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Anet: Stop punishing players for the kittenfest your matching system produces.


Xentera.4560

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@Bazsi.2734 said:

@Xentera.4560 said:There should be no reason why I get every top stat in my team, and yet my team loses the match 500:499 because the match up was kitten. And then I have to pay for what the matching system did by losing 18 rank points. Any one with half a brain can see this is a kitten system all together.Either fix your matching system, or stop rank point penalties for losing. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that.

/endrant

So you don't want to get punished because you're the best player in that matchup? What?

Shocking concept isn't it?

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@Xentera.4560 said:And losing a match does not make u lose rank points in any of the other big 5 MMO’s or in GW2’s predecessor, GW1. I fail to see how 2 MOBA’s deducting points from you for losing is even relevant to this discussion.

I don't care enough about MMR in GW2 or other games to know for sure, but from what I've heard it's fairly typical for ranked systems to penalize losses (as opposed to merely not rewarding losses). Also, I believe it's relevant to talk about any competitive game mode's ranking system, as the underlying game itself isn't what we're debating - it's about how that game treats losses in ranked.

That being said, I agree that in the current state of affairs something should be done. The low population is further exacerbated by the fact that you lose 20+ points per loss while only gaining 3-4 points for a win. Even at low plat, it quickly becomes not worth queuing after playing if you're looking to keep your badge and rating. So on top of diminished population in general, those who still play ranked are greatly incentivized to queue less.

As for titles... I've never seen it this bad lol. Last I saw this season I think gold 3 or even gold 2 was enough for top 250 in NA. I remember needing to push to stay above 1600 to get Merciless Legend back when I still queued ranked.

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@Eddbopkins.2630 said:Im a g1 player this season. I got placed against grimjack last night whos like top 30 this season. And the next game i get zyn who usually also in the top 20-30 on my team. Imo the match maker doesn't work at all.

Yea this kind of mm is really not ok. I get g3 players getting paired with p1s, even though there is some skill disparity there (for true g3 players, not p1's who have fallen due to bad matchmaking). But p2s (who are pretty much always duo with another p2) vs g1? I can pretty much 1v3 g1's, there's no way that kind of pairing should ever happen. Not fun for anyone.

I try to specifically queue at peak times to ensure games feel fair, off peak games are rarely fun. A stomp fest one way or another.

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Coming from league, this is just how team games work. Your rating isn't a measure of how mechanically skilled you are in comparison to everyone else. It's a measure of how skilled you are and how capable you are at working as a team. A great player can win their 1v1's and occasional 1v2s, consistently grab most top stats, and know when and where they should rotate under ideal scenarios.

The best players know how to do all of that while also adapting to 4 other unpredictabale players on their team. This means keeping your cool and making the best of a bad situation when someone inevitably spawns and runs mid into a 1v4 and dies. This means not wasting precious mental energy that could be spent strategizing on critiquing the gameplay of your warrior who's losing sides to a build he should counter.

...Of course all of this falls flat when Anet allows bots and wintrades to exist.

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@Xentera.4560 said:

@Xentera.4560 said:There should be no reason why I get every top stat in my team, and yet my team loses the match 500:499 because the match up was kitten. And then I have to pay for what the matching system did by losing 18 rank points. Any one with half a brain can see this is a kitten system all together.Either fix your matching system, or stop rank point penalties for losing. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that.

/endrant

So you don't want to get punished because you're the best player in that matchup? What?

Shocking concept isn't it?

The shocking part is that you'd suggest something like this with a straight face. This feels like a rich person lobbying for tax exemption..."My gardener payed 20K in taxes this year, why do I have to pay 10 times as much? We should both be paying 20K, aren't we equals as humans?"

My point is if you're the best player in the swamp of baddies, you are meant to hard carry your matches. There are not enough opponents on your level, so you're put in matches several tiers below you. And to average things out, the best and the worst likely gets in the same team. This is what it's like to be a high rated player in a dying PvP scene.

I'm not saying it's good that things turned out this way, but there is 0% chance for any of this to change so there is no point of making entitled demands at this company. They are working on EoD and they don't seem to have time to care about things like PvP.

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@Bazsi.2734 said:

@Xentera.4560 said:There should be no reason why I get every top stat in my team, and yet my team loses the match 500:499 because the match up was kitten. And then I have to pay for what the matching system did by losing 18 rank points. Any one with half a brain can see this is a kitten system all together.Either fix your matching system, or stop rank point penalties for losing. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that.

/endrant

So you don't want to get punished because you're the best player in that matchup? What?

Shocking concept isn't it?

The shocking part is that you'd suggest something like this with a straight face. This feels like a rich person lobbying for tax exemption..."My gardener payed 20K in taxes this year, why do I have to pay 10 times as much? We should both be paying 20K, aren't we equals as humans?"

My point is if you're the best player in the swamp of baddies, you are meant to hard carry your matches. There are not enough opponents on your level, so you're put in matches several tiers below you. And to average things out, the best and the worst likely gets in the same team. This is what it's like to be a high rated player in a dying PvP scene.

I'm not saying it's good that things turned out this way, but there is 0% chance for any of this to change so there is no point of making entitled demands at this company. They are working on EoD and they don't seem to have time to care about things like PvP.

You have five players on the a team. There will always be someone who is the best whether they're all terrible or not. Besides what one thinks makes them the best may in fact be false as they could have not contributed as much towards winning the match as others.

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@Bazsi.2734 said:

@Xentera.4560 said:There should be no reason why I get every top stat in my team, and yet my team loses the match 500:499 because the match up was kitten. And then I have to pay for what the matching system did by losing 18 rank points. Any one with half a brain can see this is a kitten system all together.Either fix your matching system, or stop rank point penalties for losing. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that.

/endrant

So you don't want to get punished because you're the best player in that matchup? What?

Shocking concept isn't it?

The shocking part is that you'd suggest something like this with a straight face. This feels like a rich person lobbying for tax exemption..."My gardener payed 20K in taxes this year, why do I have to pay 10 times as much? We should both be paying 20K, aren't we equals as humans?"

The only shocking part I see is fanbois defending a clearly flawed system that’s driving players away, and justifying it by the “work” being done on EoD.

Also, you were misinformed on how a flat tax rate works.

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@Xentera.4560 said:

@Xentera.4560 said:There should be no reason why I get every top stat in my team, and yet my team loses the match 500:499 because the match up was kitten. And then I have to pay for what the matching system did by losing 18 rank points. Any one with half a brain can see this is a kitten system all together.Either fix your matching system, or stop rank point penalties for losing. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that.

/endrant

So you don't want to get punished because you're the best player in that matchup? What?

Shocking concept isn't it?

The shocking part is that you'd suggest something like this with a straight face. This feels like a rich person lobbying for tax exemption..."My gardener payed 20K in taxes this year, why do I have to pay 10 times as much? We should both be paying 20K, aren't we equals as humans?"

The only shocking part I see is fanbois defending a clearly flawed system that’s driving players away, and justifying it by the “work” being done on EoD.

Also, you were misinformed on how a flat tax rate works.

I was always fascinated by people who think that mentioning an objective fact means agreement or endorsement. They are working on a new X-pac and are neglecting everything else because of it... how do we get from here to "and I think its okay that they are doing so"?I'm pretty sure you're aware you're making straw man, so why are you doing this?

About the original rant, the "problems" of the system: I've seen none of which can't be explained by low population. Platinum players being put into high silver/low gold matches after 6-7 minutes of waiting is not something that can be fixed with your suggestion.

Also it would just create a way to minimalise your losses even though you're throwing the game. Farming top offense/damage/healing is pretty easy if you tunnel-vision the enemy support on mid. You're absolutely useless, but you'll have 3+ topstats at the end if you manage not to die a lot.

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Defending a flawed system doesn’t necessarily mean you agree with it. You are putting words in my mouth there which is the definition of the straw man fallacy. Now that’s an objective fact.

Having the system as is will continue to drive players away ( as evident by how low the current population is), and would make the already very low pvp population problem even worse. How is preventing further decline in the population not helpful?

And yes I’ll take long queue times over faster one sided matches any day.

Final thought: if the top stats are so worthless and yet they announce them at the end of each match and make them part of the dailies, then they need to rework what constitutes top stats.

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@"Xentera.4560" said:Defending a flawed system doesn’t necessarily mean you agree with it. You are putting words in my mouth there which is the definition of the straw man fallacy. Now that’s an objective fact.

What I wrote is just rephrasing of what you've said. You tagged my comment then talked about "fanboys defending a flawed system". You conveniently do not tag what you're answering to now, but I get it, shifting the goalposts is hard work. Obviously you don't want those contradicitons right next to each other.

Having the system as is will continue to drive players away ( as evident by how low the current population is), and would make the already very low pvp population problem even worse. How is preventing further decline in the population not helpful?

Preventing further decline would be nice. Now only if you'd present something that would do that!

And yes I’ll take long queue times over faster one sided matches any day.

Most of us wouldn't. If the queue becomes too long I'm just not going to bother. 6-7 minutes is already pushing it. I'm here to play, not to wait.

Final thought: if the top stats are so worthless and yet they announce them at the end of each match and make them part of the dailies, then they need to rework what constitutes top stats.

The topstats are just there for those who like statistics. Things like healing yourself after making a mistake can be measured, kiting and not taking said damage can't. If you want to base any mechanic (like a rating loss dampener) around topstats, at first you'd have to suggest some metrics to be measured that do correlate with contribution to your teams victory. There were numerous attempts to come up with something, you could be first to succeed.

This is how your OP looked to me at first read: "I don't wanna lose rating for losing matches REEEEEE". And guess what, after engaging with you for a while it still looks like that. You can rant and let the steam out without suggesting things that would ruin the gamemode.

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@Stand The Wall.6987 said:you know what would be cool, is if they introduced mechanics into the algorithm that attempted to balance things out. one example is that if you go on a 5 game losing streak, you get a team next match that is slightly biased for you to win. not by much, and possibly increase it each game after. same thing but reverse if you go on winning streaks. they might already do this idk. people mention top stats often, although they don't mean much in reality most times. that said, i don't think it would be too much of a big deal if you are set to lose -15 or over, for every top stat you get this goes down by one.

i'm sure there are other examples, but the point is to create a more level playing field without too much hand holding.

You'll be the victim of that system as often as you benefit from it. The current system already accounts for this by utilizing your rating. That is to say that if you drop 20 rating points, there is now a slight bias in the calculation favoring a less difficult matchup for you relative to your previously higher rating. If you go on a big losing streak you will inevitably begin to see more favorable matchups.

The issue is low population. You aren't getting good matches because there are nowhere near enough people available in each rating tier to make that consistently possible. What you suggest isn't feasible and it also doesn't address the underlying issue.

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@Bazsi.2734 said:

@"Xentera.4560" said:Defending a flawed system doesn’t necessarily mean you agree with it. You are putting words in my mouth there which is the definition of the straw man fallacy. Now that’s an objective fact.

What I wrote is just rephrasing of what you've said. You tagged my comment then talked about "fanboys defending a flawed system". You conveniently do not tag what you're answering to now, but I get it, shifting the goalposts is hard work. Obviously you don't want those contradicitons right next to each other.

Having the system as is will continue to drive players away ( as evident by how low the current population is), and would make the already very low pvp population problem even worse. How is preventing further decline in the population not helpful?

Preventing further decline would be nice. Now only if you'd present something that would do that!

And yes I’ll take long queue times over faster one sided matches any day.

Most of us wouldn't. If the queue becomes too long I'm just not going to bother. 6-7 minutes is already pushing it. I'm here to play, not to wait.

Final thought: if the top stats are so worthless and yet they announce them at the end of each match and make them part of the dailies, then they need to rework what constitutes top stats.

The topstats are just there for those who like statistics. Things like healing yourself after making a mistake can be measured, kiting and not taking said damage can't. If you want to base any mechanic (like a rating loss dampener) around topstats, at first you'd have to suggest some metrics to be measured that do correlate with contribution to your teams victory. There were numerous attempts to come up with something, you could be first to succeed.

This is how your OP looked to me at first read: "I don't wanna lose rating for losing matches REEEEEE". And guess what, after engaging with you for a while it still looks like that. You can rant and let the steam out without suggesting things that would ruin the gamemode.

Simple English continues to be a struggle for you. Defending a system doesn’t mean you’re agreeing with it. Just benefiting from it. Try not to “rephrase“ what I say in the future.

And fixing what’s causing major frustration among the PVP population to the degree they are quitting the game is what I suggested as a solution to the small PVP population problem. Maybe you should give it a moment to sink in.

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@Xentera.4560 said:

@Xentera.4560 said:Defending a flawed system doesn’t necessarily mean you agree with it. You are putting words in my mouth there which is the definition of the straw man fallacy. Now that’s an objective fact.

What I wrote is just rephrasing of what you've said. You tagged my comment then talked about "fanboys defending a flawed system". You conveniently do not tag what you're answering to now, but I get it, shifting the goalposts is hard work. Obviously you don't want those contradicitons right next to each other.

Having the system as is will continue to drive players away ( as evident by how low the current population is), and would make the already very low pvp population problem even worse. How is preventing further decline in the population not helpful?

Preventing further decline would be nice. Now only if you'd present something that would do that!

And yes I’ll take long queue times over faster one sided matches any day.

Most of us wouldn't. If the queue becomes too long I'm just not going to bother. 6-7 minutes is already pushing it. I'm here to play, not to wait.

Final thought: if the top stats are so worthless and yet they announce them at the end of each match and make them part of the dailies, then they need to rework what constitutes top stats.

The topstats are just there for those who like statistics. Things like healing yourself after making a mistake can be measured, kiting and not taking said damage can't. If you want to base any mechanic (like a rating loss dampener) around topstats, at first you'd have to suggest some metrics to be measured that do correlate with contribution to your teams victory. There were numerous attempts to come up with something, you could be first to succeed.

This is how your OP looked to me at first read: "I don't wanna lose rating for losing matches REEEEEE". And guess what, after engaging with you for a while it still looks like that. You can rant and let the steam out without suggesting things that would ruin the gamemode.

Simple English continues to be a struggle for you. Defending a system doesn’t mean you’re agreeing with it. Just benefiting from it. Try not to “rephrase“ what I say in the future.

As if there is a way to benefit from the current matchmaking... mind you I'm plat 2 who's forced to hardcarry and have a surreal winrate to climb any further. Your simple english is indeed "continues to be a struggle" for me.

And fixing what’s causing major frustration among the PVP population to the degree they are quitting the game is what I suggested as a solution to the small PVP population problem. Maybe you should give it a moment to sink in.

Maybe that was your intention, but as I detailed it above, it's easy to get most topstats while throwing the game. Therefore your suggestion can not work. Maybe give it a moment to sink in.

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@Bazsi.2734 said:

@Xentera.4560 said:Defending a flawed system doesn’t necessarily mean you agree with it. You are putting words in my mouth there which is the definition of the straw man fallacy. Now that’s an objective fact.

What I wrote is just rephrasing of what you've said. You tagged my comment then talked about "fanboys defending a flawed system". You conveniently do not tag what you're answering to now, but I get it, shifting the goalposts is hard work. Obviously you don't want those contradicitons right next to each other.

Having the system as is will continue to drive players away ( as evident by how low the current population is), and would make the already very low pvp population problem even worse. How is preventing further decline in the population not helpful?

Preventing further decline would be nice. Now only if you'd present something that would do that!

And yes I’ll take long queue times over faster one sided matches any day.

Most of us wouldn't. If the queue becomes too long I'm just not going to bother. 6-7 minutes is already pushing it. I'm here to play, not to wait.

Final thought: if the top stats are so worthless and yet they announce them at the end of each match and make them part of the dailies, then they need to rework what constitutes top stats.

The topstats are just there for those who like statistics. Things like healing yourself after making a mistake can be measured, kiting and not taking said damage can't. If you want to base any mechanic (like a rating loss dampener) around topstats, at first you'd have to suggest some metrics to be measured that do correlate with contribution to your teams victory. There were numerous attempts to come up with something, you could be first to succeed.

This is how your OP looked to me at first read: "I don't wanna lose rating for losing matches REEEEEE". And guess what, after engaging with you for a while it still looks like that. You can rant and let the steam out without suggesting things that would ruin the gamemode.

Simple English continues to be a struggle for you. Defending a system doesn’t mean you’re agreeing with it. Just benefiting from it. Try not to “rephrase“ what I say in the future.

As if there is a way to benefit from the current matchmaking... mind you I'm plat 2 who's forced to hardcarry and have a surreal winrate to climb any further. Your simple english is indeed "continues to be a struggle" for me.

And fixing what’s causing major frustration among the PVP population to the degree they are quitting the game is what I suggested as a solution to the small PVP population problem. Maybe you should give it a moment to sink in.

Maybe that was your intention, but as I detailed it above, it's easy to get most topstats while throwing the game. Therefore your suggestion can not work. Maybe give it a moment to sink in.

Again, you avoid responding to the point that you misquoted me to create a strawman defense. Defending a system does not mean agreeing with it. And you gave no valid argument against why reducing player frustration to retain a bigger PvP population is not going to work. The current system literally discourages people from playing out of fear they may lose an ungodly amount of rank points if the MMR decides to put them in the wrong team.

Unless you have an actual counter point to make, you should probably give it a rest.

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@Xentera.4560 said:

@Xentera.4560 said:Defending a flawed system doesn’t necessarily mean you agree with it. You are putting words in my mouth there which is the definition of the straw man fallacy. Now that’s an objective fact.

What I wrote is just rephrasing of what you've said. You tagged my comment then talked about "fanboys defending a flawed system". You conveniently do not tag what you're answering to now, but I get it, shifting the goalposts is hard work. Obviously you don't want those contradicitons right next to each other.

Having the system as is will continue to drive players away ( as evident by how low the current population is), and would make the already very low pvp population problem even worse. How is preventing further decline in the population not helpful?

Preventing further decline would be nice. Now only if you'd present something that would do that!

And yes I’ll take long queue times over faster one sided matches any day.

Most of us wouldn't. If the queue becomes too long I'm just not going to bother. 6-7 minutes is already pushing it. I'm here to play, not to wait.

Final thought: if the top stats are so worthless and yet they announce them at the end of each match and make them part of the dailies, then they need to rework what constitutes top stats.

The topstats are just there for those who like statistics. Things like healing yourself after making a mistake can be measured, kiting and not taking said damage can't. If you want to base any mechanic (like a rating loss dampener) around topstats, at first you'd have to suggest some metrics to be measured that do correlate with contribution to your teams victory. There were numerous attempts to come up with something, you could be first to succeed.

This is how your OP looked to me at first read: "I don't wanna lose rating for losing matches REEEEEE". And guess what, after engaging with you for a while it still looks like that. You can rant and let the steam out without suggesting things that would ruin the gamemode.

Simple English continues to be a struggle for you. Defending a system doesn’t mean you’re agreeing with it. Just benefiting from it. Try not to “rephrase“ what I say in the future.

As if there is a way to benefit from the current matchmaking... mind you I'm plat 2 who's forced to hardcarry and have a surreal winrate to climb any further. Your simple english is indeed "continues to be a struggle" for me.

And fixing what’s causing major frustration among the PVP population to the degree they are quitting the game is what I suggested as a solution to the small PVP population problem. Maybe you should give it a moment to sink in.

Maybe that was your intention, but as I detailed it above, it's easy to get most topstats while throwing the game. Therefore your suggestion can not work. Maybe give it a moment to sink in.

Again, you avoid responding to the point that you misquoted me to create a strawman defense. Defending a system does not mean agreeing with it.

You can hardly be a "fanboy" of something you disagree with. I mean... maybe YOU can, I can't. You're not making sense here. Just admit you misspoke lol.

And you gave no valid argument against why reducing player frustration to retain a bigger PvP population is not going to work.

We were talking about your suggestion, not reducing player frustration. Why would I be against reducing player frustration?Soon you'll have enough strawmen to keep local crops safe just on your own.

The current system literally discourages people from playing out of fear they may lose an ungodly amount of rank points if the MMR decides to put them in the wrong team.

Yes, that harsh punishment is what supposed to motivate you not to lose. If you are actually demotivated by that, there are many other things you can do with your time.I myself are not getting 120 games in during ranked seasons lately either. Lack of players or balance patches make the game unappealing.

Unless you have an actual counter point to make, you should probably give it a rest.

Whatever you do, do not scroll back, do not read the previous posts I've made. Because then you saying this would look really silly.I mean what can I do, after making my point you just go "you made no point though"... I'm not going to type it out again. If you actually want to engage with it, it's there. Was fun talking to you, gonna stop responding to this though.

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