Sobx.1758 Posted February 10, 2021 Share Posted February 10, 2021 @Astralporing.1957 said:@Obtena.7952 said:@Astralporing.1957 said:@Obtena.7952 said:Just MAYBE the answer to the OP's question is that Anet boxed themselves OUT of a solution for Ascended Runes and Sigils.That assumes that there should be an ascended version in the first place. My point was that, since ascended are something from normal gear progression, which runes/sigils do not use, there needs not be a "solution" for ascended runes/sigils at all. So you don't think there is a 4th teir of runes/sigils because 'wording'? Um, OK. Maybe. I would think wording isn't really that significant a hang up if Anet were to add that 4th teir between exotic and legendary.Again, there's no "exotic" tier. It's not just a matter of wording, it's the whole tiering system for runes/sigils working differently than the one for gear. Where the gear has 6 tiers (plus Legendary), the runes/sigils have 3 tiers (plus legendary). You can't just draw any comparison between those based on the fact that some tiers have the same colors assigned. The whole tiering system is completely different. This whole discussion seems really useless, but I'll still go in because apparently that's what I (<- smallest strikethrough I've seen) people do. GW2 uses color coded names to determine the gear tier and I don't see why we'd try to claim sigils/runes are any different from that. They're color coded just like regular gear and because of that, I'm prety sure you're wrong and there indeed IS an exotic tier. Just because some of the tiers were cut out, it doesn't make exotic tier any less exotic.That said, I don't see how it changes anything :no_mouth: 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted February 10, 2021 Share Posted February 10, 2021 @"Sobx.1758" said:That said, I don't see how it changes anything :no_mouth:It changes things, because we're not debating specific suggestions but seem to be stuck on debating existence of some mythical tier that a lot of people think should exist "just because", without any justification for it.OP started this thread with the question why that "purple tier" for runes/sigils was not introduced yet. With the silent assumption that it was obvious it should be introduced, and that lack of it is somehow an omission that should be fixed.That assumption is wrong. Unlike with gear (where you can keep increasing stats till infinity, and adding new tiers is relatively easy, as long as you are okay with powe creep) the rune/gear system was designed around a specific number of tiers, and so adding to it is not trivial. And it's definitely not something that is "obvious" or supposed to happen. There is no "opportunity" for adding a tier. At the same time OP didn't present any suggestion of what adding that tier would mean. There have been other suggestions how to expand the rune system since then, but for the most part those have already been covered by Legendary tier.specifically, i am arguing against this kind of reasoning:@"Orpheal.8263" said:Runes follow exactly the same tier system, as like all other equipment, so its just logical, that also upgrades should have in their final form ascended quality versionsWe should not start with this kind of "logic", because it is based on assumption that is completely wrong. What we can do (if we want) is to present an idea about how rune system can be expanded, and debate this idea. But if we do that, we should be debating the suggestion based on its own merits alone. We should not be using the "ascended" argument as if it's worth anything - because it isn't.TL/DR version:"lack" of an ascended/purple tier is not an argument for introducing it, because the current system is designed in such a way that there's no lack of any tier. If someone suggests a new tier, then an argument for it would be it offfering something that would be considered valuable enough to justify introducing it. Mere introduction of another tier is not such a justification. And having this tier be colored purple is even less of an argument than that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swagger.1459 Posted February 10, 2021 Author Share Posted February 10, 2021 @Astralporing.1957 said:@Obtena.7952 said:@Astralporing.1957 said:@Obtena.7952 said:Just MAYBE the answer to the OP's question is that Anet boxed themselves OUT of a solution for Ascended Runes and Sigils.That assumes that there should be an ascended version in the first place. My point was that, since ascended are something from normal gear progression, which runes/sigils do not use, there needs not be a "solution" for ascended runes/sigils at all. So you don't think there is a 4th teir of runes/sigils because 'wording'? Um, OK. Maybe. I would think wording isn't really that significant a hang up if Anet were to add that 4th teir between exotic and legendary.Again, there's no "exotic" tier. It's not just a matter of wording, it's the whole tiering system for runes/sigils working differently than the one for gear. Where the gear has 6 tiers (plus Legendary), the runes/sigils have 3 tiers (plus legendary). You can't just draw any comparison between those based on the fact that some tiers have the same colors assigned. The whole tiering system is completely different.I mean, if you specifically want some runesets that are stronger than superior, then say so, but claiming there should be an ascended tier just because gear has one is an argument that is based on either conscious misdirection, or complete lack of understanding of differences between those systems.Well, actually, there is indeed an “exotic” tier to both runes and sigils... https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Rune“Minor runes have no minimum level and have two bonuses, listed as (1) and (2).Major runes require armor at level 39 or above and provide four bonuses, (1) – (4).Superior runes can be applied to armor at level 60 or above and include six bonuses, (1) – (6).Legendary Runes have the power to take on the properties of any other rune”And...https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Sigil“Minor sigils have no minimum level.Major sigils require a level 39 weapon or above.Superior sigils require a level 60 weapon or above.Legendary Sigils have the power to take on the properties of any other sigil”https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Item#QualitySo yes, the item quality/rarity of “Exotic” does exist for runes and sigils, and the item quality/rarity of “Ascended” is missing for both runes and sigils. Ty! Ttyl! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swagger.1459 Posted February 10, 2021 Author Share Posted February 10, 2021 @Obtena.7952 said:@"Swagger.1459" said:All this ascended and legendary stuff has been added, so I'm confused as to why runes and sigils have been stuck at the exotic level? Let's ask a different question. WHAT would be the step up from exotic to ascended runes/sigils?Maybe https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/85223/party-even-harder-with-ascended-runes-and-sigilsWhich follows the same theme as https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Ascended_feast Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Linken.6345 Posted February 10, 2021 Share Posted February 10, 2021 @Swagger.1459 said:@Astralporing.1957 said:@Obtena.7952 said:@Astralporing.1957 said:@Obtena.7952 said:Just MAYBE the answer to the OP's question is that Anet boxed themselves OUT of a solution for Ascended Runes and Sigils.That assumes that there should be an ascended version in the first place. My point was that, since ascended are something from normal gear progression, which runes/sigils do not use, there needs not be a "solution" for ascended runes/sigils at all. So you don't think there is a 4th teir of runes/sigils because 'wording'? Um, OK. Maybe. I would think wording isn't really that significant a hang up if Anet were to add that 4th teir between exotic and legendary.Again, there's no "exotic" tier. It's not just a matter of wording, it's the whole tiering system for runes/sigils working differently than the one for gear. Where the gear has 6 tiers (plus Legendary), the runes/sigils have 3 tiers (plus legendary). You can't just draw any comparison between those based on the fact that some tiers have the same colors assigned. The whole tiering system is completely different.I mean, if you specifically want some runesets that are stronger than superior, then say so, but claiming there should be an ascended tier just because gear has one is an argument that is based on either conscious misdirection, or complete lack of understanding of differences between those systems.Well, actually, there is indeed an “exotic” tier to both runes and sigils... https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Rune“Minor runes have no minimum level and have two bonuses, listed as (1) and (2).Major runes require armor at level 39 or above and provide four bonuses, (1) – (4).Superior runes can be applied to armor at level 60 or above and include six bonuses, (1) – (6).Legendary Runes have the power to take on the properties of any other rune”And...https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Sigil“Minor sigils have no minimum level.Major sigils require a level 39 weapon or above.Superior sigils require a level 60 weapon or above.Legendary Sigils have the power to take on the properties of any other sigil”https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Item#QualitySo yes, the item quality/rarity of “Exotic” does exist for runes and sigils, and the item quality/rarity of “Ascended” is missing for both runes and sigils. Ty! Ttyl! Were are the white and blue runes and sigils tho, since they are supposed to follow the same rarity as gear to make ascended even worth considering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted February 10, 2021 Share Posted February 10, 2021 @"Swagger.1459" said:Well, actually, there is indeed an “exotic” tier to both runes and sigils... https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Rune“Minor runes have no minimum level and have two bonuses, listed as (1) and (2).Major runes require armor at level 39 or above and provide four bonuses, (1) – (4).Superior runes can be applied to armor at level 60 or above and include six bonuses, (1) – (6).Legendary Runes have the power to take on the properties of any other rune”And...https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Sigil“Minor sigils have no minimum level.Major sigils require a level 39 weapon or above.Superior sigils require a level 60 weapon or above.Legendary Sigils have the power to take on the properties of any other sigil”https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Item#QualitySo yes, the item quality/rarity of “Exotic” does exist for runes and sigils, and the item quality/rarity of “Ascended” is missing for both runes and sigils. Ty! Ttyl!Yes, precisely, thank you. As you have just illustrated here, contrary to your claim, runes are not classified according to the gear tiers (basic, fine, masterwork, rare, exotic, ascended), but have their own tiering system (minor, major, superior). Moreover, unlike the gear tier system, which is open, and easily allows for adding new tiers on top of already existing ones, rune tiering system is a closed one (because, seeing as you have only 6 rune slots you can use at the same time, 6-rune set is the best you can have). Adding anything above Superior tier would require either reworking the whole rune system, or a change in paradigm between tiers. As they exist now, runes have no conceptual space whatsoever for adding any higher tiers. So, again, it's not like "ascended tier" is missing here. There's simply no space for it at all within the confines of the current system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sobx.1758 Posted February 10, 2021 Share Posted February 10, 2021 @Astralporing.1957 said:@"Sobx.1758" said:That said, I don't see how it changes anything :no_mouth:It changes things, because we're not debating specific suggestions but seem to be stuck on debating existence of some mythical tier that a lot of people think should exist "just because", without any justification for it.OP started this thread with the question why that "purple tier" for runes/sigils was not introduced yet. With the silent assumption that it was obvious it should be introduced, and that lack of it is somehow an omission that should be fixed.That assumption is wrong. Unlike with gear (where you can keep increasing stats till infinity, and adding new tiers is relatively easy, as long as you are okay with powe creep) the rune/gear system was designed around a specific number of tiers, and so adding to it is not trivial. And it's definitely not something that is "obvious" or supposed to happen. There is no "opportunity" for adding a tier. At the same time OP didn't present any suggestion of what adding that tier would mean. There have been other suggestions how to expand the rune system since then, but for the most part those have already been covered by Legendary tier.specifically, i am arguing against this kind of reasoning:@"Orpheal.8263" said:Runes follow exactly the same tier system, as like all other equipment, so its just logical, that also upgrades should have in their final form ascended quality versionsWe should not start with this kind of "logic", because it is based on assumption that is completely wrong. What we can do (if we want) is to present an idea about how rune system can be expanded, and debate this idea. But if we do that, we should be debating the suggestion based on its own merits alone. We should not be using the "ascended" argument as if it's worth anything - because it isn't.Ok. But here's the thing: I think it IS a similar tier system to the regular gear and if you'd say "exotic sigils", most people would probably know exactly what you mean specifically because of the color coding. But despite that, I still don't think higher tiers need to be introduced to the game, simply because there's no need for that. And that's what imo would be better argued about than whether it could or could not be considered being called "exotic".Overally I agree with that person (and at the same time disagree with you) about color coded tiers, BUT I disagree that it's a sufficient reason for introducing higher tier of runes "to match the pattern" (which in turn means I agree with you about not adding that to the game). Now based on that I think that talking about that naming/color coding system is mostly irrelevant, because if the consensus of this whole "debate" would be that runes/sigils follow the same gear tiering, it would NOT suddenly change your (or mine) mind about higher tiers not being needed in the game. The same is probably true for the "opposite side", where proving it's not the same naming/tiering scheme won't change their mind about wanting those "stronger, pink-ier upgrades". Sure, might be wrong, but I think we shouldn't really hang onto the naming schemes and focus on the fact that higher tiers are simply not needed. Yup, that's all. TL/DR version:"lack" of an ascended/purple tier is not an argument for introducing it, True. And imo that's enough of the answer to the post you've linked as an example :p No need to debate whether it is the same grading or not, there's simply no need to add higher tier either way. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swagger.1459 Posted February 10, 2021 Author Share Posted February 10, 2021 @Astralporing.1957 said:@"Swagger.1459" said:Well, actually, there is indeed an “exotic” tier to both runes and sigils... https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Rune“Minor runes have no minimum level and have two bonuses, listed as (1) and (2).Major runes require armor at level 39 or above and provide four bonuses, (1) – (4).Superior runes can be applied to armor at level 60 or above and include six bonuses, (1) – (6).Legendary Runes have the power to take on the properties of any other rune”And...https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Sigil“Minor sigils have no minimum level.Major sigils require a level 39 weapon or above.Superior sigils require a level 60 weapon or above.Legendary Sigils have the power to take on the properties of any other sigil”https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Item#QualitySo yes, the item quality/rarity of “Exotic” does exist for runes and sigils, and the item quality/rarity of “Ascended” is missing for both runes and sigils. Ty! Ttyl!Yes, precisely, thank you. As you have just illustrated here, contrary to your claim, runes are not classified according to the gear tiers (basic, fine, masterwork, rare, exotic, ascended), but have their own tiering system (minor, major, superior). Moreover, unlike the gear tier system, which is open, and easily allows for adding new tiers on top of already existing ones, rune tiering system is a closed one (because, seeing as you have only 6 rune slots you can use at the same time, 6-rune set is the best you can have). Adding anything above Superior tier would require either reworking the whole rune system, or a change in paradigm between tiers. As they exist now, runes have no conceptual space whatsoever for adding any higher tiers. So, again, it's not like "ascended tier" is missing here. There's simply no space for it at all within the confines of the current system.Well, actually, what “rarity” is a https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Superior_Rune_of_Fireworks?... Look like it says “Exotic” to me. Go ahead and please filter through the BLTC for the different rarities. And yes, there aren’t any “Ascended” runes or sigils. There is up to Exotic, then skips to Legendary, no Ascended. Hence the thread. Ty! Have a great day! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sobx.1758 Posted February 10, 2021 Share Posted February 10, 2021 @Swagger.1459 said:@Astralporing.1957 said:@Swagger.1459 said:Well, actually, there is indeed an “exotic” tier to both runes and sigils... https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Rune“Minor runes have no minimum level and have two bonuses, listed as (1) and (2).Major runes require armor at level 39 or above and provide four bonuses, (1) – (4).Superior runes can be applied to armor at level 60 or above and include six bonuses, (1) – (6).Legendary Runes have the power to take on the properties of any other rune”And...https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Sigil“Minor sigils have no minimum level.Major sigils require a level 39 weapon or above.Superior sigils require a level 60 weapon or above.Legendary Sigils have the power to take on the properties of any other sigil”https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Item#QualitySo yes, the item quality/rarity of “Exotic” does exist for runes and sigils, and the item quality/rarity of “Ascended” is missing for both runes and sigils. Ty! Ttyl!Yes, precisely, thank you. As you have just illustrated here, contrary to your claim, runes are not classified according to the gear tiers (basic, fine, masterwork, rare, exotic, ascended), but have their own tiering system (minor, major, superior). Moreover, unlike the gear tier system, which is open, and easily allows for adding new tiers on top of already existing ones, rune tiering system is a closed one (because, seeing as you have only 6 rune slots you can use at the same time, 6-rune set is the best you can have). Adding anything above Superior tier would require either reworking the whole rune system, or a change in paradigm between tiers. As they exist now, runes have no conceptual space whatsoever for adding any higher tiers. So, again, it's not like "ascended tier" is missing here. There's simply no space for it at all within the confines of the current system.Well, actually, what “rarity” is a https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Superior_Rune_of_Fireworks?... Look like it says “Exotic” to me. Go ahead and please filter through the BLTC for the different rarities. And yes, there aren’t any “Ascended” runes or sigils. There is up to Exotic, then skips to Legendary, no Ascended. Hence the thread. Ty! Have a great day! True. ...but there's still no need for stronger runes/sigils, it's not like they lack impact on builds or are too weak for the content we have in the game. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swagger.1459 Posted February 10, 2021 Author Share Posted February 10, 2021 @"Astralporing.1957" Also...Masterwork- https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Minor_Rune_of_the_Fire Rare- https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Major_Rune_of_the_FireExotic- https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Superior_Rune_of_the_FireMasterwork- https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Minor_Sigil_of_VenomRare- https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Major_Sigil_of_VenomExotic- https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Superior_Sigil_of_VenomExotics, but no Ascended. We got Ascended Food. They made Legendary runes with exotic stats. Thread asks about Ascended. Maybe they can put in Ascended and apply that to Legendary runes and sigils instead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sobx.1758 Posted February 10, 2021 Share Posted February 10, 2021 @Swagger.1459 said:@Astralporing.1957 Also...Masterwork- https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Minor_Rune_of_the_Fire Rare- https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Major_Rune_of_the_FireExotic- https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Superior_Rune_of_the_FireMasterwork- https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Minor_Sigil_of_VenomRare- https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Major_Sigil_of_VenomExotic- https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Superior_Sigil_of_VenomExotics, but no Ascended. We got Ascended Food. They made Legendary runes with exotic stats. Thread asks about Ascended. Maybe they can put in Ascended and apply that to Legendary runes and sigils instead. Or maybe they could add weaker sigil/rune tiers and then move rarity/color coding downwards, so you can have your tiers matching, while also not power creeping the game when there's no need for it, but instead have more unused tiers. That's an option, right? But, again, is it needed in the game? I don't think it is. @Astralporing.1957 See, now some people are stuck discussing if the tiering system is the same or not instead of discussing if it's even needed in the game in the first place. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swagger.1459 Posted February 10, 2021 Author Share Posted February 10, 2021 @Sobx.1758 said:@Swagger.1459 said:@Astralporing.1957 said:@Swagger.1459 said:Well, actually, there is indeed an “exotic” tier to both runes and sigils... https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Rune“Minor runes have no minimum level and have two bonuses, listed as (1) and (2).Major runes require armor at level 39 or above and provide four bonuses, (1) – (4).Superior runes can be applied to armor at level 60 or above and include six bonuses, (1) – (6).Legendary Runes have the power to take on the properties of any other rune”And...https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Sigil“Minor sigils have no minimum level.Major sigils require a level 39 weapon or above.Superior sigils require a level 60 weapon or above.Legendary Sigils have the power to take on the properties of any other sigil”https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Item#QualitySo yes, the item quality/rarity of “Exotic” does exist for runes and sigils, and the item quality/rarity of “Ascended” is missing for both runes and sigils. Ty! Ttyl!Yes, precisely, thank you. As you have just illustrated here, contrary to your claim, runes are not classified according to the gear tiers (basic, fine, masterwork, rare, exotic, ascended), but have their own tiering system (minor, major, superior). Moreover, unlike the gear tier system, which is open, and easily allows for adding new tiers on top of already existing ones, rune tiering system is a closed one (because, seeing as you have only 6 rune slots you can use at the same time, 6-rune set is the best you can have). Adding anything above Superior tier would require either reworking the whole rune system, or a change in paradigm between tiers. As they exist now, runes have no conceptual space whatsoever for adding any higher tiers. So, again, it's not like "ascended tier" is missing here. There's simply no space for it at all within the confines of the current system.Well, actually, what “rarity” is a https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Superior_Rune_of_Fireworks?... Look like it says “Exotic” to me. Go ahead and please filter through the BLTC for the different rarities. And yes, there aren’t any “Ascended” runes or sigils. There is up to Exotic, then skips to Legendary, no Ascended. Hence the thread. Ty! Have a great day! True. ...but there's still no need for stronger runes/sigils, it's not like they lack impact on builds or are too weak for the content we have in the game. They could do stats, but they don’t have to do stats... https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/85223/party-even-harder-with-ascended-runes-and-sigils talks about adding https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Booster effects for Ascended runes and sigils. Much like... https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Ascended_feast added in bonus effects. There are options. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kharmin.7683 Posted February 10, 2021 Share Posted February 10, 2021 I'm too casual to understand perhaps. There is no significant difference between ascended and legendary gear, right? If that's so, then what purpose would ascended runes/sigils serve since there exists legendary ones? Sorry if I'm ignorant here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oxstar.7643 Posted February 10, 2021 Share Posted February 10, 2021 Because skill trumps gear in this game and we don't need MORE powercreep to grind towards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted February 10, 2021 Share Posted February 10, 2021 @Sobx.1758 said:@Astralporing.1957 See, now some people are stuck discussing if the tiering system is the same or not instead of discussing if it's even needed in the game in the first place.People were stuck on those points from the very beginning, instead of concentrating on specifics about what one would want a higher tier for. The only time i remember such a discussion had some sense was when people were debating on adding some qol options to the next tier - and this goal has already been realized by legendary rune introduction. I have been trying to change the direction of the discussion, but you're right that it seems it's mostly pointless. People are so invested into justifying why a new tier needs to be introduced that they don't seem to have time to consider what that tier might offer@kharmin.7683 said:I'm too casual to understand perhaps. There is no significant difference between ascended and legendary gear, right? If that's so, then what purpose would ascended runes/sigils serve since there exists legendary ones? Sorry if I'm ignorant here.Yes, that's the point. People keep asking for a next tier, but almost noone says (or even considers) what this new tier should offer (and why might we want it) - and that is the key issue here. Adding a new tier for the simple purpose of adding a tier doesn't sound to me like a compelling argument at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kharmin.7683 Posted February 10, 2021 Share Posted February 10, 2021 @"Astralporing.1957" said:Yes, that's the point. People keep asking for a next tier, but almost noone says (or even considers) what this new tier should offer (and why might we want it) - and that is the key issue here. Adding a new tier for the simple purpose of adding a tier doesn't sound to me like a compelling argument at all.Thanks. That's how I thought I was reading it. I wonder, perhaps, if the request is because "ascended runes/sigils" which would have pretty much the same thing as legendary ones is the thought that they would be easier to obtain much like ascended gear is easier to obtain than legendary gear. Other than this point, I can't see any real reason for the request/suggestion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nopoet.2960 Posted February 11, 2021 Share Posted February 11, 2021 Baring the discussion of whether or not a their should be an extra tier of runes and sigils. I'd like to offer an idea if it were to happen. Jewelers would make the upgraded runes/sigil. Runes have the exact same stats except there would be a seventh bonus. The seventh bonus requires you to 'consume' an exotic rune. You then get that rune's 6th bonus (maybe in minor form). It's a long term buff but not permanent, something like 8 hours of playtime. You would then have to 'consume' another rune to get the seventh bonus again. Sigils could work the same way gaining an additional minor effect base on the sigil you sacrificed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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