Magnetite Shards and Gaeting Crystals are 15g and 18g respectively (at each 150 gained). The CM rewards are 10 gold on top. That is without any ascended loot factored in or potential infusion or other sell-able drops.

I personally don't mind either way. I know enough players who clear raids multiple times per week. Some even multiple full clears.

Only issue I would warn against is players with a completion OCD burning out or creating more pressure to raid after the initial raid clear or creating a situation where experienced raiders are given less motivation in helping out. As it stands, a major reason why some players raid beyond their full clear in other raid squads to help is is exactly because raids don't offer continuous daily rewards.

I see your point, maybe there is some middle ground to be found, where repeating raids isn't worthless but not good enough to be a grind content. i have seen many posts from you in the forum and i apreciate you taking the time to reply here . tyvm

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@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Antycypator.9874 said:KP, LI/DL and should be once per week, but other rewards (Gold, Shards/Crystals, exotic items and chance for Asc item) — daily. It's still low income compared to specific OW farms or FoTM, but I would probably do raids more, because I actually enjoy raids.

@sokeenoppa.5384 said:That would be ~700 gold/week IF player would do full clear every day. Imo that sounds kinda balanced when compared to other gold farming methods. It would also perhaps make raids less dead content.

Edit: just correct me if i said stupid about the gold from FC, i really dont remember anymore how much it is ?

It's 25 encounters (rewarded):W1: VG, Pre-Gorse, Gorseval, SabethaW2: Sloth, Trio, MatthiasW3: Escort, KC, Twisted Castle, XeraW4: Cairn, MO, Samarog, DeimosW5: SH, River, Statues, DhummW6: CA, Largos, QadimW7: Sabir, Adina, Qadim 2.0Total: 25, so 50g + additional bonus [doubled rewards from 2 random wings] = 62-66g.

I counted the exotics and other loot in that aswell. They add up fast. It is after all one Guaranteed exotic and some yellow uni gear if im not mistaken. But still 100 was a bit of an overkill. 80-90 depending about rng sounds more correct.

Actually 100g is about right on average.

The pure gold reward is around 60-66g. The reward in guaranteed exotic items is between 7.5 - 25 gold (depending on the exotic items. I calculated 0.30 to 1g per reward. Average should be a bit higher given often at least 1-2 valuable sigils are in there). The Magnetite Shards and Gaeting Crystals are 15g and 18g respectively (at each 150 gained). The CM rewards are 10 gold on top. That is without any ascended loot factored in or potential infusion or other sell-able drops.

I personally don't mind either way. I know enough players who clear raids multiple times per week. Some even multiple full clears.

Only issue I would warn against is players with a completion OCD burning out or creating more pressure to raid after the initial raid clear or creating a situation where experienced raiders are given less motivation in helping out. As it stands, a major reason why some players raid beyond their full clear in other raid squads to help is is exactly because raids don't offer continuous daily rewards.

Didn't even think about the OCD, it might be a proplem indeed. Personally i raid ALOT after my FC so it would be nice to get atleast something to cover the food cost of those runs where i dont get anything ?Then again i would be even happy to get a new achievement called "daily raid boss killer" or something like that.Simply just give player a few gold, some trash loot and 1 or 2 achievement points every day when you kill your first raid boss.

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There are work around options to pressure. In essence a system which:

  • does not create pressure on daily participation or is flexible in its rewards (some such systems are already in game. For example reward tracks. They can be made to always provide a similar amount of progression towards a designated reward irrelevant to the point of acquisition in time outside of game)
  • does not incentivize less participation in other content, this can lead exceedingly fast to burnout (no matter if fractals, wvw, spvp, tutorial raids, open world, etc. All would be affected "if" players suddenly spend 4 hours per day in raids. As a matter of fact, this is just what many fractal gods experience after actually reaching god and running the content daily for years- subjective opinion)
  • does not provide exclusive loot which makes success mandatory. For example: LI/LD make success mandatory in raids. As such pressure is high to get as many as possible before a reset. Gold on the other hand is not mandatory, yet is the most fluent and interchange-able resource in game and as such could also be very desirable

Off the top of my head, and not accounting for this being a solution:We could have a reward track similar progression which allows for reward accumulation outside of regular clears, potentially daily capped in contribution if daily rewards are desired, which pays out at the end of the week. Strike missions already operate on a similar system with their first 3 dailies per week rewarding crystals (yet allowing these dailies to occur during any point in time of the week). The rewards gained would need to be non LI/LD and just additional "common" loot (aka Clovers, Gold, Materials, etc.) as to not create exclusive reward pressure.

This would keep pressure to raid daily lower as well as reduce pressure to raid successfully. The rewards would merely be acquired over more time. This could be expanded upon with weekly resets of the track or capped progression per week, redistributing the necessity to complete raid bosses over a large period of time.

Obviously with more and more such system in place, the reward structure become more and more convoluted, which poses a problem of its own.

TL;DR:The weekly reward cycle has it benefits and detriments both to players who have reached the reward as wells as those who have not. Always keep that in mind.

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@sokeenoppa.5384 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:Sure, why not. At the same time i'd guess OW should get its own legendary armor, and a source of ascended gear as good as magnetites are.

Sure. And naturally raids will get 2 sets of unique legendary weapons, fair trade :)Okay, you win. Let's agree on OW getting the envoy set, not an unique one, and with Raiders being able to buy OW-specific gen 1/2 legendary weapon components with LI.

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@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:Sure, why not. At the same time i'd guess OW should get its own legendary armor, and a source of ascended gear as good as magnetites are.

Sure. And naturally raids will get 2 sets of unique legendary weapons, fair trade :)Okay, you win. Let's agree on OW getting the envoy set, not an unique one, and with Raiders being able to buy OW-specific gen 1/2 legendary weapon components with LI.

I really dont care, just teasing you ?I dont care what rewards open world has/gets. I just want the game mode i play reward me other days than monday when i do my full clear. Rewards can be whatever really, as long as they feel even just a little rewarding

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@sokeenoppa.5384 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:Sure, why not. At the same time i'd guess OW should get its own legendary armor, and a source of ascended gear as good as magnetites are.

Sure. And naturally raids will get 2 sets of unique legendary weapons, fair trade :)Okay, you win. Let's agree on OW getting the envoy set, not an unique one, and with Raiders being able to buy OW-specific gen 1/2 legendary weapon components with LI.

I really dont care, just teasing you ?I dont care what rewards open world has/gets. I just want the game mode i play reward me other days than monday when i do my full clear. Rewards can be whatever really, as long as they feel even just a little rewarding

yes, this is what i feel, i either burn it all on monday or split clears between 2 days and the rest of the day i am getting as much from raids as i get from a champion chest

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@Akir.9312 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:Sure, why not. At the same time i'd guess OW should get its own legendary armor, and a source of ascended gear as good as magnetites are.

Sure. And naturally raids will get 2 sets of unique legendary weapons, fair trade :)Okay, you win. Let's agree on OW getting the envoy set, not an unique one, and with Raiders being able to buy OW-specific gen 1/2 legendary weapon components with LI.

I really dont care, just teasing you ?I dont care what rewards open world has/gets. I just want the game mode i play reward me other days than monday when i do my full clear. Rewards can be whatever really, as long as they feel even just a little rewarding

yes, this is what i feel, i either burn it all on monday or split clears between 2 days and the rest of the day i am getting as much from raids as i get from a champion chest

Im leading training raids or just having fun with lfg groups rest of the week, feels bad that im kinda like losing money while doing so because of food. Sure one could argue that food is optional but anyways.

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I like these ideas as I can see an opportunity for training guilds to run more training groups, allowing newer players to get more reps in this content. By maintaining the existing rewards to a weekly cycle but allow trash/gold drops for repeat clears, it opens up this opportunity by incentivizing repeat clears for veteran raiders but doesn't make them 'required'.

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