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Elite specialization tradeoffs?


Shroud.2307

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What are the tradeoffs for each specialization? Here are the ones I know;

  • Scrapper: Reduced maximum health, no access to elite F5

  • Holosmith: No access to elite F5

  • Reaper: Increased Shroud degeneration

  • Scourge: Some traits (Path of Corruption, Dhuumfire) work differently, much higher recharge on Shroud.

  • Daredevil: Reduced range on Steal

  • Deadeye: ??? Stolen skills changed ???

  • Herald: ???

  • Renegade: ???

  • Druid: Reduced pet damage

  • Soulbeast: Only one pet can be used at a time

  • Berserker: Reduced armor

  • Spellbreaker: All Bursts count as 2 bars of Adrenaline

  • Dragonhunter: ???

  • Firebrand: ???

  • Mirage: Endurance bar reduced to 1

  • Chronomancer: ??? Shatters changed ???

  • Tempest: ???

  • Weaver: ???

Tradeoff = a balance achieved between two desirable but incompatible features; a compromise."a trade-off between objectivity and relevance"

Which of these elite specs do not have this?

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Reaper also loses the ranged attacks on Shroud. Faster health degen was applied as a general nerf to Reaper rather than as a tradeoff, although it does fit a general idea of core necro being the tanky build while Reaper is more DPS-oriented.

Scourge loses regular shroud, being replaced by the shade skills.

Deadeye has Steal replaced altogether with Mark, which, as you say, changes the stolen skills.

Herald and Renegade both lose the core F2, which is primarily an energy management skill but which also provides another buff when used depending on the legend.

Berserker only loses armour when in a rage - what they actually have traded out is the ability to use adrenal skills without being in a rage.

Dragonhunter and Firebrand lose the instant-activation core virtues.

Chronomancer has their shatters changed as you note.

Weaver has a 3s cooldown on all attunements when switching (regular elementalist has a 10s cooldown on the attunement you just switched out of, but other attunements do not incur a cooldown).

Tempest currently does not have an explicit tradeoff (longer recharge on using an overload doesn't count, since that only kicks in if you choose to use an overload, you can otherwise play a tempest just as a regular elementalist) - however, elementalist is probably in a state at the moment where it would be better to give core elementalist something (as happened with revenant) than give something to core tempest.

And lets not forget that ALL elite specialisations give up a core traitline. This matters more for some professions than others, but in some cases a relatively weak explicit tradeoff is counterbalanced by having core traitlines that are good enough that giving up a core traitline is a considerable tradeoff (guardian is a good example of this - many people say that the explicit tradeoff is weak because the elite virtues are better in most circumstances than the core virtues, but guardian core is probably the core that is most used across a variety of game modes, since the core traitlines are good enough to justify it).

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@"Shroud.2307" said:What are the tradeoffs for each specialization? Here are the ones I know;

  • Scrapper: Reduced maximum health, no access to elite F5
  • Holosmith: No access to elite F5

More or less. Not sure Holosmith's is a fair trade off, thought.

  • Reaper: Increased Shroud degeneration

You mainly trade a skillset for another that is a bit more costly.

  • Scourge: Some traits (Path of Corruption, Dhuumfire) work differently, much higher recharge on Shroud.

I wouldn't say that those are trade off, it's more poor balance than anything. What the scourge trade is the "transformation" for skills that are accessible out of shrouds. it's a freedom gain at the cost of survivability.

  • Daredevil: Reduced range on Steal
  • Deadeye: ??? Stolen skills changed ???

Loss of mobility on F1, half for the daredevil and complete for the deadeye.

  • Herald: ???
  • Renegade: ???

For both it's a trade off in energy management. Core have the ability to ponctually resplenish it's energy, Herald the ability to apply a constant drain on it's energy and Renegade have heavier requierement on energy.

  • Druid: Reduced pet damage
  • Soulbeast: Only one pet can be used at a time

More or less, the ranger's e-specs trade offs aren't ideal.

  • Berserker: Reduced armor

Not really, it's a trade off for more power and condition damage within the same trait. The trade off of the berserk is that it's bursts are gated behind "berserk mode" and that he only use 1 bar of adrenaline for each burst.

  • Spellbreaker: All Bursts count as 2 bars of Adrenaline

More or less.

  • Dragonhunter: ???

Slightly higher CD and a cast time on it's virtue that are instant for core.

  • Firebrand: ???

A shared amount of "charge" to use it's tome skills. I believe there is to much charge to use for this trade off to be fair but that's just my opinion.

  • Mirage: Endurance bar reduced to 1
  • Chronomancer: ??? Shatters changed ???

Yes, that's it.

  • Tempest: ???

Longer attunment CD, which can be extended even further by overloading.

  • Weaver: ???

Loss of flexibility due to shared CD on attunment swap. (Or so I think, I'm not sure if the shared CD is a thing). Anyway, if the skill 4 and 5 of a specific attunment are what you need, it take longer for you to get them, which in essence can put you into a jeopardy.

Tradeoff = a balance achieved between two desirable but incompatible features; a compromise."a trade-off between objectivity and relevance"

Which of these elite specs do not have this?

They all have a trade off, some of those trade off are more fair than other, thought.

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All Especs trade something off.

But some just gain so much benefit the tradeoffs don't matter.

Herald and Renegade are examples of this:They lose an active which gives Energy and a buff, but they gain so much more if yu include the new Legends they can slot as well as the weapon loadouts they can field.

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Spellbreaker has 2 adrenaline bars but can only use T1 bursts. So Grandmasters like Cleansing Ire, Berserker's Power lose a lot of their potential from Core builds.

As for Berserker, the inability to use bursts outside of Berserk Mode and when it's activated you get a tooughness penalty on top of the fact that your bursts are T1 bursts again, is a bit of an overkill for the spec in competetive. I really hope for some balance on Berserker. As in: F2 to exit Berserk Mode, no toughness penalty (if not a toughness buff, like 100 extra toughness), or lower Berserk Mode CD. Berserkers on CD are sitting ducks waiting to be killed.

P.S. Whatever the new spec is, I wonder if they go for T1 bursts again, or if they will maintain the T2 and T3 bursts on it. What will the trade-off be hmm.

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Yeah Mesmers have gotten less treatment than every other profession and for the Mirage, losing our second dodge in PvP/WvW is NOT a trade off. It might “seem” like one for some people but that’s because people in the community had to wine to have it happen. But then professions like [Daredevil] get to keep their 3 dishes intaked.

Additionally, the “trade offs” you’ve listed are VERY minor when compared to severely crippling ones like what the Mirage sustained.

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DH and FB get different F1-5 effects that SOME WHAT of an tradeoff but a very week on.

I have always been of the mind that elite spec should lose a wepon equal to the one they get and a utility line equal to the one they get. The lack of a real trade off for all elite spec hold balancing back by a lot for both the core and the elite spec them self.

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@draxynnic.3719 said:And lets not forget that ALL elite specialisations give up a core traitline. This matters more for some professions than others, but in some cases a relatively weak explicit tradeoff is counterbalanced by having core traitlines that are good enough that giving up a core traitline is a considerable tradeoff (guardian is a good example of this - many people say that the explicit tradeoff is weak because the elite virtues are better in most circumstances than the core virtues, but guardian core is probably the core that is most used across a variety of game modes, since the core traitlines are good enough to justify it).

This fact is overlooked way too much. The original design for elite specs was that taking the spec was the tradeoff, because it locked you out of 3 of the 5 core traitlines. To take holosmith as an example, while the loss of the f5 skill isn't much of a loss considering how powerful forge is, the loss of your third traitline is very significant. There isn't a single trait in the holosmith traitline that works without forge: all of them change a forge skill, change what happens when you leave/enter it, change your overheat/max heat, etc. If you don't go into forge at all, you're wasting an entire traitline. This means that holo is much less durable out of forge than core engi, because core has the addition of a third traitline (probably tools or inventions) to keep them alive and supplement their damage. The issue with engineer is that those other core traitlines are just so weak that they can't compare to the value that holosmith brings.

By reworking the core traitlines of some classes, spreading out synergies that require 3 traitlines to work, elite specs could become much more of a tradeoff than they currently are without the need to give profession mechanics forced changes.

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People seem stuck with the whole "trade-off" part, but you can also see it as a change in terms of game play.Necro, reaper and scourge are great examples of that. They quite differently from one another.

Bottom line, all those three play very differently. You could play them similarly, more or less, but they have inherent differences. Here is your trade-off, or change.Unfortunately, the term "trade-off" misleads into thinking about balance... while that is a whole different issue.Of course, we could argue about power level, but that's a different story. One might argue Repear shroud or Scourge shades or whatever to be better or worse... but it depends on circumstances... and individual skills and trait lines then, and their synergies with core trait lines...!

The balance discussion isn't about whether those trade-off are sufficiant in terms of change of mechanics. It should be, in my opinion, about the disporportionate strength between "3 core trait lines" VS "1 elite + 2 core trait lines". Is it outof tune completely or not? (Then of course, we have to account that not every single combination of traits is optimal for DPS or survivability. "Everything" more or less work for open world, but not everything is enjoyable or effective, regardless of trait lines, e-specs, and individual traits you took or not.)

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@Grand Marshal.4098 said:Spellbreaker has 2 adrenaline bars but can only use T1 bursts. So Grandmasters like Cleansing Ire, Berserker's Power lose a lot of their potential from Core builds.

As for Berserker, the inability to use bursts outside of Berserk Mode and when it's activated you get a tooughness penalty on top of the fact that your bursts are T1 bursts again, is a bit of an overkill for the spec in competetive. I really hope for some balance on Berserker. As in: F2 to exit Berserk Mode, no toughness penalty (if not a toughness buff, like 100 extra toughness), or lower Berserk Mode CD. Berserkers on CD are sitting ducks waiting to be killed.

P.S. Whatever the new spec is, I wonder if they go for T1 bursts again, or if they will maintain the T2 and T3 bursts on it. What will the trade-off be hmm.

Berserker is easily the most stupidly, horribly designed spec on the whole game

It's essentially a warrior with only 2 trait lines 30-40% of the time

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@Konrad Curze.5130 said:

@"Grand Marshal.4098" said:Spellbreaker has 2 adrenaline bars but can only use T1 bursts. So Grandmasters like Cleansing Ire, Berserker's Power lose a lot of their potential from Core builds.

As for Berserker, the inability to use bursts outside of Berserk Mode and when it's activated you get a tooughness penalty on top of the fact that your bursts are T1 bursts again, is a bit of an overkill for the spec in competetive. I really hope for some balance on Berserker. As in: F2 to exit Berserk Mode, no toughness penalty (if not a toughness buff, like 100 extra toughness), or lower Berserk Mode CD. Berserkers on CD are sitting ducks waiting to be killed.

P.S. Whatever the new spec is, I wonder if they go for T1 bursts again, or if they will maintain the T2 and T3 bursts on it. What will the trade-off be hmm.

Berserker is easily the most stupidly, horribly designed spec on the whole game

It's essentially a warrior with only 2 trait lines 30-40% of the time

Honestly, I don't get why some people have such a huge problem with how the berserker trait line functions.Holosmith goes even further than this class, the entire trait line is built on the photonforge, not a single trait in that line works without the photonforge at all.

Yet you don't read people complaining all the time "holosmith has no trait line 50% of the time!"....

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@Kodama.6453 said:

@"Konrad Curze.5130" said:Berserker is easily the most stupidly, horribly designed spec on the whole game

It's essentially a warrior with only 2 trait lines 30-40% of the time

Honestly, I don't get why some people have such a huge problem with how the berserker trait line functions.Holosmith goes even further than this class, the
entire
trait line is built on the photonforge, not a single trait in that line works without the photonforge at all.

Yet you don't read people complaining all the time "holosmith has no trait line 50% of the time!"....

I'd say that it's most certainly because holosmith's overall performances are more appaeling than berserker's. The same goes for the gameplay, it certainly feel worse to play berserker than holosmith (even if it's a very subjective thing to say).

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@Kodama.6453 said:

@"Grand Marshal.4098" said:Spellbreaker has 2 adrenaline bars but can only use T1 bursts. So Grandmasters like Cleansing Ire, Berserker's Power lose a lot of their potential from Core builds.

As for Berserker, the inability to use bursts outside of Berserk Mode and when it's activated you get a tooughness penalty on top of the fact that your bursts are T1 bursts again, is a bit of an overkill for the spec in competetive. I really hope for some balance on Berserker. As in: F2 to exit Berserk Mode, no toughness penalty (if not a toughness buff, like 100 extra toughness), or lower Berserk Mode CD. Berserkers on CD are sitting ducks waiting to be killed.

P.S. Whatever the new spec is, I wonder if they go for T1 bursts again, or if they will maintain the T2 and T3 bursts on it. What will the trade-off be hmm.

Berserker is easily the most stupidly, horribly designed spec on the whole game

It's essentially a warrior with only 2 trait lines 30-40% of the time

Honestly, I don't get why some people have such a huge problem with how the berserker trait line functions.Holosmith goes even further than this class, the
entire
trait line is built on the photonforge, not a single trait in that line works without the photonforge at all.

Yet you don't read people complaining all the time "holosmith has no trait line 50% of the time!"....

Issue with Berserker is how it is a warrior only during Berserk. Warriors are sustained via Bursts. When Berserk is on CD and you need to build 30 adrenaline to re-activate it, you lose access to bursts. Don't get me wrong, I always play Berserker as a roamer. I find it fun. But compared to Core and SPellbreaker , it severely lacks in the sustain department, despite not dishing out huge damage. To do that, you run glass canon builds and need a firebrand with you.

Any warrior espec should be a good solo roamer. Warriors are meant tot ake care of themselves. In any case, toughness penalty+time gated T1 bursts (Adrenal Health, Cleansing Ire, Berserker's Power get affected) greatly tones down it's potential. Savage Instinct on Berserk is all you got to survive. On top of that, awfully predictable f1 skills and subpar utilities. Holosmith utilities >>>>>>>>> Berserker utilities

In any case, this can be fixed with little tweaks on Berserker, but what needs to be fixed rn is core.

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@Kodama.6453 said:

@"Grand Marshal.4098" said:Spellbreaker has 2 adrenaline bars but can only use T1 bursts. So Grandmasters like Cleansing Ire, Berserker's Power lose a lot of their potential from Core builds.

As for Berserker, the inability to use bursts outside of Berserk Mode and when it's activated you get a tooughness penalty on top of the fact that your bursts are T1 bursts again, is a bit of an overkill for the spec in competetive. I really hope for some balance on Berserker. As in: F2 to exit Berserk Mode, no toughness penalty (if not a toughness buff, like 100 extra toughness), or lower Berserk Mode CD. Berserkers on CD are sitting ducks waiting to be killed.

P.S. Whatever the new spec is, I wonder if they go for T1 bursts again, or if they will maintain the T2 and T3 bursts on it. What will the trade-off be hmm.

Berserker is easily the most stupidly, horribly designed spec on the whole game

It's essentially a warrior with only 2 trait lines 30-40% of the time

Honestly, I don't get why some people have such a huge problem with how the berserker trait line functions.Holosmith goes even further than this class, the
entire
trait line is built on the photonforge, not a single trait in that line works without the photonforge at all.

Yet you don't read people complaining all the time "holosmith has no trait line 50% of the time!"....

because thats false

holos get stuff when in forge, and also while out of forge

a holo out of forge is getting a pretty awesome healing from losing heat , and sword skills and all exceed utilities gain extra effects while heat is over 50.

a warrior with berserker on cooldown is literally a core warrior with 2 trait lines instead of 3. zero effect whatsoever.

berserker is the most ineptly made spec in the whole game by a huge margin

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@Konrad Curze.5130 said:

a warrior with berserker on cooldown is literally a core warrior with 2 trait lines instead of 3. zero effect whatsoever.

False.Effects which you can get from the berserker trait line while berserk mode is on cooldown:

  • rage skills inflict burning
  • 7% of precision is converted into ferocity
  • +120/+240 condition damage, based on you using a torch or not
  • increased burning duration, fire aura on crit and berserker skills detonating fire auras to inflict damage and burning
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@Kodama.6453 said:

a warrior with berserker on cooldown is literally a core warrior with 2 trait lines instead of 3. zero effect whatsoever.

False.Effects which you can get from the berserker trait line while berserk mode is on cooldown:
  • rage skills inflict burning
  • 7% of precision is converted into ferocity
  • +120/+240 condition damage, based on you using a torch or not
  • increased burning duration, fire aura on crit and berserker skills detonating fire auras to inflict damage and burning

That's picking the worst trait options on the line, giving up all utility you could possibly have, and still none of that amounts to a core line. Hell, that barely amounts to the minors. and you named 2 mutually exclusive ones LOL

Plus the 300 toughness penalty during berserker.Plus losing access to original burst skills.Plus losing traits that care about burst levels like e.x adrenal health, cleansing ire or the most popular and ironically named berserker's power

meanwhile for engis none of their general traits do less or stop working, they get more defense during forge not less, they can go in and out as situation demands, and the cd is lower.

look, I wouldnt say holo is stellar design, it isnt for the reasons you already mentioned. Im not proposing holo as the pinacle of good design, quite the contrary

but out of the 2 holo is clearly the MUCH, MUCH better designed one, berserker was designed by someone with butt instead of brains... REdesigned actually, which makes it even more pathetic and sad, its a fail within a fail, failception

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Berserker need F2 for exit and more.. For example after ''Burst of Aggression'' (3s) you can exit.. adrenaline increase from 10 to 20 or 30 (why ? because if only 1 axe skill don't crit I need to use some AA to get enough adrenaline for f1), no longer berserk duration but if you loose all adrenalin, loose berserk.. after enter berserk outgoing damage will be increased for few seconds, if you exit berserk with more than 50% of adrenaline you wont have berserk cd.. or if you hit with head butt your berserk mode will be fully recharged etc etc..

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@Kodama.6453 said:

a warrior with berserker on cooldown is literally a core warrior with 2 trait lines instead of 3. zero effect whatsoever.

False.Effects which you can get from the berserker trait line while berserk mode is on cooldown:
  • rage skills inflict burning
  • 7% of precision is converted into ferocity
  • +120/+240 condition damage, based on you using a torch or not
  • increased burning duration, fire aura on crit and berserker skills detonating fire auras to inflict damage and burning

You forgot:10% increased healing from all sources3 might stacks and Stability when breaking stuns.

So, in all. out of 9 traits 6 have effects outside of Berserk Mode.

The real issue is that so much of Warrior sustain and DPS is focused on hitting with Burst skills and while not in Berserk Mode that is locked out.

That and a Holo can leave Photon forge after 6s if they so choose to, whereas a Berserker has to stay in Berserk Mode until the timer runs out. I think that and the -300 toughness are more fair to discuss here.

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@"Konrad Curze.5130" said:That's picking the worst trait options on the line, giving up all utility you could possibly have, and still none of that amounts to a core line. Hell, that barely amounts to the minors. and you named 2 mutually exclusive ones LOL

To be fair, condi berserker isn't "bad" (even if it's out of flavor at the moment) and out of the 9 major traits, 6 have effects that do not need to use berserk mode.

  • Last blaze: add burning to rage skills
  • Blood reaction: convert 7% precision into ferocity
  • Heat the soul: increased condition damage.
  • Dead or alive: 10% increase incoming healing
  • King of fire: 10% increase burn duration. Gain fire aura on crit.
  • Eternal champion: gain stab and might when breaking stun.

I mean, it could be worse, to continue to take holosmith as an example, none of it's traits have any effect without using photon forge.

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fine, I'll mend my statement

a berserker is not a core warrior with 2 trait lines when out of berserker

a berserker is a core warrior with 2 trait lines when out of berserker, plus a couple incredibly underwhelming extra effects that amount to 10% of a trait line, 15% being very generous, and only if you consistently pick the worst of the options presented for each tier. all of this, on top of the hefty trade offs and penalties that berserker already apply, of course

@Dadnir.5038 said:I mean, it could be worse, to continue to take holosmith as an example, none of it's traits have any effect without using photon forge.

I mean, the discussion isnt explicitly centered around traits.

a holosmith, by design, is still a holosmith when out of forge, all the extras they gain passively apply and make a definite difference vs a core engi, if your out of forge your still getting the heat healing and the extra effects from sword ,exceed and toolbelts skills, or the damage when dodging if traited, all of those say YEAH IM STILL A HOLOSMITH.

berserker doesnt interact with warrior in any way, shape or form outside of berserker mode.

What defines a berserker out of BM are all the things that it misses, not the ones that it gains. if you guys want to make a point that it gets +120 condi or 10% more healing ok, but that does not say YEAH IM STILL A BERSERKER, thats pathetic

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@Konrad Curze.5130 said:fine, I'll mend my statement

a berserker is not a core warrior with 2 trait lines when out of berserker

a berserker is a core warrior with 2 trait lines when out of berserker, plus a couple incredibly underwhelming extra effects that amount to 10% of a trait line, 15% being very generous, and only if you consistently pick the worst of the options presented for each tier

10% increased healing from all sources is a pretty nice bonus.An extra 5%-10% extra critical damage is a pretty nice bonus.~5-10% more condition damage is a pretty nice bonus.Burning on rage skills is extra damage and cover conditions. Cover conditions are pretty important.Fire aura is extra might. Might is extra sustain and DPS for warriors.

All of those are the kind of traits that other specs would take within a traitline.

The problem with Berserker is that access to core mechanic traits are locked into Berserk Mode, which we do not have the ability to end on our own, nor are we able to enter it without full adrenaline.

Berserker would greatly benefit from the following:

F1: Enter Berserk Mode. While in Berserk Mode becomes the Primal Burst of the equipped weapon.F2: Strikes around the Berserker, gains 1 Strike of adrenaline per foe struck (10 total strikes if you hit 5 people), and gains 1 stack of might per foe struck. If you are in Berserk Mode this skill causes you to exit Berserk Mode. Does not cost adrenaline, does not count towards burst related traits, 6s CD. This skill is available while in or out of Berserk Mode.

Berserk Mode can be entered at 0, 10, 20, or 30 adrenaline. Base duration is 12s, with an extra 6s of duration gained per 10 adrenaline spent. Adrenaline spent triggers burst related traits as normal per adrenaline spent, but if entered with 0 adrenaline these traits are not triggered. The base CD of Berserk Mode is unchanged.

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@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@Konrad Curze.5130 said:fine, I'll mend my statement

a berserker is not a core warrior with 2 trait lines when out of berserker

a berserker is a core warrior with 2 trait lines when out of berserker, plus a couple incredibly underwhelming extra effects that amount to 10% of a trait line, 15% being very generous, and only if you consistently pick the worst of the options presented for each tier

10% increased healing from all sources is a pretty nice bonus.An extra 5%-10% extra critical damage is a pretty nice bonus.~5-10% more condition damage is a pretty nice bonus.Burning on rage skills is extra damage and cover conditions. Cover conditions are pretty important.Fire aura is extra might. Might is extra sustain and DPS for warriors.

All of those are the kind of traits that other specs would take within a traitline.

The problem with Berserker is that access to core mechanic traits are locked into Berserk Mode, which we do not have the ability to end on our own, nor are we able to enter it without full Adrenaline.

Berserker would greatly benefit from the following:

F1: Enter Berserk Mode. While in Berserk Mode becomes the Primal Burst of the equipped weapon.F2: Strikes around the Berserker, gains 1 Strike of adrenaline per foe struck (10 total strikes if you hit 5 people), and gains 1 stack of might per foe struck. If you are in Berserk Mode this skill causes you o exit Berserk Mode. Does not cost adrenaline, does not count towards burst related traits, 6s CD. This skill is available while in or out of Berserk Mode.

Berserk Mode can be entered at 0, 10, 20, or 30 Adrenaline. Base duration is 12s, with an extra 6s of duration gained per 10 Adrenaline spent. Adrenaline spent triggers burst related traits as normal per adrenaline spent, but if entered with 0 adrenaline these traits are not triggered. The base CD of Berserk Mode is unchanged.

holosmith skills and weapon get increased effects when you are above a certain heat thresholdberserker skills increase berserker duration

holosmith skills(and weapon, and toolbelts) gain effects when you are out of forge, they are designed to be enhanced when out of holo. And you dont have to trait for this, it comes baseline.

berserker skills lose effects when you are out of berserker, increased berserker duration when not in berserker does nothing at all. berserker skills are diminished when out of berserker, they do less

just a cursory look at the most basic level of the design of each spec tell us all we need to know to see which spec took some brainpower to make and which one was made by the dev's 4 year old son while daddy was procrastinating, probably playing FFXIV

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@Konrad Curze.5130 said:

@Konrad Curze.5130 said:fine, I'll mend my statement

a berserker is not a core warrior with 2 trait lines when out of berserker

a berserker is a core warrior with 2 trait lines when out of berserker, plus a couple incredibly underwhelming extra effects that amount to 10% of a trait line, 15% being very generous, and only if you consistently pick the worst of the options presented for each tier

10% increased healing from all sources is a pretty nice bonus.An extra 5%-10% extra critical damage is a pretty nice bonus.~5-10% more condition damage is a pretty nice bonus.Burning on rage skills is extra damage and cover conditions. Cover conditions are pretty important.Fire aura is extra might. Might is extra sustain and DPS for warriors.

All of those are the kind of traits that other specs would take within a traitline.

The problem with Berserker is that access to core mechanic traits are locked into Berserk Mode, which we do not have the ability to end on our own, nor are we able to enter it without full Adrenaline.

Berserker would greatly benefit from the following:

F1: Enter Berserk Mode. While in Berserk Mode becomes the Primal Burst of the equipped weapon.F2: Strikes around the Berserker, gains 1 Strike of adrenaline per foe struck (10 total strikes if you hit 5 people), and gains 1 stack of might per foe struck. If you are in Berserk Mode this skill causes you o exit Berserk Mode. Does not cost adrenaline, does not count towards burst related traits, 6s CD. This skill is available while in or out of Berserk Mode.

Berserk Mode can be entered at 0, 10, 20, or 30 Adrenaline. Base duration is 12s, with an extra 6s of duration gained per 10 Adrenaline spent. Adrenaline spent triggers burst related traits as normal per adrenaline spent, but if entered with 0 adrenaline these traits are not triggered. The base CD of Berserk Mode is unchanged.

holosmith skills and weapon get increased effects when you are above a certain heat thresholdberserker skills increase berserker duration

holosmith skills(and weapon, and toolbelts) gain effects when you are out of forge, they are designed to be enhanced when out of holo. And you dont have to trait for this, it comes baseline.

berserker skills lose effects when you are out of berserker, increased berserker duration when not in berserker does nothing at all. berserker skills are diminished when out of berserker, they do less

just a cursory look at the most basic level of the design of each spec tell us all we need to know to see which spec took some brainpower to make and which one was made by the dev's 4 year old son while daddy was procrastinating, probably playing FFXIV

Sounds like you should be playing Holo of FF14 then. Neither would be bad choices.

That said you would be better served talking about how to make Berserker function better at a higher level in regards to it's own mechanics rather than be QQing about it in relation to a different espec from another class.

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@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:Sounds like you should be playing Holo of FF14 then. Neither would be bad choices.

nah, despite what it may look like Im not too keen of holo either, its just the perfect class to draw comparisons to berserker from a design and mechanical PoV._

I already play firebrand and renegade, why would I settle for anything less than vast overpoweredness if Anet lets me pick it free of any cost whatsoever. specs that are simply better than the rest for no reason, they just are.

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:That said you would be better served talking about how to make Berserker function better at a higher level in regards to it's own mechanics rather than be QQing about it in relation to a different espec from another class.

yeah, because that has worked wonders for the hundreds if not thousands of people that have been talking about how to make Berserker function better at a higher level for years and years. because you know, they have not been totally, completly, utterly neglected and ignored all this time, right

I mean, berserker did get a rework long ago, which in many ways left it in a more ackward (if not downright worse) spot. and since that radio silence.

and you still have faith that constructive criticism does anything? man, I admire your tenacity

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